| World lines are not really created, it's more like the world is reconstructed when a shift occurs. The "others" don't keep existing. Also, using the time leap machine doesn't change the world line (or just a very small change). The D-mails however, did change it. Mayuri was fated to die, so it's not like Okabe killed her. It was more like him watching her death back numerous times :/ |
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| I actually don't remember if this was explained in the anime or not, but in the VN Suzuha (after revealing herself as John Titor) clarified the real structure of the world. She said she said some lies on the net and things that could be figured out to be wrong so that she won't be found out (SERN won't go after her). So what John Titor (Suzuha) said was true, to some extent. In the future they successfully explained how the world works. The multiple-world interpretation is wrong, there are no multiple worlds existing at the same time. The actual structure of the world is similar. The Attractor Field theory (its name) says that there is only one world existing at a time. The other world lines are just 'possibilities' or 'what ifs'. When a world line shift occurs, the past, present and future of the world is reconstructed/reconfigured according to the cause (the change that caused the world line shift). So basically the world morphs into a new version (like you pick up a train and put it on a new track). The memories of the people also change, the same way. Expect for people who possess Reading Steiner (currently the only one we know of is Okabe). So basically it's not like Okabe leaves a world line and goes to an other one, it's the world that changes. The possibilities are always there, so it's like there is always a world line (or more, of course) where I get killed by a hitman and there is always one (or more) where I'm saved by you. But they don't "exist". And yes, here comes the problem and the reason why the movie can't and shall not be considered canon. It's original. The movie defied this rule/structure and fucked up what the VN/anime established. I don't want to get into the whole thing, but I'm just gonna say that Okabe jumping to an other world line like that is not possible. At all. Don't even try to make anything out of the logic of the movie :/ Yes time leaping does change the world line, but the change is so minor that Okabe's Reading Steiner doesn't even trigger. And it also doesn't appear on the Divergence Meter (it's below 0.000001%). |
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| I rewatched that part and it seems like the only really important thing they didn't mention was that there is only one world line that exists at a time. The Attractor Field theory was there, but its name wasn't mentioned. The rules of the anime and the VN are exactly the same even like this, so there is really no need to answer your question by rules that are not in either of them. The movie however, is completely original. I don't even know why the original writer(s) of the VN didn't look at it and say "hey this fucks up the rules, let's not go with this"... :( By the way, you can read about the Attractor Field theory in greater detail here (and on the next page): http://lparchive.org/SteinsGate/Update%20110/ It's directly from the VN. Physical time travel can change world lines (as you saw at the ending), but it depends on the size of the change the traveler makes of course. |
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| Well, first of all, I'm not sure what you mean when you say time leap. For me (and in S;G) time leaping is done by using the Time Leap Machine (the one with the headphones), which is more like "mental", because it only sends back the memories and the consciousness of the user. Physical time travel is when you use a time machine (like the one Suzuha and later Okabe used), it sends back the entire person. Like I said, physical time travel CAN change world lines, but it's not like it always does. It depends on the things the traveler changes. The funny thing is, the two times Suzuha went back to 1975 (after fixing the time machine) all she did was fulfill her role in the course of time. She didn't cause a world line shift either of those times. What I mean is that she already travelled back once. Mr. Braun knew the old lady Suzu even when while Suzuha was in 2010 working for the guy. She pretty much went full circle, completing her role to be the old lady that helped Mr. Braun. Of course everyone remembered Suzuha after she went back because she didn't cause a world line shift. Mr. Braun's memories weren't changed, he just remembered/found (I don't remember how it went) the letter and gave it to Okabe. After her failure in securing an IBN 5100 Okabe used a D-mail to make himself NOT stop Suzuha from going back (before the rain). This D-mail changed the world line (just like when he sent one telling himself to STOP Suzuha). In this "new" world line (and the ones after) Suzuha's time travel was successful, she secured an IBN 5100 and passed it on to Faris' father and so on. However, her time travel this time again was only her fulfilling her role of securing the IBN 5100, and she didn't cause a world line shift. The one who caused the shift this time was of course Okabe by the use of D-mail. But using the physical time travel it's still possible to cause a shift, as we saw Okabe doing in the last episodes. Time leaping (using the Time Leap Machine) on the other hand doesn't allow much changes to be made. We don't get to know the full reason why, but it probably has to do with it only sending back the memories and consciousness of the person in "almost the same" world line and not his full body. Alterations can be made of course, but not ones big enough to cause a shift. You CAN cause a shift without the use of D-mail/time leap/physical time travel. Well, not using them directly at least. We saw this when Okabe deleted the record of the first D-mail from the database of SERN. All he did was press a button this time. But by doing that SERN didn't go after them, they couldn't build a time machine, they didn't create a dystopia, Suzuha didn't have to come back to 2010 and didn't crash in the Radio building thereby NOT stopping the conference (and Kurisu's death). So of course it had to do with time traveling (done by Suzuha this time), but it wasn't directly done by Okabe. The reverse of this (the first episode) was still done by D-mail though, but we already know that. Yes, you could probably "replace a D-mail" if you are the one who goes back in time and tells the person to don't take the mail seriously, so you could cause a shift that way too. |
