| Before you ask I chose this club because I saw a couple of vids of Draconis and he seems to believe in objective rating or he think his opinion is objective . I wanted to post this in the uber-elitist club but they don't consider themselves as ''elitist'' or people who believe that anime can be rated objectively according to their little disclaimer. So I am interested how do members of this club define objectivity and how is your rating objective? |
| I don't understand how people get so confused about my use of the word "objective." I'm not saying that my scores are absolute facts--I'm saying that I'm using facts and observations to back up my ratings (and statements/claims too). It means actually being able to support your conclusions properly. Being able to logically separate what it does right and what it does wrong and assess it accordingly. Subjective rating (in its dumbest form) is when your thought process just goes like this: "Hmm. I like it. I thought it was cool. 8/10! |
| Video rants & stuff: Top 12 Heart-Wrenching Scenes in Anime | DraconisMarch Video Club |
| Oh I see so your rating is mostly subjective just not as dumb as some people basically. |
Arararraragi-kun said: No. But if that makes you feel more secure, you can interpret it that way for yourself.Oh I see so your rating is mostly subjective just not as dumb as some people basically. |
| Video rants & stuff: Top 12 Heart-Wrenching Scenes in Anime | DraconisMarch Video Club |
DraconisMarch said: Arararraragi-kun said: No. But if that makes you feel more secure, you can interpret it that way for yourself.Oh I see so your rating is mostly subjective just not as dumb as some people basically. Secure about what ? Lets take True tears and Toradora for example how are they objectively bad to you ? ( assuming 4 is bad to you) |
| Well, the first thing you should know for the objective rating is the difference between objectivity and subjectivity, that means that you may dislike some valuable show and vice versa according to your paces and tastes, and that the score in your list may differ from your objective point of view - the famous "this anime is shit but I somehow like it anyway" or the opposite - so "maybe" Draco's ratings are different from what he think. Speaking for myself, there are plenty shows in my list who don't deserve the high score I gave them, I know, but I can't stop like them. And I am pretty sure that if there are the words "kugimiya" ad "tsundere" in the same show it won't get more than 4 from him D: Btw, objective rating and analysis is not such a big deal, it just requires information, "gnosis", and usually the more anime you watch the more "critical thinking" you develop. There is always a similar title [a.k.a. clone] for every anime, the more shows you watch of the same genre/type the more your evaluation will be accurate, and maybe go back in time for catch up the pioneers of the genre. Well, that's kinda what I think [and I sorta studied something on this topic], it's not arrogance if you ask D: just answering. And may I ask how could LOGH got a 1 from you, supposing you watched it? xD As always: sorry the engrish. |
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| I don't know if I hate or like you Araramaragi-san. You give a 10 to Nichibros but 10 to Naruto, that's some strange sense of scores. As Drac already mentioned, objective ranking is when you take what you believe to be wrong and right, and has facts and evidence to support it. It's fairly different than someone giving a 10 to anything they like, but it's still fairly accurate because we give a rating to a show based mostly on it's values, and not solely on our entertainment. Most critics and reviewers like to use "Story", "Character", "Animation", "Soundtrack", and "Enjoyment" as they're the 5 most important aspects of anime in general. Instead of using "Enjoyment" alone, by using the other 4 you acquire a sort of accuracy that gives much more perspective when rating something, as well much more fair and faithful to the original merit of the show. Arararraragi-kun said: Secure about what ? Lets take True tears and Toradora for example how are they objectively bad to you ? ( assuming 4 is bad to you) Toradora for example, was a trainwreck of melodrama that wasted a lot of potential in the characters and had some pretty stupid plot twists for the sake of cheap drama. This is only one point that objectively makes Toradora a bad show. |
