| Those who've watched the OVA are already familiar with the heaven or hell path that seems to be one of the cruxes of this show. It seemed simple enough...until it was revealed that the husband would be sent reincarnated, while the wife would be sent to the Void. See, Japan is a Shinto country, with heavy influences from Buddhism as well, and in Buddhism Heaven/Reincarnation, the Void and Hell are all three separate places. So that by itself raises a lot of questions, because there's several interpretations of the Void, let alone all three. Add in the fact that the show just began, and we have no idea of any of the specifics, we have no idea which exact interpretations are influencing the story, or if the meaning of the destinations have been switched up. Also, it's pretty freaking obvious that the wife lied. Just look at Decim's face. He already knows about these people's lives, so he knows she didn't cheat, which is why he was shocked by the actions of the wife. Yes, there's that brief flashback, after she says "Yes, there is someone else I love.", but we don't know when that took place, and she could be talking about a guy from a previous relationship. She gave her husband the out he desperately wanted most likely because she went thru the same torment her husband thinks he's going thru. If she was the evil, selfish b*tch she tried to portray that she was, she would've either 1) had freaked out if she noticed the masks were switched and begged for forgiveness or 2) if she didn't notice the masks, she would've been relieved, thinking that her winning = Heaven, instead of clearly being heartbroken. This anime has such detailed facial, and physical, expressions that if you look at her reactions after she "wins", you know she's being genuine. There is the possibility that she did cheat, but she clearly loved her husband as there was no true malice. Too many people are looking at this anime at face value. |
Makaze_no_MoujuuJan 9, 2015 9:53 PM
| Agree with you. |
FragOutFire said: Why am I a Berserk fan? All I ever experience is pain. We are in the eclipse and Miura has sacrificed us |
skudoops said: Makaze_no_Moujuu said: She gave her husband the out he desperately wanted most likely because she went thru the same torment her husband thinks he's going thru. This is pretty interesting, it never once occurred to me that, that scene was meant to portray role reversal and not an actual incident of infidelity. There's a strong chance she was cheated on but someone who displayed the same behavior as she did, and she understood why her husband was behaving like that. Good thinking there captain! Thanks! When I saw that brief flashback, I thought along the lines of "That's too convenient/easy." The "confession" is clearly an brave face, as she's clearly paused to steel her resolve. She was just about to break the heart of the man she loved, on purpose, because she new he couldn't except that he killed his child. An evil. selfish b*tch wouldn't need to keep up the act of showing genuine sorrow and nervousness (biting her lips) once she realized that they were already dead AND the fact that she won the game, in which they staked their fates on. There should've been instant relief, and revealing that she only wanted him for his money would've been easy once that knowledge was gained. She clearly purposely sacrificed herself for his sake. Hopefully, we learn what truly happens to these people. |
Makaze_no_MoujuuJan 10, 2015 12:17 AM
| I posted something in the discussion of the first episode but i think it may fit better here, let me know what you think. "For what i know, it is as you say, as well as on your other thread. He actually isn't a bad guy, but need to live more so they can actually jugde what of a human he is. Let me explain my thoughts. I dont know if any of you have ever experimented a situation where you are blamed for something you didn't do. You actually get pretty angry, or desperate, especially if the person blaming you is someone you love. She got really angry, she said all that just to piss the guy and to release her anger. She is lying, although she seems to have experimented being cheated on. When you watch the scene where they are on the bed, I think that resembles when she got cheated on. More over, she doesn't even look happy in that bed, i can't imagine her cheating like that. Now then, why the void. As it is said by Makaze_no_Moujuu, void is not the same as hell. Actually it is REALLY different. To be honest i dont think Buddhism has even hell. People isn't bad, they just need to live more and meditate. For what i know, no human goes directly to heaven, because they haven't dedicated their life to meditation nor reach a perfect mental state, so they go to void. So what is the Void? Void. Nothing, emptiness, the perfect place to meditate and to think all you have done. So summarizing, nor of them did