What is your opinion on loli?
I can't stand it.
27.6%
91
Meh, don't care.
13.9%
46
I love loli.
33.9%
112
Some is good, some is gross.
24.5%
81
330 votes
| I gave up reading this after reading the first page, so I moved on to the last page and read the last page (6) instead. =P And so far on this page jupiterjazz has said everything I wanted to say. I agree with him when he said the word 'loli' has long been associated with something negative, in this case pedophelia. I know in this forum some people have define loli in a positive term, but this is only a minority view. I have been in many forums and websites in the past where what was shown as loli definitely does not celebrate and protect the innocence of children, but the sexualization of little girls and boys. It is obvious that the majority mangakas and anime creators also have similar view about loli because there are an abundant of anime and mangas that put young girls and boys in compromising situations to accentuate their sexual appeals. Not to mention, for someone who know little about loli s/he can search the net and will come to conclusion that loli isn't just some innocence thing. I'm not saying everyone who like lolis are pedophiles, and I certainly don't believe that. However, I believe if people truly define lolis in an innocence term then the pictures they posted and have of lolis shouldn't contradict their beliefs because action do speak louder than words. =) |
| Lets forget the whole Godwin's Law. It's not a law. It's just something used to regulate Usenet because Usenet = kingdom of flaming. I used the swastika in a very intelligent, and conservative manner, and if you want to discredit my statement then do it in a manner much more conformed to the spirit of this thread. The word lolita has a very perverse history, and it should not be used in a positive light among any community no matter how open-minded you are, and if you truly loved children then you wouldn't be using such a word that disparages the very idealism of 'child-like innocence.' It symbolizes rape, molestation, and the very idea of young children being forced into sexual confrontations so they can be exploited for money by people in foreign countries, over the internet, who as you have mentioned have no laws against such things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm ^ I am not a hell-bent child hater. Nor am I some single-minded anti-loli anime hater. It's just not my cup of coffee. I have already said I don't care what you get your jollies from, and if animated child pornography is your thing then go for it, but your morality comes into serious question. That is why I am doing this. I am trying to figure out if the very club you run is a facade. No one who loves children would justify the stuff you have. I do not beleive you are a pedophile, but maybe just stubborn. I think you can see my point as well as a lot of the people who have kept up with this thread. The content is very ludicrous, and while it is not illegal because it is anime; it would be if those where real girls put in compromising positions, and if it where so and you where so tried by a jury there would be a very high probability of conviction. I will not back off of the club as I am part of the anime community, this community, and do not want such an idea as chilld-like innocence to be represented in such a way. How about it? Now as to all the references to 4chan, and 7chan I say so what? Can someone who steals a car claim to be better then someone who robs a bank. I don't think so. As to why I am not going against anyone else who supports loli; well the reason is quite simple. I don't care if they are true to the idealism behind the term. Then enjoy that genre of anime. Overall no one besides you has defended such tasteless pictures with the ferocity, and attempted simplicity as you. I am not trying to insult you, but seriously take a look at the content in question, and then go re-read the manner of which you have defended it in. Then think about one of your nieces, cousins, children, or whatever put into such a situation. Personally I would kill someone who did such a thing to a blood-relative of mine. Please, if the words of your mission statement ring true then just remove such said pictures. I mean how hard can it be for you to find appropriate content to replace them? Hell if you remove them I'll join the club, become your friend, and upload some clean pictures for you. If you remove the part of the mission statement claiming it is for fans of child-like innocence then I will stop pestering you about it, or banning might have the same affect. =P Look I am sorry that I am focusing my attack on your club, and your views about the content in general, but this is what my morals have led me to. It's not a question of winning or losing, but rather representation of the believes you laid down for SOL, and it's members. |
jupiterjazzJun 6, 2007 9:49 AM
