| Soo, Ummm, Wakarimasen. LOL All this time Kiritsugu is like "I WANT WORLD PEACE! FOR SHIRLEY AND NATALIA! " Then that vision in episode 11 happens, and they start playing "The World Is Filled With Tough Choices" mind games with the ships. All of a sudden he is choosing between his family and the world. Oh and Trololol Command Seal: Destroy the Grail. Why? How did it come to that? What does that have to do with stopping the violence in the world? are they saying something about his true desire? What, I rrealy don't get it. If anyone can explain I much appreciate it. |
"Fuck this shit, fun things are fun!" |
| You know, reading the source material would make everything so much easier. Kiritsugu realized that the Holy Grail was not actually an omnipotent device capable of granting wishes, but in actuality, an object tainted by the evil of Angra Mainyu, which tried to manipulate him into destroying mankind by deconstructing his wishes for a world without violence, believing that it's in humanity's nature to have conflict, so to destroy conflict is to destroy humanity. It took the form of Irisviel and Ilyasviel, but Kiritsugu, not falling for it, ultimately rejected the Grail's evil, forcing Saber to destroy it before anyone else, notably Kotomine, could get their hands on it. However, as a result of Saber's Excalibur and whatnot, the nearby neighborhood was destroyed. The Grail's black water reincarnated Gilgamesh so that his body was now human, and resurrected Kotomine by giving him an artificial heart, and surrounded by the destroyed town, he realizes that his wish, if he'd have won, was to have people suffer. |
| And I mean that in the most sexually painful way possible. |
| Well, shit. Thank you for such a through explanation! Well done. Also, Ehhh, I guess I should read source material >.> |
| "Fuck this shit, fun things are fun!" |
StardustNyako said: Well, shit. Thank you for such a through explanation! Well done. Also, Ehhh, I guess I should read source material >.> Its spelled out in the anime too. Grail IS evil of all humanity, but its not a "person". It does not have mind, it does not have its own personality or ideas, it can only act through those of others. Grail grants wishes only via the means the one wishing for can attain... For Kerry, who always killed few to save many, attaining world peace would be accomplished in same way - Grail would destroy few to save many again and again till Kerry, Iris and Illya are the only ones left alive on earth The only world peace that Kerry's methodology can accomplish is the world being dead.. Kerry outright states afterwards that its the choice between his family and the whole world. So he orders to destroy the grail so it would not ever happen. Saber on other hand has absolutely no idea about the nature of the grail, so for her it feels like ultimate betrayal. However Kerry makes one mistake - he destroys the "physical" part of the grail, while he should have been trying to destroy the one in the sky. With that the grail contents spill over onto the town, causing fire and death everywhere(the mud is comparable to lava in this situation). Seeing all of that happen pretty much completely breaks him. AND his body and mind have already been poisoned from coming in contact with the embodiment of the grail in that vision. The very last scene, where Kerry, sitting on that entrance, says he is glad, is the moment of his death. |
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Fai said: Seeing all of that happen pretty much completely breaks him. AND his body and mind have already been poisoned from coming in contact with the embodiment of the grail in that vision. So what you're saying is, the Grail touched him innapropriately in his bathing suit area, which left him physically and emotionally scarred in the butthole? Fai said: However Kerry makes one mistake - he destroys the "physical" part of the grail, while he should have been trying to destroy the one in the sky. With that the grail contents spill over onto the town, causing fire and death everywhere(the mud is comparable to lava in this situation). I thought it only rose into the sky because he destroyed the vessel containing the evil, and that what he actually should have done was destroy the true body of the Grail buried in the mountain soaking up prana from the leylines? Well, it may as well be semantics. All you really need to know is that he failed to destroy the evil within the grail. |
fst said: Fai said: Seeing all of that happen pretty much completely breaks him. AND his body and mind have already been poisoned from coming in contact with the embodiment of the grail in that vision. So what you're saying is, the Grail touched him innapropriately in his bathing suit area, which left him physically and emotionally scarred in the butthole? That would be the spin-off; The Shawshank Grail. |
| And I mean that in the most sexually painful way possible. |
| ^This The hole in the sky and the Greater Grail's location are two different things.Thats why: [spoiler] In Fate SaberxShirou destroy the hole and nothing happens, but the Greater Grail is still working, preparing for the next war. In UBW the hole was never formed thanks the vessel being saved...goddamnit And in HF Shiro or Ilya put an end to the ritual itself. |
