| I mentioned a few criteria in my previous post of things dark anime contains...after some thought I noticed there are quite a few non-dark anime that fill all those criteria as well. So while most people want a dark anime to have all or most of the criteria mentioned earlier,a dark anime shouldn't contain many things like the comedic reaction faces which can be found aplenty in FMA. Personally I would say the driving force behind the story of FMA is brotherly love...and this is not dark. So while I think most people would agree that FMA has quite a few dark elements, they are overshadowed by this "positive" sentimental force. Think of the main driving forces in many dark animes and you will see revenge, hedonism, nihilism,destruction. In most shounen anime the motive is all too often friendship (with no betrayal or revenge angle), familial love (again usually with no betrayal), and other coming of age type plots. It seems to be a matter of distinguishing the difference between a dark anime that has moments of humor versus a non-dark anime that happens to have a decent amount of dark content. Then it just depends on whether we want to exclude an anime for not being a pure-bred dark anime or whether we can give FMA an "honorary" dark anime status due to its spirited effort to satisfy our desire to see people get mentally and physically messed up. |
BlackMagic said: I mentioned a few criteria in my previous post of things dark anime contains...after some thought I noticed there are quite a few non-dark anime that fill all those criteria as well. So while most people want a dark anime to have all or most of the criteria mentioned earlier,a dark anime shouldn't contain many things like the comedic reaction faces which can be found aplenty in FMA. Personally I would say the driving force behind the story of FMA is brotherly love...and this is not dark. So while I think most people would agree that FMA has quite a few dark elements, they are overshadowed by this "positive" sentimental force. Think of the main driving forces in many dark animes and you will see revenge, hedonism, nihilism,destruction. In most shounen anime the motive is all too often friendship (with no betrayal or revenge angle), familial love (again usually with no betrayal), and other coming of age type plots. It seems to be a matter of distinguishing the difference between a dark anime that has moments of humor versus a non-dark anime that happens to have a decent amount of dark content. Then it just depends on whether we want to exclude an anime for not being a pure-bred dark anime or whether we can give FMA an "honorary" dark anime status due to its spirited effort to satisfy our desire to see people get mentally and physically messed up. See people? That's how you back up your opinions. You can't simply say you don't consider FMA, or any other anime to be dark or not without backing up your claims. Bravo Black Magic. I hope to hear more considered opinions like this. I will retort to certain parts of what you said though :) BlackMagic said: Think of the main driving forces in many dark animes and you will see revenge, hedonism, nihilism,destruction. In most shounen anime the motive is all too often friendship (with no betrayal or revenge angle), familial love (again usually with no betrayal), and other coming of age type plots. By your measure dark anime include the themes you've listed above (and then some). Revenge - Scar's quest to destroy every state alchemist for what they did to his people (a major theme in the story); Edward's desire to destroy the homunculi for the murder of Maes Hughes (which plays a major part in his actions towards the end of the series and is the reason no one tells when it happens); Wrath's desire to destroy Edward and his "mother", Edward because Wrath hates how Edward is considered a "complete" human and he isn't, and his mother for abandoning him to the gate; Roy Mustang's desire to destroy those who were responsible for the massacre at Ishbal, and the murder of Maes Hughes. Nihilism - The massacre at Ishbal, and the subsequnt murder of the Ishbalian refugees; the population of the city that was used for the creation of the philosopher's stone by Hohenheim of Light and the one who became Lyra; Scars massacre of state alchemists in thecreation of the philosopher's stone. It may not be nihilism in the truest sense of the word, as the characters don't really display the typical nihilistic attitude, but the massacres (or genocide if you prefer), are representative of those characters view of other human life - humans are just things to them, tools to be used and destroyed whenever they wish. That part of humanity is used in many dark animes, with varying degrees of effectiveness. It may not be nihilism, but it's just as good when used right. Destruction - the destruction of Ishbal and it's people; the use of a city and it's people for the creation of the philosopher's stone (including the subsequent burial of the city so no one would know what really happened); the destruction of Rose (raped by state alchemists and mentally tortured). The only one not covered is Hedonism, but maybe Lust already had that one under her dress somewhere :) Yes there's brotherly love and friendship, because if there wasn't this anime would have ended up like FFX - all doom, gloom, death and despair (that's notto say I didn't enjoy FFX, the stories just a little depressing). That's not to say that there aren't some just plain old funny moments in the anime, but even shows like Death Note and Gantz have those. I do have to agree that they could have precluded the use of comedic reactions though. Going back to your previous post, I don't actually think it's truly necessary for an anime to have dulled overtones and a "dark" colour pallete, as they are just there to intensify the mood. Take Chrno Crusade for example. Many would consider it to be a "dark" anime, yet it's colour pallete is decidely bright, and it has those comedic moments. Yes Rosette and Chrno beat the bad guys, and yes it has a hopeful feeling at the end, right up until you see Aion walking off at the end, to the sound of a new stigmata report. Then you realise that even though Rosette and Chrno's struggles weren't in vain, they may not have been enough. Hellsing used a similar colour pallete to Chrno Crusade and many people classify it as a "dark" anime. Get the story right and you don't need to add mood enhancers like muted colours. The "taboo" subject FMA touches on is human experimentation. This has been done in many animes, but rarely do you get to see the consequences, which FMA is not afraid of showing. As for the obsession, it goes on right to the end of the series. Edward dies so Alphonse sacrifices himself to resurrect his brother, but Edward is so obsessed and so full of guilt, that he refuses to accept his brother's gift, and uses his power to return Alphonse back to the way he was. Yes, Edward doesn't die but ends up on our world, but he ends up there because he is as obsessed as his father (and remember, his father killed an untold number of people in his quest for immortality). Yes the main characters hope they can atone for their "sins", and return things to the way they were before, but when they learn the true cost of the philosopher's stone, that hope turns to despair, especially when they realise that there is no other way to make things right except to create and use the philosopher's stone. Something that both brothers can't bring themselves to do. As for betrayal, the brothers are betrayed by the state alchemists, and by Dante (and later Lyra because she's the same person). The brothers are also betrayed by their father. Imagine how you would feel if you found out your father murdered thousands upon thousands of people, all for something as selfish as immortality. It wouldn't be a nice feeling at all. Umbra makes a good point about Elfen Lied, another "dark" anime. His point is well made that Lucy's dual personalities cancel each other out, and the overall feel of the anime is hopeful more than anything else. Lucy wants to atone for her sins, particulary the murder of Kouta's little sister, and in some ways she achieves this. Elfen Lied is far more hopeful than FMA. I think the steretypical definition of what makes a show "dark" needs to be revised, as there are many ways one could interpret the things they see in a show. I also think that we all need to be more open about how we categorise shows like FMA. It's not a stereotypical shounen anime (the good guys don't always win, and sometimes get killed or severely messed up), it's not a typical "dark"anime (it's hopeful, it has some comedy, friendship, love), it's not a typical action anime (again, people get severely messed up, and when was the last time a character was raped in a shounen or action anime?). FMA does qualify as a dark anime, especially if Elfen Lied, Hellsing and Chrno Crusade and the like qualify. The main problem with FMA is that it caters to a number of genres, so it's difficult to call it simply a "dark" anime. Be that as it may though, it covers a number of dark themes better than most standard "dark" animes. Besides, if you think FMA has you confused about categorising it, then you should know it's just the tip of the iceberg. Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei is a dark anime, but it's also most definitely a comedy. Wolf's Rain is considered a "dark" anime, but it's also a shounen anime. Most horror animes (usually the preserve of "dark" animes), are not exclusively dark anymore, as they will include shounen or shoujo themes, or comedy, or action. Like I said, the standard definition of "dark" needs to be revised so it isn't limited to such a narrow field (particularly because such a narrow field means you're sacrficing things like character development, plot, continuation, etc - I'm looking at you Death Note). |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| I've seen only a few episodes of FMA, o.O but I think they were definitely dark. Though it had several funny moments, but they were to lighten the atmosphere or I would get too depressed to watch. So I vote dark ^^ |