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Cheesebaron said: For those with kids, just look at them sometimes! If you post a picture of your kid on a blog in a body stocking, people do not say "ew ew nekkid kids!!!!" What do you consider a "body stocking?" My children are right around "loli" age... they're 14... but even when they were younger, I would have NEVER EVER posted pictures of my children showing their panties or bras or undergarments of any nature. This is the point I am trying to make. I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with normal pictures of young anime characters being just that... young anime characters. I look at it like this... "Would I post a picture of MY CHILD in that pose or in that outfit?" There are just far too many contradictions among "loli" fans about what is acceptable and what is not. It was never my intention to berate the SOL, or to come down on it. My posts were simply to point out the contradictions. As far as loli themselves, yes, the term has a very negative connotation... at least in my eyes. I love young, cute, child-like characters; when they are portrayed as child-like and innocent (again, I reference Ellis and Kisa). When these characters start to be portrayed as anything more "adult-like" it turns me off to them... and pedophilia is the first thing that comes to mind (this includes both loli and shota characters.) |
jupiterjazz said: kei-clone said: jupiterjazz: Godwin's Law aside, thank you, now that you have resorted to insults and flaming I'm no longer compelled to take your argument seriously . As if you even had a reason to invoke Godwin's law anyways. It only counts when comparing someone to nazis as an insult or a flame, which I never did. "Anyways I am done here I didn't want to get involved in it this much anyways." You can only invoke the way you did on Usenet which doesn't even count as a place to have a debate in, because it's Usenet. Besides I was I completely joking, as you where or at least what I took to be a joke. What I did do is a very realistic comparison on the word lolita, which since it's conception has meant pedophilia, to something as bad as a swastika which sybolizes mass genocide of the jewish community. In no way was it flaming, and in no way was any part of my post flaming. kei-clone said: Most of your argument doesn't make any sense anyway. You're basically going "nuh-uh, you guys are definitely pedophiles!" to me and you don't back it up with evidence nor logic, all you say is "I bet you you guys do!". You think you know us all, and then you go on ahead to call us all elitists? http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?action=view&t=pic&id=2&pid=950 http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?action=view&t=pic&id=2&pid=992 http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?action=view&t=pic&id=2&pid=1262 http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?action=view&t=pic&id=2&pid=1268 http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?action=view&t=pic&id=2&pid=1269 http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?action=view&t=pic&id=2&pid=1406 There is my evidence. If those where pictures of real girls it would be enough to convict you of child pornography in a court of law. Yet you have avidly defended them all instead of removing them which is well within your power no matter who posted them up. Which is the only reason I am even posting here, and the reason I called you elitists which is not a far stretch from the way you are acting about it. Not because I care if people really like 'loli'; hell I don't even care if you like them because they are sexually suggestive. If that is the case though stop being so hypocritical, and remove this 'This DOES NOT mean we're pedophiles (a horribly common misconception). It is a sad thing in today's society that loving "children" is automatically linked to pedophilia...but instead in this club we simply appreciate the beauty of childhood innocence, kinda like Catcher in the Rye' from your club information. Such pictures insinuate exactly the opposite of this statement. Now I know you can't be ignorant enough to actually believe these pictures are 'innocent', and before you prove me wrong in that mannerism it can be easily concluded that they are sexually suggestive because the little girls are: 1. Portraying the fact that they are being looked at. 2. Blushing because of this, which does indeed make it sexually suggestive, or 3. In the case of the 'bible' and the first picture they are plain out being slutty. If you seriously believe in child like innocence then I beseech you to remove said pictures, and make a guideline for posting them in your fanclub, and I also recomend the whole loli community find a name other then loli, which for over 100 years has insinuated 'pedophilism' and it will continue to do so. Especially with the kind of support it's getting right now. Edit: To the response about me thinking children are annoying, which no matter who you are they will get on your nerves. Just because I think they can be so annoying does not mean I hate children, and I definitely know that NO loli