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Niyawa said: Wait...you should take into account the genre, it's not the same thing for all, you should first focus on what the show wants to give you.Most critics and reviewers like to use "Story", "Character", "Animation", "Soundtrack", and "Enjoyment" as they're the 5 most important aspects of anime in general. Instead of using "Enjoyment" alone, by using the other 4 you acquire a sort of accuracy that gives much more perspective when rating something, as well much more fair and faithful to the original merit of the show. You mentioned Nichibros, does that show has a story? Animation? Music? Nope, but who cares? It's a comedy, characters and enjoyment are the core of the show. How about TTGL, where they ask you in the first episode to switch your brain off because they are gonna do what the fuck they want? Then music anime, like AKB and Macross, where music is important for the story itself, not to mention that AKB is literally an entertaining tale of entertainment and....nope, K-On isn't a music anime D: There are also those show that focus on graphics, like SHAFT or Gainax sometimes, since some [or most] of their shows are fast-paced AMV commentary moved by theatrical paintings and experimental animation, needless to say that Bakemonogatari with conventional techniques wouldn't have been the same thing. This categorization requires an open mind, you aren't going to like an idol anime if you hate idols [ex.], or if you hate a certain type of comedy, but if you watch one of those anime you may be able to rate them objectively, even if you'll not like them at all. And I stay out of the conversation about Toradora, too many years passed D: |
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bbQsauce said: Wait...you should take into account the genre, it's not the same thing for all, you should first focus on what the show wants to give you. You mentioned Nichibros, does that show has a story? Animation? Music? Nope, but who cares? It's a comedy, characters and enjoyment are the core of the show. You're not wrong, but I don't know why you mention this to being with. It's fairly obvious every show has a different approach to a different audience, so it will be up to the reviewer to make sure the show did a good job at executing that part. When I mentioned about the 5 main points that make up the whole show, I was saying that they will be the one that gives us the vision to make a more accurate and faithful decision based on objectivity. Slice of life focus on character development and usually a good OST that goes with it, so "Story" is not the main point. Comedy focus on character interaction while making use of plot points from very diversified perspectives, which takes back to what I said about "Story". Drama use the feelings of the audience to put emphasis in conflict and resolve. This means "Story" and "Characters" will need a good sync, or it won't work. bbQsauce said: And I stay out of the conversation about Toradora, too many years passed D: Dunno when it aired, but he asked anyway. Just replied. |
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| Oh I see you people are under the impression that rating an anime based on Characters , Animation , Soundtrack , Plot(story) and not just based on enjoyment is somehow objective. Lol that is subjective rating in the end -_- other than the quality of animation nothing is objective. Niyawa said: Arararraragi-kun said: Secure about what ? Lets take True tears and Toradora for example how are they objectively bad to you ? ( assuming 4 is bad to you) Toradora for example, was a train wreck of melodrama that wasted a lot of potential in the characters and had some pretty stupid plot twists for the sake of cheap drama. This is only one point that objectively makes Toradora a bad show. You thinking it was a train wreck of melodrama is your own subjective opinion and I don't even remember ''stupid'' plot twists. And no that doesn't make Toradora objectively bad... -Gotta say I am a bit disappointed you people seem to take the word very loosely. |
Arararraragi-kun said: Oh I see you people are under the impression that rating an anime based on Characters , Animation , Soundtrack , Plot(story) and not just based on enjoyment is somehow objective. Lol that is subjective rating in the end -_- other than the quality of animation nothing is objective. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/objective You really need to look up what you say before posting, son. Are you implying that an DeusExMachina and a asspulls in the plot is good? It might be entertaining, but not good in any way. It's a evidence of the writer's lack of ability to make a good story. Arararraragi-kun said: You thinking it was a train wreck of melodrama is your own subjective opinion and I don't even remember ''stupid'' plot twists. And no that doesn't make Toradora objectively bad... Melodrama is not subjective. If you don't know what the word means (which seems to be the case), Google is your friend. |