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| It definitely qualifies as dark. The character and story are very dark and complex. Most of the characters are dark, either plagued by some sin of guilt or commit 'dark' acts. Out of the few characters that aren't one of them dies. The humor and color don't make it less dark in fact I think it adds to it by making it more true, because there will be happy moments in any life no matter how dark which makes it worse when it's crushed. An example being when they discovered hoe the long sought after Philosopher's Stone was obtained. A twist like that would have been expected and not as emotional if the anime was all gloom until that point. Yes it's a bit Shounen, but I know if I were to see/hear a thirteen year old or younger talking about I'd wonder "DO you even get it?" |
Archaeon said: I'm quoting this for reference as the comparison he makes, although valid, misses the point entirely, just like many of you seem to have missed the point entirely. You focus so much on silly things like colour pallete, comedy, light-heartedness, etc, that you forgot to actually pay attention to the most important thing - the story. You have just assumed yourself that the plot is the most important thing. Dark, gloomy, murky is not equal to dramatic, you're confusing those two genres. IMHO what makes anime a dark one is overall atmosphere: gloomy mood, music, dark palette, and story with no comedy. It gives you this specific thrill, and feelings when you watch it at night. The dark theme can be easily felt in the atmosphere. The story alone doesn't create dark mood. I agree that FMA had some dark moments, like when Ed was in the slaughterhouse, or the story about Nina, but it fails completly in all other moments. |
droesk said: You have just assumed yourself that the plot is the most important thing. Dark, gloomy, murky is not equal to dramatic, you're confusing those two genres. IMHO what makes anime a dark one is overall atmosphere: gloomy mood, music, dark palette, and story with no comedy. It gives you this specific thrill, and feelings when you watch it at night. The dark theme can be easily felt in the atmosphere. The story alone doesn't create dark mood. I agree that FMA had some dark moments, like when Ed was in the slaughterhouse, or the story about Nina, but it fails completly in all other moments. Actually what I said was that sometimes the story is good enough that you don't need mood enhancers like the muted colour pallete (which is used is many other shows to enhance the overall effect due to the weak story). By your measure the plot isn't the most important thing, but if it isn't the most important thing then all your watching is "feelgood eyecandy". It's tantamount to a placebo with little or no plot, and effectively a waste of time no matter how pretty or atmospheric it is. Besides, whoever said "dark" has to be gloomy? I never saw that written down anywhere? Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei has broken that myth entirely, because it is a dark anime (by your standards anyway), and yet it is a brilliant comedy. So how is dark not funny? In actuality FMA has more of these "dark" moments everyone mentions (which really confuses me because there's entire episodes and sequences of episodes where there nothing but pain and hardship and suffering and death, and yet you all persist in calling these "moments"), than most other "dark" animes. You say that "dark" animes give you a specific thrill, and that the story alone doesn't create a "dark" mood. If that's the case, then why are certain authors so popular? Why do we have authors like Stephen King, Dean Koontz Jonathan Aycliffe, etc? Why did Bram Stoker write Dracula, or Mary Shelley write Frankenstein? What was Edgar Allen Poe trying to do with his entire body of work? How can you justify that the story isn't the most important part when for centuries many people had nothing but the written (or spoken) word and their own imagination? You're argument that the story alone doesn't create a dark mood is unfortunately specious, as you seem to have forgotten that anime is a recent form of pop culture, and you've based you're arguments on what you're familiar with (as most people do), and thereby ignored the rest of human history. Anime may be enjoyable to you and I, but there are far more people in the world who would rather read a good book than watch anime. I suggest you read Naomi's Room by Jonathan Aycliffe, and then come back and tell me the story isn't the most important part. My assertion the story is the most important part isn't based on personal opinion, but on the fact that a new Stephen King novel will outsell any anime you'd care to name. Like I said, get the story right and it can look any way it wants. Oh, you're assertion that dark, gloomy, murky does not equal dramatic is false by the way. Shows like Gantz, Hellsing, Death Note, etc all rely on the heightened dramatic sensation to drive the plot forward, and this sensation is heightened (especially in the case of Death Note), by the mood, music, dark palette. I have to disagree though as Death Note, amongst others, was extremely funny in many parts, and a good story doesn not rely on other effects to heighten the mood. One of the things FMA did that isn't really covered in many "dark" animes is showing the consequences of the characters actions. The result is a catalogue of human suffering which shows like Hellsing, Death Note, etc, have completely ignored or dumbed down. You mentioned Ed in the slaughterhouse and the story about Nina. What you neglected to highlight was how those events had an effect on the brothers and those around them, which is clearly shown in the series. It seems like most people just want the "feelgood eyecandy" because it makes them feel better, and because it feels as though there are very few consequences to ones actions (dying doesn't count as a consequence because it happens to everyone sooner or later - pain, suffering, anger, guilt, self torture (mental or physical), hatred, isolation, etc, are consequences). |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| I said that the plot is not most important, but didn't say that it's not important at all. The story, animation, music, and voices are put into one piece. If even one of these are not good enough then the movie is also no good. After all you wouldn't watch anime with stick figures no matter how good the story would be and vice versa. And the atmosphere is also created by the story. About the books, it's a specific medium, where you can only read the story and descriptions. Therefore when reading, people use the right side of brain, imagining characters, locations, voices etc. Why only having the story, books can be so good ? Because when you read "beatiful trees" your brain can show you those beatiful trees. Diferent persons will see different trees, but for all all of them they will be beatiful. Imagination is powerful and it made the books a phenomen. Now tell me what will happen when we will acually see the image of those trees ? One person will say they're really beatiful, but the other one will say they are nothing special. When we watch a movie imagination stops working, we receive much more information into our senses(seeing and hearing), therefore it's much harder to create good movie than write a good book. The most important thing is that the movie have to satisfy all those senses, on the other site book doesn't care about it, they are satisfied automatically. And so comparing books and movies is wrong. Archaeon said: Oh, you're assertion that dark, gloomy, murky does not equal dramatic is false by the way. Shows like Gantz, Hellsing, Death Note, etc all rely on the heightened dramatic sensation to drive the plot forward, and this sensation is heightened (especially in the case of Death Note), by the mood, music, dark palette. I have to disagree though as Death Note, amongst others, was extremely funny in many parts, and a good story doesn not rely on other effects to heighten the mood. No it is right, equal means the same. Dark anime may have dramatic aspects, but drama alone doesn't make dark anime. Therefore drama may implicate from dark anime but is not equal. |
