Attack on Titan
biggest flaw?
| The series Monster does this kind of thing with a children's book which is representative of some of the characters in the series. I think that is an example of good foreshadowing in the way you describe. Another example is in the book 1984 where MC had some friends that were briefly mentioned who were disappeared by ingsoc and that alluds to the ending of that book as well. those characters were only mentioned in passing. |
 People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
Reply to ma1kawa11
INoLuv said:
@ma1kawa11 I am surprised you did not call me a nazi, like you did when you compared the eldians inside the wall being attacked through decades by titans sent from marley and that are harsh targets of bigotry by marley and the world to literally the nazis and hitler.
But i am not surprised that you completely ignored everything i said on my comment to repeat the overused "genocide is wrong" (which i already agreed on my comment itself) to show your moral high ground in comparison to me.
I will end repeating something here: No, the story is not about eren´s "issue" with the marleyans nor did i justified the rumbling because "eren has an issue with them, so rumbling is justified".
This right here is what i dislike the most about any debate around AoT, you cant even discuss normally. What is funny is that i didnt even assume anything of the other person but they already are assuming who knows what from me. Oh well
@ma1kawa11 I am surprised you did not call me a nazi, like you did when you compared the eldians inside the wall being attacked through decades by titans sent from marley and that are harsh targets of bigotry by marley and the world to literally the nazis and hitler.
But i am not surprised that you completely ignored everything i said on my comment to repeat the overused "genocide is wrong" (which i already agreed on my comment itself) to show your moral high ground in comparison to me.
I will end repeating something here: No, the story is not about eren´s "issue" with the marleyans nor did i justified the rumbling because "eren has an issue with them, so rumbling is justified".
This right here is what i dislike the most about any debate around AoT, you cant even discuss normally. What is funny is that i didnt even assume anything of the other person but they already are assuming who knows what from me. Oh well
the eldian and Marley conflict is a direct comparison to Nazi Germany's Holocaust of the Jews during world war 2... if it were written from hitlers perspective.
Hitler attempted to justify genocide by portraying Jewish people as inhumane people who would ultimately destroy themselves. and we'll AoT portrays a society of people who.... it turns out in the final season turn into monsters due to a genetic defect and were quarantined to an island for fear of them destroying the world....
and we'll... apparently the writer in all of his wisdom thought it would be a good idea for Eren, to attempt to destroy the world in a way that confirmed the fears of everyone.
I think this is an awful and irresponsible way to handle the topic.
and I didn't call you a Nazi because I was trying to be polite as I could with you but holy fuck you aren't helping your case dude.
| @ma1kawa11 Haha now you are calling me a nazi without saying it, actually admitting you think i am a nazi. No need to be polite, i got it. Priceless. My second reply to you not only did more than enough but perfectly got my point across, so it is basically finished with that one. What i find odd about your comment is this odd quote: "Hitler attempted to justify genocide by portraying Jewish people as inhumane people who would ultimately destroy themselves. and we'll AoT portrays a society of people who.... it turns out in the final season turn into monsters due to a genetic defect and were quarantined to an island for fear of them destroying the world...." So... what do you wanna say what that quote? You implied BEFORE that having a negative view of the marleyans by the eldians is akin to the antissemitism of the nazis and hitler, to which i made VERY obviously in my reply that the eldians are VICTIMS, so what i assumed (very generously) that you would understand from what i said? That the the negative view that the eldians, eren and even the yeagerists would have of the outside world are not the same thing as the antissemitism of the nazis against the jews, because the eldians were actually LITERALLY VICTIMS of marley while the nazis were conspiracy theorists who blamed the jews for the problems of germany. I made it very clear that justifying the rumbling from the perspective of an eldian and of eren is perfectly understandable and reasonable in my first comment, while BLATANTLY saying that you cannot justify the holocaust at all. The holocaust and the rumbling are not the same thing, hitler and eren are not the same, it was commit genocide or suffer genocide. But apparently you missed all of that or didnt even understood, prefering to assume things. Now in this new comment of yours, in that same