Criticisms about dubs that made you want to slap your forehead and go, "what the f*** are you talking about?!"
XTApocalypse said: I wasn't just talking about FLCL, I was speaking in general. I think she's overestimating the impact of the language and mannerisms on the quality of a dub. I think you misunderstood her.She also didn't say that FLCL was a bad dub, and says it was good example of the latter style of dubbing done right. JesuOtaku is a dub fan or preferrer, just so you know. I don't think she is buliding up a wall between the two languages nor do I think she is calling for dubs to confrom to a set of rule, she pointing out the obivious: English and Japanese are two different languages. I think she meant that each language has its on quirks that makes each language unique. Such as, as she said, "acting styles, our colloquialisms , our vocal types, etc." Accept it, Embrace it, Make it your own. She appreciates when dubs use those unique quirks to it advantage instead of just copy the Japanese unique quirks. She seems to appreciate the former more often time than the latter. And I do agree with her on this, I don't like when dubs mimic the Japanese verison.I can agree on why she feels it lazy and amatuerish. I can see her point on my she doesn't like the use of honorifics, it's not our language. I like when the dubbing studio get creative and treat it like art instead of just a translation. Anyway, personally, I don't like FLCL's dub. The dub was jarring, though I don't really like too many Japanese comedy anyway. You know they one's with the fast talking or that quick deadpan reply to something riduclous. Because the execution of the Japanese comedic delivery into English usually sounds awful to me, no matter how much the script is tweak. In the end, it all comes down to what you perfer. I like more natural sounding dubs. |
coolcatJun 5, 2012 11:27 AM
 Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
coolcat said: Such as, as she said, "acting styles, our colloquialisms , our vocal types, etc." Accept it, Embrace it, Make it your own. She appreciates when dubs use those unique quirks to it advantage instead of just copy the Japanese unique quirks. And what I'm saying is that it's overthinking things. I don't think there need to be inherently English or Japanese quirks; I don't think using honorifics has an inherently negative impact on the quality of a dub, or an inherently positive one. I don't think any of it is inherently anything. I think it should be all on an absolutely case-by-case basis. Whichever language tends to use what more, it really doesn't matter. If you like FLCL's dub, great; if you don't, great; that's all I care about and that's all that I think matters. NEKOsaki said: Okay, this isn't exactly a criticism about dubs that I hate, but I find it annoying when people insist on pronouncing or spelling the name of a character the Japanese way. For example, the whole Horo or Holo thing from Spice and Wolf or Raito or Light from Death Note. I've even know some people who say Hagane no Renkinjutsush instead of Fullmetal Alchemist! Makes them sound pretentious as hell if you ask me. I know what you're talking about, and unfortunately, despite any and all reason, that's the way the website as a whole seems to be leaning right now. Database titles keep changing to their Japanese counterparts and I no longer have any idea what series is being referenced. The site's logic is that they should default to whichever title is more popularly used overall. But the factor that isn't being considered is context. If you see a string of Japanese syllables and you don't know anything about the series, you'll be clueless. They'll just be a random, meaningless string of characters. If you see the English title of a series you've never seen or heard of, you can usually deduce what it's about to some degree, or at the very least have an easier time remembering it. There are exceptions, granted, but I'm speaking generally; I'm pretty sure no one uses the English title of Urusei Yatsura (Those Obnoxious Aliens). |
XTApocalypse said: coolcat said: Such as, as she said, "acting styles, our colloquialisms , our vocal types, etc." Accept it, Embrace it, Make it your own. She appreciates when dubs use those unique quirks to it advantage instead of just copy the Japanese unique quirks. And what I'm saying is that it's overthinking things. I don't think there need to be inherently English or Japanese quirks; I don't think using honorifics has an inherently negative impact on the quality of a dub, or an inherently positive one. I don't think any of it is inherently anything. I think it should be all on an absolutely case-by-case basis. Whichever language tends to use what more, it really doesn't matter. If you like FLCL's dub, great; if you don't, great; that's all I care about and that's all that I think matters. She's