Kill la Kill
| So it was explained that those buff covers are harder to defeat because they have a host from which they feed off and because of that they can also move independently from original life fiber .On the other hand I presume that when the original life fiber dies that the rest of other life fiber made cloths will die as well and also we still didn't have a single death in the whole anime until now. |
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| There's a strong feeling in the fandom that Senketsu is their father's will/soul, who he created so that he could protect his daughters after his inevitable death. This idea greatly adds to the possibility of his death, if it's true. Another character who is at great risk of dying is Satsuki. She is not as strong as Ryuuko, if only due to her status as a regular human, and she would be an extremely tragic death if they went that route - considering that she just recently reconciled with her long lost sister. Satsuki is literally having a death-flag-raising party in the latest episodes. |
| "Evidently... There's no such thing as 'meaning' in this world. But that in itself is wonderful... isn't it? Since if there isn't a set meaning, then you can just find one on your own." - Filicia Heideman, So Ra No Wo To |
| Satsuki better not die. She is the best girl :( |
Heredity said: Thing is, he didn't need to intentionally do that - he was already being hunted by Nui and Ragyou for betraying them. He needed to make something to protect Ryuuko in case she got involved and he could no longer keep her safe - either due to death or some other reason. We don't know yet if Senketsu is Isshin's will or soul or anything of the sort - but it would have good impact. She's been trying to learn more about her father, and was actually with him the entire time. It'd be touching at the very least.unless their father intentionally got himself killed in order to become one with Senketsu, then that's really far reaching. BRSxIgnition said: Satsuki is literally having a death-flag-raising party in the latest episodes. it won't happen. Junketsu is actually probably the most likely death, probably after s/he finally connects to Satsuki just as Senketsu has connected to Ryuuko. About Satsuki, her death would have MUCH more of an impact than Junketsu's. She's been through so much, failed a few times, and finally found family who she loves and is loved by in turn - killing her now would be a great move by the writer. (But dear god, I don't want it to happen... No no no no no.) Killing Junketsu would do nothing to improve the show. People would like the fact s/he's dead, but they wouldn't feel anything past that, and it would push Satsuki's character down a notch since she'd be less capable than before. I'm looking at it from the writer's and Audience's perspectives. |
| "Evidently... There's no such thing as 'meaning' in this world. But that in itself is wonderful... isn't it? Since if there isn't a set meaning, then you can just find one on your own." - Filicia Heideman, So Ra No Wo To |
BRSxIgnition said: About Satsuki, her death would have MUCH more of an impact than Junketsu's. She's been through so much, failed a few times, and finally found family who she loves and is loved by in turn - killing her now would be a great move by the writer. (But dear god, I don't want it to happen... No no no no no.) It's an odd feeling isn't it? Just like how in Gurren Lagann: |
| Powerful eyebrows. |
| Hopefully Ryouko will die, I don't care for the sailor uniform. |
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| I hope he doesn't :( |
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ollythirteen said: BRSxIgnition said: Heredity said: Thing is, he didn't need to intentionally do that - he was already being hunted by Nui and Ragyou for betraying them. He needed to make something to protect Ryuuko in case she got involved and he could no longer keep her safe - either due to death or some other reason. We don't know yet if Senketsu is Isshin's will or soul or anything of the sort - but it would have good impact. She's been trying to learn more about her father, and was actually with him the entire time. It'd be touching at the very least.unless their father intentionally got himself killed in order to become one with Senketsu, then that's really far reaching. BRSxIgnition said: Satsuki is literally having a death-flag-raising party in the latest episodes. it won't happen. Junketsu is actually probably the most likely death, probably after s/he finally connects to Satsuki just as Senketsu has connected to Ryuuko. About Satsuki, her death would have MUCH more of an impact than Junketsu's. She's been through so much, failed a few times, and finally found family who she loves and is loved by in turn - killing her now would be a great move by the writer. (But dear god, I don't want it to happen... No no no no no.) Killing Junketsu would do nothing to improve the show. People would like the fact s/he's dead, but they wouldn't feel anything past that, and it would push Satsuki's character down a notch since she'd be less capable than before. I'm looking at it from the writer's and Audience's perspectives. Killing Satsuki would do nothing to improve this show. In fact, killing any of the characters (good or bad) would do nothing to