| Just looking at FMA alone and how it measures up to various "dark" criteria, I would agree wholeheartedly that FMA has pretty much anything you would want in a dark anime. The problem happened when I used that same standard on an anime like Naruto. While most people would agree there are lots of dark moments in Naruto, I don't think many would want to add it to our list. Not only does Naruto satisfy the 6 criteria I mentioned in my post on the 2nd page, but it also has the revenge motivation (Sasuke), nihilism (Itachi), destruction (Gaara),and multiple betrayals (Itachi, Sasuke, Orochimaru, etc). I would say despite these dark themed plot arcs, the overall driving motivation of Naruto that is present in all of those arcs is one of Friendship and Acceptance...and these are "positive" motivations. That's why I would say Naruto is not a dark anime, but rather a shounen anime with dark themes. That is the same category I would stick FMA into. I'll be the first to agree that looking at FMA and pointing out the dark aspects makes this a hard decision. The only way I can see the non-dark argument is by stepping back from the dark that FMA has and ask myself what FMA has that dark animes usually don't have. My answer: 1)The overall driving force of the anime is brotherly love which is a "positive" force 2)The comedic double take reactions 3)The comedic relief is fairly prevalent even among serious characters and not limited to a single character designed to lighten the situation a little (See Puck from Berserk) (This is just a few examples rather than a big comprehensive list...it's been awhile since I've seen FMA) Like I said, personally I think even if FMA isn't considered dark by the hardcore among us, I think it has enough darkness to earn an honorable mention. I think the question we need to ask is how strict we want to be on the guidelines. // And I do agree that some people seem to be placing too much stock in the color issue. By that argument I could make an anime about Charlie the Unicorn with washed out landscapes and claim it is dark. |
droesk said: I said that the plot is not most important, but didn't say that it's not important at all. The story, animation, music, and voices are put into one piece. If even one of these are not good enough then the movie is also no good. After all you wouldn't watch anime with stick figures no matter how good the story would be and vice versa. And the atmosphere is also created by the story. You still haven't mentioned what effect it has when it's all atmosphere and no story. If the story isn't the most important part of an anime, then what is? When the show is first created, the original concept is the story. Everything else is chosen after that. Without the story then, there is no show. And you're assertion that they are all one piece is incorrect. Yes, some elements can detract from the overall appeal of the show, but if the story is good enough then people will still watch it. droesk said: About the books, it's a specific medium, where you can only read the story and descriptions. Therefore when reading, people use the right side of brain, imagining characters, locations, voices etc. Why only having the story, books can be so good ? Because when you read "beatiful trees" your brain can show you those beatiful trees. Diferent persons will see different trees, but for all all of them they will be beatiful. Imagination is powerful and it made the books a phenomen. Now tell me what will happen when we will acually see the image of those trees ? One person will say they're really beatiful, but the other one will say they are nothing special. When we watch a movie imagination stops working, we receive much more information into our senses(seeing and hearing), therefore it's much harder to create good movie than write a good book. The most important thing is that the movie have to satisfy all those senses, on the other site book doesn't care about it, they are satisfied automatically. And so comparing books and movies is wrong. Actually it isn't wrong compare books and movies. If you read any informed criticism of a movie or series based on a book, then you'd see the main talking points are not about trees or backgrounds or music or art direction. The main talking points are about how well did they follow the story, or did the change from book to visual media work well enough to support any cutting or alteration of the story. The story is always the main talking point (LOTR is a prime example of this). Yes, you don't need as much imagination to watch a movie as you would to visualise the story yourself, but the overall appeal is based on the story only. Also, if you're comparing movies to books, then you should understand that in actual fact it is much more difficult to write a book than to produce a movie. This is because a movie does all the visual work for you, whereas an author must visualise the scene for everybody, and then find the right way to describe that scene. The author is in danger of being too descriptive, but movies and shows don't have that problem. Remember, a picture may paint a thousand words, but a picture is easier to make. In many circles, you're assertion that a movie is more difficult to make than a book would be considered insulting to the thousands of published and unpublished authors across the planet, especially as a book is an individual creation. In a movie you just have to show a tree, whereas in a book the author has to explain what, about the tree, is actually beautiful. Also, people don't simply use the right side of their brain when they read a story, or are you claiming to know how the brain works? Most of the things we claim to know about the brain and it's various functions are still classified as theories. Yes, there is exhaustive research into the field of neurosciences, but there is actually very little empirical evidence. You said "imagination is powerful and it made books a phenomenon". I think you actually meant stories. Books have been around in one form or another for millenia. Stories, on the other hand, were mainly passed vocally until the advent of the printed word. Books became more accessable to the masses, and authors began to crawl out of the woodwork, yet stories have been around since man first learned to communicate. Given the history of the himan race as a sentient species, can you still say the story isn't the most important part? Especially as we tell ourselves all those little stories just to get through the day? droesk said: No it is right, equal means the same. Dark anime may have dramatic aspects, but drama alone doesn't make dark anime. Therefore drama may implicate from dark anime but is not equal. You say that drama alone doesn't make a dark anime. I would call Grave of the Fireflies extremely dark, and yet it doesn't fulfill you're idea of a dark anime. The same goes for quite a few other shows and movies that, by your classification, wouldn't be called "dark". School Days, for example, wasn't the best show in the world, but it was extremely dark. If you read my post in the "Your definition of a dark anime" thread, you'll see that I highlighted what true darkness actually is. Dark doesn't need any tricks to show how bad things can get (and by tricks I mean colour palettes and the like). Dramatic is a natural part of the story (or would you say that someone losing all hope was simply gloomy and not dramatic). Dramatic and dark aren't mutually exclusive, but you can't have dark without drama. If you try to do dark without drama, you end up with a show like the Dark Myth, or Devil Man, or even Urotsukidoji. Dark without story. Dark without drama. Both are tantamount to being spoon fed a big steaming pile of crap. |
ArchaeonDec 8, 2007 12:49 PM
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| And once again Black Magic has appeared with excellent arguments. The problem with comparing FMA to Naruto (or Bleach for that matter) though, is that Naruto had several different story arcs. FMA has only one arc, and that is the brothers quest. Yes, there are episodes in different towns and there are comedic scenes, but nothing in the show seperates on arc from another. They're all part of the same story. I think a better comparison for FMA would be Chrno Crusade, especially as Naruto is like the duracell bunny of anime (it just keeps going and goingand going....). |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| I agree FMA isnt as easily segmented as Naruto or Bleach. I guess a better way to describe my perspective would be to compare an anime to a layered cake like a wedding cake. The bottom layer is the largest; the foundation all the rest rely on. When I mention the main drive of an anime I picture it as the foundation. If you had to give a quick 1 sentence summary of an anime's purpose, it would be the bottom layer. For FMA I think this bottom layer would be "A boy searches for a way to restore his brother". Then, I'd probably put the search for the Philosopher's stone and/or becoming a state alchemist as the next layer and then probably Scar followed by the humunculi and others as the next layers of the cake. Depending on the show you might have a pretty tall cake by the time you're finished. Taking the cake thing a bit further, you can then give a different flavor to each layer except our flavors will be things like dark, fantasy, shounen rather than chocolate, marble, and pumpernickel. The main issue we seem to have is deciding how many "dark" layers are needed in the cake to call it dark. I can't really come up with a good answer on short notice, but it seems that most anime cakes will have a few dark layers. I would say that the FMA cake probably has more dark layers than it has light, but I would consider the bottom layer to be a light one. It may be a little unfair of me to judge a whole cake by its bottom layer, but since it's the biggest layer I tend to put a bit more emphasis on it. Really my first impression of FMA was that it was pretty dark and I probably wouldn't have looked so deep into the issue if so many people weren't making such a big deal about it. If we had a more definitive scoring system then I wouldn't have just made this long post about cake. |