a reviewer, overthinking is expected of her. I always admired her willingness and ability to explain in detail does or doesn't like something so well. Even if I don't agree. This is why I continue to watch her reviews. Of course this is all her opinion, she didn't really say the one way is inherently bad, or the inclusion of honorific is inherently wrong (she brings up other things). Her feeling seems way more complicated than you let on. Personally I don't care if they use honorifics in dubs, but I understand that, yeah, it's a copout. Why spend extra thought trying to figure out how best to imply that a character is in a upperclassman in english, when just keeping "sempai" would suffice. It the same criticsm people have with some modern fansubs. I don't she is complaining that it bad, but a call for more effort on the script. It's the prinicple of it, do you want adaptive script or want everything literal? Of course, people have exception, such FLCL with JesuOtaku, but she rather dub studios adapt a script to English instead of literal translation. And that's all good. Anyway, my thoughts now, there are Japanese and English quirks, you can't change thousand+ year old languages. They developed with little interaction for centuries, so of course, there are quirks that work better or more natural sounding in each language. There is no need for these quirks (I guess), but it still doesn't mean it don't exist. I don't think it's overthinking anything. Just a observation. It's best to embrace the differences. I, personally, appreciate it more.That's why I love Funimation and newer dubs, a lot of their dubs seem to understand that. Of course, how best to translate anime is totally base on opinion as some enjoy the more literal or the theatrical performance I notice in non-Texas dubs or older dubs. XTApocalypse said: NEKOsaki said: Okay, this isn't exactly a criticism about dubs that I hate, but I find it annoying when people insist on pronouncing or spelling the name of a character the Japanese way. For example, the whole Horo or Holo thing from Spice and Wolf or Raito or Light from Death Note. I've even know some people who say Hagane no Renkinjutsush instead of Fullmetal Alchemist! Makes them sound pretentious as hell if you ask me. The site's logic is that they should default to whichever title is more popularly used overall. But the factor that isn't being considered is context. My question is more popularly used by who exactly? It annoys me when they get stupid with it. They favor the Japanese overall to a comedical level, I mean, do more people really know Ouran HIGHSCHOOL Host Club as Ouran KOUKOU Host Club? Are you FREAKING kidding me? I've never heard this used in real life or anywhere else on the internet for that matter. It's getting riduculous. My head hurts. Such insignificance, just so can they perserve that exotification of the Japanese language, even when English would do. I guess my biggest problem was the includsion of Kuragehime over the official English title Princess Jellyfish. Why does it matter? "Well the English title is boring", they say. Doesn't it mean the exact same thing? "No, the Japanese title is more exciting because its in Japanese." Such logic! |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| I tried to enter the discussion about it but my opinion was quickly dismissed because I was a member of this club. =/ I was told that the vast majority of Haruhi fans supposedly know the series by its Japanese title. I've never once heard the Japanese title used by anyone, anywhere, sub- or dub-fans. |
| Yeah, they seem to dissmissed the people who actually may not prefer the Japanese title, so of course the JPN verison is more used. I do remember the JPN title was popular before the series came to the US and was given a English verison, but since then I never heard the Japanese title used. |
coolcatJul 10, 2012 10:30 AM
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| I honestly prefer dubs for everything I can. Sometimes, it's just singular characters I'm not happy with, whether it's nitpciking (Ritsu from K-On) or just plain terrible (I mean, c'mon, anyone hear Patty's English voice in Lucky Star?) So, dub haters annoy me for all their bitching. I have one question for them: Is there any dub hater that DIDN'T get their introduction to anime THROUGH dubs? |
| Probably a lot of them in this day and age. Anime's televised heyday has unfortunately come to and end, and it's kind of hard to find anything respectable on prime time anymore. I fear the next generation may be even more sub-spoiled than our current one. =/ And I don't remember who Patty was in Lucky Star. Was she the one who looked kind of like Haruhi? |
