Newly released anime and their scores on MAL

bitchassdarius said:

>I said "you can get a firm grasp at its basic elements in production in 5 minutes", not "I can grasp everything essential to a show within the first 5 minutes".
hint: it's the same thing, you just juggled the words around

JustMonaka said:
You CAN get a firm grasp of the directing, visual, OP/ED (assuming they had one), voice acting, character design, cinematography, symbolism, sound design, on and on within the first 5 minutes of the show.

Plus, it's not like you can't change the score. I don't see the problem of rating it early.

bitchassdarius said:

>Its visual is in the same style between the 5 minutes and the whole show. The characters are heavily animated, just like the whole show. Nothing difference in the sound. No change in the character. It's dialogue heavy in the first 5 minutes, just like the whole show. If anything, the 5 minutes establishes who the MC is and foreshadows his character arc.
yeah, sounds like you didn't watch hyouka lol. you don't even have to watch it to know you're wrong, you could just read interviews with the director. takemoto gave free reign to each episode director on how they would interpret the deduction scenes, so each episode has a distinct style from the next one. it's cool though, now i know you just don't know what you're talking about. i can end the discussion here, but i'm interested how you would bungle the analyses of the first 5 minutes of the other shows i provided as examples. i'm sure they would be pretty funny to read.

bitchassdarius said:

>If you fail to interest them in 5 minutes, there's a high chance some of them would turn away from your show, meaning you're losing profit. Every production knows this.
producing an interesting 5 minutes isn't tantamount to laying all your cards on the table. it's not the same, but i guess you can try to keep morphing your argument

JustMonaka said:

Hint: It's not. "everything essential" would include storytelling, character development, plot points, ending, etc.

In case you forgot, here's the list of things I mentioned:


Is there a change in art style overall? No? OK
Is there a change in character design? No? OK
Animation? Relatively the same? OK
What about the character? They stay the same? OK
The sound design? Well, no difference in foley, same stock of sound effect and OST, the VAs are certainly the same. OK.
Is there any one episode that you watch and go "wow, this is totally different from every episode before it"? No? OK.

All the difference comes from abstract deduction scenes. One, those scenes contribute to, like, 10% of the show. Two, the OP visual gave it away anyway that there would be some abstract concepts. Three, those scenes are the visualization of what's inside the character's head, of course they would look different.

I believe I did mention that it is entirely possible for the director to keep their individual style while creating a work that's in other people style. Sure, those episode directors could do whatever they want with the scene, but they still need to do it under impression that they're working on Hyouka.


How many times do I have to mention that I mean "basic elements that makes up animation" and not "everything that one show can do"?

bitchassdarius said:
>"everything essential" would include storytelling, character development, plot points, ending, etc.
you're playing semantics, essential is synonymous with basic, so you just redefined your argument yet again

bitchassdarius said:

>All the difference comes from abstract deduction scenes. One, those scenes contribute to, like, 10% of the show.
wrong conclusion. just because they don't take up much time doesn't mean they aren't some of the most important parts of the show. seriously, it honestly sounds like you didn't watch the show. you should quit talking out of your ass, it's tiring. the directing style is switched up obviously from each episode, you can't argue you would "grasp the show" within the first 5 minutes. you're just wrong, my dude. just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean the directing isn't distinct between episodes.

>Three, those scenes are the visualization of what's inside the character's head, of course they would look different.
yeah, so? were you able to grasp that they would explore characters' minds with different visual styles from the first 5 minutes? of course not, because that's bullshit. nothing about the first 5 minutes tells you the directing would take that approach. if you think otherwise, carefully detail where in the first 5 minutes they do that. you're just saying shit that's irrelevant to your initial post now.

>Sure, those episode directors could do whatever they want with the scene, but they still need to do it under impression that they're working on Hyouka.
this is something that someone who didn't watch hyouka or pay attention while watching it would say. you honestly are trying to tell me you could predict any of this

JustMonaka said:

"basic elements that make up animation" and "everything essential to a show"
Keyword = everything


And this is where you misinterpreted my point, and it's where I've been telling you times and times and times again, but you still keep coming back to it like a broken record. I did NOT say I can predict everything that a show can do from the first 5 minutes. I did NOT say I can foresee every turn the show would take with its story after 5 minutes.