paragraph that i did quote, you are saying that the marleyans are akin to hitler in the way they judged and quarantined the eldians, right? If so, i dont understand why that would be related to what i said, i am not talking about the marleyans but about the eldians, eren and the rumbling which you compared to the nazis and hitler yourself (which i argued against that since my first comment). Again, i find it odd... i am not arguing against that notion for the marleyans. "and we'll... apparently the writer in all of his wisdom thought it would be a good idea for Eren, to attempt to destroy the world in a way that confirmed the fears of everyone." You are just describing the plot at this point, even if missing key details along the way, like ignoring that marley was constantly attacking paradis (which inevitably would lead, reasonably so, to the eldians fighting back and eren´s rumbling REGARDLESS). So yes, even eren´s "issue" had an understandable origin, eren was a traumatized victim from the start and knew everything that marley did and what the rest of the nations along with marley thought and wanted for paradis and the eldians. So? I responded very well, maybe even for another eventual replies that may appear. As for you, i dont think any of your points made sense, which would be fine with more chill normal talk to clarify (now i clarified more than enough even your lack of it), except for the fact that you think i am akin to a nazi for my opinion on the rumbling, which i dont need to convince you otherwise, i already did more than enough explaining my own comments to a random more akin to a broken record (ops... i compared you to a broken record while you compared me to nazis, guess we are even). Whatever at the end |
INoLuvJul 17, 5:14 PM
| it is the writers responsibility to watch out for these issues and you cannot justify it because of some other thing in the plot which somehow makes it okay. that dodges the actual problem. it is, an extremely common ideology, back then, and today in modern neo Nazi circles, that committing a genocide is justifiable because of the genocided group being some kind of threat to the majority. In real life this is always not true and only serves as an excuse to commit atrocities. AoT actually attempts to write a scenario where this absurd justification has merit. it is irresponsible and mishandles the topic. AoT does not handle the topic of genocide well. Nothing you say will change that. The fact that you somehow feel it is within an acceptable preview to argue that genocide in the series was justified only proves my point further. I can reiterate this as many times as you need. you are missing the Forrest for the trees. And in doing so you are justifying a genocide. I do not see how you think that me pointing out the parallels of you defending this as some kind of gotcha for you. You should realize how you are going to appear to the majority of people who read this thread. |
ma1kawa11Jul 17, 5:21 PM
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
riqmoran said: i mean that's what it is. i dont see the problem. the focus on Gabi is brief. it coincides with the pivotal events that lead to Eren's downfall. and it distills the meaning of the entire story while giving us a happy ending that then leads into the bad ending. she is in the forefront and then fades into the background once she fulfills her role. this is honestly the best utilized character in the story. it is in fact a story within a story that just happens to run alongside the main plot. it starts out as a separate story, but then it perfectly meshes into the main plot. I think at this point we will just have to agree to disagree. I'm not sure if anything you or I say is capable of changing each other's minds. especially since you didn't talk about that I said the focus on gabi is very much within the main cast of characters and arguably she IS the main character of the first part of the final season. regardless, I do wanna say I did enjoy talking with you about it. also if you liked bocchi the rock you may enjoy nichijou: my ordinary life, or azumanga daiou. they are in a similar genre. |
ma1kawa11Jul 17, 5:29 PM
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
| I would have preferred a negative ending that diverged at the end of the third season. I think explaining exactly why the Titans exist is somewhat unnecessary to the story, or at least, the explanation that we were specifically given was unnecessary. the negative ending I would have preferred is something along the lines of humanity dying out to the Titans on the island with the last wall being breached, sort of a commentary of the meaning and purpose of existence from a nihilistic point of view. of course for that to actually work a lot of the story would have had to been changed from the previous seasons because there are too many clues otherwise. the cyclical type of ending isn't inherently bad but it doesn't mesh well with AoTs mishandling or the topic of genocide. Where cyclical endings do work well are the dark souls series and elden ring. it isn't an inherently bad ending to use I just don't think it worked well for aot |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