improve this show (though, obviously the bad guys will die. That's expected so won't do much to improve this show). Like Satsuki's apology and the two sisters' reconciliation last episode, it would lack impact and meaningfulness simply because the characters are just too shallow. They aren't human. Satsuki for example does not waver AT ALL throughout this series. She does not show weakness, despair or any other emotion despite all the things that happen to her (not much, though). She is single-minded from beginning to end, with this turn-around feeling written in more as a plot than as a story development (there's a difference). Hard to care if someone like that dies when you don't feel their pain or struggle through them (their actions, their expressions, their beliefs etc). Trying to go for the heart-strings of the viewers NOW when they had ample opportunities throughout the show's run would come off as...ugh, just no! Heredity said: BRSxIgnition said: Killing Junketsu would do nothing to improve the show. silent characters finally gaining their voice has always been a subtle plot piece in the entertainment industry. Satsuki finally gaining the ability to communicate with Junketsu, and then losing it soon after (say, the final episode) would do way more than just killing off Satsuki. killing off Satsuki after finally getting to see her cute side would probably piss of more people than it'd touch. Again, this would have no impact at all simply because there's been little information given about either character. Satsuki is Satsuki, cold, calculating and determined with her mother probably being the cause for how she turned out. Junketsu is Junketsu a ravenous beast. That's about as much as the writer has given us to go on. There's been little to no foreshadowing of a gradual change in either character. We literally can't track Satsuki's change from cold despot to apologetic older sister. Meanwhile Junketsu has shown no signs of intelligence. Why should we care if Junketsu suddenly talks to Satsuki? What would cold, calculating Satsuki have to say to wild beast Junketsu and vice versa? We don't know how Satsuki treats him during battle but when he isn't being worn he's nailed to the wall. There's been little effect Junketsu has had over Satsuki for good or bad besides taking a toll on her. No change in her affection towards him or his towards her. Nope, no impact, in fact it'll have a negative effect. Not only that but it would be kind of a Plot Hole just like Tsugumu hearing Senketsu talk a few episodes back and now suddenly he can't hear him anymore. Satsuki hearing Senketsu talk would've had more impact as it could have been used as foreshadowing regarding her and Ryuuko's sisterhood. But with shows like this it's best not to think too much otherwise you'll start to notice inconsistencies (there are just too many to count) and how many things the writer should've handled better. True, true.......if you have been paying zero attention -_- From day 1 (more like episode 3) we've seen signs of Satsuki's changing demeanor. A random girl shows up with what appears to be a one-up on Satsuki, and what does she do? She loses her cool and opens her wedding dress which alerts her mother to her actions. Mako and Ryuko make a fight club so what does Satsuki Ojou-san do? She lets them play it out to teach Ryuko a lesson about human nature, but once Ryuko successfully counters it (or Mako more appropriately), what does she do? She smiles. She acknowledges something (not outright of course cause that's not her nature), she viewed humans to be as wrong. Right before the Grand Sports Culture thingy, she has a heart to heart with her butler recognizing how she's changed to achieve her goals. Someone else said this, but I think it is a good point: Satsuki had to become something more than human to defeat her mother. She had to create an image of herself as a superpower because facing the monsters that are her enemies would break any normal human before they could even show any sort of resistance. In that sense, the fact that she had to hide her emotions, and repress her doubts only to let them all out in the last episode actually works in her favour to make the audience sympathize (except those who haven't been paying attention of course ;). Here is a person who has been built up to be more than human, the epitome of immovable do something that every human being has had to do at least once in their lifetime: admit that they were wrong. And this is besides the point, but character inconsistency =/= plot hole. Sure it is a problem, but not one that cannot be defended or explained in the extreme. Actual plot holes are irreconcilable. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