RazielZeroJul 1, 2014 3:26 AM
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| Small changes like one more person living in the world would probably not alter much, but it still depends on numerous things. Thanks to the Butterfly Effect even the smallest of changes could lead to a shift. Small changes themselves wouldn't cause a shift immediately, but if they lead to a very big one then it might cause one. Okabe didn't necessarily have to travel back to the present, he could have sit there and wait for it to happen. The point when the shift happened was probably around the time the thesis burned on the plane. Killing someone would probably change the world line immediately (though one person's life might or might not cause a big change in divergence, it's not a must, because he could be someone with pretty much no "importance"). It's not that they forget the person's existence entirely. Just like Titor said people's memories are altered according to when he died. So like if Person A (in the present) was at the graduation ceremony of Person B, but you went back BEFORE the ceremony and killed Person B, then if you went back to the present all that Person A would remember is that poor Person B died before his graduation ceremony. But he would still remember him. Of course if (for example, this could not actually happen for known reasons) someone traveled back in time and killed Okabe before he could ever meet Suzuha then Suzuha would kind of forget him altogether. In the movie the world line didn't shift, because Okabe didn't die. Kurisu and Suzuha also said that the young Okabe can't die there, because it's not yet his time to die. He probably got severely injured, but still survived that crash. |
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| I don't think that makes me a hero :'D Just someone who loves and thinks too much about S;G and has too much time on his hand :P But anyway, I'm glad I could help :) |
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| I don't think that Okabe seeing Kurisu in a pool of blood is bound by the Attractor Field, I think it just has to happen merely because Okabe would not send the D-mail otherwise. That's why Future-Okabe told him to not change that. I think that a shift might still occur if Okabe didn't see that scene, but I think the result would be a Beta line where Okabe went on with his life (and would either result in WW3 or not depending on the fate of the thesis). Observer-Okabe would still retain his memories, because of Reading Steiner. At least that's what I think, but I'm not sure. It depends on whether or not that scene is bound by the Attractor Field or not. I'm still not sure whether or not that past 3 weeks was really necessary. If what I just said above could happen then thanks to Reading Steiner Okabe's memories are safe, so it doesn't matter whether or not his past self goes through the same journey again. So my two ideas for this are: 1. Okabe just wanted to ensure that he doesn't change his own past anymore, that he will "always" learn never to fuck with time. He doesn't want to "forget" all that he has been through. 2. That scene is bound by the Attractor Field, that's why Okabe has to see it, and if he doesn't then it would shift the world line to an unknown outcome (probably still Beta). But I could also think of a mix of the two :/ I'm not sure myself :D |
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| That's kind of what I wanted to answer, but I guess I didn't anwer everything :D Sorry :) The reason world line shifts happen in the first place is due to the world trying to correct itself to avoid a paradox (which was caused by a D-mail or change in the past). Therefore it can be assumed that Kurisu's death scene not happening would cause a paradox if Okabe doesn't ensure that. That is if the scene really is bound by the Attractor Field (I changed my mind :D it might actually really be bound by it, so it might not be avoided in any way). But if we hipothetically say that it is not bound and it not happening is possible, then I still say that Reading Steiner is still a solution for this problem. Reading Steiner allows Okabe to retain his memories across world lines no matter whether he have experienced the things he remembers in that world line or not. This is pretty much clear through the show. For example, when Okabe first left the Beta world line (first D-mail) and arrived in an Alpha world line, he still remembered things that happened in the Beta world line, like the whole Kurisu thing. And this is the "same" as the problem/paradox we are talking about. Okabe that time changed his own past (the conference didn't even happen, so he didn't even send the D-mail), yet he still didn't forget what happend, thanks to Reading Steiner. That's why I say that even if his whole journey were to be undone he would still remember them. But yes, there is still an unanswered question here. Would the Okabe who went back to save Kurisu and (hipothetically) could avoid the whole blood scene disappear at that instant? I think he would. The world line should shift right at that moment, because Okabe shouldn't be there at that time (his reason disappears) just like Suzuha