keinboesewicht said: @ma1kawa11 you keep bringing up other series, movies and books, that you did like and how they handled things better than attack on titan. why not try seeing it as a positive thing that aot did it differently. if everything that happened in the series reminded you of something you already watched or read, that would be kinda boring, no? so by calling aot predictable but wanting it to do things like other stories have already done you are actually kinda contradicting yourself and im not trying to fit you into any box. like i said your argumentation has given me plenty of reason to believe that youre trying to cope I enjoy things which are new so long as they are done in a way that works. there are, within all art forms, rules which describe what things work and what don't. for instance in music there are rules surrounding the compositional style of the baroque period. Similarly In painting there are rules as to how one holds their hand. it is similar in storytelling. creativity is important but there are still necessary rules which must be followed in order to produce a good story. sometimes these rules can be broken but that is an exception of course. I do not mean to say that these rules are exactly objective in nature but they do still exist and there tends to be a general consensus for them. When I say that I dislike the direction the series went it is because I think it breaks some of these rules and not in a good way. that is of course, my opinion. I do not believe I am making a contradiction by saying I wished for more creativity in a way that adhered to those rules, at least from my perspective. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
| I would also like to clarify. I use examples of other forms of literature merely as a way to give an example of a successful implementation of something like a character foil etc. as a way to analyze why that is the case. I am not asking for every story to copy things and be unoriginal. it is just important to recognize why something is successful because through that you can also start to understand why something isn't. trying to rationalize my opinions as cope is in fact putting me in a box which is why I pointed that out earlier. you have not even specified what you believe to be cope in the first place. when you make grand statements like that it comes off as ingenuine even if that was unintentional. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
keinboesewicht said: ma1kawa11 said: I would also like to clarify. I use examples of other forms of literature merely as a way to give an example of a successful implementation of something like a character foil etc. as a way to analyze why that is the case. I am not asking for every story to copy things and be unoriginal. it is just important to recognize why something is successful because through that you can also start to understand why something isn't. trying to rationalize my opinions as cope is in fact putting me in a box which is why I pointed that out earlier. you have not even specified what you believe to be cope in the first place. when you make grand statements like that it comes off as ingenuine even if that was unintentional. theyre completely different stories and media so they can go different ways and still be very good. the only thing you accomplish by doing that is, making people believe you want all your stories go play out the same like i said earlier. and i did clarify the first time i made that statement, i just didnt see the need to repeat that as well. i didnt mean to hurt your feelings though so if thats the case i am sorry. I am sorry but I do not know how I can explain to you In a more clear way than I already have. It is completely within my right as a viewer and critic to say something did not work. and just because something is different does not make it better (and in AoT case it isn't even different or unique at all). this is the last time I am going to reiterate this because I don't want to feel as if we are just talking in circles because that would just waste both of our time we could be spending doing things more worthwhile. And I get you aren't trying to be ingenuine, I am just frustrated from repeating myself so I will probably stop responding. at the very least please don't take this as me disliking you just because we disagree on this. I saw you enjoyed mononoke, I enjoyed that show as well. |
ma1kawa11Jul 18, 2:14 AM
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