ollythirteen said: You are right. Those things you mentioned (Satsuki smiling after being proven wrong, Satsuki's conversation with Soroi etc) could be classified as character development. "Could be". The problem again is the amount of information given. Before episode 7 we were given no inkling that Satsuki wanted to be proven wrong about humans. Not in passing conversation, not in expressions only we as the viewers saw, not in internal monologues. So basically: you want to be spoonfed? You don't want to apply your mind to interpret what a character is thinking by their actions? Because I think it's a very simple point that's almost impossible to miss. You'd have to be sleeping to miss that. The bigger question is why did you think she smiled? Because she let out a fart and had a chuckle at it? We SAW that she thought lowly of them (through her words) but there were no signs that she wanted/hoped to be wrong. Again you wanted a: "prove me wrong Matoi Ryuko! Prove me wrong in front of the students I have spent years building an image of perfection in front of!" "Wreck it and in so doing wreck my plans as well!" The other scene you mentioned was just a "telling" rather than "showing" moment: "Oh, Soroi, I've changed haven't I?" We never saw what she was like before the change (other than that flashback with the wedding dress speech) so why should her mentioning this impact us? Again, too little information to be considered character development. In the previous point you complained you wanted more telling than showing. Now you want more showing than telling. Make up your mind my friend! Telling and showing go hand in hand, and second hand accounts from people closest to the characters always carry extreme weight. To miss that is to miss a fundamental of character development. If you want 3 episodes dedicated to a single character's flashback with minutes on end showing nothing but their thoughts, you will never be able to discern the thoughts of people in real life. About Satsuki becoming more than human to defeat her mother, once again we Ollythirteen does not see this. Fixed. Not everybody has the habit of not paying attention. We see her mother is a psychopath, and we see that donning Junketsu takes a huge toll on Satsuki physically, sure, but uh oh! Ryuuko was the one who made Satsuki put on Junketsu, NOT Ragyou. So this second point, which could have been used as a point of personal identicfication with Satsuki (basically the ol doing what needs to be done trope) was nullified by Satsuki's reason. Again you prove my point. Ryuko's appearance on the scene clearly CHANGED Satsuki's composure, and you just admitted to it. You're destroying your own argument for me ;) We find out that Satsuki does not like to be bested when she goes to put on Junketsu after seeing Ryuuko wearing Senketsu but that was a major character hole because (1.) Satsuki's apparent jealousy has all but vanished throughout the show's run and therefore can't be considered a character trait or development and (2.) if Satsuki is supposed to be as single-minded as she's been set up to be in the beginning and all show long, her acting so rash for so petty a reason was out of character. Now you're just confusing yourself. Are you implying that jealousy is something that should last forever? Satsuki shouldn't even have a chance to change? People change all the time. Also, like I explained in the first post, her acting rash was because of extenuating circumstances and completely in character. To say a character is only one way and never allowed to change is to have an erroneus view of the world. Satsuki's jealousy was gone once she realized that her skills were still far above Ryuko's. To still be jealous of a person you discover is inferior to you is silly. In fact, no: if we'd seen that Satsuki prided herself in being number one, Ryuuko arriving with Senketsu made her jealous and then that jealousy drove her actions for the rest (or most) of the show THEN we could consider it character development. Again we see "for the rest of the show," implying that a character can never change a decision or trait. Again, completely erroneous view, just like you changed your argument in the very next paragraph following it. We see how the character was and then we see the event that changes him (Okabe Rintaro, "Steins;Gate"). We see how the character was and then we see how other characters CHANGE them (Clare and Theresa, "Claymore"). We see how influential the character was and then we see how the character's need for control changes the character (Griffith, "Berserk"). Character development involves giving enough information. Kill la Kill doesn't do that. All that is already based on the erroneous idea that character development =/= change. Newsflash: It doesn't. Character development entails far more than that and change is hardly a factor in it anyway. Change is unnecessary unless the situation demands it, but what IS necessary is building up a character in the first place. A distinct personality, thoughts and beliefs, likes and dislikes, ambitions and goals...those are the things that define a character and the entire point of character development. Change is as important as a character's hair colour (trivial). |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