| Looking forward to FSN 2014, Not so much to having to watch it subbed |
| "Fuck this shit, fun things are fun!" |
| what lancer and Saber means as honor. It is a way to respect the opponent, a way to accept that the one that they want to kill is simply a human being that chose a different side, and show it to him. It is also a way to avoid collateral damages, and an incentive for people to do the right thing in every situation. When they teamed up against caster in the name of chivalry, they did it to show that caster was not worthy of respect by killing innocent people. Lancer and Saber are people who would not shoot at civilians, would make a truce to protect the innocent and the weak during the fighting if necessary, would not shoot at the medics first, would not dress as the ennemy during a war, would treat their prisonners with respect and dilligence. THAT'S WHAT THEY MEAN BY HONOR, which is a sentiment echoed by the geneva convention. That doesn't mean that they always have to fight head-on, as saber shown when she was openly awed and admirative of lancer's deception in their first match. She also explicitdly accepts the need for deception and traps. She just has lines she won't cross. Both of them hate killing anyone, but feel that the only way to change the world is by taking actions, and these actions sometimes necessitates killing. Doesn't mean that you have to be a cruel dick about it, which is why they have rules and duties which are their code of honor. They believe killing should be done whithin certain rules so it doesn't snowball into something really hellish not only for them, but for everyone. On the other hand, Kiritsugu is someone who considers his opponents as targets to be eliminated regardless of the means, not as human beings; when he saw keynneth being helplessly gunned down and beheaded, the narration points out that he didn't feel anything, other than the feeling of a job well done. When considering how to kill waver, he makes clear that he considers him to just be a kid who's way over his head, not a fighter in any way, and certainly not a threat other than having an overpowered servant, and yet he then coldly plans to simply snipe the poor kid in his house as soon as he lets his guard down, and seriously considers taking the old couple at his house hostages to manipulate him into the open (he only relents because of a series of coincidences that led him to think that waver doesn't care about the couple anyway). He feels that he became weak because he felt the need to ring a false alarm to empty the hotel where kayneth resided; before, he would have simply destroyed the entire building without any warning and killed everyone inside, who would have been guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong moment, "because that is the most efficient way". It's also mentionned that he planted bombs in public, that he took down whole planes to kill ONE passenger, and that his promises are not worth very much at least in spirit if you are an ennemy, he was against saving the children caster brought with him because it exposed saber in a way he didn't like and was ok watching him torture them because it was inconvenient to act then (saber only got to go because irisviel urged her to go in disgust while kiritsugu was busy elsewhere), and he makes a point to consider servants as tools to be used for the sake of victory, refusing to consider them as being who can feel emotions. IMO, kiritsugu's whole appeal is in how he can be a ruthless, cruel and evil person even though his aim and goals are noble and how it is crushing him to act like that because he subconsciously knows how terrible his actions are. To deny that his methods are evil, regardless of how necessary they are(which can be hotly debated) is just denying an extremely important part of his character. Lancer's and to a lesser extent saber's appeal is in seeing how decent,nice and honorable a person can and should be until the reality fucks you up, and to what extent you should even be trying in the first place. |
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| 1).Saber, Lancer and all other knights of honor or whatever are hypocrites.They TRY to justify their actions with words like honor.Yeah we saw how honor helped Saber's kingdom.Or what kind of life Lancer's had.You cant blame "reality" for how they fail. 2)Kiritsugu took down ONE plane, and that plane had only ONE living human being inside,the woman he thought as a his mother and mentor. 3)He was NOT ok with what the kids were going through but he wouldnt put his participation in the war in danger for them, just like he would kill Kariya if he ever had asked him to help him save Sakura. 4)He is not evil.I dont think you understand the word OR his character, but then again we all know what a misanthropist you are.You probably think that the Dead Apostle Natalia killed didnt deserve it, yet. |