| I've actually had the misfortune to run into the sub community a few times in person of late. In every case the person had been using the "all dubbed anime is edited" argument that became outdated in the late 90's. And when I told them this, they gave me a look as if I'd let some huge cat out of the bag and they genuinely had no idea things had changed. ... which I don't doubt all that much. I'm willing to believe that many sub supremacists went sub-only back when most English anime was edited in translation and haven't watched a single dubbed series since. |
| I wonder how much of that dub hate comes from accessibility. If it's sub, then it's usually available on the Internet at first run, but if it's licensed, then you have to wait and sometimes pay. |
| I think accessibility has more to do with pro-subdom than anti-dubdom. I've never heard anyone claim to hate dubs just because they take longer to produce. Unless you're including the indirect method of people watching subbed anime because it's available sooner, thus coming into contact with veteran subbies who constantly tell them that dubbed anime is the bane of all animation. |
XTApocalypse said: Probably a lot of them in this day and age. Anime's televised heyday has unfortunately come to and end, and it's kind of hard to find anything respectable on prime time anymore. I fear the next generation may be even more sub-spoiled than our current one. =/ And I don't remember who Patty was in Lucky Star. Was she the one who looked kind of like Haruhi? Yeah, but a lot of people (I assume) started watching anime when they were young (Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball, Tenchi Muyo) Next generation had Naruto, Bobobo, ect. Even now, a lot of people I know that are getting into anime watched FMA or Cowboy Bebop on Adult Swim, you know? Patty (Patricia Martin) was the blonde otaku girl that came from America. She dressed up as Mikuru in the cosplay cafe episode. |
| I actually thought her voice was kind of cute. Odd and unrealistic, but cute. I mentioned prime time, though; [adult swim] has become the only respectable place to find televised anime anymore, but the big difference is age. You might know people your own age (and probably a lot of teens) who are watching shows on [adult swim], but is that really their absolute first-ever exposure to anime? It doesn't offer that revelation that it did when you were 10 watching it on prime time, and it won't carry them as much as watching it at such a young age would. I'm sure most all of us have fond memories of watching anime on TV when we were younger, and that's just something that doesn't happen anymore outside of the marketable series like Pokemon and Bakugan. My point was, as accessibility dwindles, fewer people's first exposure is likely to be to dubbed anime; and those who do qualify will be exposed to the afforementioned marketable series, making them all the more likely to make generalizations about dubbed anime as a whole. |
| I would think Cartoon Network and those big time Miyazaki movies have the most influence on first time anime watching, but friends and family will recommend titles to get the whole habit going, and it's surfing the Internet and using broadband services from there on. |
JTurner said: dark2ganny said: I honestly prefer dubs for everything I can. Sometimes, it's just singular characters I'm not happy with, whether it's nitpciking (Ritsu from K-On) or just plain terrible (I mean, c'mon, anyone hear Patty's English voice in Lucky Star?) So, dub haters annoy me for all their bitching. I have one question for them: Is there any dub hater that DIDN'T get their introduction to anime THROUGH dubs? Hard to say. But yeah, I feel that we dub fans are starting to become a minority; often pushed around by sub-favoring fans who look down upon us for having different tastes... at least on the internet. In real life, though, not so much. It depends on where you're looking. I don't think dub fans are becoming the minority per se. Because it seem people still purchase anime with dub as opposed to sub-only. Most likely because people who prefer dubs are still the everyman and are able to get a larger audience. Personally I think the dub-hate to dub-love seem to shift depending on where I am or why forum I'm on. Websites that have mostly subbed anime (especially fansubbing site) or website with more of "Wapanese-feel" or "Japan focused" are more anti-dub I noticed. While anime sites that have mostly dubbed anime or have more "Anglophone industry focused" seems to be more neutural or pro-dub. Though this could be considered obvious. Yeah, in real life, people are waaay more level-headed and less radical than they seem on the internet. They tend to be more pro-sub, than anti-dub, which I can accpet. Though there is always at least one douchebag that has to parrot what he or she heard on internet as a cheap, pathetic attempt to be "cool" in the eyes of their peers. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