bad. He misunderstood everything and acted impulsively, but that isn't bad at all is it? He just needed to live more peaceably. As for the woman, she loved her husband and didn't cheat on him, but got trully angry at him, was so pissed off, so she said that... But that isn't bad either is it? So she was sent to the void, to reflect what she did. The man actually tried to hit her so maybe that is the reason he was sent back to other life. Decim knows the past of the players, he seemed pretty puzzled when the woman said she had cheated on him, so that is another proof that she was lying. And the woman dryed her tears before she said all that, looked really sad. Buuuut, that are only my thoughts and i really can't fit the final masks in the elevators with what i just said... But that is what i understood." Now, i really can't understand the devil mask in the woman's elevator :/ |
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| @HeavensC I responded to you about the masks but they're just random things I found or tried to piece together after half and hour of research. Pretty much in line with my thoughts, but even more elaboration on Buddhism and the void, which is really interesting. But yeah the only thing that idk how it would be explained is the masks. Honestly I've never really wanted to know more about noh masks because they look fucking scary, but after briefly looking through some, I have some things to share. The mask above Machiko's elevator does look seem like it mean that the void she is going into means a negative thing, it's red and it's angry and it has horns, which pretty much are universal characteristics of a demon, or something you would see in Hell. I think it most likely represents the Hannya mask (and can come in red too). The Hannya Mask The expression of this mask is a fusion of jealousy, grudge, sorrow, and grief of women. It has a demonic appearance with two horns, knitting her brows and stiffening her cheeks. As for the other mask...I think it's the Shakumi/Fukai??? Or could be close to a deigan which seems quite fitting for Takashi if you read the description. The Deigan mask is used for a woman who has submerged her jealousy, but who is beginning to change into an evil creature Though idk because then that might not fit for the character that went into reincarnation for the OVA, I can't remember it fully though.Anyways, it's just something else to think about I guess, I mean I doubt they used noh masks just because they look cool. Also, I agree that she didn't cheat on Takashi, that the scene which appeared right after Machiko's first line of confession was just a "what-if," an imaginary "past" that happened to go along with Machiko's lie. If you're interested, you can do some more research yourself or see if you have anything else to add since idk about anything I just wrote. |
tingy said: @HeavensC I responded to you about the masks but they're just random things I found or tried to piece together after half and hour of research. Pretty much in line with my thoughts, but even more elaboration on Buddhism and the void, which is really interesting. But yeah the only thing that idk how it would be explained is the masks. Honestly I've never really wanted to know more about noh masks because they look fucking scary, but after briefly looking through some, I have some things to share. The mask above Machiko's elevator does look seem like it mean that the void she is going into means a negative thing, it's red and it's angry and it has horns, which pretty much are universal characteristics of a demon, or something you would see in Hell. I think it most likely represents the Hannya mask (and can come in red too). The Hannya Mask As for the other mask...I think it's the Shakumi/Fukai??? Or could be close to a deigan which seems quite fitting for Takashi if you read the description. Though idk because then that might not fit for the character that went into reincarnation for the OVA, I can't remember it fully though. Anyways, it's just something else to think about I guess, I mean I doubt they used noh masks just because they look cool. Also, I agree that she didn't cheat on Takashi, that the scene which appeared right after Machiko's first line of confession was just a "what-if," an imaginary "past" that happened to go along with Machiko's lie. If you're interested, you can do some more research yourself or see if you have anything else to add since idk about anything I just wrote. The info of the masks actually fits the outcomes of BOTH the OVA and this episode. It also potentially means that (if the masks in the show are indeed the same) those masks actually have NO correlation to Heaven or Hell, as some of us are thinking. I'm gonna use your post to start an new thread (crediting you, of course)! |