ssjokg said: 1).Saber, Lancer and all other knights of honor or whatever are hypocrites.They TRY to justify their actions with words like honor.Yeah we saw how honor helped Saber's kingdom.Or what kind of life Lancer's had.You cant blame "reality" for how they fail. 2)Kiritsugu took down ONE plane, and that plane had only ONE living human being inside,the woman he thought as a his mother and mentor. 3)He was NOT ok with what the kids were going through but he wouldnt put his participation in the war in danger for them, just like he would kill Kariya if he ever had asked him to help him save Sakura. 4)He is not evil.I dont think you understand the word OR his character, but then again we all know what a misanthropist you are.You probably think that the Dead Apostle Natalia killed didnt deserve it, yet. What I said is the truth about him |
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| Which totally ignores the story. If you want to discuss about it fine but keep your humanity sucks bias out of it. |
It's also mentionned that he planted bombs in public, that he took down whole planes to kill ONE passenger If you watched the series, you would know that that's not why he took down the entire plane. It wasn't just mentioned, they spent an entire episode showing it. |
ssjokg said: Which totally ignores the story. If you want to discuss about it fine but keep your humanity sucks bias out of it. It might be about the story which I have no problems with but the way he does things is wrong. Saber wanted to stop caster and his master from kidnapping and killing children which he said no and carry on with the graile wars......sure he took him down but if saber acted quickly she might of been able to stop him from killing children. Also he disturbes a dual between saber and lancer which was a respectable one on one dual, hell they might of been friends but thanks to that prick kiritsugu he made saber look like a cheat and a coward. He is willing to kill people to save the many without even trying to think of a way to save everyone.........that's some fucked up mind set there |
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| His actions arent wrong or right but make sense. As we saw, Saber couldnt do shit against Caster by herself, Kiritsugu knew what he was doing by trying to avoid Caster.Stop ignoring the story. That is really hypocritical.Saber and Lancer lowered their chances at winning the grail for "honor" when one of them bluntly disobeys his Lord AGAIN, when his wish is to correct his mistake in life and the other forgets her goal for the same reason that her kingdom fell.They would be friends?Really?Friends that would KILL EACH OTHER?Dear god.Honor in the battlefield is such a sweet thing worth keeping in the world. He cant save other people any other way.Nobody can.That is the point of the ideal of a "Champion of Justice".He cant risk losing the grail for some children, he cant risk the safety of entire countries for one family member and mentor, or the entire world for his wife and daughter. He isnt fucked up because he acts like that.He is fucked up because he does something that actually hurts him. |
ssjokgAug 22, 2014 3:14 AM
ssjokg said: His actions arent wrong or right but make sense. As we saw, Saber couldnt do shit against Caster by herself, Kiritsugu knew what he was doing by trying to avoid Caster.Stop ignoring the story. That is really hypocritical.Saber and Lancer lowered their chances at winning the grail for "honor" when one of them bluntly disobeys his Lord AGAIN, when his wish is to correct his mistake in life and the other forgets her goal for the same reason that her kingdom fell.They would be friends?Really?Friends that would KILL EACH OTHER?Dear god.Honor in the battlefield is such a sweet thing worth keeping in the world. He cant save other people any ther way.He cant risk losing the grail for some children, he cant risk the safety of entire countries for one family member and mentor, or the entire world for his wife and daughter. He isnt fucked up because he acts like that.He is fucked up because he does something that actually hurts him. But it's all thanks to the combined efforts of rider, lancer and saber that they stopped caster and they stopped caster from doing more harm and killing.............And by ignoring caster loads of children lost there lives.......again I'm not ignoring the story.....I'm stating facts Again listen to me.......there was a chance they could of been friend cause they share the same ideals and respected each other......hell lancer went so far to remove the curse that he put on her to stop caster and saber only used her one hand instead of both so that they could start off where they left it from.....they respect each other and wanted it fair where's that prick Kiritsugu cheated to win he doesn't care how he wins as long as he wins. Well look at it this way........What if one of those kids was yours and was killed by caster...how would you feel then.......I mean look at rei...she's a little girl and she saved loads of children also the master of lancer had a difficult choice because he's wife was held hostage and was being threatened- he could ether lose his wife and his life and lose the