XTApocalypse said: I think accessibility has more to do with pro-subdom than anti-dubdom. I've never heard anyone claim to hate dubs just because they take longer to produce. Unless you're including the indirect method of people watching subbed anime because it's available sooner, thus coming into contact with veteran subbies who constantly tell them that dubbed anime is the bane of all animation. I was thinking because of the lack of accessibility there might be a sour grapes effect, and it tends to point at the companies that claim the titles. It's a weak argument especially when the same companies are making the episodes accessible on broadband. |
Angus said: I would think Cartoon Network and those big time Miyazaki movies have the most influence on first time anime watching, but friends and family will recommend titles to get the whole habit going, and it's surfing the Internet and using broadband services from there on. I've never heard of anyone becoming an anime fan through friends or family; the only cases I've heard about or seen firsthand have all been people seeing anime on TV when they were kids. But that kind of suggests my point - if people are getting their first exposure from word of mouth rather than from a widespread medium like television, then the voice of the people will have a stronger effect, and I think too many of these people (remember, we're talking about people who already watch anime - which brings me back to the notion of people who stopped watching dubbed anime back in the day when it actually was edited) have sub-premacist voices. Maybe we're all talking from different experiences, though. The vast majority of the anime audience as I see it is dumb high school kids who listen to what their friends listen to just because they listen to it, play what their friends play, and watch what their friends watch. And if their friends are late-teens anime fans who frequent the internet, there's a large chance that they're anti-dub. Yes, I just coined the word sub-premacist. Use it forever. |
| I'll have to check my nephews and their peers and see how they got into it. Some of them aren't really social though, so that leads me to believe they watched it from TV offerings first or manga sections at the library/bookstore and then searched the Internet until they find others just like them and follow what they are watching. As for myself, it's mainly from friends and family. |
| What heavenly place do you live where libraries and bookstores have manga sections? Ours don't have manga at all, not even a handful of really popular ones. |
| Oh, it's in Northern Calfornia. They used to stock a ton of Ranma 1/2 and Inuyasha. Now it's mostly those popular ones like Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, though they did stock Excel Saga and Initial D some time ago. That was pretty awesome. Another nearly library system had a decent anime selection; had all the Rurouni Kenshins. |
| The library in my hometown and college town has a pretty good selection of manga, which even though I live here still surprises the heck out of me. Maybe because the library at my hometown host a anime club that they have variety outside the typical shounen. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| Some guy I know told me I lived in a hick town, and gosh darn it, I'm starting to believe him. We don't even have a friggin' Wal-Mart. The entire town, bar two places, shuts down at 10. And we have 5 gas stations. =/ |
| I hate it when people say Goku's voice in Japanese is better than in English. Regardless of which dub you prefer, either is better because at least he doesn't sound like a girl in them unlike the Japanese version. They can shove their criticisms of dubs up their arses. |
| What do you mean by "either is better?" I completely agree with you about the DBZ dub, though. Goku's Japanese voice just... kills everything. =/ |
| I'm assuming you mean adult Goku and comparing Ocean/Bluewater dubs and Funimation's dubs? |
| Either COULD be better but it doesn't matter. Dubs or subs. |
 |
| What I mean is that either FUNimation or Ocean Group English dub is better than the Japanese regardless of whichever you prefer because at least both English dubs have Adult Goku sounding like a man instead of a girl. |
| I was referring to Japanese adult Goku vs. any dubbed adult Goku, as MadHi expressed. |
| I know what you were talking about lol. I understand it completely because it's what everyone talks about. I personally see no issue with Japanese Goku, but i still prefer FUNimation Goku to any Goku. (definitely more than spanish Goku) |
|
| Another stupid criticism is regarding Naruto's English dub. BLAAAAAAAH!! HE SOUNDS ANNOYING!! - He sounds annoying in every language he's been dubbed over in because HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE ANNOYING! Believe it! |
