Sabo is just a punching bag

Mikasa said:
He almost had the perfect flashback and story, then Oda pulled another Deus Ex Machina and revived him post timeskip.

Adampk said:

His flashback was his introduction. U don't make any sense since the entire flashback was written to introduce his character which was not really present before.

Mikasa said:



Less is more. Belle-Mere died during her introduction, so did Jaguar. I don't see how this is controversial a concept.

Adampk said:

yes, it is since sabo introduction structure is different.

Belle mere and jaguar are characters from a main characters past explored. both stories were building up to those flashback. nami and law were new characters whose motivation and action were mysterious and the flashback and it's character is just explaining that.

sabo is different, that flashback was written to introduce sabo into main story which was not previously alluded. That entire flashback become as good as filler with no narrative purpose if sabo is actually dead. Since obviously luffy characterization didn't really need or allude that flashback at all.

Mikasa said:


No it's not, the same thing that you describe about Nami goes for Luffy. You just manipulated the narrative in your headcanon to make Sabo the equivalent of Nami when in fact he's the equivalent of Belle-Mere.
Luffy loses Sabo
Nami loses Belle-Mere

Adampk said:

u didnt answer why there is a need of Goa kingdom flashback though at that point. sabo equal to nami was not the point. Belle-Mere flashback is needed to explain Arlong arc, Jaguar D. Saul is needed to explain Enies Lobby Arc

Mikasa said:


To explain the Post-War Arc... Literally as Jinbe asks a crying Luffy... and that triggers the flashback...

Adampk said:

What does post war has to do with Goa kingdom?

edit - ok, forget it. no need to answer. Just realised how absurd that Logical Fallacies sounded. u will probably say something like sabo flashback was shown in post war, so it explains post war and i will loose some of my brain cells. shouldn't have quoted u in the first place.

Adampk said:

What does post war has to do with Goa kingdom?

edit - ok, forget it. no need to answer. Just realised how absurd that Logical Fallacies sounded. u will probably say something like sabo flashback was shown in post war, so it explains post war and i will loose some of my brain cells. shouldn't have quoted u in the first place.

Mikasa said:


Same thing that Ohara has to do with Enies Lobby.

Also you're falsely using the fallacy fallacy.

Adampk said:

yes, sure. Ohara has nothing to do with enies lobby or buster call or nico robin capture which had occured in enies lobby arc.
next time, I will watch with eyes closed to understand ur point of view

Mikasa said:


and sure, Goa Kingdom has nothing to do with the Post-War or the WG's actions and loss of close ones because of them, nor with Ace the focus character that linked both arcs.

Adampk said:

Goa kingdom has nothing to with post war (which is basically about luffy sending message to his seperated crewmates) and also has nothing to do wg's action. It may have to do with ace, but Goa kingdom flashback is not really ace story either...he is just a included character like how he is included in wano flashback. Sorry, I forgot to close my eyes

ColtBuntline said:
@Adampk
@Mikasa

Even if Sabo never appeared again, the Goa Kingdom flashback would still make sense by itself. The main purpose of the flashback was clearly to show the origins of Luffy and Ace, and what they experienced as they grew up and made their resolutions together, which was a bit necessary in order to explain why the loss of Ace was so bad for Luffy. And Ace's death became even more impactful and sorrowful due to how Luffy thought he had already lost one of his two "brothers" when he was a kid, and that Ace was the only one remaining until he died. So it made it even more clear how important it was for Luffy to become stronger during those two years so that Luffy can protect his new comrades so that they don't end up like Ace and supposedly like Sabo.

Sabo's introduction was only the secondary purpose of the flashback supposing that he would become a relevant character among the revolutionaries. But the fact he had survived had already been pretty much confirmed by how in chapter 589 there was a speech balloon on the same panel with the ship of the revolutionaries in which someone gives order to hurry up with the treatment (of wounds), which can be inferred to be referring to Sabo considering the context. So his reappearance after the time-skip wasn't really a "Deus Ex Machina".

Adampk said:

if it was really about ace, it would have been related to gold d Rogers or associated flashback. Not Goa kingdom whose nobility is sabo. Indeed ace was given a huge role since his death in prior arc to expand his characteristion and make parallel with sabo so he can have a entry as his substitute. it's a interesting way to introduce a character and it not really about dues ex machina. but regardless that story is written to introduce sabo that was the primary purpose. Goa kingdom would have been something else entirely and would have been told prior or inbetween marine ford instead of post war if it was just to for ace and luffy childhood.

anyways dues ex machina is not what we are discussing here. what we were discussing was sabo death was intentionally set up in that flashback to introduce him into the main story.

ColtBuntline said:


What I said about it not being a "deus ex machina" wasn't to you, but to Mikasa; I was just replying to what he wrote in his first post in this thread. I don't have to limit myself to just write about what you're arbitrarily determining as what "we are discussing here". Don't be autistic.