ma1kawa11 said: INoLuv said: Eren's rumbling was justifiable, basically retaliatory genocide (dont forget that marley was already sending titans to paradis for decades, they were already attacking paradis), while hitler's holocaust cannot be justified in any way whatsoever, so it always baffles me when people make such comparisons. When i see the fanbase agreeing with the avengers crew that eren should be stopped because "genocide is wrong", seems like the yeagerists and eren should have simply agreed to let the rest of the world and marley genocide paradis and the eldians (them and their own people/families) for the sake of a higher moral ground or basically follow zeke's defeatist plan of sterilization (sacrificing the capacity to have a family of eldians and future as nation to the will of marley). Seems like most of the fanbase actually would have prefered for the paradis to simply get decimated and bend to marley and the outside world. Obviously genocide is wrong, BUT genocide in retaliation, even if innocent people are killed as a price is not only justifiable in the extreme scenario of attack on titan but it is the safest course of action (the ending in the credits only reinforced that, one can interpret), so it was a reasonable measure. At the end, Marley f-ed around and found out, same with all of those who participated in the hatred and prejudice (naturally people unrelated and that werent like that suffered the consequences as well). Not gonna comment on the whole metaphysics and messy nature of eren's "knowledge" of the past and future and all of that stuff, which was the last straw to make matters worse, i am not here to bash the ending and those that liked it, just to comment on that debate about the rumbling this is just not true. a genocide is a genocide. there is no ifs or butts. people who commit genocide also like to portray themselves as victims and as being justified because they are being aggressed upon. even the Nazis did this. attack on Titan mishandles the topic "at best", because it's possible for people like yourself to attempt to make this kind of argument about the series due to the way it is portrayed in the anime. Eren having an issue with the marlies does not mean the entirety of the world including innocent people who are completely unaware of the situation and do not participate in it deserve to die. Didnt the alliance technically justified the genocide of the yeagerists when they were planning to take the boat to get to Eren? Thats genocide, they justified it. Maybe they would say its wrong but thats also what the yeagerists think, the genocide they are letting happen is wrong but necessary for their survival. The whole world declared war on them, to be eradicated. They cant just sit back and let it happen. When Floch says "Our devils are our only hope", he accepts hes in the wrong but that devil is necessary for the people of paradis. |
riqmoran said: i dont see how a character is bad just because it was introduced in the last third of the story. Like what? You can have good characters with limited screentime, good foil characters too. Gabi is a great example of this. Not only that, it makes perfect sense for Gabi to be NEW, her character was the one to make us realize Marleys POV being similar as That Day. She's like a female eren, and then her development in realizing that the supposed "devils" are not devils. So, despite her shooting my fav floch when he was about to hit the boat, i still dont dislike her at all. A needed characer, thats all i have to say. I think those people that are very attached to the main characters are rarely open to POVs from new characters. |
| Reiner should have died. |
No, this isn't my signature. |
vinnywizanime said: ma1kawa11 said: this is just not true. a genocide is a genocide. there is no ifs or butts. people who commit genocide also like to portray themselves as victims and as being justified because they are being aggressed upon. even the Nazis did this. attack on Titan mishandles the topic "at best", because it's possible for people like yourself to attempt to make this kind of argument about the series due to the way it is portrayed in the anime. Eren having an issue with the marlies does not mean the entirety of the world including innocent people who are completely unaware of the situation and do not participate in it deserve to die. Didnt the alliance technically justified the genocide of the yeagerists when they were planning to take the boat to get to Eren? Thats genocide, they justified it. Maybe they would say its wrong but thats also what the yeagerists think, the genocide they are letting happen is wrong but necessary for their survival. The whole world declared war on them, to be eradicated. They cant just sit back and let it happen. When Floch says "Our devils are our only hope", he accepts hes in the wrong but that devil is necessary for the people of paradis. it is irresponsible of a writer to set up any genocide in a way that has in story justification. the details of the plot do not matter because I am making a criticism of the commentary doing such a thing has on a viewer in real life. catering sympathy in writing for any type of genocide is unacceptable. setting up justification for genocide in writing is unacceptable because it teaches incorrect morale lessons to the viewer. |
People who consider themselves to be Anime Elitists need to learn what grass is. |