character portrays what a child acts like, and they definitely don't portray children around the age of 13 or so which is a pretty common loli age I hear being tossed about. like i said yeaterday, the only picture in this so called "evidence" is the book, and well if you dont get the joke then well you dont have a sence of humor. lots of these pictures you people are complaining about are really nothing more than plays on perspective. shesh, good greif. "me thinks he protests to much" a person has to choose if he sees sexuallity in a picture. referance the paula poundstone trial if you dont believe me. she had pictures of her neices and nefews bouncing around playing on her bed, oh my gosh, in their underware!! some idiot, saw these photos and reported her. she was arrested and aquited becouse the judge saw what the photos really were: just pictures of kids playing |
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Cloudrayne said: she had pictures of her neices and nefews bouncing around playing on her bed, oh my gosh, in their underware!! some idiot, saw these photos and reported her. she was arrested and aquited becouse the judge saw what the photos really were: just pictures of kids playing But she didn't post pictures of her kids in their underwear on the internet, did she? They were her pictures in her home. I have pictures of my girls as toddlers in their skivvies and diapers and I have naked baby pictures... they don't get posted on the internet, though =/ |
| thats just semantics, posting in a club, is no different than shareing with friends and family members and just becouse the girls in the drawings are not "our children" does not mean we cant appreciate the beauty |
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Cloudrayne said: like i said yeaterday, the only picture in this so called "evidence" is the book, and well if you dont get the joke then well you dont have a sence of humor. lots of these pictures you people are complaining about are really nothing more than plays on perspective. shesh, good greif. "me thinks he protests to much" a person has to choose if he sees sexuallity in a picture. referance the paula poundstone trial if you dont believe me. she had pictures of her neices and nefews bouncing around playing on her bed, oh my gosh, in their underware!! some idiot, saw these photos and reported her. she was arrested and aquited becouse the judge saw what the photos really were: just pictures of kids playing Oh? Plays on perspective you say? There is no question about the pictures I resourced. They where definitely sexual in nature. The biggest part being that the girls where blushing as they knew someone was looking at them in the wrong way. Which honestly little 5 yr olds would have no clue about. Why do they know about it? Not so innocent are they? Even if you don't believe it; it is definitely what the artist who drew them had in mind. Open your eyes kiddo. Plus Chelle gives discredits your resource on the trial completely. They weren't posted on the internet, and they where of her own kids and family members. If you had pictures like that of someone else's kids you'd be finding yourself with a one way ticket to the slammer. Then when you got out you would be forced to go to every house within a few miles radius, and inform everyone you are a pedophile. |
jupiterjazzJun 6, 2007 11:12 AM
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Cloudrayne said: thats just semantics, posting in a club, is no different than shareing with friends and family members and just becouse the girls in the drawings are not "our children" does not mean we cant appreciate the beauty You are telling me that you would go as far as to give a friend nudies of your children. That's disgusting. No matter how close of friends you are with someone you can't be absolutely sure about them. Same can go for family. This is why the perp in child abduction cases is usally a friend or family member. Again I say open your eyes to what really happens in the real world. |
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jupiterjazz said: Oh? Plays on perspective you say? There is no question about the pictures I resourced. They where definitely sexual in nature. The biggest part being that the girls where blushing as they knew someone was looking at them in the wrong way. Which honestly little 5 yr olds would have no clue about. Why do they know about it? Not so innocent are they? Just because they're blushing doesnt mean its anything sexual. It wouldnt matter how someone looked at them they would be embarrassed because they're shy and thats what makes them cute. :D lolis ftw~ |