disappearing when they traveled back to the present (she didn't have a reason to be in the "present"). I'm not sure how this would affect Okabe's Reading Steiner. Perhaps the "Observer" (the Okabe we followed) would disappear, but his past self should still be able to go on (who himself also has Reading Steiner). But perhaps he would somehow be inside the past-Okabe. I don't know the answer for this as nothing like this ever happened :D But this is all hipothetical, because like I said I realized that the scene is probably a must (bound by the Attractor Field). And least that's what I think now :D But I have to think more about this. Also, just to clear something: Convergence points are pretty much things that are bound by the Attractor Field. These can be someone's death (Mayuri's for example) or big events like WW3 or the SERN Dystopia. These are things that will always happen in every world line of an Attractor Field. They are called convergence points, because it means that the world lines all converge on the same event (but of course they don't become one). The reason for their existence is unclear. Perhaps it's possible that it can be caused by a single person, like Okabe. Some of them might actually be a way to avoid a paradox, like the blood scene (this is actually not a bad idea :D). But I'm not sure why they exist. So everything said, I think Future-Okabe might have told Okabe to not try to avoid the scene because it is bound by the Attractor Field and must happen (for both world lines, for Alpha to enter it by the D-mail, and for Beta, because it is a convergence point and a part of that world line). I think it's possible that it would have happened anyway, but Future-Okabe wanted to ensure that Okabe doesn't even try to change it (uselessly) and he should just concentrate on a way to save Kurisu. That's what I think at least :/ Oh and the whole split thing just means that for pretty much every "choice" there is a world line (a possibility of course, it doesn't 'exist') where it went one way, and a word line where it went the other way. So like in most (if not all) Beta world lines Okabe might have not actually send a D-mail, or the D-mail wasn't intercepted by SERN, or whatever, but he went on with his life. I will probably re-read the whole scene starting from Suzuha arriving after the false credits, to see if I missed anything or find something that could serve as answer for these questions, because it was quite a lot more in the VN then in the anime, especially the video message. That is, I will do it when I'm not lazy :P I will try to do it tomorrow. |
RazielZeroJul 9, 2014 3:57 PM
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| No, no. I didn't mean that the blood scene is bound by both the Alpha and Beta Attractor Fields. It's only bound by the Beta. What I meant is that because it is bound by the Beta, it always gives the choice, or possibility of entering the Alpha world line (or to be clearer the Alpha Attractor Field, the cluster of all Alpha world lines, but I just shortened it). Without that event Okabe wouldn't be able to enter the Alpha world line. I know it's not bound by the Alpha because it could never happen there, I just meant that it's necessary for the shift from the Beta world line to the Alpha world line. About Suzuha: Her whole mission in the Beta world line was ensuring that 1. Okabe fails once, 2. Okabe recieves the video mail, 3. Okabe successfully destroys the thesis and possibly (but not necessarily) saves Kurisu and shifts the world to the S;G world line. And why was this mission? Because of WW3, to prevent it. When Suzuha and Okabe succeeded, the world line shifted to the S;G world line (during their travel back to the present). Suzuha and the time machine disappeared right after Okabe came out of it in the present (the anime didn't fully portray that part). The reason she disappeared was because just like she said, she can't enter the S;G world line, she doesn't have a place there at that point in time. WW3 was prevented and therefore Suzuha, in the future, no longer has a reason to come back to the present. The time machine possibly doesn't even exist in the future of S;G, because it wasn't built. She couldn't have come back then, and that is why she and the time machine disappeared. Her disappearance is also a proof that WW3 or the dystopia doesn't happen in the future of the S;G world line. As for the last thing you mentioned: Okabe could only recieve the video mail in the world line where he already failed once (it's a different world line, then the one in which they first gone back). The other world lines only recieved that weird static video. So it's pretty much not possible for Okabe to see the video mail before the first attempt. Him recieving that message would have been a paradox in itself. But if we say that for some obscure reason he could have seen the video mail before the first attempt (and saying that the recieving itself doesn't cause a paradox), then he could still do what he did at the 2nd attempt and enter the S;G world line (it just means he knows what to do). But this is just not possible, since there is no way he can recieve the video mail without doing the first attempt. That would mean that there are at least 2 world lines existing at the same time, and as we know that is not possible in S;G. |
RazielZeroJul 10, 2014 3:32 AM