chance to get the graile.......this was a very difficult choice for him because he has waited and prepare his whole life for this war........sure he was a bastard at times I get that......but even tho his wife broke his finger and he suspected her flirting with lancer and Kiritsugu held her hostage and was threatening to kill her............he chose to save her over the grail and even after giving up Kiritsugu had him killed .....And don't say that he would want revenge on Kiritsugu later....cause that's all speculation we dont know if he would or wouldnt take revenge on him.........Kiritsugu had him and his wife killed and left lancers master to suffer and he begged Kiritsugu to kill him and he wouldn't because he wrote a contract that Kiritsugu wouldn't kill him.........that is Pretty fucked up. For something that hurts him...he sure doesn't look like his suffering...............they say killing becomes a regular thing, you don't feel anything and see it as a natural later on ......And that's what Kiritsugu doesn't have any more he doesn't feel a thing when he kills people........hell he didn't feel a thing when he killed his own father and kept a straight face when he did it |
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| How the hell does that refute that Kiritsugu made the right decision by ignoring Caster in the forest?If it wasnt for the arrival of Lancer, Saber would be among the rape victims of Caster.As you said it was thy COMBINED efforts of 3 Servants.Saber and Kiritsugu would just die in the forest. And Kiritsugu is the only one that makes sense out of the 3 because he understands what is in stake.Actually scratch that. ALL MASTERS in the war know what is at stake and wouldnt hesitate to kill of the enemy Servant in similar ways.It wasnt Kiritsugu's "nature" that killed Lancer that way, it was common sense of a participant that doesnt see the battlefield full of rainbows and children's dreams. My opinion and the opinion of any parent has nothing to do with what Kiritsugu thought.Especially when he and Saber CANT do shit against Castern when Saber cant use both hands. Her name is Rin btw and 1)that was anime original content and 2)it was pure luck. I fail to see what Kayneth has to do with this.But that doesnt even matter since this is a WAR.God forbid if threats happen. That's speculation?Magi in Nasuverse did worse things than revenge simply because they were overshadowed by other magi during COLLAGE, and Kayneth wouldnt try to get revenge for losing his magic circuits, being humiliated in a fight by a heretic magus that uses weaponry and for losing the Grail? Also what Kayneth would do in the future doesnt matter since that is the point of Kirtsugu's action, to make sure, to be 100% sure that something like that wont happen.And it is Maiya's fault that Kayneth suffered not Kiritsugu's. I wont even talk about Kiritsugu's feelings when we saw time and again how he feels,even when he killed his father. You dont have facts.Only bias because the Kiritsugu doesnt try to kill himself, Saber, and his family in order to save everyone. Also stop that bullshit as if you know about killing and how it changes you. |
| First of all, arguing that 4th war masters were not idiots is pointless. THat's the whole point. None of them except for Kerry took it seriously, nor had clear understanding what the fuck they gotten themselves into. Kerry was idiot because he thought he could HANDLE emotional fallout that his decisions cause upon him. Fate/Zero make sit clear that as long as you chose to "play the game" of the holy grail war, you do NOT win. You only "win" by walking away(case in point: Waver) - and the masters were far too indulged in their egos to understand that(case in point: Kariya and Tokiomi putting aside their egos could have solved a lot of bullshit) Now that does NOT make what Kerry did "wrong" - there's no right or wrong in this world. In terms of magi, even the "good guys" are awful people, with beyond horrible methods and capabilities (ex: Touko Aozaki is the "Good guy" that fits the traditional magi mindset...and that's someone who ). Kerry's fears were 100% valid even if Kayneth meant no harm RIGHT NOW. So no, Kerry's not evil, just a self-destructive idiot with a tunnel vision. |
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Animefreak17a said: And yet you call Kira a hero of justice.It might be about the story which I have no problems with but the way he does things is wrong. I am too lazy to read through the last few posts but I can already tell you're being biased and ignoring a few important things. |
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| Well, right and wrong are just ideas created by humans so that we could judge other people. It's not like they're some infallible, universal, transcendent set of values that are clearly and precisely defined. Fai said: Fate/Zero make sit clear that as long as you chose to "play the game" of the holy grail war, you do NOT win. You only "win" by walking away(case in point: Waver) - and the masters were far too indulged in their egos to understand that(case in point: Kariya and Tokiomi putting aside their egos could have solved a lot of bullshit) Does Kirei count as "winning"? I want to say he came out better than he came in, but he now literally has no heart. I'm not sure if that counts for anything in the grand scheme of things. But then, he didn't exactly play the game straight. |