| I want this discussion to die already but i still want to same some things. First of all, i dont know much history on the term lolis and i dont care. I'll agree that it comes with a negative connotation, however,I believe in the context of anime it really doesnt mean much except for little girls, for the most part. Like whoever said last page, its just a term. Now, what i want to get at is that i dont want anyone to see me as some pedo or someone who is tasteless because of some pictures someone posted. I love lolis cause they make great characters like i said earlier, Imouto cause she's just plain adorable, Shana cause she a sword-wielding badass, or Momo cause of the awesome things she's done in the show. So before calling tasteless, watch a show like Manabi Straight cause its surpisingly good though you (jupiter) seem to be more of an action oriented watcher. Aw shit, my ten minutes are up, gotta go to class, got some more stuff to say later. |
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| I am sorry, but the innocence form is the connotation. Besides the word literally means sorrows or sad. The innocence form did not even appear until at least a good 90 years of the word defining pedophiles. Even if you say the context of anime you can't deny the fact that more often then not lolitas appear in a more pornographic nature even in animation. Seriously, what is the problem with letting such a dark abhorrent word go? Because you like how easily it can be abbreviated into such a cute little four letter word? That's completely ignorant if that is the case, and so far none from the loli community have even given a reason as to why you continue to use the word. Even after you found out what it meant. Like I said though I have already argued this point with other loli lovers. None of them has -ever- been able to gain even an inch on the debate. They all just come back with similar answers that I get here yet refuse to change anything. Seriously do you guys automatically harbor some personal vendetta against anyone who questions such obvious relations between lolita anime and child pornography? Is your community just a bunch of stubborn block-heads? Maybe my third conclusion is correct, and you guys just like to put up a facade of innocence to protect yourselves. I knew this would happen here as well. I never said lolis where all tasteless. In fact I know there are some that are completely devout of graphical sexual innuendo. That's great, and a step forward for your cause, but ecchi with little five year olds is not. No matter what you say hentai, and ecchi are sexually related, and slapping a five year old into the mix does not suddenly make it a cute sexual relation. itainteazy said: Just because they're blushing doesnt mean its anything sexual. It wouldnt matter how someone looked at them they would be embarrassed because they're shy and thats what makes them cute. :D lolis ftw~ Yes, wake me up for a debate after you step into the real world. If all you loli lovers will excuse me I need to beat my wife because she looks sooo cute when she is cowering all defenseless in a corner. While I am at it I think I'll stuff some cats into some jars and submit the pictures to banzaikitty.com if it still exists. Cats look so cute stuffed into jars even if they can't ever get out of them. |
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| i loled jupiterjazz Faust721 said: Now, what i want to get at is that i dont want anyone to see me as some pedo or someone who is tasteless because of some pictures someone posted. I love lolis cause they make great characters like i said earlier, Imouto cause she's just plain adorable, Shana cause she a sword-wielding badass, or Momo cause of the awesome things she's done in the show. So before calling tasteless, watch a show like Manabi Straight cause its surpisingly good though you (jupiter) seem to be more of an action oriented watcher. Now this part I'm fine with, I can't say I think the same way about all of it but it's fine. But the expression "loli" and certain of those images is what I'm not fine with. If it's only the name I'll hardly care although it might "bother" me. |
| At least someone got the joke. I doubt it will taken like that when the opponents take their counter-measures. =P Anyways this is becoming fun for me. I haven't gotten serious over a debate for a long time. When I was delving into politics about four or five years ago.. Maybe I should go back to it. |
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| I can no longer post replies that take up an entire page because I have an exam tomorrow and I have to study for the next 24 hrs or so. I'll continue this debate in full power after then. Right now I'm not going to directly reply to anyone but instead make some general cases. I'll summarize right now what we currently agree on and disagree on: most of us are in agreement that exploitation of children is a bad thing. most of us find lolicon porn in bad taste. Most of us also seem to agree that lolis when portrayed in a truly innocent manner is perfectly fine. Feel free to correct my above points if i'm in error. Now apparently the only points left I can see remaining are the standing of the SOL Brigade, which I'll deal with later if you guys still don't get it, and the "definition" of the word lolis. At this point it seems the major topic of disagreement is the definition. For this I'll refer to BlueYoshi's post, which