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| Well yes, the real trigger was the D-mail of course, but the scene was necessary for Okabe to even send it. That's why I say it was necessary to enter the Alpha world line. Of course if, for some reason, Okabe sends a mail to Daru about Kurisu's death even if he didn't see the scene and just heard about it or something then the shift would still happen. But since the events went like the way they are now, the scene is necessary in that regard. No, I was exactly right about the video mail. Watch that part of episode 23 again. To quote myself: "The other world lines only recieved that weird static video. So it's pretty much not possible for Okabe to see the video mail before the first attempt." Okabe did recieve a message on July 28th, and he opened it (this was in the first episode). He only saw that weird static video thing (like when there is no service on the TV). He didn't do anything wrong, it was a mess, a corrupt file. However, when he arrived in the world line where he failed to save Kurisu, he could see the actual video (after Suzuha gave him back his phone). Because in that world line the sending of the video mail succeeded. How the video mail sending actually works and why the other world lines recieve it anyway? Since it was never made clear my theory is this (my quote from an other thread): Yes, Suzuha disappearing is kind of like her dying. It's sad, but she accepted it, because she knew she would be born in 7 years anyway. The show doesn't have to justify anything, this is about preventing a war that could kill millions of people if not more :/ We all know that sometimes sacrifices have to be made. And like I said it's not like she will not exist anymore, she will be born 7 years later. It isn't clear whether or not the thesis CAN burn before the plane thing with Kurisu's father, but if it can then burning it right then and there would be a huge mistake. If a shift were to happen (and it probably would) and the world line it changes to is one where Observer-Okabe doesn't have a reason to be in the past at that time (he didn't come back) then he would disappear. The reason for his disappearance wouldn't be that he didn't live through that 3 weeks and things like that, but that he probably has no reason to come back because there wouldn't be a WW3 (same as Suzuha). This is also why he must not have burned the thesis right at that time so the world didn't shift immediately. They could travel back to the present with Suzuha and the shift happened during (or more like at the very end of) their travel. Since he was already at the present where he was supposed to be he didn't disappear. Since I didn't read the spin-offs and side stories myself all I can say is what I know. In the Beta world line Okabe probably either got his hands on a copy (WW3 broke out over the thesis so it's possible that at one point it was copied and was uploaded to the net or something), or he worked it out himself. He had quite a lot of time and new a lot about Kurisu's work from the Alpha world line, so I'm sure that Daru and Okabe could build one by themselves, they are both very smart. In the Alpha world line the explanation is much simpler. Okabe, Daru and Kurisu were captured by SERN (by Moeka and the Rounders) and they were forced to work for SERN. Okabe and Daru managed to escape after some time, but Kurisu stayed there and completed the time machine in 2034 (after that she was killed as far as I know). Okabe and Daru while leading the rebellion made an incomplete time machine themselves. They probably knew Kurisu's work because of working at SERN and again, Okabe and Daru are very smart so they figured out the rest. |
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| Okay so I went back and re-read those last parts of the VN. I'm going to try and explain the things that I wasn't correct about, as well as the things you asked. First things first: In the VN it was explained that in the Beta world line Daru probably hacked SERN (after SERN gave up on the time travel research) and stole whatever information they found there (SERN) made quite a lot of progress themselves already as we know) and he and Okabe worked out the rest and completed the time machine (Daru continuing alone after Okabe's death). So that's how it was. About the video mail, I see what you mean. An explanation of why he didn't see the video might be because Mayuri came to him not long after. The mail also started with static (at least in the VN), so maybe he didn't wait because of Mayuri coming to him. Perhaps he could have watched it, but I don't think he would have followed it. He might have thought it was some kind of trick or something :/ Well it's clear that he didn't watch it because there wasn't any consequence. There was no world line shift so he probably didn't watch it/follow it for some reason or another. If he still followed it, it might have caused some major world line shift, since he might have not seen the blood scene and cause a paradox. Suzuha took his phone both in the anime (around 4:50 of episode 23) and in the VN before going in the time machine. She said it would cause crosstalk, because of 2 phones with the same number existing in one world line. Of course Okabe thought it was only because of what would happen if he got a mail/phone call. But the main reason was because it would have messed up Past-Okabe's phone receiving the video mail and they really didn't want that :P By original world line I meant the Beta world line. After coming back from the Alpha world line Okabe's first thing to do was destroy the Microwave Ophone, so that he may never use it again. He thought he wouldn't need to :/ Like I said I don't think he could burn the thesis anytime. But if he was able I think he could still burn it before the whole journey thing. He would probably disappear in the process, because just like you said he would undo the very reason he is there, but the burning might still be possible. I'm not sure what would really happen. Perhaps it would cause a world line where Past-Okabe went on with his life. I'm not sure if it would be still the S;G world line though. The not comimg back part I said means that if in the new world line WW3 is prevented, then in the future of that world line Future-Okabe has no reason to make a plan to send back Suzuha and make Observer-Okabe go back to July 28th. Therefore, why would Observer-Okabe go back to the past if Suzuha doesn't come to him, because there is no WW3 in the first place. It's