ollythirteen said: @ RedRoseFring, I think (1.) You have Character Development confused with Character Building (2.) You've missed the whole point of my post and (3.) You clearly didn't read some parts lol Character development is character building. There are three components of good characterization, character building, character development and character arc. Character Building is STAGE ONE of good characterization, the bare basics. This is where you give the character their external traits, (despot, cool beauty etc) and internal traits (jealous, determined etc). With Kill la Kill this is where they established Satsuki as a despot (external trait only) Character Development is STAGE TWO and has equal importance to STAGE ONE and THREE. Firstly, no RoseRedFring, Character Development DOES involve change and change in a character IS important. Very much so. After all the traits of a character (external as well as internal) have been established EVENTS begin to happen to the character that gradually change their outlook/belief etc until they emerge completely changed by the end of a series. Bull crap. Anyone will tell you that a character does not need to change unless completely necessary. That puts basically 90% of characters from the top characters page and from every medium including TV and movies on a list of bad characters. That falls more along the line of character inconsistency. Talk to any good psychologist and you'll find out that a person's character, habits and traits are pretty much set by the time they enter adulthood, and it takes extreme circumstances to have a 180 degree turn. That's basically getting a completely different person, and it's not something anyone can turn on and off at a whim. Now we come to the final part of good characterization, STAGE THREE the Character Arc. This is where the viewers/reviewrs/critics, after the show has been completed, can then piece together every POINT or EVENT that led to the character's gradual and eventual change. Taking it all together, as an example, Satsuki could have started as a despot, her constant brushes with Ryuuko could gradually have changed her outlook and by the end of Kill la Kill Satsuki is no more a despot. Again, completely unnecessary. It's like saying time must be taken out at the end of the series to study how the character's hair style changed from the start to the finish. Did they change a bun to braids or so on. Once again, change is unnecessary unless the situation requires it, and even then it's not just any 'ol situation that changes a person, but extreme ones, which is why we have "life-changing events" only a handful of times in an entire lifetime, not every other sunday, and stubbing your toe doesn't change you from an introvert to an extrovert. And as for you not reading properly: I stated that RAGYOU was NOT the one who drove Satsuki to rash action. It was Ryuuko. How did you read otherwise??? So...what's the point of that? It only serves to prove my point that Satsuki changed when Ryuko came along. You're now confusing your own argument :/ Also when do we see Satsuki change into more than a human being to oppose her mother? When she's gathering the elite 4? Pffft, please. That's external. Satsuki changing into more than a human being implies INTERNAL CHANGES. From her being a sweet little girl to the cold, calculating character we see before us. Again we do not see this. We are "told" by her, though (Soroi conversation). And the very event we could have used i.e. her donning Junketsu, something that can help her kill mommy while also killing her at the same time, was nullified by WHO spurred this action and also her REASON for taking such an action. This last point could've been used as character development: "oh my god Satsuki wore Junketsu to fight her mother despite the fact that she could be killed by it. She's so brave" Again you beg to be shown, so I guess all dialogue should be cut from the show, because hearing about a character's attributes does not give you an idea of what a character's like. Hearing a man's wife describe him leaves you completely blank, while any other person will be able to draw a picture of the man from that alone. In the end, you are still asking to be spoonfed. You don't want to draw conclusions yourself, you want to be fed conclusions. Also, I see another problem of yours: you're putting words in my mouth. I did not once say that Satsuki put on Junketsu to beat mommy. I have no idea where you got that from. And I was not implying that jealousy should stay with Satsuki throughout the show. it would certainly have made her an infinitely more interesting character if emotions so petty were getting in the way of her ambitions, though. Or at least more human/relatable. Now you are falling into the trap of defining a character as what YOU want them to be, not who they actually are. Satsuki does not give a damn that you want her to be weak like any other human. Her whole ambition is to go beyond that. To ask her to be the very thing she's trying to escape is simply a regressive expectation on your part. And how the hell can you state that change is hardly a factor in character development when a few lines above you were arguing about me implying that Satsuki is not allowed to change? I was arguing to show you that even in your erroneous definition of character development, Satsuki still has it. Change is not necessary, but Satsuki does change (unless you fell asleep in the last episode where she even states it herself). PS I don't see it any where me complaining about wanting more showing than telling. Oh, you're forgetting your own posts now? Well, here you go: "The other scene you mentioned was just a "telling" rather than "showing" moment: "Oh, Soroi, I've changed haven't I?" We never saw what she was like before the change. You are obviously complaining that you want "showing" moments rather than "telling" moments. You must really hate narrators then. Good thing KlK doesn't have any. |