What I DID say is that, if you break the first 5 minutes of a show to its basic elements, you can get a firm grasp of your general impression on the show.

Take Hyouka:
- If you hate its character design and personality, well, you would most likely not interested in their character arc.

- If you hate its visual in which most of the show is in yellowish tone and highly animated in KyoAni-style, you would hate 90% of the show.

- If you hate the voice actors and sound design somehow, there's no coming back as they stay the same throughout the show.

- If you hate its OP/ED, they're minor but you still in fact hate them. This wouldn't change even after you finished the show.

All of these points can be judged within a few minutes of watching, regardless of those abstract deduction scenes. The scenes may improve your opinion on the show, but that doesn't change the fact that you're sitting through the elements that you hate just to watch a small portion that you like. Your opinion may change from a 3/10 to a 7/10 because of the deduction part (what a surprise, that's not impossible!?), but all the elements you hate ARE still there, and they are still your criticism of the show.

Of course, the opposite is true as well. If you already love the show, those scenes may make you think the show is the best thing ever. There's nothing wrong with that.

TL;DR - Again, I said you can get a firm grasp at the basic elements of a show within 5 minutes of watching. I did NOT say you can predict everything the show has to offer within 5 minutes.

bitchassdarius said:

>I did NOT say I can predict everything that a show can do from the first 5 minutes. I did NOT say I can foresee every turn the show would take with its story after 5 minutes.
directing style has nothing to do with narrative turns or whatever, i'm telling you that the first 5 minutes of most good anime will not give you enough information to "grasp the basic elements" of the show simply by the length. good anime tend to be packed with detail and planning that you will not ascertain from the first 5 minutes, in fact, i'm sure the creators of a show would be insulted if you said that.

>if you break the first 5 minutes of a show to its basic elements, you can get a firm grasp of your general impression on the show.
except you didn't say that. you are, in fact, backpedaling and changing your argument. you explicitly said you could determine the cinematography, directing, "sound" (whatever your concept for that entails), symbolism, etc. from the first 5 minutes, which is quite different from "general impression."

TL;DR you changed your statement again lol

JustMonaka said:
You CAN get a firm grasp of the directing, visual, OP/ED (assuming they had one), voice acting, character design, cinematography, symbolism, sound design, on and on within the first 5 minutes of the show.

Plus, it's not like you can't change the score. I don't see the problem of rating it early.

JustMonaka said:
What I DID say is that, if you break the first 5 minutes of a show to its basic elements, you can get a firm grasp of your general impression on the show.

JustMonaka said:


When I said basic, I mean literally, in every sense of word, basic. You know, things like how you place camera, how you transition between scenes, the light and color in your scene, how the voice sounds like, the style of your character (cartoony? realistic?), the background art, dialogue, on and on.

You would need to be brain dead if you can't describe these basic film making technique. And yes, EVERY anime ever contains these basic elements.

In short, all those detail and planning ahead are NOT what I'm talking about.

Also, here's my very first statement:

Here's my latest reply:

See any difference? I surely am not.

bitchassdarius said:

basic means essential, you are just employing semantic arguments (albeit very poor ones) here. you're not saying anything substantial, just being pedantic with your own argument, which you seem to have lost the core idea of in your own word games.

>See any difference? I surely am not.
yes, so what you're telling me is that there's a difference between the words "essential" and "basic" (which there are literally none), but there's no difference between
"firm grasp of the directing, visual, OP/ED (assuming they had one), voice acting, character design, cinematography, symbolism, sound design, on and on within the first 5 minutes of the show."
and
"firm grasp of your general impression on the show."?
this is just you playing word games.