the same as with Suzuha. To make it more simple neither Suzuha nor Observer-Okabe has to go back to the past in the new world line, because WW3 doesn't happen there. And since when a shift happen Okabe "replaces" (just so it sounds simpler) the Okabe that is currently there in that time of the new world line. He can't replace an Okabe that didn't come back/isn't there. He has no reason to be there at that point in time. Just like the thing with Suzuha. Kurisu could still be saved. It just depends on when Okabe burns the thesis. If he somehow burns it after saving her, then it's natural. If he burns it before... I'm not sure. I mean the thesis is with Kurisu, so I guess even if Okabe gets hold of it Kurisu would probably not visit her dad in the first place, because she would be chasing Okabe to get it back :D (until Okabe burns it of course, so that the shift could happen and so on). So, to summarize: I think that he could still burn the thesis (if it's not bound like we both said earlier), and I think a shift would occur, because of the paradox itself. As I mentioned before, shifts happen because the world is trying to avoid a paradox. The thesis would still burn, and Okabe would probably still disappear, for having no reason to be there in the past anymore. We know things like this can happen (doing something that would logically cause you not being able to do that) in S;G, because the same thing happened with the Alpha -> Beta (and vice versa) shift. He can't send any pointless mail. Echelon (SERN's system for information collecting from around the world) probably intercepted that mail, because of the strange content, saying the death of a famous person like Kurisu (at least famous in the world of science). I don't think it captures any random mail. Only when they contain something strange/interesting like that. And even this might have been just by chance. And of course it wasn't until much later that they even saw the mail in the database and realized the strange dating of it. It's not known whether or not it would have been intercepted if it was sent days later. But even if it were I don't think everything would have been "delayed", it would have gone the same way as before. Okabe would just have less time to "save Mayuri" and things like that :/ You know, you really should read the VN :D I mean maybe it would clear some things (maybe not things like this, as most of this is speculation, but still). And, well, I can see that this whole thing really interests you and makes you think a lot so why not read it? :D Depending on how fast you read it would take around 30-50 hours at max. |
RazielZeroJul 14, 2014 5:59 AM
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| Pretty much every D-mail could be used as an example, but the easiest to explain it with is the very first D-mail. As we all know the D-mail gets intercepted and is later found by SERN, they capture Okabe and the gang, etc-etc, dystopia is created, Suzuha goes back in time and crashes into the Radio building preventing the conference from being held. See now? Okabe sent a D-mail which essentially, in the long run, prevented his own reason of sending the mail. If the conference doesn't happen he doesn't have a reason to send the D-mail, but if he doesn't send it the conference takes place and therefore he still has to send it in the end, and so on and so forth... So yeah, things like this can happen as we see right here. The Alpha -> Beta is pretty much the same thing, but reversed. Okabe deleted the mail, therefore the conference was held, but if it was held then he doesn't have a reason to later delete something to prevent the dystopia, because it doesn't even happen since Suzuha doesn't come back (well, not for that reason anyway). On the Kurisu thing it's still just guessing on my part, but yes, it would probably be something like that. If he burns it right there Nakabachi might still try to hurt/kill Kurisu even if he won't even remember Okabe being there and burning the thesis. However if it is burned earlier then they might not even meet. At least hopefully Kurisu wouldn't be hurt by her father even if she still meets him, because he wouldn't get angry over the thesis (and Kurisu being a better scientist). The mail intercepting was probably just because of her being famous as a scientist, they didn't know anything about the future. Well, yes, some things might get delayed, but general things like people meeting Okabe and Suzuha wanting to leave should remain the same I think. But these as well depend mostly on when Mayuri's death happen. Because for example Suzuha going back was during those days. The deletion of the mail would still be some days after. Mayuri's death, and the cause of it (SERN finding the D-mail), might be delayed, but I'm not sure. I don't think he would fail, he would still be able to shift the world line back to the Beta sooner or later. Of course it's worth it! I watched the anime first as well, yet when I read the VN I was still like "OMG, this is even more awesome!". It's longer with more explanation (even a glossary), achievements, more endings (some choices for the other female characters), fully voiced of course by the same people, some scenes that were cut out (like the one about Nae that was only shown in the movie for a second or so) and a very, very beautiful art style (characters, background arts and CGs, all of them). Just read it, now! :D |
RazielZeroJul 14, 2014 4:39 PM
