JD2411 said: why do they not have the right to register for selection service in the US? why is circumcision for males legal yet it's illegal to do anything to the female genitalia like circumcision? and why do they not campaign for these equal rights? And then there's not just ignoring of male rights but putting them down, remember the whole armed forces have to wear high heels fiasco to raise awareness how hard women have it. How hard women have it......by making an example of soldiers....how hard...soldi- ugh. |
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MaiTai said: Can you post the study that proves this? I am curious. I have yet to see a legitimate study that has taken a large sample, has made sure to factor out all relevant factors when it comes to pay (age / time spent at company / hours worked on average / number of days taken off / occupation (this includes standardizing occupation titles by company, i.e. a secretary of a hair salon =/= secretary of a multi-billion dollar corporation / requests for raises (yes this is relevant, in most salary jobs they will lowball your wage, men are over 2 times more likely than women to request a raise / marital status / etc.). The two studies I have seen with such a wide scale was a government study that found that the average women makes .77 of what the average man makes (this has been misquoted a thousand and one times as "the average women makes .77 of what the average women makes in the same exact job, however the study purely looked at average annual wages, it did not take into account wages based on occupation / time spent working / etc.) and then a second study (done by the same group) which found that women get paid .95 of what men get, however this study (while including same occupation / etc.) still did not find a way to factor in the fact that men request raises more frequently than women (and as crappy as this sounds, being aggressive in the workplace is typically necessary since companies will cut costs wherever they can).JD2411 said: It's beyond me how anyone can still believe this Baelish said: Oh jezz this again, wheres noobs page of argument against feminism when you need it. The one with all those links. It's true. I have no want or need to debate about this, but it is what it is. I'm not saying EVERY woman is paid less that EVERY man on the same level, but it happens more often than it does the other way around. Odd how this was the only sentence pulled from my post that is mostly against other females putting down women than men lol. In short, the .77 statistic is most likely true, however it DOES NOT interpret to "for the same work". This is NOT what the statistic is looking at, and since it came out feminists have misquoted this statistic a thousand times. It is ILLEGAL to pay workers less based on gender or race. Furthermore, think of this from the perspective of CEO's, if women really did get paid .77 of what men get for the same work, why would they hire men? CHEAPER LABOR IS ALWAYS SOUGHT AFTER. You can "believe" it is true all you want, but I will ask for proof, because I have yet to see a study (conducted by upholding an academic format, i.e. random questionnaires online don't count) verifying this. All this lie does is ingrain in younger women that regardless of how hard they work, they will get jipped because of their gender. This is untrue, and because it is untrue there is no way to fix it. You can't pass a law saying that men should get paid less for the same work or that women should get paid more for the same work (this directly conflicts with one of feminism's few notable achievements, ERA) so it cannot be fixed through legislation. Therefore the only other option is to force women to A) Take less vacations (they take on average 21 more days off than men a year) B) Stop having kids (it screws your career having kids, the solution to this one is have more men assume the primary role of child rearing, albeit this is actually an agreeable solution, although "enforcing it" not so much), C) Force women into higher paying fields, women should be barred from doing things like become teachers, furthermore women should be shooed out of social / humanity / customer service related fields, these just simply aren't as profitable as Scientific / Business / etc. fields. However if this solution seems too extreme, THEN STOP SAYING IT. Why? This just enforces a notion that women are valued less and nobody is doing anything to fix it (after all it isn't being fixed). What does this mean? It instills a sense of worthlessness / hopelessness in the younger generation that isn't there. That is twisted. It is twisted to tell kids that they are screwed when they really aren't. It would be one thing if they were, then they could rise up to face it and overcome it, but in this instance they can't because it isn't there. Now, before you comment, I should note that the wage gap IS shrinking, more women are pursuing STEM fields and the number of college graduates are now in favor of women however it isn't a fast process. Why? There are a million reasons why, but just "forcing change" literally means forcing people to stop what they are doing and go down another career path. That isn't something people swallow too easily. So the current method has been encouraging women to go into STEM fields, and it's working, why deny the hard work people are doing? |
Pirating_NinjaMay 29, 2015 4:04 PM
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| Yes it is still needed there is still a lot of sexism that needs to be sorted out! goatkage said: Red_Keys said: I don't think feminism was ever needed. Youre a dick. |