fst said: Well, right and wrong are just ideas created by humans so that we could judge other people. It's not like they're some infallible, universal, transcendent set of values that are clearly and precisely defined. Fai said: Fate/Zero make sit clear that as long as you chose to "play the game" of the holy grail war, you do NOT win. You only "win" by walking away(case in point: Waver) - and the masters were far too indulged in their egos to understand that(case in point: Kariya and Tokiomi putting aside their egos could have solved a lot of bullshit) Does Kirei count as "winning"? I want to say he came out better than he came in, but he now literally has no heart. I'm not sure if that counts for anything in the grand scheme of things. But then, he didn't exactly play the game straight. Kirei has no heart and has I don't see that as "having won". |
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| well at least he had fun. |
Fai said: First of all, arguing that 4th war masters were not idiots is pointless. THat's the whole point. None of them except for Kerry took it seriously, nor had clear understanding what the fuck they gotten themselves into. Kerry was idiot because he thought he could HANDLE emotional fallout that his decisions cause upon him. Fate/Zero make sit clear that as long as you chose to "play the game" of the holy grail war, you do NOT win. You only "win" by walking away(case in point: Waver) - and the masters were far too indulged in their egos to understand that(case in point: Kariya and Tokiomi putting aside their egos could have solved a lot of bullshit) Now that does NOT make what Kerry did "wrong" - there's no right or wrong in this world. In terms of magi, even the "good guys" are awful people, with beyond horrible methods and capabilities (ex: Touko Aozaki is the "Good guy" that fits the traditional magi mindset...and that's someone who ). Kerry's fears were 100% valid even if Kayneth meant no harm RIGHT NOW. So no, Kerry's not evil, just a self-destructive idiot with a tunnel vision. Kariya fught for Sakura, to save her from old creepo Pedo |
| "Fuck this shit, fun things are fun!" |
| Kariya also fought for himself to get rid of Tokiomi and under Aoi's skirt. |
C-Core said: Kariya also fought for himself to get rid of Tokiomi and under Aoi's skirt. To be fair, Aoi is a total MILF. |
| And I mean that in the most sexually painful way possible. |
C-Core said: To be fair he knew he wouldnt survive before summoning Berserker.Kariya also fought for himself to get rid of Tokiomi and under Aoi's skirt. It was after that that he was filled with "KILL TOKIOMI", "KILL ARCHER" thoughts. |
StardustNyako said: Fai said: First of all, arguing that 4th war masters were not idiots is pointless. THat's the whole point. None of them except for Kerry took it seriously, nor had clear understanding what the fuck they gotten themselves into. Kerry was idiot because he thought he could HANDLE emotional fallout that his decisions cause upon him. Fate/Zero make sit clear that as long as you chose to "play the game" of the holy grail war, you do NOT win. You only "win" by walking away(case in point: Waver) - and the masters were far too indulged in their egos to understand that(case in point: Kariya and Tokiomi putting aside their egos could have solved a lot of bullshit) Now that does NOT make what Kerry did "wrong" - there's no right or wrong in this world. In terms of magi, even the "good guys" are awful people, with beyond horrible methods and capabilities (ex: Touko Aozaki is the "Good guy" that fits the traditional magi mindset...and that's someone who ). Kerry's fears were 100% valid even if Kayneth meant no harm RIGHT NOW. So no, Kerry's not evil, just a self-destructive idiot with a tunnel vision. Kariya fught for Sakura, to save her from old creepo Pedo Nope. Kariya fought "FOR Sakura", but the REASON he fought was to ntr the woman he loved/obsessed over from the man he wanted to find a reason to kill for. |
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cabacc2 said: The anime made it clear that the grail would keep killing the minority till the sacrificed ones would be more than the ones that were saved.That's not kiritusgu's way at all.wouldnt the grail only kill the minority in a life vs. life scenario? Thats at least how it was portrayed inside the grail, the scene where Kiritsugu was confronted with the "boat-dilemma". Right? It said that it would realize Kiritsugus work on a global scale. Thats what it said. Maybe I'm missing out, because I lack the information of the source material, but given the facts I have from the anime: wouldnt it be actually a blessing for the world? Kiritsugus work on a global scale, killing the minority for the majority in life vs. life scenarios? This wouldnt lead to humanity going extinct, not at all. What a terrible misconception... |