I feel brought up very good points but everyone seemed to have missed/ignored it. BlueYoshi said: Hmm...this reminds me of an arguement i stopped that involved the term, "furry". Now, i only read the first page, so sorry if this post comes out wrong. But the term "loli" is only a term. Take for example "furry". Recently, someone on the Red vs Blue website was spreading hate about furries. Calling them Furfags, posting horrible pictures, etc. Now, furry, emo, loli, they are all terms simply, turned into a culture. Some people represent this in some pretty crazy and adult ways. Wikipedia also had some weird ways of explaining it. Not all furrys like to do adult things with animals. The thing that might happen (and might have already happened in pages 2-4) is a full blown arguement about hating lolis. And whatever the case, that is wrong. Spreading hate about anything is wrong. Lolis and furrys are a great example. The people here on MAL are fans of lolis, but they are definitely not thinking about, sexing up 8 year old girls. It's easy to tease, insult and even spread hate about loli and furry fans, when they could just be regular people, who just have different interests. As for that guy who was spreading hate about the furries, all i did was post a journal on RvB to the guy, warning him about what he was doing and he stopped. Hell, i'm not even a Loli or Furry fan. Sure, Yuki from THMS is kickass, but that's about it. I don't watch too much anime with lolis in it. I probably lost track. Sorry, but this is just my opinion. That damn fine line between normal and sex these days...*sighs* Very good points there. Now I'm not sure why there's still the impression out there that "our" definition of lolis is "in the minority." Believe it or not, this definition that does not include sexual connotation is already in widespread use in the anime community. I know no one will believe me if I say that so I'm going to post evidence this time. 1) Already mentioned but worth bringing up again is the WinD fansub meme "killer lolis" used in reference to Higurashi. Certainly no sexual references there. 2) The world's strongest loli - definitely nothing submissive or sexual about this IRL loli...unless ur into BSDM or something but that's besides the point 3) http://extrange.animeblogger.net/2007/04/06/why-are-lolis-moe/ Actually defines lolis here, and separates the European definition from the anime definition. He says all lolis are moe, but be careful because that's merely this blogger's tastes, it is not a defining characteristic. 4) http://koufukuron.com/osu/?p=303#comment-901 This comment here makes a clear distinction between "loli" and "lolicon", the latter probably being the very thing you anti-lolis have been detesting all along but generalized to hate all lolis. The last two links were found from a simple Google search on "lolis". As you can see, while these links can't prove that this definition is in the majority, it shows that a very significant population accepts this definition even if it IS in the minority (which I believe it is not). So even if you post some links after this showing the term being used in the other way, it's irrelevant because a significant percent of us still accept the non-sexual definition as the definition. This is a fact that everyone must accept. It has been adopted into our language and you can't really fight it. Sure, perhaps the first 90 years of loli the term did not mean what it means now, but it is the present that is relevant. Similar situation is for the term "trolls" and "trojans". For over 1000 years those terms meant something very different than what they do now. But placed in the context of the internet, the meaning changes completely, even more so than "lolis." Welcome to the internet, where information exchange changes things faster than ever before, allowing such hyper-evolution of terms such as these. As you can see, there's really no reason for us to stop using this term at this point. If this debate occurred 10, maybe even 5 years ago perhaps your impression of the term "lolis" may be more relevant, but the present is now. Everyone simply needs to accept the meaning of this term, and really understand what supporters of loli are actually attracted to. Damn, I didn't mean to make that so long. Okay I'm done for a while now. The rest of you guys can jump in for me. |
kei-cloneJun 6, 2007 5:04 PM