tayorous said: Why?goatkage said: Youre a dick. |
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| It's not needed in the west. It is needed in Africa, the ME and parts of Asia and SA. |
MaiTai said: Well...in America, women with the same qualifications and capacity get paid less on the dollar than men. |
| egalitarianism if possible should be applied to feminism, however In current situation it's cancer and must be removed in society immediately. |
TheGoldenLionMay 29, 2015 6:32 PM
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| Still needed, you ask? It was never needed to begin with. |
| Feminism (the modern movement at least) is built upon exaggerations, outright lies, hypocrisy, and emotion. It's a borderline cult by this point. A tired parody of its original intent. |
| If you think that feminism should no longer exist, then I don't think you understand the ramifications of abandoning an entire worldview. You wouldn't just be saying that feminism is no longer needed now, or no longer needed in the past- the problem is you would be assuming it will never become necessary in the future. That is something no-one can be certain about, and to that end I say feminism must always exist. Quite apart from that there is a difference between saying something has the right to exist, and saying it is right. I believe fascism also has a right to exist, even though I do not agree with it. RyanEnsign said: It's not needed in the west. It is needed in Africa, the ME and parts of Asia and SA. So there will be an intellectual gulf where feminism does not exist, and that will be in those areas where academia and learning is most widespread? Ha. Baelish said: Jotaro-kun said: I'm a feminist, in the sense I believe in equal rights for both females and males. so why are you a feminist, I don't even see mens equal representation in the title. Feminism was always about the rights of women but now they've adopted the saying its for both genders but haven't bothered changing the title even though its contradictory to this 'new' message because the movement refuses to adapt with the changes in their society. The idea they fight for male rights is tacked on and an afterthought with no real bearing in their movement. To the point they won't even change the title to include men. Feminism is about making women equal. But equal to whom? There's your answer. |
AnnoKanoMay 29, 2015 7:25 PM
| Losing an Argument online? Simply post a webpage full of links, and refuse to continue until your opponents have read every last one of them! WORKS EVERY TIME! "I was debating with someone who believed in climate change, when he linked me to a graph showing evidence to that effect. So I sent him a 10k word essay on the origins of Conservatism, and escaped with my dignity intact." "THANK YOU VERBOSE WEBPAGES OF QUESTIONABLE RELEVANCE!" |
AnnoKano said: If it will become necessary in the future then pick it up then. It did jack shit in the past too, anyway. Right now it's cancer and pretty much harmful.the problem is you would be assuming it will never become necessary in the future. AnnoKano said: It's too bad you're trivializing this whole matter.Feminism is about making women equal. But equal to whom? There's your answer. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| Top kek |
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AnnoKano said: Women are disadvantaged in comparison to men under feminist definition by default. It is feminism that stated that, not reality.Feminism is about making women equal. But equal to whom? There's your answer. Using that definition as a defense for the necessity of feminism is like saying that because Nazi ideology stated that the German population was at a disadvantage to the Jews, it must be true and Nazism is needed. |
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| No. Although I know not all feminists are crazy, the crazy ones are the ones currently leading the movement and they seem to be giving first world problems waaay too much importance. Egalitarianism may be more useful these days but the advocates for that one quite easy to provocate and nobody takes them seriously. |
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Immahnoob said: AnnoKano said: If it will become necessary in the future then pick it up then. It did jack shit in the past too, anyway. Right now it's cancer and pretty much harmful.the problem is you would be assuming it will never become necessary in the future. My point was there is a distinction between feminism as a movement, and as an ideology. Surely saying the ideology shouldn't exist is censorship? |
| Losing an Argument online? Simply post a webpage full of links, and refuse to continue until your opponents have read every last one of them! WORKS EVERY TIME! "I was debating with someone who believed in climate change, when he linked me to a graph showing evidence to that effect. So I sent him a 10k word essay on the origins of Conservatism, and escaped with my dignity intact." "THANK YOU VERBOSE WEBPAGES OF QUESTIONABLE RELEVANCE!" |
AnnoKano said: I don't think anybody is arguing that feminist ideology shouldn't exist. Just that it shouldn't have any legitimacy.Immahnoob said: If it will become necessary in the future then pick it up then. It did jack shit in the past too, anyway. Right now it's cancer and pretty much harmful. My point was there is a distinction between feminism as a movement, and as an ideology. Surely saying the ideology shouldn't exist is censorship? |
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| masculinism may be needed nowadays |
