Is Ainz evil?

Skelux said:
Despite showing some characteristics of both neutrality and evil, he is also bearing good fruits, in the form of a peaceful and safe kingdom for the people he doesn't murder in cold blood.

xShinigami3125 said:
It all depends on you point of view and how you define "good" and "evil"

duhu1148 said:
This too.

Good and evil are about perspective. If you had a magic button in front of you which would kill your entire family but ensure that war, murder and disease never occur in the world again, would you push the button? 99% of people wouldn't, so does that mean 99% of people are evil?

Himura-Kenshin said:
You judged Ainz on Demiurge's actions, knowing that Demiurge is far superior in terms of intellect, and thus cannot be predicted in action by Ainz. Also I have not seen one concrete example of Ainz's "evil" actions, thus causing me to hold true to my statement of his neutrality.

Himura-Kenshin said:
Being evil is defined as "profoundly immoral", and since the guardians view of morality is so different from the people outside of Nazarick, there (again) is no justification to call Demiurge evil.

The_Maenades said:


Here is the root cause of our disagreement. I don't know if I can explain it properly though...

You are taking up the viewpoint of the people inside nazarick.

I am taking up the viewpoint of the people outside nazarick.

The definition of "profoundly immoral" can change from group to group, and from person to person. This is why the answer to the question "is Ainz evil" can change from group to group, and from person to person.

Himura-Kenshin said:

Well there really is no definition for morality, so both viewpoints could definitely be argued. Although it is impossible to image Ainz's situation, due to the sudden removal of his empathy towards all of humanity.

xShinigami3125 said:

No it means 99% of people are selfish

The_Maenades said:


Ah, but there is a definition for morality, it can be found here

However, the root word of immoral is not morality, it is moral

I don't think either viewpoint needs to be argued, they are both undoubtedly correct to their respective holders.

Himura-Kenshin said:
Well then the argument becomes a paradox, due to each of the definitions focusing on some sort of righteousness/correct behaviour. As this is has no concrete definition that does not rely on human emotion, there can be no correct answer, unless there is one person on earth.

KRKodama said:

But Ainz still has human emotions and empathy towards humans, just not as much as before.

Himura-Kenshin said:
No he doesn't, he states multiple times that he feels absolutely nothing where humans are concerned, and was even amazed at how little he cared when he . He has emotions, they just aren't directed towards people.

KRKodama said:

He does.

Himura-Kenshin said:
I disagree good fellow

KRKodama said:

Like I said, he got carried away. The thing is that he gives more importance to game than to human lives. But when he is in stable mind state he always deludes himself finding an excuse to save the humans while also giving benefits to Nazarick. Also, the example that you used was in a war, so it was quite natural for him to kill so many people just like numbers. And when I say that he got carried away, I'm referring to his monologue, that clearly showed how he was having fun as if he was playing a game and just killing the mob. But in a normal situation he would not think of humans as just mob. The novel made it evident many times that he doesn't like the way how Albedo and Narberal see humans as nothing.

Himura-Kenshin said:
Albedo and Naberal actively hate humans, Ainz just doesn't care, but he sees their contempt as alarming because he was once human, so he sometimes feels as though it could apply to him. In regards to him considering it a game, would that not prove that he has no empathy for them? Does one feel sadness for a duck after going hunting? There might be more ducks that a hunter could easily kill, but he does not slaughter them all with a machine gun. Why? Because anybody with human emotion would feel that it was needless killing, they wouldn't get "carried away" and murder all the ducks, just cause it was just so fun to kill things with no effort. An undead being who has no qualms about crushing the bugs beneath his feet as long as it achieves his goal has the luxury of getting "carried away", thus showing that his goal is held in priority over hundreds of thousands of human lives. Ainz easily could have simply stayed in Nazarick, and traded goods in an attempt to secure diplomatic relations with the people of this world, yet 9 volumes later he simply slaughters all those who oppose him. He doesn't mind having a few humans around, but if they all started a simultaneous revolt, there would be no more room for humans on this world. Would the Momon of earth slaughter a bunch of people, even if there were no repercussions for his actions? Probably not, and yet here he is, plowing through people just to make his guardians think he's got this world-domination-thing all planned out. He does not consider them as anything other than fodder, which is why it was so easy for him to lose control.