| I see. See, at first I never directly responded to Jupiterjazz because I thought it was covered well by Kei. I just spend quite some time catching up on this stupid thread, and I curse myself at how long that took, because I could have watched anime. It was all so repetitive.. To cut my response short, I will make it more point form. -Though lolita has been a term to describe pedophiles for the longest time, that hardly means anything. First of all, I think you have not heard of Pederasty which was common in ancient Greece, as well as many other areas generally around that time. Not that I agree with it, but it was seen as not something bad. But seriously, if they did used to have men and younger boys all the time, does that make it okay? Your argument that "well because people have been using lolita to mean sexual attraction to underage women for 90 years, it means that it still has that same negative connotation now". However, I do not see how makes any goddamn difference? I really enjoy history, and so it's fairly obvious to me that things change. Hell, language is the most flexible thing there is in all of history. If you sent a Japanese teen back to the start of the 20th century, they would probably use a lot of words people then would not understand. It's the same for any language. Why do you think a lot of younger kids, and even most adults have trouble understanding Shakespeare? "Mine eyes are tainted by thy face" (my awesome insult). If you said "mine" instead of my, you'd be laughed at. Oh frack, now I've failed the point form thing. And I am okay with those pictures too, by the way. Instead of focusing your effort on trying to stop drawing of children that are slightly "bad" as you say, why don't you start a fundraiser for REAL kids who are suffering. There are millions upon millions. How about, since you seem to be so obsessed over sexually abused children, you start up fund to help kids who have ACTUALLY been sexually abused. EDIT: Kei beat me to the post *cries*, ahahha. And yes, Blueyoshi made an excellent post, as have many people here. *sigh* Oh and, on another note, I forgot to post on this, I would not really post naked pictures of my children on the internet, because I would not post ANY pictures of my children on the internet. I know better, and I am sorry that some people who may be loli lovers disagree that posting pictures of your own family (mainly children) on the internet is wrong. Especially since as children, they would not really know what you were doing. So on that point, I have to agree with furuba, for a slightly different reason. Then again, if my friend came over and wanted to see pictures of my children, male or female, I would show them all, even naked ones. I mean, they pass probably 5, no more naked pictures would be taken. However, if my like 9 year old had like hm, her underwear showing, I would be fine with showing my friends.... I don't see why not. If I suspected that my friend would be turned on, why the hell would I be their friend? |
SY_IS_DEAD_IRLJun 6, 2007 5:11 PM
| Uhm, a trojan is still basically the same thing just a different context, a troll is valid although u might scan for similarities =P Thing is it's different with one word being a metaphor for something else, and using a sexually and negatively charged word for something similar yet innocent. This easily creates misunderstandings and prejudice. Personally I don't care too much about the name as long as you stay distant from lolita pictures tbh, but imo it's a bitt odd. |
selective_yellow said: And I am okay with those pictures too, by the way. Instead of focusing your effort on trying to stop drawing of children that are slightly "bad" as you say, why don't you start a fundraiser for REAL kids who are suffering. There are millions upon millions. How about, since you seem to be so obsessed over sexually abused children, you start up fund to help kids who have ACTUALLY been sexually abused. Thats a stupid thing to say and you know it |
jupiterjazz said: Seriously, what is the problem with letting such a dark abhorrent word go? Because you like how easily it can be abbreviated into such a cute little four letter word? That's completely ignorant if that is the case, and so far none from the loli community have even given a reason as to why you continue to use the word. Even after you found out what it meant. Why must i let it go? You say its such a dark word and i'm sure there are history that show it but I have never viewed it like that. I interpreted loli from lolicon. A complex for little girls. So minus the complex we would just have little girls. Even with all the "dark" history I have always viewed loli as little girl so why must I change the way I see it just because you see it differently. I see loli as harmless so i will keep using it. At least its better than saying something like little girls ftw~ cause that just sound creepy. |
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| I regret stepping into this mine field, but I have to have my thoughts known. Although I do enjoy some of the same anime that the SOL do, I do so for the story, action, comedy, etc. I find myself wishing some of the characters where older so I could mentally connect with them more... really hard to do when your staring at a loli. Loli has always and will always mean to me the 'bad' meaning. That's the way I was brought up. As a nod to Kei-clone, I agree that cute comes into play but when I watch anime and I find a character I like I don't want to feel weird. I don't want to be watching some kid flashing their underwear. I'd rather watch someone I'd have a chance at without being hauled off to jail. Seriously, I'd rather gaze upon some girls that have definition and are damn near at or beyond adulthood. Loli characters really put me off about anime... If I really like the show, how the hell will I look when I put an image of it as my wallpaper on my laptop at work? like a you know what =P |