RedRoseFringMar 16, 2014 2:58 AM
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| This is getting ridiculous. :x |
| Powerful eyebrows. |
ollythirteen said: @ RoseRedFring, Most of what you stated are your assumptions ('You want to be spoonfed"/ "...what YOU want the character to be" etc.) Nope. I even quoted you as evidence. You yourself complained that "it was more "telling" than "showing"". You complain that not enough information is given when it clearly is and you just choose to ignore it. And if we're talking about "Character Development" change is EXTREMELY necessary. It's like PLOT DEVELOPMENT. Plot development involves how a plot develops over time (no brainer). Character Development involves how a character develops over time (no-fucking-brainer). The key words are "Develops' (i.e. grows, changes, whatever other word that implies change) and "Time" (In the case of Kill la Kill over the course of 24 episodes.) Again: No. Am I to gleam that you are an introvert today, an extrovert the next day, a megalomaniac the day after that, a pervert the following day? Of course not! Your character is basically set, and unless something comes along to change it, it will remain the same. To expect a loud, abrasive character to become gentle and loving the next episode when nothing causes them to borders on lunacy. I don't see how such a world could ever survive. You need a "cause" for an "effect". And in case you didn't know, words have different meanings. Space is defined as an empty area around you, but also the vacuum outside our planet. Am I then to conclude that the space program refers to a program to rearrange items in my house to create space by its first definition? Of course not! In the same way, development has more than 2 meanings. Googling it will give you the result that "development" is also defined as: 2. the act or process of creating something over a period of time or 3 the state of being created That being said, you can simply interject the meanings into the phrase and get character development = the state of creating a character, or the act or process of creating a character over time. Let's use you as a real life example. You, RoseRedFring, are NOT the same person you were when you were 13 (assuming you're not 13). You do NOT have a lot of the same thoughts and beliefs you did then. Perhaps at 13 you believed that girls have cooties (work with me here). Now, after interacting with them over the course of a few years, dating a few, being dumped by a few, getting into bed with many etc you are now Charlie Sheen Incarnate. That 13 year old kid who avoided girls before now actively seeks them out. He has changed as a person OVER TIME (for better or worse is a matter of opinion). (Again, just an example) That example falls apart when you use a child who has not yet developed all their future traits and completely come into themselves. Now, ask if I am pretty much the same from when I was 17 and had a better grasp as who I am, the answer is yes. And even in your example, 13 year old RRF was not isolated. An outside force: the girls he encountered, was necessary to change his views and perceptions (not to mention the hormones that prod all humans to copulate ;) Characters do that in shows all the time. No, GOOD CHARACTERS do that in shows all the time. A good character can become bad and vice versa. It is not about it being necessary as that is just contrived plotting (just like Satsuki's apology in episode 22). It is about how the characters are affected by the story and how the story is affected by the characters. It IS about it being necessary, as that is what defines its importance. Would you say that having a beard is more important in defining a human than their DNA? Of course not! It is not a necessary trait and does not come into the matter when deciding if a person fits the definition of a human being or not. Interesting characters, DYNAMIC characters are changed over the course of a piece of entertainment. You (1) give them traits to establish their character (2) give them beliefs to make them take action and (3) conflict arises pitting the character against their own beliefs. "I'm am mad scientistu, secret organisations, woohoo!" Bang, childhood friend rekt! (story happens to character) "Fuck, I have to save her!" (character changed from delusional to determined) I hope we're clear now? Now you're defining "interesting" the way you want to. A character does not have to change for me to find them interesting. Any character with a distinct personality is interesting to me. A character who's thought processes I can glean and who's reactions to certain situations I can basically predict. For your point (3) Pitting a character against their own beliefs is fine, but a character who adheres to their beliefs in changing situation is regarded as more grounded than one who is so wishy-washy to change with every challenge that comes their way. Okabe is one of my favourite characters, and the change we see in him is completely fine because the situation demanded that change. Now, complaining that Okabe didn't change from episode 1 to episode 8 is silly because nothing had yet happened to make him change in anyway. So saying he is a bad character for the start of the series and only becomes a good character when his situation changes is ludicrous. He was a good character even before the whole fiasco started. In many senses, one can say that that is a good character. A character who's convictions are not changed so easily that any 'ol speech would change them. That is one of the biggest complaints for series where the villain changes their mind simply because the hero gave them a speech. |