cabacc2 said: wouldnt the grail only kill the minority in a life vs. life scenario? Thats at least how it was portrayed inside the grail, the scene where Kiritsugu was confronted with the "boat-dilemma". Right? It said that it would realize Kiritsugus work on a global scale. Thats what it said. Maybe I'm missing out, because I lack the information of the source material, but given the facts I have from the anime: wouldnt it be actually a blessing for the world? Kiritsugus work on a global scale, killing the minority for the majority in life vs. life scenarios? This wouldnt lead to humanity going extinct, not at all. What a terrible misconception... It would, if grail repeats it again and again. If you keep sacrificing the few to saw many, at some point the "many" will be the size of the previous "Few". And Grail would keep repeating it till pretty much only Iris, Illya and Kerry are left. ssjokg said: cabacc2 said: The anime made it clear that the grail would keep killing the minority till the sacrificed ones would be more than the ones that were saved.That's not kiritusgu's way at all.wouldnt the grail only kill the minority in a life vs. life scenario? Thats at least how it was portrayed inside the grail, the scene where Kiritsugu was confronted with the "boat-dilemma". Right? It said that it would realize Kiritsugus work on a global scale. Thats what it said. Maybe I'm missing out, because I lack the information of the source material, but given the facts I have from the anime: wouldnt it be actually a blessing for the world? Kiritsugus work on a global scale, killing the minority for the majority in life vs. life scenarios? This wouldnt lead to humanity going extinct, not at all. What a terrible misconception... It is Kerry's way. Just fast-forwarded and stripped out of any sort of humanity. IT is the highlight of Kerry's way's hypocrisy. Grail takes it and does the worst possible outcome of it. |
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Fai said: cabacc2 said: wouldnt the grail only kill the minority in a life vs. life scenario? Thats at least how it was portrayed inside the grail, the scene where Kiritsugu was confronted with the "boat-dilemma". Right? It said that it would realize Kiritsugus work on a global scale. Thats what it said. Maybe I'm missing out, because I lack the information of the source material, but given the facts I have from the anime: wouldnt it be actually a blessing for the world? Kiritsugus work on a global scale, killing the minority for the majority in life vs. life scenarios? This wouldnt lead to humanity going extinct, not at all. What a terrible misconception... It would, if grail repeats it again and again. If you keep sacrificing the few to saw many, at some point the "many" will be the size of the previous "Few". And Grail would keep repeating it till pretty much only Iris, Illya and Kerry are left. ssjokg said: The anime made it clear that the grail would keep killing the minority till the sacrificed ones would be more than the ones that were saved.That's not kiritusgu's way at all. It is Kerry's way. Just fast-forwarded and stripped out of any sort of humanity. IT is the highlight of Kerry's way's hypocrisy. Grail takes it and does the worst possible outcome of it. Then it isnt his way. He knows when to stop. |
cabacc2 said: What the grail does, is choosing the minority as sacrifice in life vs. life scenarios. Right? Now, in the hypothetical boat-dilemma situation, the best choice was to kill the minority over and over again, because more and more holes open up in the boats. This, however, was not a result of the grail being evil, but of the scenario being very unfavorable. When all the grail does, is choosing the minority in said life vs. life scenarios, this wouldnt lead to humanity going extinct. It would, if there were somehow 1.000.000 life vs. life scenarios a day, but in this case humanity would still be better off, if the grail chose the minority. To understand why the grail still gives the best option, take a look at the boat-dilemma again. What is our alternative option? Take this for example: 1000 people, you have to kill either 600 or 700 either way, number of sacrifices > number of saved people "600 die" is not the bad outcome here, and is in accordance to Kerry's way (which is: safe as many as possible, using every method possible) cabacc2 said: What the grail does, is choosing the minority as sacrifice in life vs. life scenarios. Right? Now, in the hypothetical boat-dilemma situation, the best choice was to kill the minority over and over again, because more and more holes open up in the boats. This, however, was not a result of the grail being evil, but of the scenario being very unfavorable. When all the grail does, is choosing the minority in said life vs. life scenarios, this wouldnt lead to humanity going extinct. It would, if there were somehow 1.000.000 life vs. life scenarios a day, but in this case humanity would still be better off, if the grail chose the minority. To understand why the grail still gives the best option, take a look at the boat-dilemma again. What is our alternative