Red_Keys said: AnnoKano said: Women are disadvantaged in comparison to men under feminist definition by default. It is feminism that stated that, not reality.Feminism is about making women equal. But equal to whom? There's your answer. Using that definition as a defense for the necessity of feminism is like saying that because Nazi ideology stated that the German population was at a disadvantage to the Jews, it must be true and Nazism is needed. People often make the argument that feminism is only concerned with women's rights, or the equality of women. In my view, feminism is about equality. At least, that is the form of feminism I embrace. I think it is one which many other people share too. If we assume there are only two genders, making women equal to men makes men equal to women by default. It really is that simple. If you want to dispute whether or not feminism achieves that goal, or whether that really is the goal of feminism, then fine. I don't even know to start pointing out the flaws in your analogy. Your contention seems to be that feminism and nazism both assume their premises are true. Indeed that is so, but how could that possibly be avoided? Secondly if there is evidence to back up either claim, then what difference does it make? |
| Losing an Argument online? Simply post a webpage full of links, and refuse to continue until your opponents have read every last one of them! WORKS EVERY TIME! "I was debating with someone who believed in climate change, when he linked me to a graph showing evidence to that effect. So I sent him a 10k word essay on the origins of Conservatism, and escaped with my dignity intact." "THANK YOU VERBOSE WEBPAGES OF QUESTIONABLE RELEVANCE!" |
| Feminism is still needed in some part of the countries like India.In those countries,there's always a case for rape and all so people really need to change their opinions and thoughts about women.Women should be free and respected as a man.Man should realise that women are also capable of doing jobs,services which are served by man.Equality is a must.Most men should control their hormones as well. |
SaberforlifeMay 29, 2015 8:32 PM
Red_Keys said: AnnoKano said: I don't think anybody is arguing that feminist ideology shouldn't exist. Just that it shouldn't have any legitimacy.My point was there is a distinction between feminism as a movement, and as an ideology. Surely saying the ideology shouldn't exist is censorship? Yet there are people saying it should be taken seriously in some parts of the world; how can that be possible? |
| Losing an Argument online? Simply post a webpage full of links, and refuse to continue until your opponents have read every last one of them! WORKS EVERY TIME! "I was debating with someone who believed in climate change, when he linked me to a graph showing evidence to that effect. So I sent him a 10k word essay on the origins of Conservatism, and escaped with my dignity intact." "THANK YOU VERBOSE WEBPAGES OF QUESTIONABLE RELEVANCE!" |
| I think I misunderstood your intent with this comment: AnnoKano said: Feminism is about making women equal. But equal to whom? There's your answer. |
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AnnoKano said: They believe the lie that feminism has a monopoly on advocacy for gender equality, I guess, and are committing the same flaw that feminists commit by looking at things only from a surface-level perspective on how things are for women.Yet there are people saying it should be taken seriously in some parts of the world; how can that be possible? I don't really get the point of this question. |
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Red_Keys said: AnnoKano said: They believe the lie that feminism has a monopoly on advocacy for gender equality, I guess.Yet there are people saying it should be taken seriously in some parts of the world; how can that be possible? I don't really get the point of this question. Well, I take the view that support for gender equality is feminism, whether or not the individual considers themselves a feminist. But the question is how someone can say feminism is needed in part of the world while saying it is illegitimate elsewhere? The ideology is either discredited or it's not. Could it be that the problem is not with the ideology itself, but the arguments put forward by some of its supporters? |
| Losing an Argument online? Simply post a webpage full of links, and refuse to continue until your opponents have read every last one of them! WORKS EVERY TIME! "I was debating with someone who believed in climate change, when he linked me to a graph showing evidence to that effect. So I sent him a 10k word essay on the origins of Conservatism, and escaped with my dignity intact." "THANK YOU VERBOSE WEBPAGES OF QUESTIONABLE RELEVANCE!" |
AnnoKano said: If you believe feminism is "equality between the sexes" and that's the end of it, then I would be a feminist too. But, well, that's not exactly reality. Feminism is an entire school of thought. It is a lens in which the world is viewed through. And most importantly it comes from a context of primarily female advocacy: implying that women are at an inherent disadvantage, and need to be "brought up" to be equal to men. Feminism by definition assumes that women are "worse off" than men, and then works from there to solve that problem. That is why it is inherently flawed.Red_Keys said: They believe the lie that feminism has a monopoly on advocacy for gender equality, I guess. I don't really get the point of this question. Well, I take the view that support for gender equality is feminism, whether or not the individual considers themselves a feminist. But the question is how someone can say feminism is needed in part of the world while saying it is illegitimate elsewhere? The ideology is either discredited or it's not. Could it be that the problem is not with the ideology itself, but the arguments put forward by some of its supporters? And I don't think people are talking about ideology in that context, but rather a tangible political movement. AnnoKano said: What is an ideology if not a series of arguments put forth by those that believe in it?Could it be that the problem is not with the ideology itself, but the arguments put forward by some of its supporters? |