| I like cake. I think your cake example is absolutely spot on. I couldn't have come up with a better example myself. |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
Archaeon said: You still haven't mentioned what effect it has when it's all atmosphere and no story. If the story isn't the most important part of an anime, then what is? When the show is first created, the original concept is the story. Everything else is chosen after that. Without the story then, there is no show. And you're assertion that they are all one piece is incorrect. Yes, some elements can detract from the overall appeal of the show, but if the story is good enough then people will still watch it. I did say that there is no good atmosphere without good story. So all atmosphere and no story is impossible. You asked what is the most important, and I already said that everything is equally important. No matter how good the plot is I wouldn't read a manga with crappy art, instead I would just take a book. And the same goes for anime. Archaeon said: Actually it isn't wrong compare books and movies. If you read any informed criticism of a movie or series based on a book, then you'd see the main talking points are not about trees or backgrounds or music or art direction. The main talking points are about how well did they follow the story, or did the change from book to visual media work well enough to support any cutting or alteration of the story. The story is always the main talking point (LOTR is a prime example of this). The story has to be the main talking point, since there is nothing else besides it in the book ^^ And I didn't mean comparing in this aspect. What I meaned is that in book there is only story, and the rest is filled by imagination. So the most important thing in book is obvious. And imagination greatly surpasses images, which proved my talking about trees ;) Archaeon said: Yes, you don't need as much imagination to watch a movie as you would to visualise the story yourself, but the overall appeal is based on the story only I soo disagree, if the overall appeal of movie would be based only on story there would be no need for animation and music, and therefore people would just read books. I may have overstated that its easier to write a book. I rather meaned that it's harder to record images that will touch the viewer like it does in the book. For example already mentioned LOTR, described fantasy world and created in imagination is much better than world plainly shown in the movie. Archaeon said: Also, people don't simply use the right side of their brain when they read a story, or are you claiming to know how the brain works? Most of the things we claim to know about the brain and it's various functions are still classified as theories. I said they use it when imagining, not when reading a story. I'm not claiming I know how brain works, but i trust scientists, who knows even which part of the brain is responsible for eyesight, or hearing. And it's not only theories! When doctors put electrodes into brain curing for example a migrene it's undeniable proof. Archaeon said: I think you actually meant stories... can you still say the story isn't the most important part? Yeah i meant stories including books. So the stories were always there, but what makes them so special ? It's the imagination. How much feeling would bring out the story for a human who can't see and hear since birth ? Would he be moved by story about a sound of the ocean waves, without experiencing it ? He won't be able to imagine them. And in movies this most imortant imagination is fading, so other effects have to compansate for it. Archaeon said: You say that drama alone doesn't make a dark anime. I would call Grave of the Fireflies extremely dark, and yet it doesn't fulfill you're idea of a dark anime. I'm just wondering which of my statments would exclude GotF from being dark. Haven't watched school days. |
| I totally agree with what BlackMagic said! I thought FMA was a undeniable DARK anime. Like Tifa said earlier in her spoiler; That is exactly what I thought that made this a dark anime. What Dima said on the comment page about the different types of dark genres was right on. Personally, like Dima, I think this debate is mainly between the confusion of dark/horror and dark/tragic. Two VERY different elements to me. One, is blood, suspense and gore like Hellsing and Elfen Lied and the other, filled with tragic events that happened during their journey like Mushishi. Later~~~ |
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BlackMagic said: I agree FMA isnt as easily segmented as Naruto or Bleach. I guess a better way to describe my perspective would be to compare an anime to a layered cake like a wedding cake. The bottom layer is the largest; the foundation all the rest rely on. When I mention the main drive of an anime I picture it as the foundation. If you had to give a quick 1 sentence summary of an anime's purpose, it would be the bottom layer. For FMA I think this bottom layer would be "A boy searches for a way to restore his brother". Then, I'd probably put the search for the Philosopher's stone and/or becoming a state alchemist as the next layer and then probably Scar followed by the humunculi and others as the next layers of the cake. Depending on the show you might have a pretty tall cake by the time you're finished. Taking the cake thing a bit further, you can then give a different flavor to each layer except our flavors will be things like dark, fantasy, shounen rather than chocolate, marble, and pumpernickel. The main issue we seem to have is deciding how many "dark" layers are needed in the cake to call it dark. I can't really come up with a good answer on short notice, but it seems that most anime cakes will have a few dark layers. I would say that the FMA cake probably has more dark layers than it has light, but I would consider the bottom layer to be a light one. It may be a little unfair of me to judge a whole cake by its bottom layer, but since it's the biggest layer I tend to put a bit more emphasis on it. Since a lot of guys are still showing off that FMA is not a dark anime. i could not help my self to be lazy off and say nothing. i would like to highlight again wat Black magic said : I would say that the FMA cake probably has more dark layers than it has light, but I would consider the bottom layer to be a light one. It may be a little unfair of me to judge a whole cake by its bottom layer, but since it's the biggest layer I tend to put a bit more emphasis on it. since the bottom layer is described as a "A boy searches for a way to restore his brother". if we think more deeply over this. the boy is finding a way to change what has happend in his past. feeling with guilt. and he is insane and obsessed about the task. This is aspects the what we find most in Death note. which is classified as dark anime. so including all the other layers of the so called anime cake. i suppose that FMA will certainly qualify as dark anime. |
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Dark-Flash said: the boy is finding a way to change what has happend in his past. feeling with guilt. and he is insane and obsessed about the task. This is aspects the what we find most in Death note. which is classified as dark anime. so including all the other layers of the so called anime cake. i suppose that FMA will certainly qualify as dark anime. Would you tell that a metal music is rock, because both of them have guitars, drums, vocal, and other sounds in common ? |
droeskDec 9, 2007 2:59 AM
droesk said: Dark-Flash said: the boy is finding a way to change what has happend in his past. feeling with guilt. and he is insane and obsessed about the task. This is aspects the what we find most in Death note. which is classified as dark anime. so including all the other layers of the so called anime cake. i suppose that FMA will certainly qualify as dark anime. Would you tell that a metal music is rock, because both of them have guitars, drums, vocal, and other sounds in common ? Theoretically Metal is an "evolved child" of rock music genre. As rock is an evolved child of rock'n'roll genre. So yea, the very line between metal and rock is very thin. But Ontopic, I do not see on how that related to the topic >.> |