| Oh okay, like I said I don't really remember the the OVA well so thanks for telling me that it fits! And about the new thread, go for it! I think it's interesting and no one else had really looked into it yet, only saying that the red mask must mean bad and the white mask must mean good ^^ And I did refer back to the OVA to see if the masks were the same, which they were. |
| I think "The Void" mean heaven and "Reincarnation" is the hell. Simply think it in religious way being Human is a sin and get lose of your body and living eternally in the void is the Heaven where there are no sin. Which lead my though on this episode because, the wife doesn't only won the game she confess her sin that she having an affair but, her husband still blame her even she said she have already realize so, he have to re-live again till he learned. |
| If the Void is salvation, heaven or whatever why did that elevator has an oni/devil mask above it? |
| Didn't realize how deep this anime was holy shit. Doesn't matter cause I won't be watching this until it's finished so I can watch this all in one sitting. |
| Plot twist: Hell means you have to stay in the bar forever. |
| Hmmm we are developing quite an interpretation haha. After going to sleep and being pretty interested in this thing i tried to look for mor evidence on something like that and now i think she actually cheatED on him, but no longer. First in the bed scene it's true she has a ring, the not-so-happy atmosphere might mean that she thinks she is doing wrong, so she stoped meeting the other guy. I don't really know if the baby is of the husband or the other guy to be honest. If we think this way it all might have a bit more sense. I dont have information about Buddhist masks at all so can't elaborate on that but it can have some sense. She loved his husband so she left the other man, but he continued calling her so thats why she didn't answer. The mask that means sorrow and grief could reflect how she was feeling, i mean, she regreted everything she'd done, so she does not need to go re-evaluate her life in another life, she just needs to go the void and meditate; not heaven because she still did bad. I dont think there is actually more ways after death in Buddhism others than reincarnate or the void, maybe also heaven exists, but i'm quite sure hell doesn't. So ok, about the girl that the husband hears about at the wedding, she is clearly another woman, and not her wife. Now i feel that things have more sense, thinking she actually cheated but regretted it. I'm sorry if i'm not explaining myseft correctly, english is not my native language. |
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| I like the idea of "void" being "heaven" (finally your soul has been put to rest) while "reincarnation" is "hell" because you are damned to repeat the same mistakes over and over. But I'm not a religious person so I could totally be off the mark. That's just my own interpretation. Also, when the wife said she had someone else she loved, I assume she meant she loved his old self. After hearing the bridesmaids or whoever talk, he assumed his wife had cheated and kept the suspicion of her always cheating on him in his mind as shown in the flash backs. This changed him and gave him a tendency towards accusing/blaming her for things she never did. The real reason she hid the fact she was having a child for so long is because she probably feared that, like he did, he would accuse her of cheating and say it wasn't his. |
| If the Buddhist influences are expanded upon than even the concepts of Heaven and Hell are not permanent statuses. http://budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/303.htm Read this (it's not long), if you want to see what I'm talking about. "The Buddhist concept of heaven and hell is entirely different from that in other religions. Buddhists do not accept that these places are eternal. It is unreasonable to condemn a man to eternal hell for his human weakness but quite reasonable to give him every chance to develop himself. From the Buddhist point of view, those who go to hell can work themselves upward by making use of the merit that they had acquired previously. There are no locks on the gates of hell. Hell is a temporary place and there is no reason for those beings to suffer there forever." |
Kinzo said: Also, when the wife said she had someone else she loved, I assume she meant she loved his old self. That was exactly my first thought as well when going through that scene. Maybe it's really obvious or something (or wrong?), but funnily enough I haven't seen anyone else in the subforum mention it until now. But based on the emotions, voice acting, facial expressions and flashbacks to the husbands gentle face (contrasting with his crazy one), that's exactly what I got out of that scene when first seeing it. |
HarlequinaJan 10, 2015 10:18 AM