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| By people meeting Okabe I meant that when we first saw some new people (new for Okabe as well) like Moeka and Suzuha. There is really no reason for them to "arrive" later into Okabe's life. What might happen though is that Okabe is suddenly supposed to know Suzuha, because in the alpha world line they might have already met when the shift happened. Suzuha ran away once after they couldn't find her father, you know, that was the day with the raining that damaged the time machine and when Okabe stopped her. And like I said, this happened some days before Mayuri's death, so it's possible it might get changed if Mayuri's death is delayed, but maybe it wouldn't. But now that I think about it, there might be something that could (but not necessarily) change a lot. Okabe meeting Kurisu in the alpha world line during that other conference or whatever that was when Kurisu held a speech. But this might also not change since even if Okabe shifts the world later the alpha world line should still go the way it was, and Okabe should still meet her and later she would just appear at the lab. The whole reason I think he wouldn't fail is because of his desperation to save Mayushii. I believe that he would still try to find a solution no matter how much the circumstances change. One possible thing that could hinder this is what you mentioned. If SERN finds the D-mail sooner they might raid the lab before the Time Leap Machine could be completed. That could cause quite a lot of trouble :/ He would still be able to complete it. But as I said before, I don't think there would be a delay like that. And even if it could happen, we know it didn't. Okabe traveled to the present as he planned to. If the delay would have happened I'm sure there would be some kind of sign of it. The delayed Okabe wouldn't even want to travel back to the present to the same time as Observer-Okabe in the first place. He would travel back to the 5-days-later present where he arrived from Alpha. |
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| Sending a D-mail 5 days later would still result in the same world. The result of the D-mail should still be the dystopia and the time machine crashing in the radio building. It doesn't affect the world in any other way other than SERN perhaps finding the D-mail later and by that Mayuri dying later. Sending it later should only really decide the time of the world line shift itself happening. And if the world is the same then a lot of things should have already happened in that world line like Kurisu coming to the lab and them experimenting. Okabe would just be weirded out over the fact that Kurisu is there. If she is there, that is. She might not come there if Okabe doesn't shout with her in the conference hall about her being supposed to be dead, and he shouted with her because he already came there from the beta world line. If he "originally lived there" in the alpha world line then he has no reason to start shouting with Kurisu over her being alive. So that might actually cause some major changes. Not delays, but a major difference since she isn't there in the lab and she would have no reason to go there. This might actually be a wholly different world line, not even alpha :D About the delayed-Okabe time traveling and stuff: I said: "The delayed Okabe wouldn't even want to travel back to the present to the same time as Observer-Okabe in the first place. He would travel back to the 5-days-later present where he arrived from Alpha." I was talking about him going back to the "present" and not back to the past. Him going back to the past is of course the same date as Observer Okabe's, July 28th. I meant that after doing what he needed to in the past he would probably travel back to the present, just like Observer Okabe, but he would probably go to 5 days later than Observer Okabe, because in your theoretical situation he arrived back to the beta world line (from the alpha) 5 days later due to his delay. So naturally he would want to go back to the same time he arrived from alpha. Okabe failing and stuff: He would have no reason to be building a time machine in the beta world line without experiencing the alpha world line in the first place. He probably has no idea they even have a time machine-like microwave without ever sending a D-mail. He would be just living his life. Though you still need to take in mind that this world line should be changing to the S;G world line when the thesis burns. And as we know Okabe should be sending the D-mail before that to ensure that the burning could happen in the first place, setting everything in motion. |
RazielZeroJul 20, 2014 8:54 AM
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| Sorry for the very long reply, I've been busy with a few things lately :/ I'm actually not sure about the first one. I've been thinking about it, but I'm still not sure whether he would appear in the "default" alpha world line or one where a D-mail already altered the world line. I think both of these outcomes are logical, but I'm a bit more inclined toward the "altered by D-mail" one. If that happened then yes, what you said about failing would probably happen, since he wouldn't know a lot of things that happened before he arrived. I'm also not sure about what would happen if its during the time leaping :/ But just like I said these things might not even occur since Okabe wouldn't talk to Kurisu in the first place. So that thing about the experiment continuing might not even happen either :D Yes Mayuri's death might or might not be delayed, depending on which world line it is :/ I don't think it was mentioned what she was doing in 2000. In the beta world line she first went back to 1975, then to 2000, then to 2010. We know that from Suzuha herself (she mentions it before the Kurisu saving attempts). I think she also mentioned that she went back to 1975 to get an IBN, she probably needed to secure one there as well so that later Daru can hack into SERN to get their data so they could build a time machine (like I said earlier). But I don't know why she stopped in 2000 :/ Perhaps it was Okabe himself who told her to stop there and post stuff on the internet to come full circle :D We might never learn the truth... No it's 2015. I've also seen some places where they say it was in 2025, but it broke out in 2015. People might have confused it with Okabe's death, or they might have thought that Okabe died during WW3, which isn't true. |