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clintonmadara said: Most men should control their hormones as well. |
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| Feminism nowadays has been hijacked by the loonies, e.g. the most unrealistic stuff you would read on tumblr. |
teruu said: Nicoreos said: In India it's really needed. It's pretty interesting because India probably has the highest rape cases yet no one bothers with the feminism crap. I will just leave it here.Believing in everything being documented by the media doesn't equate to stating facts.The truth is closer to home. Highest rape crime listed in a country This one is the 2 years older one.. Older version |
laidellentMay 29, 2015 10:40 PM
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laidellent said: teruu said: It's pretty interesting because India probably has the highest rape cases yet no one bothers with the feminism crap. I will just leave it here. Highhest rape crime listed in a country I thought it will be US. Lol.....no. 1 in everything |
| I totally identify as a feminist! And by my understanding, even though feminism is ABOUT women, it isn't just FOR women. It's for men who have been victimized, but feel like they can't talk about their experiences because of the fear that they'll be ridiculed by a misogynistic society. It's for the victims on the receiving end of rape jokes. It's for equal pay, it's for having the right to dress how you want to, minus the slut-shaming, it's for eliminating the consistent fear of assault from men that has been ingrained into every young girls mind. Feminism is about standing up for equal rights in every aspect, for everybody. From government to media to simply demanding common decency from others. I think that anyone who thinks feminism is unnecessary simply needs to google horrifying rape statistics, or hate crimes against the LGTB community, or the difference between a women's dollar to a man's in the US, to see how necessary it really is. |
 dis gonna be fun |
|
teruu said: Nicoreos said: In India it's really needed. And you would know this because? It doesn't make sense when people like you post that the media is full of bullshit and continue believing it. I don't see women in India complaining about feminism so why should I, or anyone else care? It's pretty interesting because India probably has the highest rape cases yet no one bothers with the feminism crap. Wanna know why? Cuz it's a 3rd world country and has tons of other stuff to worry about than feminism. USA and UK has higher rape crime ratio compared to India, some people just gonna be ignorant. |
Baelish said: Oy, we should start taking that male pill then.clintonmadara said: Most men should control their hormones as well. |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
AnnoKano said: Yes, I argue the first part. Feminism is only for the benefit of the female sex, majorly at least.People often make the argument that feminism is only concerned with women's rights, or the equality of women. AnnoKano said: Yeah, the minority embrace it.In my view, feminism is about equality. At least, that is the form of feminism I embrace. I think it is one which many other people share too. AnnoKano said: And I'm saying you're simplifying things. Women and men can't really be equal, it would be impossible for both.If we assume there are only two genders, making women equal to men makes men equal to women by default. AnnoKano said: You're strawmanning this conversation actually. It really is that simple. If you want to dispute whether or not feminism achieves that goal, or whether that really is the goal of feminism, then fine. AnnoKano said: Well, it's probably because you can't point out flaws in a good analogy then. I don't even know to start pointing out the flaws in your analogy. AnnoKano said: I don't know, through facts?Your contention seems to be that feminism and nazism both assume their premises are true. Indeed that is so, but how could that possibly be avoided? AnnoKano said: What the fuck are you asking here?Secondly if there is evidence to back up either claim, then what difference does it make? Anyway, it's like you didn't see my incomplete (yet still good), argument against feminism. Feminism is utter bullshit and unneeded in the first world. laidellent said: I'm sorry, but I've checked the stats I know the best, the US ones, and that site already talks out of its ass.Highest rape crime listed in a country Good job on regurgitating feminist bullshit. Inferno_Cop said: What.USA and UK has higher rape crime ratio compared to India, some people just gonna be ignorant. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Inferno_Cop said: teruu said: And you would know this because? It doesn't make sense when people like you post that the media is full of bullshit and continue believing it. I don't see women in India complaining about feminism so why should I, or anyone else care? It's pretty interesting because India probably has the highest rape cases yet no one bothers with the feminism crap. Wanna know why? Cuz it's a 3rd world country and has tons of other stuff to worry about than feminism. USA and UK has higher rape crime ratio compared to India, some people just gonna be ignorant. And that doesn't mean that India doesn't have one of the highest rape cases. |