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Niyawa said: Arararraragi-kun said: Oh I see you people are under the impression that rating an anime based on Characters , Animation , Soundtrack , Plot(story) and not just based on enjoyment is somehow objective. Lol that is subjective rating in the end -_- other than the quality of animation nothing is objective. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/objective You really need to look up what you say before posting, son. Are you implying that an DeusExMachina and a asspulls in the plot is good? It might be entertaining, but not good in any way. It's a evidence of the writer's lack of ability to make a good story. The two anime I mentioned didn't have a deus ex machima so I don't know why you are bringing that up. Objective said: adjective not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion. I would like to know how can Soundtracks , Characters , Story be objective. A story having a deus ex machima which usually something that wasn't explained very well doesn't mean that the story is objectively bad. Niyawa said: Arararraragi-kun said: You thinking it was a train wreck of melodrama is your own subjective opinion and I don't even remember ''stupid'' plot twists. And no that doesn't make Toradora objectively bad... Melodrama is not subjective. If you don't know what the word means (which seems to be the case), Google is your friend. I meant you thinking it is bad and a train wreck because of ''Melodrama'' is subjective. I am fully aware what melodrama means explain to me how is Toradora a melodrama? Your are probably confusing it with Ano hana /derp. |
Arararraragi-kun said: The two anime I mentioned didn't have a deus ex machima so I don't know why you are bringing that up. The question of this thread is how we define objectivity in anime, which means I'm talking in general. Did you already forgot that? Objective said: adjective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion. I would like to know how can Soundtracks , Characters , Story be objective. Story that is logical (or at least doesn't break it's own logic) is objectively good, Soundtrack that fits the mood and doesn't distract the viewer too much is objectively good. Characters that aren't based on overused stereotypes like tsunderes (or at least are done in a original way) are objectively good. I can make a huge list my friend. Objective said: A story having a deus ex machima which usually something that wasn't explained very well doesn't mean that the story is objectively bad. Hypocrisy at it's finest. Do you even know what DeusEx Machina is? Let me give you a tour, it's when the writer doesn't have any logical way to resolve an issue, so he simply puts whatever he believes will "do" and expects the audience to accept like they're blatant idiots. Unfortunately , most do accept. Arararraragi-kun said: I meant you thinking it is bad and a train wreck because of ''Melodrama'' is subjective. I am fully aware what melodrama means explain to me how is Toradora a melodrama? Your are probably confusing it with Ano hana /derp. I'll gladly do so. Both have melodrama though, so I don't see your point. Remember the scene in the gym and the Christmas thing? Remember that fight the main female had with the Pres? Now try to see where melodrama doesn't fit there. Protip? You can't. If you really do know what melodrama means though, look at Toradora yourself and see every scene that had "sad" moments for the sake of it, it was not needed, they just wanted a excuse to make a conflict, and it the worst way possible. All of that aside, you are like, the person number #1636 to give the same arguments, the same attitude and the same conclusion in a discussion. I'm so used to this I can almost safely assume what you're going to reply next, but it's fun so we can keep going anyway. |
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| Every people have different taste, perspective and reference in objectivity to support their claims in most sophisticated manner as possible. Now that it has been answered what else do you want to know? If you want to have a reference then this club is an example or go watch parody anime that criticized other anime. |
"Deep." |
Niyawa said: -snip- You are kinda irritating '' do you know this do you know that'' dude there is something called '' google'' so of course I know... When I am talking about characters , soundtracks , story I meant you can't judge it objectively as a whole . I forgot about the student council arc because it was terrible so yeah there was melodrama still doesn't make toradora objectively bad it makes up for it in a lot of areas . Meh actually I lost interest in this topic didn't really learn anything new your rating system is subjective whether you realize that or not is not my concern. So yeah sorry for wasting time for me and you with this topic ~bye *leaves club and leaves the door open* |