(For the record, I believe that it was more or less planned slaughter, in the sense that he knew that there were going to be many deaths, and he was going to keep going until he was satisfied with the reaction. I disagree with the notion that he got carried away)

KRKodama said:

Does a general in a real life war, in any age, feel no empathy for humans? He does, but still takes pride on his actions by crushing the enemy army as something awesome and heroic, since he is doing it for his own army. And yet, the same general would feel empathy for human beings, other than the ones of his own army, in real life situations, not indiscriminately killing other humans regardless of whether he would be punished or not for his actions. The same goes for Aiinz.
I definitely think that the Momonga of Earth would slaughter a bunch of humans. Just like many other people already did through the whole human history. When people have a lot of power, they get carried away, especially when they have the justification for doing it for their country, for example.
And, like I said in my previous reply, I don't think he would keep making excuses trying to convince himself and the other Nazarick members that they will really have a profit by saving and helping so many humans in all the volumes if he hadn't any empathy towards humans.
Also, I do feel empathy towards ducks and other animals, just like any normal person I wouldn't normally be able to kill them. Let alone killing them in a game. In my opinion, the more similar another species is to ourselves, more we will fell empathy towards them. I don't feel so much empathy towards insects, for example, but the feeling is still there.
We're saying for argument's sake that the Nazarick members aren't humans, but from my point of view they are also humans, even if they are not really humans, they still have a whole characterization of a human being, so it's okay to consider them as human characters.
What about the other supreme beings? They are genuinely 100% humans, and Ainz thinks about them all the time in a perfectly humane way, and sees them as equals.
I definitely think that he became a lot more colder and indifferent because of the skeleton's setting, but rather than saying that he has 0 empathy towards people, it's more fair to say that he just gives a lot more priority and importance to the members of Nazarick as his dear family than the rest of the world. Which is not really an unnatural thing, since it's the same with normal people in real life, and Kings and Emperors loving and commanding their nations and being indifferent to the lives of the other nations if it's really necessary to kill those lives for the sake of their own nations.

Himura-Kenshin said:
I don't agree with the comparison of Ainz to human generals and leaders. A general or a leader is nothing without their army/following, whereas Ainz can easily kill every human in this world single-handedly.
Ainz used to be human, but he now only feels compassion for other undead creatures. Calling the residents of Nazarick "humans" quite literally destroys the definition of humanity. The Guardians/Supreme Beings are gods. Humanity in this world has an entirely physical definition due to the fact that these other beings exist. I forgot Momonga's original name, but I meant that I do not believe for a second that he would have the steel to commit such a task against human beings on earth.
Ainz sees the other supreme beings as equals, due to them also being gods. He now does not consider himself human, and sees those equal to him on the same plane.
I believe that it is natural to care for one's family, and that one might even sacrifice (if you were fickle) hundreds of people you do not know just to save someone you love. For Ainz it is an entirely different thought process. He does not see people as equals, but rather as objects in a game. He is willing to trade hundreds of human lives to fix a minor inconvenience for his guardians (letting Demiurge take a bunch of people from the kingdom). Would any person with a shred of empathy trade hundreds of lives if their brother said they needed humans as test subjects because they were bored? No. But would many make that trade if it was for hundreds of bugs? It's possible. Ainz cannot have empathy for something he no longer understands, or even considers a part of himself.

KRKodama said:

There's really no mistake in my comparison of Ainz to human generals and leaders, not only because there have been really awesome generals, especially in Japan and China, who could single-handedly kill many people, but also because we can compare the use of an army with the use of a skill in Ainz' case. And to command a pilot to drop a an atomic bomb. It doesn't really matter who is the one who is in fact doing the action, it's still responsibility of the general who commanded it.
Not really, he still feels compassion for other creatures, including normal human beings, as is clearly shown in all volumes.
The residents of Nazarick can also be considered humans. It doesn't matter if they are Succubus, Vampires, or whatever. I'm not talking about body structure, I'm talking about feelings, and they clearly have the characterizations of human beings, so our definitions of morals definitely apply to them as well. They are not Gods. Being a God means to be all powerful and perfect, which is not true, as they also have their limitations. Shalltear is stronger than Ainz and she still failed.
I understood what you meant, and I meant to reply saying that Suzuki would definitely be capable of slaughtering humans too. I said: "Just like many other people already did through the whole human history. When people have a lot of power, they get carried away, especially when they have the justification for doing it for their country, for example." The difference between Ainz and Suzuki is that Suzuki didn't have the power to do whatever he wanted, but he has as Ainz.
Again, they are not Gods. And Ainz hasn't even seen any of the other supreme beings since he became a Skeleton. All he has is the memory of when they were 100% human beings, and he thinks of them as dear equal friends, which confirms that he does have empathy for human beings. Period.
No, he does not see them as just objects in a game, except when he is really into the game. But he normally doesn't. Even Narberal, who keeps calling human insects, felt sympathy for Evileye in volume 6. Yeah, sure, Evileye is actually a vampire, but this is a minor detail, she still counts as human here.
As for your question, yes, definitely, depending on their character, they would trade hundreds of lives to use as test subjects, and we already had an example of it in the real world. And this is a valid argument that @The_Maenades used to claim that Ainz is evil. Demiurge is definitely evil, since there's really no humane justification for his cruel experiments, and Ainz is responsible for turning a blind eye to it.
I still do not consider Ainz as evil overall, but he is still being evil towards those people who are test subjects.
Also, Ainz definitely understands other humans. He is not dumb. He still carries the common sense that he had when he was Suzuki. And he can still treat with respect people who are not from Nazarick. He just became colder than he used to be, that's all.
And "empathy" is not a natural function of human beings. It's a social construct, and depends on the education and life experiences that each person had. Ainz still has the personality of a human being, and carries his memories that he had before becoming a skeleton, so he definitely has empathy for human beings.
The comparison with "hundreds of bugs" is not a valid comparison to begin with, since humans can't directly communicate with insects through talking. Saying that Ainz no longer understands other humans is a poor excuse to defend the innocence of his actions. He clearly can talk to and understand everyone in the Overlord world perfectly well.
And why are you forgetting the way how he decided to help Tsuare? Sebas was trying to convince Ainz to save her, while Demiurge was arguing against it. Demiurge is much smarter than Sebas and Ainz, and Ainz knows it. If he really did everything calculating only the benefits of Nazarick without any kind of empathy for human beings he would have approved Demiurge's proposal and kill her in the spot or send her to the experiments farm. But ultimately, Ainz remembered the way how her younger sister Ninya died in volume 2, and his humanity told him that the correct decision would be to follow Sebas' proposal, and then he saved Tsuare to repay a debt to her younger sister.
There's really no logical reason for you to think that he has no empathy towards humans, when he clearly has.

Himura-Kenshin said:
Fair enough, he has at least a minimal amount of empathy towards humans. I still don't think he is evil in regards to the original discussion. You have convinced me of Ainz's empathy, but would you consider him neutral on the morality scale?

KRKodama said:
Yeah, neutral is indeed a fair way to classify him. And I think it depends on the point of reference.

The_Maenades said:


I am just curious which characters from the story of overlord would consider Ainz to be a neutral alignment?

Himura-Kenshin said:
^You must be fun at parties

Rance-sama said:


How can you accompany morality to a person who's more or less playing a VR game? He's not "good" or "evil"

The_Maenades said:
He is the bane of literary debate parties!

sorry this post is completely off topic

Himura-Kenshin said:
It's literally the same as writing an essay discussing whether a character in a novel was "just". You discuss whether his actions portray him as someone with morality. Not sure where you're confused here.

Rance-sama said:


How can you accompany morality to a person who's more or less playing a VR game? He's not "good" or "evil"

KRKodama said:

Perhaps you could consider that possibility if the story was narrated completely from Ainz' point of view, just like you can also consider the possibility that everyone in this real world(including me) is just a NPC programmed to interact with you(yes, you Rance-sama), who is the only person in the world who really exists, since during your whole life you can only see the world through your own point of view, and never from the point of view of another person to know for sure whether the rest of the world really has a consciousness or not.
But it's confirmed that the characters in Overlord are, in fact, real individuals, and not just NPCs because it shows their psychological descriptions, what exactly is going on in their heads, what they are thinking. The mistake you're making here is that Ainz is not the center of the Overlord universe. He is the protagonist, since he's the character with the most importance in the series, but, at the same time, he's just one of the characters whose story is being told. The narration shows the thoughts of Ainz, but also shows the thoughts of all the other main characters in each volume too.
The Nazarick members, other than the Supreme Beings, used to be NPCs when it was just a game, but now they are real. It's a completely different real world now. All the humans who appear in the story are genuinely real and natural to that world, and were already living their lives there since before the Overlord story even started. Ainz is definitely not just playing a VR game.
Ainz, himself, can still have some doubts as to whether he's just playing a very realistic game or not because he can only see it from his own point of view. But we, readers, don't need to have any doubt about it because we have direct access to their points of view, their consciousness.

ancapichun said:
He is Chaotic neutral.
In fact, I think that all nazarick fits in that term

duhu1148 said:
He, and the rest of Nazarick, are villains. That is part of what makes Overlord special, to me at least.

Just because you aren't needlessly cruel doesn't mean you aren't evil.