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Fai said: Theoretically Metal is an "evolved child" of rock music genre. As rock is an evolved child of rock'n'roll genre. So yea, the very line between metal and rock is very thin. But Ontopic, I do not see on how that related to the topic >.> Dark-Flash said that gilt, insane and obsession from FMA is in common with death note, and that's what makes FMA dark. That is the relation with my example. If that line were so thin, there would be noo need for a new genre "metal", we would just call it rock. Did you listen to black metal? and still say the line is thin ? But this talk goes a bit too far. What I mean is you can't say that metal is rock because it has many things in common, as well as you can't call FMA dark because it has some similiar aspects with dark anime like death note. |
droesk said: Dark-Flash said that gilt, insane and obsession from FMA is in common with death note, and that's what makes FMA dark. That is the relation with my example. If that line were so thin, there would be noo need for a new genre "metal", we would just call it rock. Did you listen to black metal? and still say the line is thin ? But this talk goes a bit too far. What I mean is you can't say that metal is rock because it has many things in common, as well as you can't call FMA dark because it has some similiar aspects with dark anime like death note. i dont think that droesk really understood what i said. what i really said was that the "FMA's anime cake's bottom layer" consists the characteristic of insanity and obsession are the main aspects that we find in death note. but i never did tell this makes FMA dark. what makes FMA dark is that since the bottom layer shows such dark characteristics along with the other layers of the so called anime cake it makes it dark. Blackmagic himself quoted that "I would say that the FMA cake probably has more dark layers than it has light, but I would consider the bottom layer to be a light one". and i have explained that deeply the bottom layer is not light one. it is dark one. |
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| not rly sure, it has a lot of dark moments but it also has a lot of happy shounen parts.. i'll go for yes though^^ |
| You're right I have misundarstood. You have said that the bottom layer is dark, I may agree that the story may fit into dark anime. But I disagree that the this bottom layer is most important(I was talking about it with Archaeon), and also that more layers are dark than light. I still think that all layers are equal, and the overall atmosphere of FMA is too "light-hearted" to be called dark. If those negative emotions and story as you all say is determinant of dark anime, then we should add to our list titles like bleach, naruto, dragonball, and most of the drama genres. |
| I agree that the bottom layer might not be the most important. If I were to say that FMA has mostly dark layers except for the bottom and therefore it isn't dark, then on the opposite side of that I would have to say an anime with mostly light layers but with a dark bottom is dark. Technically I can't do that. I would say the bottom layer sets the overall tone of the anime as serious vs lighthearted but can't be the only determining factor. I would say an anime like Zombie Loan has a dark bottom layer...the premise being that some poor girl gets dragged into helping two dead guys who cant wear their own arm without it rotting to kill zombies. But pretty much all the other layers are light due to the comedy. I mean even the grim reaper was a joke in that show. So if Zombie Loan isnt dark just based on its bottom layer, then how can I rule out FMA just because of its light bottom layer. I'm still sticking to saying the main motivation is brotherly love. I agree there's probably tons of guilt involved...but there is guilt when Ed is involved with the death's of other people and he's not going to the same lengths on their account. Really this is all just very subjective since different people are going to put more weight in certain aspects of "darkness" when making their decision. For some people the background/ambience may be one of the largest factors, for others they may pay more attention to violence and depravity. For a group with 300+ members we just need to realize that there are quite a few different opinions on what makes an anime dark and respect them. If Cyruz,Dima, and Mathes want to narrow the scope a bit then they will, but until then I think we should think outside the box a little. The poll is straddling the fence, so evidently FMA has something going for it. If someone made a vote on Naruto or Bleach I'm betting it would be more one-sided so I don't think we have to worry too much about opening a shounen can-o-worms by letting FMA stay. |
| lol@ droesk said: I still think that all layers are equal, and the overall atmosphere of FMA is too "light-hearted" to be called dark. If those negative emotions and story as you all say is determinant of dark anime, then we should add to our list titles like bleach, naruto, dragonball, and most of the drama genres. FMA shows you the darkness of human mind and existence, or maybe you don't consider such things as dark? if you haven't understood the plot or just dislike FMA, that's something completely different, but comparing FMA to Bleach... :S i'm wondering, are you sure you are on about the actual anime Fullmetal Alchemist? |
| BlackMagick I see you are very wise, and I agree with you. It's just that for me anime is not dark because a specific plot, or color palette, but a dark atmosphere when I watch it, and so it's easily distinguished from other genres. FMA just don't give me this feelings. In the end I think there really shouldn't be problem with FMA on the list, since it balances on the line judging by the votes. ashura said: FMA shows you the darkness of human mind and existence, or maybe you don't consider such things as dark? if you haven't understood the plot or just dislike FMA, that's something completely different, but comparing FMA to Bleach... :S i'm wondering, are you sure you are on about the actual anime Fullmetal Alchemist? I see that you have quite some problems with reading text: droesk said: I may agree that the story may fit into dark anime. And where did I compare FMA to Bleach ? I thought I wrote that Bleach would also fall into dark anime category when we would use those criteria. Or would you say that all those hollow stuff is not dark ? btw. I watched FMA 3.5 times, and not dislike, nor don't understand(lol) it. |
droesk said: BlackMagick I see you are very wise, and I agree with you. It's just that for me anime is not dark because a specific plot, or color palette, but a dark atmosphere when I watch it, and so it's easily distinguished from other genres. FMA just don't give me this feelings. In the end I think there really shouldn't be problem with FMA on the list, since it balances on the line judging by the votes. A very good point Droesk. Overall the atmoshpere in FMA isn't as dark as Ergo Proxy and the like, but it did manage to at least equal the atmosphere of those shows in the sections of the story where it was supposed to be dark. I think if it had been writted as a book then it would have had a much more intense atmosphere, but as a visual media this has become diluted somewhat. droesk said: And where did I compare FMA to Bleach ? I thought I wrote that Bleach would also fall into dark anime category when we would use those criteria. Or would you say that all those hollow stuff is not dark ? btw. I watched FMA 3.5 times, and not dislike, nor don't understand(lol) it. Bleach could technically be classed as a dark anime, but for me it has far too many shounen elements in it for it to stand up to close scrutiny. droesk said: I said they use it when imagining, not when reading a story. I'm not claiming I know how brain works, but i trust scientists, who knows even which part of the brain is responsible for eyesight, or hearing. And it's not only theories! When doctors put electrodes into brain curing for example a migrene it's undeniable proof. Unfortunately this is not specifically true. There are many sections of the brain, and no one really understands how they interact. Scientists have defined specific sections of the brain which control speech, sight, touch, etc, but they're not sure if these sections have sole control over those particular senses. droesk said: I did say that there is no good atmosphere without good story. So all atmosphere and no story is impossible. You asked what is the most important, and I already said that everything is equally important. No matter how good the plot is I wouldn't read a manga with crappy art, instead I would just take a book. And the same goes for anime. Unfortunately, there are shows that are effectively all atmosphere and no plot (the most famous being Fantasia, although the format for that movie is not a hard and fast rule). The anime equivalents are generally