1) they aren't the same.
2) getting a general impression of a show within the first 5 minutes is still retarded. if you can "judge" how you feel about a show within the first 5 minutes, then what you feel about the show is extremely shallow. a majority of shows don't even introduce many important characters within the first 5 minutes.
this is just such a bullshit statement that you're continually rhetorically twisting so you don't have to confront the thought, or lack thereof, put behind its original iteration.

bitchassdarius said:

basic means essential, you are just employing semantic arguments (albeit very poor ones) here. you're not saying anything substantial, just being pedantic with your own argument, which you seem to have lost the core idea of in your own word games.

>See any difference? I surely am not.
yes, so what you're telling me is that there's a difference between the words "essential" and "basic" (which there are literally none), but there's no difference between
"firm grasp of the directing, visual, OP/ED (assuming they had one), voice acting, character design, cinematography, symbolism, sound design, on and on within the first 5 minutes of the show."
and
"firm grasp of your general impression on the show."?
this is just you playing word games.

1) they aren't the same.
2) getting a general impression of a show within the first 5 minutes is still retarded. if you can "judge" how you feel about a show within the first 5 minutes, then what you feel about the show is extremely shallow. a majority of shows don't even introduce many important characters within the first 5 minutes.
this is just such a bullshit statement that you're continually rhetorically twisting so you don't have to confront the thought, or lack thereof, put behind its original iteration.

JustMonaka said:

And here I thought this retarded debate had ended once and for all

You know what? The "employing semantic arguments (albeit very poor ones), not saying anything substantial, just being pedantic with your own argument" can be thrown right back at you.

You aren't adding anything new to the discussion. You're just repeating your same old point over and over and over again, the same old point that I have been explaining to you in every reply and it still somehow goes over your head. This asinine "debate" could have ended long ago if you tried to understand my perspective instead of arguing until the end of the universe. I never changed my argument once, you just never truly understand my point.

This is one last time I'll explain to you, understand it or not is up to you. Frankly, I don't give a damn.

If you break the first 5 minutes of an anime to its basic elements, you can get a firm grasp of your general impression on the show. By "basic elements", I mean the VERY basic things that makes animation an animation.

- Background art is basic element, you take it off and the world would be gone.
- Character design is a basic element, you change it and your scene will be entirely different.
- Directing is a basic element, you take it off and you'd only have the text version of the show
- Voice acting and sound design are basic elements, you take them off and your show would turn into a silent film.
- Admittedly, OP/ED and symbolism are not basic, but they're ones of the easiest things to form an opinion on. Yes, most symbolism ARE universal - you see red, you think of danger etc.

All of theses are the absolute basic that will strongly affect your overall opinion on the show. If you hate everything about its visual, it will take a lot for you to care about the story. In contrary, if you already love everything about these basics, you would be willing to buy a lot of bullshit in every other aspects. (And yes, you don't need to be a genius, neither do the show need to be shallow, to grasp all of these in a few minutes. Literally every anime in existence contain these elements.)

Back to Hyouka for a second, can you really deny that majority of the show doesn't look like this? That this kind of image is not what people think of when talking about Hyouka? That this is not this kind of image that comes up when you type Hyouka into google?

You can't, because THIS is the main style that defines Hyouka. It wouldn't be Hyouka without this color tone, this line art, this background, and this look on the characters. Now, this does NOT mean there can be no other style in the show. If you really think there's no way of blending, and the creator must absolutely pick one style over the other, then your way of thinking is pretty shallow.

What you're trying to "debunk" me on is with the narrative progression, writing, and everything. Those are NOT what I was talking about. You don't need detail and planning for your show to function as a motion picture (AKA animation). You don't need sakuga to have a motion picture. These are extra additions to enhance the presentation. Guess what? If you don't like the basic elements, you most likely wouldn't care about these extras either.

Lastly, read carefully and repeat after me, I did not, repeat, I did NOT say you can judge the show within 5 minutes. What I DID said, is that if you break the first 5 minutes of a show to its basic elements, you can get a firm grasp of your *general* impression on the show.