RazielZeroJul 30, 2014 7:06 AM
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| About the IBN: Yes it might seem strange, but this is not the first time a loop like this happened. Just think about Suzuha always crashing into the radio building which was essentially caused by Okabe sending a D-mail in a completely different world line (beta). Or an even easier is the origin of the divergence meter. It's an endless loop without a beginning. The reason this is possible is the reconstruction of the whole world happening during a world line shift. Past, Present and Future all change at once, allowing things like these endless loops to happen. Then again, this was only a theory from me, though I still think this is the reason she went back in the beta. Well, it was 2015 in both the VN and the anime (the text message was shown there as well). I'm quite sure that's the true year. Like I said, people probably confused it with Okabe's death or that he died during it or something. I haven't seen the original japanese text in the VN, but I don't think they made any mistakes. What I mean was that without seeing what his first D-mail did and later slowly realizing what the microwave can do he would never make one in beta as well. There is a chance that he would still somehow discover the power of the microwave by an accident similar to the first D-mail. So he might realize it or might not. And even if he does we can't know if he could build a time machine without learning some of the things he learned while working with Kurisu in the alpha. Or they might not even try to hack into SERN without knowing that they even had anything to do with time machines, because in beta they weren't really involved in WW3. So basically he might try to make one, but I doubt it, at least I think it has a small probability. I don't think the blood event is fully restricted, even if it's bound by the attractor field. It might be similar to Mayuri's death, which was also pretty open with the method as long as she died... So the blood event could maybe also happen elsewhere, as long as Okabe sees it and sends the D-mail. He wouldn't just disappear if he takes Kurisu away, only if he takes her so far away that her father can't kill her, then he would disappear sooner or later. After that, Past-Okabe can see her, it doesn't matter, because he isn't gonna send a D-mail anway, unless she somehow dies in another way and thus Okabe sends the D-mail. Then again, I think the scene is bound by the attractor field, so it must happen in some way, shape or form. |
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RazielZero said: So the blood event could maybe also happen elsewhere, as long as Okabe sees it and sends the D-mail. Read more at http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1209487&show=20#MBJBwgEHIvdPJhhu.99 It would have to happen there at where it happened due to: 1. The origin of which Okabe(the one who heard the scream) heard screaming from the other Okabe. 2. That might be the place where Nakabachi and Kurisu agreed to meet. |
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damastah said: It would have to happen there at where it happened due to: 1. The origin of which Okabe(the one who heard the scream) heard screaming from the other Okabe. 2. That might be the place where Nakabachi and Kurisu agreed to meet. What I'm saying is that even if it is bound by an attractor field it might allow some changes to be made to the scene, as long as it still happens. Like I said the same things happened with Mayuri's death. She could be killed by the Rounders, hit by a car, hit by a train/subway, die of a heart attack and so and so forth. The means doesn't matter as long as the result happens. The scene even allowed changes like Okabe being the killer and Okabe actually saving her and just making up the scene. I'm sure it could also allow changes like it happening elsewhere. Maybe by Okabe taking her away and somehow Nakabachi seeing them and going after them. The screaming could probably also happen in that other place. I'm not saying it would be too far away, because Okabe still has to hear the scream and/or find the scene and of course it shouldn't be too long after the original time. |
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| Future-Okabe said himself that there is an attractor field converge there. He could have been wrong, but I don't think so. He didn't say for the scene itself specifically, but about Kurisu's death, or more like that it's not a must that she dies, but Okabe seeing that is a must. So basically I think that means the scene. Also from what we have seen or know so far I don't think it's just coincidence that things went the way they did, and we don't have proof that everyone would do exactly the same thing always. I don't think Kurisu would rewrite the thesis if it was burned by Okabe. I mean I guess she would realize that there must have been some meaning behind a "madman" just burning it :D But this whole thing could be just avoided by Okabe doing what he did in the end, by making sure it burned on the plane. And I guess if he would have chosen to burn it himself then he surely would have told her not to rewrite it and hope that she will listen to him by sooner or later remembering what happened in the other world lines or something. Or he could just tell her what her father would do and again hope that she believes him :D I'm sure that if the location could change then it would also not break the loop. And if it did change then the Okabe would later has to come back would also remember the new location. I'm glad I can help people :) I'm really just doing it so that people don't get the wrong idea that "S;G is full of plot-holes" and things like that. And of course to explain things to those who couldn't fully understand parts of the anime here and there :) I hope that I don't seem like just some die-hard fanboy to people...trying to protect his precious anime :/ |