RedRoseFringMar 16, 2014 3:59 AM
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
ollythirteen said: @ RRF, And now we are saying the exact same thing! Nope. You are saying character development =/= change. I'm saying it obviously does not. What started this? Me saying that Satsuki's death would lack impact. Why do I believe this? Because her character is not developed enough. Expand a little? We are given little information to be able to track her change from despot to apologetic older sister. What's missing? A direct link between events of the show and Satsuki's change! What's missing is that you weren't paying attention to the show. Barring the fact that change is unnecessary unless the situation calls for it, Satsuki did exhibit change, but you missed it because it wasn't stated explicitly for you (except it was by Satsuki herself in the last episode). That is character development! A character does something and something else happens. Cause and Effect. Something happens to a character and that character does something. Cause and Effect. Nope. From above: the act or process of creating a character overtime, or the state of a character being created. As a lot of stuff happens there is a gradual shift in the character's personality. OVER TIME. Not instantly, as you suggested that I was suggesting (mouthful). So what is this "OVERTIME"? 20 minutes? A day? A week? A year? Which of your fundamental traits have you changed over the last month? Have you stopped finding your favourite anime entertaining? Or did your taste in genres do a 180 over the last week? We do not see the CAUSE of Satsuki's change from innocent little girl to despot. Why should we care as much if she dies while ultimately succeeding? Stated explicitly in the anime: "Clothes are taking over the world!" You most certainly could not have missed that. To claim that now would completely destroy your credibility. I believe that the CAUSE responsible for Satsuki's change and eventual apology to Ryuuko (seeing that the world is beautiful despite incomprehensible things as stated by her as opposed to as seen by us) is WEAK. Of course you do. You weren't paying attention. You couldn't even tell that that was a change for Satsuki until I told you. So we are back to the point that you want to be spoonfed. And finally I don't believe I am alone in believing interesting characters undergo change. Of course you're not. There are 7 billion other people on the planet. What's more interesting a mary-sue or a Tony Soprano? Neither a Mary Sue nor a Tony Soprano have anything to do with change. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| I don't think Kill La Kill will end in some dramatic way, I imagine that it will end in a good way where all will live happily ever after, nobody will die, even Senketsu, IMHO. We'll see. |
ollythirteen said: @ RRF, wow, your passion is really getting in the way of your reason. Firstly, stop making assumptions. Assumptions like what? I made claims and backed them up by even quoting you. You on the other hand are claiming I'm making assumptions, but not backing up that claim or giving reasons for it. It's clear that something is getting in the way of YOUR reason, but I can't begin to imagine what would make you abandon it to insult a Japanese cartoon :p Secondly, Google "Character Development". I don't think you know what it is (that counter definition you gave was wrong) You gave me a link in your following response, and the definition is pretty much the same as that that I gave. Now you are contradicting yourself again. Also, I was the one who suggested you google the definition because I'm already well aware of what the first couple of Google responses say. Thirdly, change happens whether you like it or not. This is a fact of life. Unless you've a one-dimensional personality, are a sociopath, live an insular lifestyle, are depressed and therefore too wrapped up in yourself to care about others, extremely selfish or just emotionally unintelligent and even in-spite of all these things... ... BEING AROUND OTHERS CONSTANTLY WILL AFFECT YOUR WILL. LIFE ITSELF WILL AFFECT YOUR WILL. Duh! That's why I fail to see how you could even suggest that Satsuki doesn't change, or begged to have it spoonfed to you when all the signs are there, and we even hear it from the mouth of the camel. And over time (weeks, months, years, DAYS, HOURS, AN INSTANT) this will result in a gradual shift in some if not all your ideals. Hence my 13 year old RRF analogy. It happens to real people (some people's lives and POVS are changed in a moment. an example would be an innocent person who commits an act of murder. His view on the value of human life will change almost instantly). Now we're getting somewhere! Now: can you give me an example of a change in your fundamental personality that happened over the last hour? Have you grown an extreme dislike for something you initially loved to death? Has one of your best friends