Kinzo said: Also, when the wife said she had someone else she loved, I assume she meant she loved his old self. After hearing the bridesmaids or whoever talk, he assumed his wife had cheated and kept the suspicion of her always cheating on him in his mind as shown in the flash backs. This changed him and gave him a tendency towards accusing/blaming her for things she never did. The real reason she hid the fact she was having a child for so long is because she probably feared that, like he did, he would accuse her of cheating and say it wasn't his. That is what I thought too. As for the reincarnation/void thing, I don't think it is that symbolic...I think it is just you get reincarnated or your soul wanders forever or something XD |
| @mbdsqaud and Grummel Orrr you could take a quick look at my post in this same thread? I think it's easy to say that red=Hell or death or something negative, but I'm offering another possible hypothesis as to what the masks may mean. It may sound as if I'm looking too much into it, or it could be an interesting idea that you guys haven't thought of ^^ Maybe not the latter since it seems like you guys do read through the thread as there aren't that many posts yet and just looked over my post because it sounds preposterous XD |
mbdsquad said: Also, if that's the case, then there's no "Heaven" or "Good Ending" at all. Both masks signifies "negativity" or "impurity". Both elevator are "Bad Ending". Throughout the series, we would only see 2 tragic persons breaking down, push to their limits, showing their true emotion/color, eventually showing their "dark side". Though that would be repetitive and boring. I wish I could see an episode where a couple are worth to be sent to "Heaven" or "Good Ending" or at least like Jigoku Shoujo where a person was sent to Hell even though he's a good one. Don't underestimate what they might do in this show in future episodes. :P Do you really think they'd make it completely episodic? Completely predictable? I wouldn't worry. I'm sure there'll be some interesting situations, based on what they did with this one. I'd expect Decim to learn and evolve as the show goes along, which would be nice to see. Can't forget the other fun denizens either... ... ... Welp, now I gotta watch the OP again. |
| Just going to throw in my take. What if whoever wins the game goes to hell? Because technically the winner is supposed to be someone who is willing to put the other through "hell" aka a lot of pain. A person like that should not be rewarded. So even if Matchy did lie for the good of her own husband (which is it left ambiguous for the viewers own interpretation), it wouldn't matter. She won the game and went to hell. In the end, Decim doesn't care who wins. He stays detached and simply hosts the game making sure the follow the rules set for him. He could of been surprised she lied or surprised she confessed. Remember, he never tells you what happens if you win that sick game. It looks like they might explain everything about the last game at the start of next episode however, which is kind of disapointing since I like how they left it up for the viewer to decide. Edit: Also don't worry yet, Madhouse probably recognizes this issue. They probably have it set that different games have different rules and conditions on whether you go to heaven or hell. Ex. One could be where the loser goes to hell instead of this one, etc (though this example was pretty bad haha) |
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| Might be early throwing assumption but here's mine: The void might have meant heaven, basically Machiko has been loyal to her husband and what she had said was just a blatant lie as seen from the reaction of the bartender. For the term reincarnation I think it would either mean that he is really going to live again(a new life) or repent his sins in hell, the man's sin is basically distrust to his wife, not to mention that his distrust is what have caused their death. And I assume that the game is scripted, the winner of the match has already been decided even before the match has even started, the game was just a formality and was used so that the couple could know what each other really think and felt. Well, this are just my own personal assumption. I hope the next episode would properly explain this Void and Reincarnation thing. |
| It makes no sense to claim that the wife was lying at the end about her infidelity. Bear in mind that she was the one condemned to Hell/the Void, while the husband was allowed to reincarnate/go to Heaven. Think about what the 'game' is really trying to test, who is the crueler of the two? Who is more willing to subject the person they love to agony in order to win? That's why even though the wife wins, she's the one condemned to Hell. Not sure why everyone's trying to read so much into this, she was a cheating whore and got what she deserved. |