RazielZeroAug 10, 2014 2:26 PM
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| It doesn't really matter when Okabe arrives if we are talking about Kurisu's memories. The reason she remembered him is because Reading Steiner can be found in everyone, to some degree. Kurisu didn't completely lose all her memories from the shift, and the emotional meet with Okabe (plus the thing he said) drew out some of her memories. It wasn't explained when the shift happens, but I think it's when the paper burns on the plane. That happened probably some minutes before Okabe's arrival in the present (from the trip with Suzuha), because Nakabachi was giving that interview after arriving at the airport from the flight. The burning happened shortly before landing. I think the reason they still safely arrived was because the shift happened during their travel. For some reason they could still complete the journey (perhaps the shift couldn't stop the journey altogether) and the time machine along with Suzuha disappeared in an instant (Okabe mentioned this in the epilogue, that it disappeared right after arriving). If for some reason Kurisu would rewrite the thesis (and would still have the intention of showing it to her father) then Okabe probably wouldn't disappear even after burning it, because his reason for coming back would still exist, even if not at that moment in time, but later. I'm not sure if Kurisu would remember Okabe if he just disappeared right before her eyes. But like I said, this is precisely the reason Okabe didn't just burn it right then and there, but made sure that it would later burn on the plane. He didn't want to risk Kurisu rewriting it, and I'm sure she wouldn't after what happened before the blood scene. Also, Okabe said in the epilogue that even if Nakabachi would remember parts of the thesis and would try publishing/using it, Kurisu would most likely stop him. The scientist society would believe her more than her father. So I'm sorry, but I really don't feel like making theories about what would happen in another situation, because this exactly is why Future-Okabe didn't want to do it this way, he didn't want to try playing guessing-game :D Well, I'm sure Nakabachi stealing thesis must happen (it leads to the blood scene after all), and I guess there could be a convergence point around him boarding the plane. I mean the most logical way to go to Russia (Moscow, to be more precise) from Japan with the thesis is by plane. |
RazielZeroAug 18, 2014 5:00 AM
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rikshi30 said: Thanks for answering everything. When i first created this thread i didn't think i would get a single reply but thankfully you proved me wrong. You have been a huge help thanks for everything. I'm glad I could help. I should also thank you as well. Your questions/theories also made theorize/think about parts of S;G that I didn't before, and I also learned new things as well thanks to this :) PM me or write in this thread if you have any other questions or just want to talk about S;G in the future ;) |
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| Yes, it seems like I've kind of misunderstood your question. Sorry about that :) Memories are not transfered, because they are rewritten (according to cause and effect) when the shift happens. But some of the memories (or all, we don't know) are still kept deep in the brain. If you wrote it like that just to be clearer then forget this :P All versions (past, present, future) of Kurisu or Daru could essentially remember what happened in the alpha. BUT only up to the point they are at in the timeline. So if we are talking about Kurisu during the conference (July 28th) then she could, at that point in time, remember things that happened in the alpha world line till July 28th. She can't remember things that would happen later. If we are talking about Daru in the beta world line when Okabe arrived back there (August 17th, if I remember right), he could remember things that happened in the alpha world line till that date (so around the point Okabe deleted the D-mail from the database). When the shift happens the memories of all versions (in all times) of people get rewritten and, at the same time, some (or all) of their old memories are stored or relocated to a deeper part of their brain. |
RazielZeroAug 29, 2014 6:00 AM
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| That is the flaw of Reading Steiner. Okabe's fully-evolved/complete Reading Steiner (I don't know what word to use :D) completely keeps his memories of the previous world lines intact, and his memories don't get rewritten. At all. He doesn't get new memories (so he can't remember the past of the new world line, like Akihabara being an electronics disctrict of Tokyo), but he can keep the old ones, thus he can recognise the changes from the previous world lines. It's both a blessing and a curse... |
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| Oh I see what you mean now. I've encountered this problem before, but never really gave it much thought. This might actually be the only faulty part of the anime/VN. His past and future selves should remember things when a shift happens, and not just present-Okabe, and would probably act accordingly. His future selves can be explained, because they are pretty much a projection of present-Okabe and "they" remember what Okabe has experienced in the other world lines. Future-Okabe could also remember, so there is no problem there. His past selves, on the other hand, are not as easy to explain. It's either an error on the author's part, or something that was not explained (perhaps Reading Steiner has some parts we don't know about or maybe it has something to do with him being the "observer"). I hope I can find a solution or a theory for this. I don't want to see S;G having a fault :P |
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