Azraniel said: Every people have different taste, perspective and reference in objectivity to support their claims in most sophisticated manner as possible. Now that it has been answered what else do you want to know? If you want to have a reference then this club is an example or go watch parody anime that criticized other anime. I guess the experience they get when watching more anime will teach them accordingly. I'm fairly sure that when someone watches an ecchi show they've watched so many times already, they can see the value in it. Arararraragi-kun said: You are kinda irritaitong '' do you know this do you know that'' dude there is something called '' google'' so of course I know... Pffff, good one. You did learn a lot of new things son, it will probably take some years, but you'll come back here and say "well...". We can gamble 5 bucks on this if you want! Also, if you keep with that hypocrite attitude, you'll only make fool of yourself in the future, just like you did now. So keep that in mind since no one wants to harm anyone here. |
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Arararraragi-kun said: >Story that is logical (or at least doesn't break it's own logic) is objectively goodObjective said: adjective not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion. I would like to know how can Soundtracks , Characters , Story be objective. This and also, what the story wants to give first, of course making a logical school anime where nothing happens is easier than make a logical story about a futuristic apocalyptic and dystopian world. Complex stories usually doesn't follow rules, they make rules for themselves, especially dystopian worlds, fantasy or historical shows, what they have to do is follow their own rules, their own logic and their own line of thought based on their own world. On the other hand "easy shows" don't have easy life at all, you can make a cliched story about some people at school doing something, but it's not original at all, and make something original on an overused concept is hard. >Characters that aren't based on overused stereotypes like tsunderes (or at least are done in a original way) are objectively good. This. Original, interesting, funny characters according to the situation, characters who fit the concept of the story. As always, it depends on the show, a psychological story about a complexed guy for example may use a monothematic and repetitive character, who always fails because the story require it. Some parody like SZS deliberately use cliched characters just for analyze them through the MC point of view. There are also those shows that requires an interpretation to the viewer, like The End of Evanjelly or the recent Death Billiards, in those rare kind of show the viewer point of view is what estimate the show value, but again, there are few titles like this, they are also sought by a certain type of audience. Arararraragi-kun said: It depends on the show, if the main points of the story are explained trough deus-ex-machinae out of nowhere then the whole story is fucked up, but some mistakes in the script doesn't make a show "bad", maybe just less good or not "perfect", it depends on how much those flaws affect the story and its execution.A story having a deus ex machima which usually something that wasn't explained very well doesn't mean that the story is objectively bad. Too bad that watching to your anime list I can't find a title for make an example <.< Also, the objective rating is helpful only if you want to review shows or make recommendations, you haven't to evaluate them for yourself, make a review means generalize so that those who read can understand if they are going to like the show according to their own tastes. Also2, an objective rating is not perfect, nor a ranking, you always have to leave a margin of error, it's hard to say which show is better than another, while it easier to rank them, like "good shows", "very good shows", "mediocre shows", "bad shows". My raking for example goes from 3 to 10 [1, 2 and 3 are the same for me], since I don't care to say which show is worse with 4 numbers, 4 for bad titles with some qualities that save them from the oblivion and 3 for those just bad. I don't evaluate objectively in MY list, I do it when I discuss with others, when I give advices or when I write reviews [not here given that I ENGLISH VERI BAD!!1], split the subjective from the objective is not hard, I mean, I know my own tastes and what I like >___> |
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| bbQsauce summed it up pretty nicely. Well done sir. >Too bad that watching to your anime list I can't find a title for make an example OOOoh lord. I just noticed the guy doesn't have anything close to 300 in his completed list. No wonder I thought I was talking to a wall. |
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Niyawa said: Most of his days watched are from One Piece, Naruto, and Detective Conan.OOOoh lord. I just noticed the guy doesn't have anything close to 300 in his completed list. No wonder I thought I was talking to a wall. I found his ratings funnier, though. Reminds me of a troll on here that got banned a while ago. |
| Video rants & stuff: Top 12 Heart-Wrenching Scenes in Anime | DraconisMarch Video Club |
| Clannad: AS > 1 Naruto > 10 >All ratings add up to a mean of exactly 5.0 Yeaaah.. troll. |
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