completely diabolical (Eiken, for example). BlackMagic said: I'm still sticking to saying the main motivation is brotherly love. I agree there's probably tons of guilt involved...but there is guilt when Ed is involved with the death's of other people and he's not going to the same lengths on their account. I've had a think about this and I have to disagree with you Black Magic old chum. From the very start of the show Ed has been obsessed with alchemy, and more importantly, being better at it than his dad. He pulls Al along with him as Al, being the younger brother, won't really go against what Ed tells him to do. When their mother dies, Ed is obsessed with using alchemy to bring her back to life. When Al loses his body, Ed becomes obsessed with changing everything back to how it was. That last example of Ed's obsession is borne out in the show, as when he brings Al back at the end, he doesn't bring back the older, wiser version, but the body and mind of the AL who disappeared on the night they broke the laws of alchemy. If he wasn't obsessed with putting everything back the way it was, then he would have recovered Al's body and put his soul back in it, but with Al's memories intact. The show isn't so much about brotherly love (although it plays a part, it takes second fiddle to the main theme), as it is about obsession, and the lengths to which people will go to satisfy their obsessions. I seriously doubt that animes such as Bleach, or even Ergo Proxy, Death Note, and the like, would spark this much debate over what genre they are or what category they fall in to. For me, FMA is unique as it has successfully mangaed to meld several categories (mainly dark) into one anime. I've yet to see any other show (except SHnY), which has sparked as much debate. Oh, and Droesk. The GotF bit? Sorry about that. I was confusing your categorisation with someone else's. My bad :) |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| Well I could only agree Archaeon. All those conversation came up with conclusion that the line between dark and light anime can be sometimes very thin, and that line probably won't ever be defined. FMA is such specific anime that it confuses almost all members, if the talk would be about naruto everyone would clearlny say a no. Archaeon said: Unfortunately, there are shows that are effectively all atmosphere and no plot (the most famous being Fantasia, although the format for that movie is not a hard and fast rule). The anime equivalents are generally completely diabolical (Eiken, for example). Ok, I understand that it is possible. What I wanted to say is that, even when atmosphere is created by images and music, without good story this atmosphere will be lacking something. And so it won't bo so good as with great plot. Archaeon said: Oh, and Droesk. The GotF bit? Sorry about that. I was confusing your categorisation with someone else's. My bad :) No worries ^_^ |
| I see what you mean about the obsession bit and I cant really refute it. I've been in over my head for a while here since I've only seen FMA once and it was a couple years ago. I cant really remember too many of the specifics to give examples. Not to mention I've previously only used my instincts to classify an anime as dark and never really taken such a logical approach to it. I dont think dark is so much about filling specific criteria and containing x,y, and z concepts as much as it is about leaving the viewer with a particular feeling during and after watching. Since I'm not one to sit over someone's shoulder and tell them how they are supposed to feel while watching a show, I'm likewise not going to say FMA shouldn't be on the dark anime relations list. |
| I'm pretty much the same. The main reason I got into this debate is because I thought the classification was too narrow in the first place. I wouldn't say you were in over your head though. You've been putting forward valid, logical arguments (unlike most other people I might add). I think because people like ourselves, Droesk, Umbra, Ashura, Dark Flash et al, have become involved in the discussion, people have started paying more attention to it. Hopefully this discussion will help people look at anime in a different way. |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
Archaeon said: I'm pretty much the same. The main reason I got into this debate is because I thought the classification was too narrow in the first place. I wouldn't say you were in over your head though. You've been putting forward valid, logical arguments (unlike most other people I might add). I think because people like ourselves, Droesk, Umbra, Ashura, Dark Flash et al, have become involved in the discussion, people have started paying more attention to it. Hopefully this discussion will help people look at anime in a different way. thank u for the nice compliment Archaeon. and as the same as u i do hope people would look at anime in a different way after this discussion. |
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| I am suprised, how the discussion turned out to be. Before I started this I feared it might get out of hand, but now I am reading a friendly discussion on a high level. It really earned my respekt. I think that especially BlackMagic were great in explaining and had some ideas about (dark) anime in general, that were fascinating me(for example the cake system), so I made him to an admin. I also want to underline following fact: Anime is serious bussiness. So what to do with FMA? May be FMA is truly inbetween of dark and light anime. There is sometimes more to somethiing, then just black and white, but for the Relation List there are only two options: on the list or not. The poll result shows less then 5 % difference in between the options. I thought up a compromise: FMA goes from the list but gets an entry in the club describtion, that would work like a honor place for FMA. What do you think? |
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| To be honest I'm not sure if that would work, especially as FMA isn't the only anime in the relations list to fall into this "grey" category. I, for one, found FMA to be one of the darkest I've seen, and for me, the use of bright colours only served to intensify the dark sections of the story. If FMA is to be removed from the list, then so should the following shows: Black Blood Brothers Black Lagoon Blue Seed Elfen Lied (for the colour palette and for the fact that Lucy's dual personalities effectively cancel each other out - the show is meant to be funny when she is in her "innocent" form). Ghost Hunt NHK ni Youkoso! Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei Rozen Maiden TOKKO Is Chrno Crusade considered a "dark" anime. Yes, it has a little ecchi and some comedy in the beginning, but that's pretty much a buffer for the harrowing events later on. FMA is pretty much cut from the same cloth. NHK ni Youkoso is a comedy, along with Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei, yet they will remain on the list. As I have said in my previous posts, the classification for "dark" in this club should not be as restrictive as it is. The way anime is shown is evolving, and the need for adhering to the old classifications has gone out of the window. Take Higurashi for example. It's extremely dark, yet doesn't obey the rule of muted colours. Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei is effectively a parody of "dark", while NHK satirises the life of a NEET. Both are considered dark with no arguments. Yet FMA, with some of the most harrowing scenes of human torture and suffering will be removed? I ask everyone again - outside of hentai, when was the last time a character was raped and lost her mind and ability to speak because of the trauma? That's what happens to Rose in FMA. Shows like Zombie Loan, Ergo Proxy, etc, do not show anything like this. They don't show the consequences of obsession, or selfish actions, or just general pschotic behaviour. These shows don't kill off one of the fans favourite characters. If these shows don't show the true extent of human suffering, torture, pain, guilt, rage, obsession, desire, hatred, guilt, etc, then why are we considering removing a show that does simply because it has a few comedic moments? |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| I think the problem we ran into here is that the poll wasn't specific enough. Just looking at the poll results it would appear we have 2 schools of thought here. Unfortunately, I think we have 3. People who consider FMA as dark (therefore it should be on the list) People who don't consider FMA as dark (but don't care if it's on the list) People who don't consider FMA as dark (and want it removed from the list) The vote is pretty even, but while all those in the "yes" category want FMA on the list, not all those in the "no" category want it removed. Because of this, the poll might not be as even as it appears. I don't think the matter was expected to go the distance like this lol. //Something that I just thought of might shine a little more light on things. I think there is a very important criteria that hasn't gotten much mention and that is the Target Audience for an anime. For