mbdsquad said: Also, if that's the case, then there's no "Heaven" or "Good Ending" at all. Both masks signifies "negativity" or "impurity". Both elevator are "Bad Ending". Throughout the series, we would only see 2 tragic persons breaking down, push to their limits, showing their true emotion/color, eventually showing their "dark side". Though that would be repetitive and boring. Nothing to apologize about, just wanted to catch your attention. If the masks do really have these meanings, then imo I think it just means neither elevator are good or bad. You are either reincarnated or you go to the void. And that might mean something different for everyone; if you believe or agree with Buddhist philosophy, you would think that the void is the better choice as you achieve "eternal peace." If you were just any other normal person who lived a pretty good life or have regrets in life, you probably think reincarnation is the better choice, because you liked life or you want a second chance. As for being repetitive and boring, I don't think the whole series will be like this. I mean it might, but due to there being three other characters listed as main characters, I think that there might be more to the series than just episodes of people playing games and ending up at whichever elevator (especially also if you look at the episode preview which looks like we get to learn more about the other MCs). Unless that isn't what you mean, then I apologize for the misunderstanding :) Blind_Guardian said: It makes no sense to claim that the wife was lying at the end about her infidelity. Bear in mind that she was the one condemned to Hell/the Void, while the husband was allowed to reincarnate/go to Heaven. Think about what the 'game' is really trying to test, who is the crueler of the two? Who is more willing to subject the person they love to agony in order to win? That's why even though the wife wins, she's the one condemned to Hell. Not sure why everyone's trying to read so much into this, she was a cheating whore and got what she deserved. There's been a lot of discussion about this in the episode discussion thread (not sure if you read through them all), but I think one of the explanation that was offered which I thought was really interesting was that Machiko may have lied in order to lessen Takashi's pain. He felt terrible for "killing" his baby (among other things like anger and frustration), and so to make him feel less burdened, Machiko lied and said that yeah, she was the bad one, that the baby wasn't his. I believe that Machiko really loved Takashi, and that she was trying to prove to Takashi that she was speaking the truth and still loves him by aiming at the outside of the dartboard at the end, but it hit bullseye only because Takashi was struggling with her. Isn't that a reason to lie then? The way I see it, she didn't lie to give him more agony, but to make herself the bad person. A lot of times and I think for most people because humans are egocentric, they find it easier to hate and blame someone else rather themselves. And when people do blame themselves, they feel really shitty because well, it was something you did, something that you had control over. Blaming others means that you couldn't have done much or anything at all to change it, so you can take all the anger out on something else. Also, you're referencing Hell/void and Heaven/reincarnation together when the OP argued that they are separate ideas. Hell doesn't equal void, and Heaven doesn't equal reincarnation. I don't think it's a coincidence that prior to the couple going to the separate destinations that Decim only told them they would either go to Heaven or Hell, but in the end only to refer to the two places as reincarnation or the void. If it was so clear cut, why wouldn't the girl at the end just say Takashi went to Heaven and Machiko went to Hell? Also, according to Wikipedia (should be reliable enough): In Buddhism there are several heavens, all of which are still part of samsara (illusionary reality). Those who accumulate good karma may be reborn in one of them. However, their stay in the heaven is not eternal—eventually they will use up their good karma and will undergo a different rebirth into another realm, as humans, animals or other beings. Because heaven is temporary and part of samsara, Buddhists focus more on escaping the cycle of rebirth and reaching enlightenment (Nirvana). Nirvana is not a heaven but a mental state In Buddhism, Heaven and reincarnation is almost contradictory in a way, you can go to heaven, but not for forever because eventually you will be reborn. But as the last sentence says, they are trying to escape the cycle... Anyways, just some food for thought. I think part of the fun is that so many are trying to figure out what's going on. If many people are reading a lot into the content in the first episode, it just means that not everyone saw the episode the same way. We don't really know yet what the creator intended to tell us, and we aren't really given any facts in this episode except who ended up where in the end. You saw Machiko as a "cheating whore" while others would disagree. |