option? Take this for example: 1000 people, you have to kill either 600 or 700 either way, number of sacrifices > number of saved people "600 die" is not the bad outcome here, and is in accordance to Kerry's way (which is: safe as many as possible, using every method possible) 1000 people, you kill 600. Then in 400 you kill(for example) 150 so others canlive. THE WORLD IS like that boat, with holes, there will ALWAYS be life-and-death situations, from microscopic to giant scale. It does not end. It does not stop, world does not ever become utopia. Kerry is human. He can't physically DO that. Nor he would want to since he is a human and would break down mentally from doing that. Grail is omnipotent machine of ill will, possessed by the literal embodiment of all evils in the world. It does not break, it does not stop, it does not have limits or "emotions" or "conscience". And thus the grail would continue till only Kerry Iris and Illya remain. Grail does not have "personality" or "mind" or any of that stuff. Only ill intent towards humanity. So in this case, the parameters of Kerry's ideology would be used to ensure maximum death count of humanity. "life and death" situations appear EVERY SECOND in our world. And thus the grail would make full use of that. No matter the wish you make, Grail would implement it in a way that causes the highest possible amount of humans to die. In case of Kerry's wish, that would be everyone. ssjokg said: He knows when to stop. Considering he even chose to participate in grail war, no he does not know when to stop. He simply would NOTbe able to go on for such lengths because he is humanand despite trying his best, still has shit like guilt and emotions. In a way, Grail was in this situation a twisted version of what Kerry aspired to be - an emotionless tool capable of making those choices. |
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| I REALLY can't understand your logic. |
| @Fai HGW is totally different from his way of doing things since it supposedly was giving him a chance to save literally everyone. Since Kiritsugu ISN'T that twisted, it isn't his way. |
| Read Fai's reply again. |
| Fai made it quite clear how the grailll works.There is really nothing more to say. |
| You clearly didn't understand what Fai said. |
| I can't write an essay now because i am using a smartphone. How the anime portayed it doesn't matter since you aren't supposed to understand how it works in the FZ novel either. No matter what it was shown to Kerry, the truth is what Fai said.at least the vast majority is. |
| >Lazy writing >bad plot device I imagine that you even think that urobuchi created this bad plot device as well. You see?You have no idea what you are talking about. When fans insist that Fsn must be experienced first every retard jumps in and says that it isnt necessary yet here is another viewer that has no idea what he is talking about. |
cabacc2 said: ssjokg said: as I said. If the grail IS Kerry's way on a global scale, the only way to cause extinction isRead Fai's reply again. a) activate in non life vs. life scenarios (fuck up people even when there are no holes) b) somehow create life vs. life scenarios (open up the holes artificially) a hole represents a "A lives or B lives, one MUST die, or the other one dies, they cannot both live"-scenario, the precondition for the grail to activate its function and start the A > B or B > A evaluation. You are assuming there's a situation when there are on holes. THat's not the case. As I said before "life or death" situations happen every second in our world on varying scales, situations where killing few can save many. Few can be one, or few can be 10 or few can be thousands, does not matter. Fate/Zero, as well as our real world, operates under idea that Utopia is impossible to achieve, so life or death situations WILL keep happening, again, and again, and agian, every second, every minute. And grail will go on till nothing is left. Bad things do not just "stop" happening. But with every choice, everywhere, being solved with that way, thenumber of people keeps decreasing. Your logic operates on assumption that there's a moment in our world when there ARE NO life or death situations, which is not the logic upon which fate/zero or our world operates. It eradicates the possibilities of both "Few" and "many" surviving(because there ARE situations when you CAN save everyone) and it fulfills that "kill few to save many" ideology on omnipotent scale. In a world where there ALWAYS is life-or-death situation somewhere. Also Grail's nature is something a viewer would know since the start, since this is a prequel to the main story. We as a viewer KNOW that any and every wish would turn out that way and we know WHY. In this case its about KERRY himself realizing that HIS wish would lead to evil and that's sufficient. |
AhenshihaelAug 30, 2014 1:47 PM
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| Please explain to this stupid me what you mean by minimizing . And AGAIN:You are supposed to know how the grail works before reading or watching FZ. |
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