But yes, the flashback really was mainly about Ace and the creation of his bond with Luffy, which hadn't been shown before. You just think that the main purpose of the flashback was to introduce Sabo because you personally didn't care much about Luffy and Ace's childhood, how they became "brothers", and the impactful experience they had (the loss of a "brother") which led them to make the resolution to become strong and become pirates when they turned 17. Saying that the flashback wasn't Ace's story is just preposterous considering how a war had just been made for his sake and Luffy was mourning his death; It's obvious that Ace was the focus of attention. Comparing this with his appearance in Wano's flashback is just ridiculous considering how small his appearance in Wano was, and also the great difference of context.

And keep in mind that it also served as a means to explain why Luffy doesn't care about social positions (such as who is or not a "noble"), so in any case it was part of Luffy's character development.

Ace and Luffy never had any contact with Gol D. Roger, so no, the flashback really couldn't be about Gol D. Roger. The flashback was about the childhood of Ace and Luffy; Sabo came as an extra.

There would be no reason for Goa kingdom flashback to be something else entirely even if Sabo were to die and never to appear again; That's the interesting tragic story that Oda came up with to explain Luffy and Ace's childhood, and there would be no reason whatsoever to change it.

Your argument that it would have been told prior or in-between marine ford doesn't make sense. We are talking about a serialized manga, and not about a book that is completely published with all its chapters at the same time. Oda wrote those chapters when he came up with the idea to write them. It may somehow be argued that it wasn't told at the proper time, but I don't think that's the case at all anyway; I think the story of Luffy and Ace's childhood together was all the more touching to read precisely because it was told right after Ace's death, so the readers already knew that Ace would die in the future.

Using your logic, then if the main purpose of the flashback were to introduce Sabo, then it would have been told only just before or in-between Dressrosa, but no: It was told a long time before it, when the focus of the series was on Ace.

ColtBuntline said:
@Adampk
@Mikasa

Even if Sabo never appeared again, the Goa Kingdom flashback would still make sense by itself. The main purpose of the flashback was clearly to show the origins of Luffy and Ace, and what they experienced as they grew up and made their resolutions together, which was a bit necessary in order to explain why the loss of Ace was so bad for Luffy. And Ace's death became even more impactful and sorrowful due to how Luffy thought he had already lost one of his two "brothers" when he was a kid, and that Ace was the only one remaining until he died. So it made it even more clear how important it was for Luffy to become stronger during those two years so that Luffy can protect his new comrades so that they don't end up like Ace and supposedly like Sabo.

Sabo's introduction was only the secondary purpose of the flashback supposing that he would become a relevant character among the revolutionaries. But the fact he had survived had already been pretty much confirmed by how in chapter 589 there was a speech balloon on the same panel with the ship of the revolutionaries in which someone gives order to hurry up with the treatment (of wounds), which can be inferred to be referring to Sabo considering the context. So his reappearance after the time-skip wasn't really a "Deus Ex Machina".

Mikasa said:


In a two-hour movie, having someone rise from the dead after a few minutes is a deus ex machina. Just because One Piece is so long that the time between two moments seems relatively short doesn't negate the DEM.

Adampk said:

if it was in between dressrosa it wouldn't be a introduction, it would be a dues ex machina or ass pull since it would be like sabo appeared out of nowhere.

Goa kingdom flashback revolve around sabo is just straight up fact since all the conflict that happened there was related to sabo, both luffy and ace are outsiders. Even if u remove ace, Goa kingdom plot still works similarly. but if u remove sabo, a new plot is needed. Also story arc related to gol d Rogers doesn't mean he needs to be present and meet them. (they made entire wano without luffy meeting oden)

Anyways no point in arguing more. no proper discussion can be ever made with people whose replies with words like autistic.

ColtBuntline said:


Yes, but One Piece is not a two-hour movie, so it's more fair to consider it according to its length.

And it was basically revealed that Sabo was alive just one chapter after the one in which he supposedly died. And he didn't even appear dead when the ship was attacked. It was left uncertain for the reader whether or not he died because of what happened on the ship, and then what the revolutionary said on the following chapter just served as a hint that guaranteed the possibility for Oda to make Sabo reappear in the story in the future without it being a "Deus Ex Machina".

I would call what happened a "Deus Ex Machina" situation if Sabo had appeared alive and well in front of Luffy and Ace in the flashback itself after they had mourned his death, as a means to give the flashback a happy ending, or if the revolutionaries had only appeared in the story out of nowhere just to save Sabo, but considering how Oda had already told the readers beforehand that the revolutionaries were around and had contact with Sabo, and also considering the fact that Sabo's survival was announced in a very subtle way, without any warranty that he wouldn't become a disabled person, and without even having his name mentioned, but just having a revolutionary giving order to treat the wounds of someone, I don't really see it as a "Deus Ex Machina".

In fact, Sabo lost his memory because of the damage he suffered, so the blowing up of his ship may not have caused his death, but it really had a serious consequence.

Mikasa said:


And that is irrelevant. Asspulls are asspulls regardless of such 'optical illusions'