tingy said: There's been a lot of discussion about this in the episode discussion thread (not sure if you read through them all), but I think one of the explanation that was offered which I thought was really interesting was that Machiko may have lied in order to lessen Takashi's pain. He felt terrible for "killing" his baby (among other things like anger and frustration), and so to make him feel less burdened, Machiko lied and said that yeah, she was the bad one, that the baby wasn't his. I believe that Machiko really loved Takashi, and that she was trying to prove to Takashi that she was speaking the truth and still loves him by aiming at the outside of the dartboard at the end, but it hit bullseye only because Takashi was struggling with her. Isn't that a reason to lie then? The way I see it, she didn't lie to give him more agony, but to make herself the bad person.. Very interesting interpretation. If it is true, then the show is deeper than I initially thought. By making herself the bad person, by sacrificing herself, she proves that she is actually the better person. Then it speaks of how terrible the arbitration system is, judging people at face value based on observable actions/words without access, perhaps even without consideration to their more intrinsic and deeper motivations. In that case, I hope future episodes would be about some protagonist/s showing the arbiter and his superiors the flaws of the system and maybe overthrow it. |
TorribleJan 11, 2015 3:06 AM
mbdsquad said: You're misunderstanding the quoted lines. I'm not underestimating the series. What I said is simply from a neutral standpoint on a hypothetical scenario. That's why I started with "if that's the case". Ah, my bad on that one. Well, like you, I want to see varying situations wtih the games and people involved. I guess that's obvious though. |
| Very interesting anime! and i'm really surprised in this thread that someone really researched about noh masks. Sorry if i sounded geeky in this post, but i want to share what i know about noh personally. In Noh, The mask itself only shows what kind of character it potrayed. You cannot say what is the mask's expressions without a performer acting behind that mask. the white mask, most probably is a shakumi which represent the character of a middle age woman. It has a wide variety of expressions. It can be a deigan, since im not sure of the color of the eyes of the masks in the anime. A deigan mask usually represent a character supressing its feelings and and turning into non human entity. In some plays it is used as a vengeful spirit, usually the last mask the character wear before she wear that hannya mask, and in some plays the deigan masks are worn to portray buddha or other heavenly beings The red mask, is hannya which represent a female demonic ghost/spirit seeking revenge (usually because of jealousy). Usually in most noh plays that i saw the characters that wore hannya masks are defeated by buddhist monk praying and chanting, sending the spirit in some place. maybe void? But based on my limited knowledge of buddhism and shintoism, i don't think they have a concept of reincarnation. They have some kind of transfer of energy or spirit but not reincarnation |
| To much stuff to read, so i didnt read all of it. Anyways, i came here exactly to discuss what happened in the first episode. It was clearly an act of her so she could "aliviate" her husband pain into making him thinking that at least he didnt killed his own child. And, this is obviously clear with the bartender reaction, he knew what she was doing. I didnt thought about that scene that showed her with someone, but maybe she did sleep with someone else, but, one thing i am sure, she loved him, with or without cheating, i believe she loved him. About all the "four doors" that you can go, which are Heaven, Hell, Void and Reincarnation, some were really good explained here, like the Void, which people are sent to think over and over in what they do, and medidate about it, like someone said it. The Reincarnation is neutral, because, only the souls that cant be evaluated are reincarnated. Heaven are the good souls sent to rest in peace, and Hell are those sent to pay for their sins. Anyways, with this line of thought we can follow a little better on how this "system" may work, until they actually explain it, that will probably be in the last episodes. At least is a lot of fun to see how someone would react in those circumstances.| Edit: Haha, another very interesting comment. She was telling the truth, that she loved someone else, and that baby wasnt his child, because she was saying that she loved her "old" husband. The way he was in the begining, probably before they got married, and he did that misunderstanding, and we can see that in the flashbacks, with her feeling bad on how he is now, and how he was before, so in some way, she was telling the truth, and also helipng him at the same time. But, i wonder, if she was really this good, why was she sent to the void? She clearly helped him, and also "won" the game, but, was still sent to the void? If, everything she said was honestly, wouldnt be more than fair that she would be sent to Heaven? |