become your mortal enemy? Better yet, here is an even more relevant question: What kind of change where you expecting from Satsuki between episode 1 and 2? Did you expect her to suddenly embrace Ryuko with loving arms and dismantle the school? But wait a minute!...you even suggested "HOURS" for change! So what change did you expect in Satsuki WITHIN the first episode (that covered a day or so, plenty of hours for you to choose from there). Why is change unnecessary for made up characters? Silliest thing I've ever read. It is unnecessary just as a human being does not cease to be one because they did not change their personality over a week to suit your bizarre tastes -_- In case you do not know: People do not change their fundamental personalities on a whim, or because Oprah tells them to. We don't classify every single thing as a "life-changing event" because those are rare and come once in a blue moon or over extended periods of time. The silly expectation that one of my introvert friends should become an extrovert because I give them a slice of pizza is completely bizarre. Heck, people have to undergo therapy for such things because personality is NOT an easy thing to change and can't be simply altered at the flick of a switch. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
ollythirteen said: PS RRF, Tony Soprano and Mary-Sue have EVERYTHING to do with change. The main theme of The Sopranos was whether the sociopath main character could change. MAry-Sue is a trope used when describing perfect characters who are UNAFFECTED (un-changed) by situations they find themselves in. PPS, the cause of Satsuki's change was NOT "Clothes are taking over the world!" It was her fucked up childhood. Which we only catch glimpses of/are told about. Anyway, Google "Character Development". Mary sue: Mary Sue is an idealized character representing the author. Change has nothing to do with that definition, and may I say that it is silly to try and twist a fundamental definition just to win an argument when Google is at the fingertips of anyone with a computer. -_- But wait! A Mary Sue does not have a concrete definition, but here is the closest thing from TV tropes: These traits usually reference the character's perceived importance in the story, their physical design and an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature. Once again, change has nothing to do with it. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
ollythirteen said: @ RRF never mind, follow this link: http://writers.stackexchange.com/questions/2974/what-does-character-development-actually-mean and read the first response. Then read the response that follows that one, paying attention to the word "characterization". I guess the problem was the context. However, given that the TRUE origination of this argument came about because I stated Satsuki's lack of character development will make her death (if it happens) lack impact, I don't think any confusion should have occurred regarding whether "character development" was being used interchangeably with "characterization" or what I've been banging on about for more than I should have. Then that makes the entire argument pointless because "character development" according to that definition of change plays no part with sympathizing with a character. An unfortunate thing happening to a character being disregarded just because the character did not change to suit your standards is silly. Bringing a character to life and having knowledge of their habits, thoughts and ambitions is far more important for sympathizing with them. A character changing or not has as much impact on my empathizing with them as the colour of their hair. Kamina did not change in TTGL, yet many people will tell you his death was the saddest point of the series. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
ollythirteen said: @ RRF, I don't know how many times I have to remind you that the reason we are here is because of my saying Satsuki's death will lack emotional impact because we don't know her enough, don't have enough information on her and didn't experience her change right along with her. You're wasting your breath (figuratively speaking) because I never said you didn't say that. I have already shown that we DO know more than enough about Satsuki as well, and you simply were not paying attention. This is not about being spoonfed. This is not about my standards (projection much?) Every example (very silly one involving an introvert and pizza) you've given and question you've asked regarding a change that I underwent over the course of an hour, Satsuki changing in the first episode etc is nullified by two sets of words I've used over and over and over again: "Gradual Change" and "Over Time". You said with your own mouth, and I quote: "And over time (weeks, months, years, DAYS, HOURS, AN INSTANT) this will result in a gradual shift in some if not all your ideals." YOU yourself gave "HOURS" and "DAYS" as suitable time to witness these changes, so why are you contradicting yourself now? The first episode of KlK covers several hours in the series' world, so why can't you give examples of these "changes" you were expecting? Make up your mind! It's hard to follow a person who changes their argument every second. If you're trying to prove your point by making 180s in