whatever reason this only just sunk in with me. Back when I tried making a list of criteria for dark anime, I came up with a number of things dark anime should have. At first glance, it looked good...until I applied that list to Naruto and saw it fit lol. Then instead of thinking about what dark anime should have, I tried looking at what it shouldn't have. I didn't come up with much since I can't remember enough of the specifics from FMA. The only thing I could come up with was the comic element. Berserk (the manga) throws in a little comic relief without upsetting the dark mood too much by limiting the comedy to the character of Puck. Though lovable, he technically had very little to do with the actual storyline other than to give us little parodies of Doraemon. I haven't seen NHK ni Youkoso myself yet so I'm lacking in substance for a more in depth comedy/dark response. But one thing I noticed was that there were a number of people who admitted to dark elements in FMA, but just couldn't shake free of the shounen feel. To paraphrase this a bit: shounen anime targets a younger audience. Looking at the relations list for the club, one can't help but notice that most shows are targeted toward a mature audience. I think we have cut to the heart of the problem here. Evidently, less dark subject matter is needed for a mature anime to be considered dark. Consider all the crazy stuff that happens in animes like Bleach, Naruto, and even DragonBall Z. Scoff at first if you like, but all shows involve apocalyptic elements, main characters getting killed, and many other dark elements...yet you never really feel the intensity you get in their more mature anime counterparts. |
BlackMagicDec 10, 2007 6:29 PM
BlackMagic said: I think the problem we ran into here is that the poll wasn't specific enough. Just looking at the poll results it would appear we have 2 schools of thought here. Unfortunately, I think we have 3. People who consider FMA as dark (therefore it should be on the list) People who don't consider FMA as dark (but don't care if it's on the list) People who don't consider FMA as dark (and want it removed from the list) I second the motion! It also seems to me everyone went into this poll with their opinion of whether FMA is dark ENOUGH, not if it should be on the list at all. BlackMagic's idea of a more specific poll seems very fair. I too couldn't believe of the overall input and participation of the gray aspects of FMA. I also got a little worried when it got a little ugly but I'm glad everyone from either side now is taking the opinion of the opposite side gracefully. :) |
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BlackMagic said: I think the problem we ran into here is that the poll wasn't specific enough. Just looking at the poll results it would appear we have 2 schools of thought here. Unfortunately, I think we have 3. People who consider FMA as dark (therefore it should be on the list) People who don't consider FMA as dark (but don't care if it's on the list) People who don't consider FMA as dark (and want it removed from the list) The vote is pretty even, but while all those in the "yes" category want FMA on the list, not all those in the "no" category want it removed. Because of this, the poll might not be as even as it appears. I don't think the matter was expected to go the distance like this lol. //Something that I just thought of might shine a little more light on things. I think there is a very important criteria that hasn't gotten much mention and that is the Target Audience for an anime. For whatever reason this only just sunk in with me. Back when I tried making a list of criteria for dark anime, I came up with a number of things dark anime should have. At first glance, it looked good...until I applied that list to Naruto and saw it fit lol. Then instead of thinking about what dark anime should have, I tried looking at what it shouldn't have. I didn't come up with much since I can't remember enough of the specifics from FMA. The only thing I could come up with was the comic element. Berserk (the manga) throws in a little comic relief without upsetting the dark mood too much by limiting the comedy to the character of Puck. Though lovable, he technically had very little to do with the actual storyline other than to give us little parodies of Doraemon. I haven't seen NHK ni Youkoso myself yet so I'm lacking in substance for a more in depth comedy/dark response. But one thing I noticed was that there were a number of people who admitted to dark elements in FMA, but just couldn't shake free of the shounen feel. To paraphrase this a bit: shounen anime targets a younger audience. Looking at the relations list for the club, one can't help but notice that most shows are targeted toward a mature audience. I think we have cut to the heart of the problem here. Evidently, less dark subject matter is needed for a mature anime to be considered dark. Consider all the crazy stuff that happens in animes like Bleach, Naruto, and even DragonBall Z. Scoff at first if you like, but all shows involve apocalyptic elements, main characters getting killed, and many other dark elements...yet you never really feel the intensity you get in their more mature anime counterparts. I couldn't have put it better myself. Your right about the target audience as well. I think what's happened to FMA is that the creators tried to make it appeal to as wide an audience as possible. That's why many people couldn't get past the comic elements. A lot of the more mature viewers of the show recognised that many of the themes covered aspects of human behaviour that may not have been fully understood by younger viewers. That's not to say that younger viewers didn't understand the show at all. I'm just saying that not all the dark aspects of the show were readily apparent, unlike other straightforward dark animes. I'm wondering if anyone has read the manga. I've only managed to find a few volumes, but the overall feel of the manga (as far as my limited reading goes that is), seems to be much darker than the anime itself. I can think of a few other shows that tried to be several genres at once, and the success rate varies from great to abysmal. FMA is one of the few I've seen though, that took very mature themes (like obsession, revenge, hatred, power, futility, etc), and tried to make them available to a younger audience. It has succeeded in one respect, in that it has become extremely popular and controversial. Where it failed though, was in the fact that the creators went a little overboard with the comedic side of the show. A show like FMA does need lighthearted moments (otherwise it would be too depressing to watch), and as much as I like the show, even I will agree that there were too many overly exagerrated comedic faces. I didn't really notice them the first time I watched the show as I was paying attention to the story, but I found they started grating when I watched it the second time. That's not to say I'm changing my vote though :) I still consider FMA to be amongst the darkest animes available purely on content (during the many darker sections of the story that is), story and character development. Balck Magic mentions NHK ni Youkoso! This is another extremely dark show, but in a very different way. It is technically a satire of the hikkikimori culture, but many of the themes won't be understood by younger viewers (unless they've lived and worked away from home for a while - unemployment can drive you nuts). I actually found many of the themes in NHK very relevant to the area of the UK I live in, particularly because of the high unemployment rate. I know many people who have fallen into what is effectively a hikkikimori lifestyle because of unemployment depression or other mental or physical issues. I understand whatyou're saying with regards to DBZ, Bleach and Naruto btw Black Magic. The one problem though, is that characters in DBZ never really die. Just gather the dragonballs and wish them back to life. Even though it is apocalyptic, the fact that no one really dies, and there is no real tragedy or depression or the like, plus the fact that the comedy played a major part of the show, means I, at least, wouldn't include it as a dark anime. But I can see how it would fit the criteria. Bleach is a little more difficult to categorise, dealing as it doeswith the spirit world. Once again though, the problem is that the main characters don't really have anyt real issues to deal with which would help them grow as characters (Ichigo losing his mother doesn't count as he didn't so much grow as petrify). Dealing with monsters, spirits, hollows, vampires, etc, shouldn't be the main crtieria for selecting a dark anime. Nor should the fact that the main characters all have serious faces, speak in serious tones, and deal with serious issues, be a main criteria for selecting a dark anime. There's such a thing as being too serious (at which point it just becomes comedy). Naruto would have fallen into the same category as Bleach for me, if it wasn't for the fact that I found Naruto so annoying (believe it!), and Sasuke so EMO. That and Naruto seems to be more of a comedy with a dash of darkness. As you say Black Magic, Shounen anime targets a younger audience. FMA's problem is that the creators couldn't decide whether they wanted to make it a shounen anime or a mature, dark anime, so it's ended up a bit of everything. If they'd stuck to the atmosphere I saw in the few volumes of the manga I read, we wouldn't even be having this poll. |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