| Pretty much. He sounds annoying in English, and he sounds annoying in Japanese. And while I haven't seen any Spanish dub, I can bet that if there was one, he's no Valentino. |
| I hate the fact that some people were claiming "Japanese voice actors are the greatest voice actors ever", even though some of them have nearly as much bad acting, or poorly chosen VAs, as their English counterparts in some anime or cartoons. I understand that it is subjective, but it seems that some people were biased that they're in favor in Japanese by a landslide. I will admit that I love Japanese voice acting in general, but like CoolCat said, neither Japanese or American is inherently superior or inferior. Good and bad voice acting comes from both languages. |
DawnHibikiJul 23, 2012 7:44 PM
| "You don't have to believe in yourself, because I believe in you." - Drax the Destroyer https://dawnhibiki.carrd.co/ Mirishita ID: L3N93SKX Discord: DawnHibiki #6454 |
| If it's subbed, you're getting someone's translation. If it's dubbed, you're getting someone's translation. Unless you speak the original language and watch it in raw format, you're getting someone's translation. There's absolutely nothing that makes one "closer to the original" than the other. They're both translated and some amount of meaning is lost in both cases. |
| Multitasking works great when you're having to fold and put away laundry while TV is playing in the background. ;) As for translations, given that a big chunk of the shows are based on manga, you're also getting someone's adaptation of their comic. Might as well bash all those superhero movies that came out this year for attempting the same thing. There is something enjoyable about authenticity when reading the original story with a close to literal translation, but that kind of exercise is more applicable to historical documents and literature rather than anime. It's difficult to misinterpret fanservice insertions. |
| You're really going to need to spend a bit more time on that typography of yours if you want to be taken seriously. =/ Pokemon and Sailor Moon are pretty much the two worst possible examples of dubs you could possibly use. They're two of the very, VERY limited handful of anime out there today which were released with a cut/edited dub and never released in English uncut. Dragon Ball Z was once one of those cases, but has since been released uncut. And writing off Detective Conan/Case Closed just because the name was changed and for absolutely no reason beyond that is just asinine. |
| Case Closed is one of those dubs where I'm willing to forgive Funi's silly Americanization attempts for the sake of their mystery of the week. But wasn't his detective name the same as in the Japanese? Why would that be a big issue? It's funny though: I've been reading Sherlock Holmes this month and of course the original is different from the BBC show and the movies, but doesn't mean I can't enjoy the adaptations. |
| Shin Chan was a "gag dub" - another very rare case where they replaced the Japanese pop culture references with Western ones for the dub. Some like it better that way, some don't. If all you're going to do is selectively bash on the worst dubs out there as if they somehow represent all dubs, though, why are you in this club? |
Enjolras1830 said: Angus said: Case Closed is one of those dubs where I'm willing to forgive Funi's silly Americanization attempts for the sake of their mystery of the week. But wasn't his detective name the same as in the Japanese? Why would that be a big issue? It's funny though: I've been reading Sherlock Holmes this month and of course the original is different from the BBC show and the movies, but doesn't mean I can't enjoy the adaptations. his names Conan Edogawa in Japanese hence the name detective conan It's Conan Edogawa in the English version too (and in the manga). So um, what's the problem? |
Enjolras1830 said: i can prise a good dub when i see were evry tthing matches from Muisc tp Cast Quilty to Scriptural Fidelity the last being most Important[ also use of proper VA's is good to thats why i dislike Ghibil dubs ] "Matches?" As in, is identical to the Japanese version? This is a topic that's been discussed many, many, many times over--copying the Japanese version as closely as possible doesn't necessarily make a good dub, nor are good dubs required to meticulously copy the Japanese version. A dub in any language should be judged on its own merit. What makes Japanese dubs so inherently perfect in every way that they should be the end-all result that all other language dubs must strive to be like? Japanese voice-overs are done just the same as they are anywhere else in the world: the director tries to match voices to characters to the best of his or her ability. Sometimes they fit, sometimes they don't. It's not perfect just for being in Japanese. |
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