"...Only fools stand up and really lay down their arms. No, not me, not when death lasts forever." |
Aokaado said: selective_yellow said: And I am okay with those pictures too, by the way. Instead of focusing your effort on trying to stop drawing of children that are slightly "bad" as you say, why don't you start a fundraiser for REAL kids who are suffering. There are millions upon millions. How about, since you seem to be so obsessed over sexually abused children, you start up fund to help kids who have ACTUALLY been sexually abused. Thats a stupid thing to say and you know it No it's not, in the context of this discussion. This entire discussion has stupidity, and I was making a point that this is seriously becomming a waste of time. Oh well, if you think it's stupid, then I can't really change that. I also do not really want to change anyone into a loli lover either. And as I feel this has become a bit stupid, I don't really think I will be making any lengthy posts. Just, Arixx, I understand your position. I don't feel particularly awkward, but if you do, then that's alright (not that I am trying to give you "permission", which it almost sounds like. Because I am not!! ahah). Sometimes lolis can be bad and stupid, espcially in abundance. Though, that can be said for most things. It would be a bit weird to have a wallpaper with a loli on it if it was your work computer, ahaahaha. Especialy if you worked in some high end buisness, because I wouldn't expect anyone there to really know much about it, hhaah. |
Aokaado said: selective_yellow said: And I am okay with those pictures too, by the way. Instead of focusing your effort on trying to stop drawing of children that are slightly "bad" as you say, why don't you start a fundraiser for REAL kids who are suffering. There are millions upon millions. How about, since you seem to be so obsessed over sexually abused children, you start up fund to help kids who have ACTUALLY been sexually abused. Thats a stupid thing to say and you know it Agree. It is also such a cheap way to not addressing the argument raised and instead shift the responsibility to the other side. And actually, a good start to help children from becoming victims of sexual abuse is to stop endorsing and validating such images that jupiter brought up as "okay" or "normal" images of children. |
sorairo said: Aokaado said: selective_yellow said: And I am okay with those pictures too, by the way. Instead of focusing your effort on trying to stop drawing of children that are slightly "bad" as you say, why don't you start a fundraiser for REAL kids who are suffering. There are millions upon millions. How about, since you seem to be so obsessed over sexually abused children, you start up fund to help kids who have ACTUALLY been sexually abused. Thats a stupid thing to say and you know it Agree. It is also such a cheap way to not addressing the argument raised and instead shift the responsibility to the other side. And actually, a good start to help children from becoming victims of sexual abuse is to stop endorsing and validating such images that jupiter brought up as "okay" or "normal" images of children. Did anyone else read the rest of my post? I did discuss the topic.......... I've made several posts infact. EDIT: Oh and before I go study, um.. Seriously, you think you can rid to world of pedofiles by posting here? Even the best argument one could ever come up with wouldn't change their mind. It's a mental illness... That was cheap and you know it, =P |
selective_yellow said: Aokaado said: selective_yellow said: And I am okay with those pictures too, by the way. Instead of focusing your effort on trying to stop drawing of children that are slightly "bad" as you say, why don't you start a fundraiser for REAL kids who are suffering. There are millions upon millions. How about, since you seem to be so obsessed over sexually abused children, you start up fund to help kids who have ACTUALLY been sexually abused. Thats a stupid thing to say and you know it No it's not, in the context of this discussion. This entire discussion has stupidity, and I was making a point that this is seriously becomming a waste of time. Oh well, if you think it's stupid, then I can't really change that. I also do not really want to change anyone into a loli lover either. And as I feel this has become a bit stupid, I don't really think I will be making any lengthy posts. Just, Arixx, I understand your position. I don't feel particularly awkward, but if you do, then that's alright (not that I am trying to give you "permission", which it almost sounds like. Because I am not!! ahah). Sometimes lolis can be bad and stupid, espcially in abundance. Though, that can be said for most things. It would be a bit weird to have a wallpaper with a loli on it if it was your work computer, ahaahaha. Especialy if you worked in some high end buisness, because I wouldn't expect anyone there to really know much about it, hhaah. I wasn't looking for permission. That's the way people see it in my part of the world. Why would I want to have a poster, wallpaper or other of a child in suggestive attire? I might be a fan of the anime, but I would rather have a character I could be proud to display, like Revy or Kaname, Mao or other mature, strong characters. |