BlackMagic said: I think the problem we ran into here is that the poll wasn't specific enough. Just looking at the poll results it would appear we have 2 schools of thought here. Unfortunately, I think we have 3. People who consider FMA as dark (therefore it should be on the list) People who don't consider FMA as dark (but don't care if it's on the list) People who don't consider FMA as dark (and want it removed from the list) The vote is pretty even, but while all those in the "yes" category want FMA on the list, not all those in the "no" category want it removed. Because of this, the poll might not be as even as it appears. I don't think the matter was expected to go the distance like this lol. I second that. my fault ^^'' I was too harsh with making the poll and haven't thought through it enough. Archaeon said: I couldn't have put it better myself. Your right about the target audience as well. I think what's happened to FMA is that the creators tried to make it appeal to as wide an audience as possible. That's why many people couldn't get past the comic elements. A lot of the more mature viewers of the show recognised that many of the themes covered aspects of human behaviour that may not have been fully understood by younger viewers. That's not to say that younger viewers didn't understand the show at all. I'm just saying that not all the dark aspects of the show were readily apparent, unlike other straightforward dark animes. When I watched FMA(I was 19) the first time, I questened myself: "Would I understand FMA, if I would watch it 5 years ago?" I think I wouldn't value aspects in FMA like war the right way and pay more attention to the light aspects. I don't think FMA is comparable to Bleach or Naruto. FMA is a special shonen and I hav yet to watch a shonen like FMA. In Bleach the good guys scream a bit and have the power to save the world, it might be entertaining (I watched myself Bleach alot), but that's not how FMA works. What FMA has and other shonen not is mercilessness of life. In FMA there are strict limits and the charas can't ignore them no matter how much they try. Skolem said: genre (which still has to be defined...)? This is the biggest problem here. Can't remind who it was, but someone postet here that a dark anime can't really be defined by specific criteria, but by the feel and the atmosphere of the anime. But everyone feels another way. The half of the voters said voted for yes, cause they felt that FMA is dark. The other half not, but alot of them posted, that they reallise the dark aspects, but it wasn't enough or still something was missing for a "yes"- vote. So I thinmk, that there wouldn't be a problem with FMA staying on the list. |
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Dima said: I think, that there wouldn't be a problem with FMA staying on the list. YAY. thats good news ^_^ Dima said: When I watched FMA(I was 19) the first time, I questened myself: "Would I understand FMA, if I would watch it 5 years ago?" i dont think it is reason of age or how old we are. its the fact how we think about the anime. i watched FMA at the beginning of last year when i was 14.....well all doesn't matters now. |
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crowslayer91 said: i dont think it matters how old you are as much as what stat of maturity youre in. i think FMA was so well put together that it reaches both an audience that just wants something to watch, and an audience that also appeases the intellect with serious issues on human nature. i mean. at age 13, youre definitely just probably going to brush it off as another anime on your list and forget about it in like 3 weeks. but maybe youre like 20 or something older & more mature and you really get what the anime is really revolving around. Thanks. That's what I wanted to say :) maturity ... right! ^^ |
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crowslayer91 said: i dont think it matters how old you are as much as what stat of maturity youre in. i think FMA was so well put together that it reaches both an audience that just wants something to watch, and an audience that also appeases the intellect with serious issues on human nature. i mean. at age 13, youre definitely just probably going to brush it off as another anime on your list and forget about it in like 3 weeks. but maybe youre like 20 or something older & more mature and you really get what the anime is really revolving around. well i did not. i remember all the contents of what happened in it all those stuff. hehe well it may be cuz i do re-watch it now and then. and in case u may have misunderstood i said 14 not 13. and one more thing i think i did say that "age doesn't matters". |
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Dima said: So I think, that there wouldn't be a problem with FMA staying on the list. We just went through a long, heated discussion and voted for no reason whatsoever? It's clear 53-47, that its not dark -- therefore, it should be removed from the list. You should respect the majority's wishes. |
JLS said: We just went through a long, heated discussion and voted for no reason whatsoever? It's clear 53-47, that its not dark -- therefore, it should be removed from the list. You should respect the majority's wishes. It wasn't quite for nothing, we had a civilised discussion with coherent and logical explanations on both FMA and what makes a dark anime, to say the least. Also, this may be a little out of point but if you've read "Enemy of the People" by Arthur Miller, the majority is not always right. |
 "I'll be waiting in the future." - Chiaki Mamiya |
| Well, format of the poll aside,something it seems we need to agree upon beforehand is what proportion is necessary to remove an item from the list. 53-47% is so close that I'm inclined to call this one a hung jury. I think for future polls, a good standard to meet would be 2/3 (this is the standard that must be met for legislation in the Senate and House of Representatives...I think lol) Despite this, it seems many people have found the discussion to be interesting and might possibly lead some of us to view anime differently. If this is the case, then we can't say it was all for nothing ^^ //I'm also working on a summary of most of this thread's discussion. I'll probably make a new thread of it so the information is easier to read and doesn't get lost in the many pages of this thread. |
BlackMagicDec 20, 2007 10:10 PM
crowslayer91 said: Dark-Flash said: crowslayer91 said: i dont think it matters how old you are as much as what stat of maturity youre in. i think FMA was so well put together that it reaches both an audience that just wants something to watch, and an audience that also appeases the intellect with serious issues on human nature. i mean. at age 13, youre definitely just probably going to brush it off as another anime on your list and forget about it in like 3 weeks. but maybe youre like 20 or something older & more mature and you really get what the anime is really revolving around. well i did not. i remember all the contents of what happened in it all those stuff. hehe well it may be cuz i do re-watch it now and then. and in case u may have misunderstood i said 14 not 13. and one more thing i think i did say that "age doesn't matters". i said 13 because i wasnt referring to you. but to preteens/uncomplex people for whom it is all but impossible to brush this anime off as happy-go-lucky. silly =P hehe.i m a bit silly sometimes.sorry for my stupidity but u r the same age as me.............. just noticed it |
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| i think that it would have been better if a discussion thread was made instead of a poll. |
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| Not at all, its a happy anime with certain dark parts. The atmosphere is mostly funny and bright until the last few episodes |
 I__u_p_p_e_d__m_y__s_t_a_n_d_a_r_d_s_,__s_o__U_P__y_o_u_r_s! |
| I'm wondering if you actually read any of the discussions Drastikhate? The undercurrent of the story is always dark, and one of the main themes of the story is obsession and it's cost on the main characters and those they come into contact with. |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| There are 115 episodes and 2 movies. When and if an episode focuses on the plot it brings out the dark nature of the story. That would be a dark episode. Sometimes the episode focuses on non plot related events, occasionally something tragic and sobering happens. That is an episode depicting life. Just like bleach, cowboy bebop, samurai champloo, or code geass you can't flat out say the "Show" is dark. The episodes certainly can swing one way or the other though. |
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