XadowMonzterJan 11, 2015 5:49 AM
| Really awesome discussion. I am not well acquainted with the concepts behind Buddhism, but I did some research after the episode and these are my two cents. I remember seeing the idea of void as 'Mu' from Death note, and although I agree that the show is based on the concept of reincarnation (a Buddhist one) I am not sure void=Nirvana in that sense. For me the change of masks happened because the mental state of the characters changed after the game (going from jealous, possessive, obsessed to accepting and regretful; and going from loving and ready to lead a good life to resentful and spiteful). Remembering Death Billiards, I am inclined to think that void = nothingness = not allowed to be reborn => not allowed to reach Nirvana in one of your afterlives. Basically, I interpret it as denial of suffering, but also denial of enlightenment, and I don't know if that's a bad thing or not. I think that the bar concept could be a hint to the bardo plane in Buddhism between death and rebirth where it is decided what will happen next (but it could also just sound similar coincidentally). Finally, I am still confused about the guilt of the wife, but I think that non of the scenes are her imagination, but real memories and the turning point to interpreting her change is the moment when she saw him teary, snotty and devastated, compared to his previous charming, beautiful and caring state. Don't you think our interpretations are based on our own characters - in a sense we see what we want to see, so some acquit the husband, and others the wife. |
XadowMonzter said: Haha, another very interesting comment. She was telling the truth, that she loved someone else, and that baby wasnt his child, because she was saying that she loved her "old" husband. The way he was in the begining, probably before they got married, and he did that misunderstanding, and we can see that in the flashbacks, with her feeling bad on how he is now, and how he was before, so in some way, she was telling the truth, and also helipng him at the same time. But, i wonder, if she was really this good, why was she sent to the void? She clearly helped him, and also "won" the game, but, was still sent to the void? If, everything she said was honestly, wouldnt be more than fair that she would be sent to Heaven? Right, with this idea of it, in some ways she is telling the truth... and in some ways it's lying. Lying in that she didn't really love someone else, as in some other person entirely, which is exactly what it sounds like based on the words alone right? Yet "someone else" in this case might be her husband's old self, the one she really did love and had a child with. And of course that's not something he would realize himself in that state. That said, the flashback to the bed scene? Not completely sure about that one. Maybe she really was cheating at some point, or maybe there's some other explanation. But I personally don't believe that she was referring to that person in the bed when she said she loved someone else, or that it was his child. Well that's just one idea anyway. It may or may not be right. |
Makaze_no_Moujuu said: If the Buddhist influences are expanded upon than even the concepts of Heaven and Hell are not permanent statuses. http://budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/303.htm Read this (it's not long), if you want to see what I'm talking about. "The Buddhist concept of heaven and hell is entirely different from that in other religions. Buddhists do not accept that these places are eternal. It is unreasonable to condemn a man to eternal hell for his human weakness but quite reasonable to give him every chance to develop himself. From the Buddhist point of view, those who go to hell can work themselves upward by making use of the merit that they had acquired previously. There are no locks on the gates of hell. Hell is a temporary place and there is no reason for those beings to suffer there forever." Interesting and it goes with my theory on the show as well. Now That doesn't make "the void" heaven, void will not = heaven ever I think. but Reincarnation is not a good thing ether. She may have been thinking about regret. While he was indecisive. Then going into places according to there own fate. |
PoisonedTeaJan 11, 2015 7:04 AM