| Hello |
| Feminism is needed as long as there's significant inequalities between men and women. In the US iirc women only get 75% of pay that men get. So yes, feminism is needed to raise awareness and protest against these issues. |
Olwen said: Care to give us evidence of that? In the US iirc women only get 75% of pay that men get. (Because all evidence is against that claim, m8.) |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| The problem is a deeper one than can be simply traced to feminism. It's the endless and dogmatic pursuit of (enforced) 'equality' that harms society. If being a better person won't reap you a tangible reward, then where does your motivation to improve come from? |
| Now you're wondering if there's white text in any of my other posts. Over there, I'm everywhere. I know that. |
Immahnoob said: Olwen said: Care to give us evidence of that? In the US iirc women only get 75% of pay that men get. (Because all evidence is against that claim, m8.) I was expecting you to ask for evidence LOL. https://www.whitehouse.gov/equal-pay/myth#top http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/ In 2013, among full-time, year-round workers, women were paid 78 percent of what men were paid. |
OlwenMay 30, 2015 5:09 AM
| I was expecting you to be a fool, but not at this level: Immahnoob said: Like the pay gap: I guess everyone knows the myth of the 77 cents, right? Well, we know it's just that, a myth. Let's start with basic factos, shall we? Women are half the working force of the US. Women tend to work in the public sector more than the private sector. And there's a big difference between earnings in private and public sectors. These are not statistics from the US, but the UK this time, nonetheless, these things tend to coincide with small margins of error. Women also do more part-time than men. Which implies working less, thus, earning less. Another issue that most women have is leaving work because of pregnancy. Mother nature is a cruel mistress indeed. Funnily enough, this is one of the issues for why Japan is declining in child birth, because women now have more rights to work, but this is off-topic. Now to the hourly pay gap. Which seems to be 84 cents But men are more likely to enter STEM fields, which tend to pay more, (Search "Why do women graduate to a pay gap?") women instead focus on education and social sciences. The best paying job is being a "physician" in the United States. But it seems women don't want to be that, considering they're about 1/4 of the total number. What about technology? Women seem to not be into that either. Yes, it's funny, women are completely free to do as they please, to pick whatever degrees and jobs they want, yet, while having more degrees than men and being able to also earn more degrees than men, they still choose to have the lowest paying degrees. Then women also barely join jobs that have high payments like more dangerous jobs, unlike men. They need protection and low wages instead. I'm sure you'd come and scream at me how we force women into these type of jobs, but hey, I have this. Women are wanted in the STEM fields, yet they don't choose it anyway. Anyway, the "pay gap" is actually in favor of women and in disfavor of men now. In the end though, there is a wage gap that favors males. But by an incredibly tiny amount, and even researchers claim there's a multitude of reasons for why this happens: Like women not wanting to negotiate their salaries. In the end, the pay gap is really a myth. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| *yawn* these studies control for all those factors. Women face a pay gap in nearly every occupation. From elementary and middle school teachers to computer programmers, women are paid less than men in female-dominated, gender-balanced, and male-dominated occupations. You talk about the different kinds of occupation men get over women, while ignoring the fact that these studies already control for those factors. http://www.aauw.org/2015/04/14/women-shortchanged-in-stem/ An AAUW analysis of the U.S. Census Bureau’s 2013 American Community Survey data found that overall, women in computer and mathematical occupations were paid 87 percent of what their male counterparts were paid. And in engineering and architecture, women were typically paid 82 percent of what their male counterparts were paid, or about $65,000 annually, compared to $79,000 for men. |
| And honestly, I now checked your links. It links to itself as a source without even a mention of methodology. I call that begging the question. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: And honestly, I now checked your links. It links to itself as a source without even a mention of methodology. I call that begging the question. BAHAHA OWNED. AAUW analyzed the survey that the US government took. US government surveys are always rigorous and well done. I'm going to ignore you now since I already embarrassed you LOL. |
| Are you here with us, Olwen? I checked your supposed facts about the STEM field, it links towards a study that says nothing about it. They're linking to themselves on dubious studies made by themselves. Then they claim there's bias in salary, that I've proven to be because of women themselves AND there's actually institutional bias FOR women, not AGAINST them with this. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
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