your argument, you're doing a poor job. I don't know how many times I have to use these words for it to sink in that Kill la Kill HAD TIME. 24 episodes worth to properly develop Satsuki's character into someone who when she turned around in episode 22 it would ring true and when she died (if that happens) it would hit HARD. And it used it brilliantly. Of course you weren't paying attention so you missed most of it. A shame really. I even gave you examples of how change could be gradual (the 13 y/o RRF one) or instant (innocent commiting murder). But like I said you're either not too smart or smart enough but too defiant to actually listen to reason. That example was easily shot down because you were using a person who's identity and knowledge had not fully come to be yet. Speak of a 18 y/o RRF and the answer to your question was "Yes", there was no such change in his fundamental ideals over the next 3 years of his life. And even the change in 13 y/o RRF involved an outside "cause" to make that "effect". And the change I keep talking about has more to do with ideals, goals and ideaology NOT set personality traits. These things (ideology, goals, beliefs etc) are more flexible than you think and susceptible to outside forces (situations and people). Didn't Naruto want to become strongest Hokage? Why has his goal switched to chasing Satsuke (or whatever his name is)? You're killing your argument splendidly. Naruto's goal never changed, and rescuing Sasuke IS part of his goal, as "from the horse's mouth): "How can I become Hokage if I cannot even save one friend." Naruto has grown for 2-3 years, yet his fundamental ideal has not changed. KlK does not even cover nearly as much time, yet you expect Satsuki to become Mary Poppins? And again: NO. Ideologies change, but not every day. Neither do they change every week. In fact, the shortest time for such a suitable change of ideologies is probably a month, but even then it would not be every month, but vast periods of time between each change. An ideology a character has held for many years is not so easily changed at the flick of a switch, especially when no outside force is applied to it. How do you expect someone who has only ever heard of 1 ideology to change to another one when there are no other options present. I'll say this for the last time and I hope it sinks in: Change does not come WITHOUT an external factor to induce that change in belief, ideology or whatever else in a person. To suggest a person change when there is no reason to change is lunacy. Satsuki's ideology was "People are pigs in human clothing!" Suddenly in episode 22 she thinks the world is beautiful and apologizes. What made her change her mind? Incomprehensible beings? Of whom was she speaking? Mako? The elite 4? Ryuuko? No, no and no. This is priceless! You're making my point for me. Most of the time I was saying you weren't paying attention as a joke, but you REALLY weren't paying attention. The "Humans are pigs" idea was shut down when she saw that even Mako and her family could overcome their greed. When Ryuko showed that her determination was not so easily shattered. You must have missed half the show to be oblivious to all that! How did episode 1 Satsuki ("pig human scum!") turn into episode 22 Satsuki ("la la la the world is beautiful, weeee")? HOW?! What caused the change? WHO caused the change? Ryuuko? Soroi? Elite 4? Mako? The Mankashoku family? Nui? Hakodate? All of them my inattentive little friend (and you your exaggeration of Satsuki's change still only serves to prove my point ;) I know you're smarter than you let on. I know you like this show. I would have extended you the same compliment, but I'm not so sure anymore. You are blatantly ignoring the obvious to try and win an argument, and changing said argument on a whim when it is shut down. I can only hope your response does not take us around in a circle again and make me answer things I've already answered a dozen times. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| To answer the original question (sorry, some of these posts are tl;tr), I think it is possible that Senketsu might die however, I think Satsuki might die, just like there is a possibility that Ryuko could die because she has life fibers existing in side of her. So its really up the in the air. Specifically for Satsuki though, this episode really showed her development even with smiles, apologizing and showing so playfulness her speech. Seeing her next to Mako at dinner and exclaiming how the food was good was also touching. I mean as Ryuuko, when was the last time she was in a huge party of people having fun...that didn't include a battle or drinking tea by herself. The final thought comes from from the butler telling her to take care of her sister. Satsuki is still wearing a re-tailored Junketsu and is human with no life fibers inside of her - so she is still vulnerable. I hope she doesn't die however, but this episode could have been the last bit of light before her exit. As for Senketsu, he is the weapon agains the life fibers, so there is a possibility that he will need to be sacrificed in order finally cancel out the other life fibers. |
| I don't think he will but who knows he could. |
| Poor Senketsu in the end he was the only one to die :( |
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