| People are predicating Decim's surprise at her actions on her wanting to save her husband from pain, and on the surface it did seem so. However, there's a bed scene that goes against that explanation, and just waving it away doesn't make sense. Here's a plausible alternative: Decim is surprised by the confession because the wife might have been thinking that winning the game means something. In that situation, she wouldn't believe admitting the truth would be detrimental to her. As for the scene where she "steels her resolve" as some have put it, it could be interpreted as finally doing away with her "nice" persona, and her true feelings for her husband surfacing, as it's obvious she feels *disgust* at his present pathetic state. Now here's where it gets confusing - according to the above theory, she'll be the one going to hell. After all, the husband's feelings were the result of a simple mistake, and prior to that they were genuine. Note that we get to see only his "happy pre-marriage days" flashback. Okay. But. There's no hell or heaven. It's the void and reincarnation. Buddhists wouldn't consider reincarnation a win. I don't know if the void would be more appealing to them, but certainly it is no hell - the void means nothingness, no existence, and therefore no suffering, no punishment, no anything. Basically, it doesn't seem to me either of them "won". Decim simply choose what he thought was the most appropriate for both of them. Rendering the entire discussion pointless, I might add - according to the summary, he's the arbiter, therefore it's his choice in the end, and the game is merely there for some sort of perverse entertainment for the gods. And the viewers. :) |
Blind_Guardian said: It makes no sense to claim that the wife was lying at the end about her infidelity. Bear in mind that she was the one condemned to Hell/the Void, while the husband was allowed to reincarnate/go to Heaven. Think about what the 'game' is really trying to test, who is the crueler of the two? Who is more willing to subject the person they love to agony in order to win? That's why even though the wife wins, she's the one condemned to Hell. Not sure why everyone's trying to read so much into this, she was a cheating whore and got what she deserved. 1) Void =/= Hell and Reincarnation =/= a good thing, or Heaven. 2) How in anyway was she crueler of the two? She only won because she was ATTACKED by her husband,, which thru her aim off; the same husband that earlier showed vindictiveness in trying to get her back for her alleged cheating by causing her PHYSICAL pain via the dart game, before she talked him down. After she "wins", she isn't satisfied AT ALL, and it's the husband who tries to beat and stab her before stopped by Decim. 3) The masks have nothing to do with Heaven or Hell, as they are Noh masks. 4) We don't know if she cheated, or not, for sure. It's either: a. It's a role reversal showing her being in previous relationship, in which she was cheated on, thus allowing her to understand the pain her husband thought he was in. b. She did cheat, but she clearly cheated AFTER they were wed. All her memories of her, and Takashi, BEFORE the wedding, including her finding out she was pregnant with his kid, were HAPPY. However. once Takashi heard of "Machy's" affair (who was shown to NOT be Machiko but Machida, like Machiko originally explained, in the end credits), his insecurity wouldn't allow him to love her like she once did, thus making them more distant. Machiko said that there was "someone else she loved". If she did cheat, she clearly wasn't happy in that memory, so it safe to say that she was talking about the "old" Takashi that loved her as much as she loved him. "Not sure why everyone's trying to read so much into this, she was a cheating whore and got what she deserved." Uh...this is a psychological anime, so I'm assuming that they'd want their audience to think as they're making things ambiguous on purpose. |
Makaze_no_MoujuuJan 11, 2015 12:12 PM
| Just a thought: neither void or reincarnation are related to hell because, to be fair, neither of the 2 characters were evil. I'm thinking there might be a third outcome unrelated to the lifts which is... well... those manequins/bodies hanging behind the bar. Basically, Hell. So we know quindecim is latin for 15, so let's say there might be 15 of those hanging there and you would take one of their place should you be evil, until you are released to be, let's say, reincarnated afterwards. Silly thought but might be feasible, right? |
| Remember in the OVA when the two got in the elevator to be sent to wherever each one went? That Onna was beside Decim, seeing which door each character got in. In the credits, though, she ask Decim where which of them went. She saw the doors and the masks, but she didn't know. I think the masks doesn't mean anything. They're just misleading. |
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