ma1kawa11 said: vinnywizanime said: Didnt the alliance technically justified the genocide of the yeagerists when they were planning to take the boat to get to Eren? Thats genocide, they justified it. Maybe they would say its wrong but thats also what the yeagerists think, the genocide they are letting happen is wrong but necessary for their survival. The whole world declared war on them, to be eradicated. They cant just sit back and let it happen. When Floch says "Our devils are our only hope", he accepts hes in the wrong but that devil is necessary for the people of paradis. it is irresponsible of a writer to set up any genocide in a way that has in story justification. the details of the plot do not matter because I am making a criticism of the commentary doing such a thing has on a viewer in real life. catering sympathy in writing for any type of genocide is unacceptable. setting up justification for genocide in writing is unacceptable because it teaches incorrect morale lessons to the viewer. No, its not that the writer justifies it, the only sure lesson or message in Aot was that the cycle of hatred will never end. Other things are just character decisions, their reflections and their conclusions, characters are doing what they think is right, that's not on isayama. Plus, what about the fact that billions of animals are killed everyday for our consumption, that's genocide, one might say they are animals (so are we but just evolved), but if genocide in principle cant be justified, how is this justified? Titans were also genocided, why is that justfied? Because humans convince themselves to feel that they are on a "moral high ground". Its as Eren Kruger said, you can become a god or a devil, all it takes is people to believe it. |
vinnywizanimeJul 18, 8:59 AM
riqmoran said: vinnywizanime said: Not only that, it makes perfect sense for Gabi to be NEW, her character was the one to make us realize Marleys POV being similar as That Day. She's like a female eren, and then her development in realizing that the supposed "devils" are not devils. So, despite her shooting my fav floch when he was about to hit the boat, i still dont dislike her at all. A needed characer, thats all i have to say. I think those people that are very attached to the main characters are rarely open to POVs from new characters. wait i forgot Gabi shoots Floch. and Floch is my favorite character besides Gabi lol. Oh, thats an odd combination for fav aot characters i would say, but both being well written is the similarity. |
riqmoran said: to add to the other convo going on, you do unfortunately have to admit there is an (unintentional?) endorsement of a full rumbling. why? because the juxtaposition of the incomplete rumbling, Armin's attempt to broker peace treaties, and the nuking of paradis carry with it the implication that a full rumbling would have been more effective in allowing the Eldeans to survive. The Eldeans have the moral highground, so the implication being that the only way the good guys get to survive is if they commit full on genocide is a problem. you cant get mad at people for pointing out the logical conclusion from the events in the story as they are written. I disagree with that conclusion and think theres an obvious middle gound being ignored, but the story doesnt explore that. Yes, no doubt a full rumbling wouldve been more effective, no one's denying that, its just the reality of it. Willy Tybur declared war on paradis w/ all nations, in terms of Paradis safety, yes its the best option. For the world, it was the Euthanasia plan. Eldians pretty much represent all repressed races in real life, i disagree w/ the author having to go against his own story to suit a morally suitable solution, its his story goddamnit, he writes it how he wants. |
keinboesewicht said: riqmoran said: to add to the other convo going on, you do unfortunately have to admit there is an (unintentional?) endorsement of a full rumbling. why? because the juxtaposition of the incomplete rumbling, Armin's attempt to broker peace treaties, and the nuking of paradis carry with it the implication that a full rumbling would have been more effective in allowing the Eldeans to survive. The Eldeans have the moral highground, so the implication being that the only way the good guys get to survive is if they commit full on genocide is a problem. you cant get mad at people for pointing out the logical conclusion from the events in the story as they are written. I disagree with that conclusion and think theres an obvious middle gound being ignored, but the story doesnt explore that. did we watch the same show? i cant believe youre coming to the conclusion that because the way things went like they did, they shouldve let eren do the full rumbling…. the show absolutely condemns violence and genocide. it appeals to the individuals to make their decisions in order for the least possible amount of people to suffer. but what can you expect from someone who calls flocke, arguably one of the two evilest characters in the whole show „based“… Floch is BASED, always has been. That's our majesty after all 👑. |
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