| "...Only fools stand up and really lay down their arms. No, not me, not when death lasts forever." |
selective_yellow said: Did anyone else read the rest of my post? I did discuss the topic.......... I've made several posts infact. EDIT: Oh and before I go study, um.. Seriously, you think you can rid to world of pedofiles by posting here? Even the best argument one could ever come up with wouldn't change their mind. It's a mental illness... That was cheap and you know it, =P Yes I did read it, but it was only addressed the word loli and its meaning, which I don't care to get into either. It never directly address the main point that jupiter have brought up that is the huge discrepancy between your definition of loli and the pictures that you or others have posted/approved of lolis. I say good for you if you only like lolis because you love the childlike innocence of the anime characters, but is your love for lolis is just simple as you said or not when the pictures that you approved for lolis doesn't coincide with your definition. I don't see why people keeps finding reasons and excuses to validate such pictures that jupiter brought up as "okay" or "normal" images of children when many people wouldn't 1) Place their children in such compromising position 2) Wouldn't want others to view pictures of their children like that and 3) Wouldn't proudly display them for other people to see in real life. |
sorairoJun 6, 2007 6:37 PM
| http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lolita&x=0&y=0 http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lolita http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861699415 Not enough for you? Ohhh of course it isn't my mistake. http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m102/p0tsimages/lolita.jpg Damn, lets see that's 570k more hits for lolita hentai then lolita anime. Go figure. Not enough for you? Ohh of course it isn't my mistake. That is why I excluded anime from the third search. Wow 22,400,000 references to pedophile content. Ok, I'll be fair. We can assume that some of those 1,560,00 hits for anime came up in there, so I'll give all of them to you. Lets see math wasn't always my strong point but here goes. 22,400,000 - 1,560,000 = 20,840,000 Damn lets see that comes to 13 to 1 pedophile representation to anime. Not to mention the very fact that there is noo doubt a good number of those hits for lolita anime turned up pornographic material, but hey we won't count it I'm feeling generous today. Kei, a mature anime character with a tail attached providing fanservice is completely different that a little five year old girl doing so, and if we are just talking about the innocent aspect of both cultures well then. That is fine. I have no problem with innocent loli. Which you guys are too blind to see that I have said that over and over. My problem is the content you pass off as innocent is not. Pictures of five year old girls with camel toes blushing because someone is looking at their no nos is not innocent in any way. Which I still said I don't even care if you enjoy such material, but do not think you can feed me that pile of 'innocent' shit if you continue endorse such pictures. So what is the "goddamn difference" you ask? Well first of all you list two very very dead references to support your argument. Both Shakespeare and ancient Greece died before anyone here was born. Besides pederasty still means man on boy action, and your reference to Shakespeare is shakey at best considering it is classified as a differant language the originated from the freaking 12th century, and I have just proved to you that lolita still has more weight to it as a pedophile reference. Which I don't see how anyone here thought it wouldn't. I already mentioned this once but I'll repeat it. The porn industry is the worlds number one industry. Hell even among the anime community it still got more hits when added to hentai then anime. Come on lolicons can't you give me any better game then this? He shoots he scores. Edit: Faust721 said: Why must i let it go? You say its such a dark word and i'm sure there are history that show it but I have never viewed it like that. I interpreted loli from lolicon. A complex for little girls. So minus the complex we would just have little girls. Even with all the "dark" history I have always viewed loli as little girl so why must I change the way I see it just because you see it differently. I see loli as harmless so i will keep using it. At least its better than saying something like little girls ftw~ cause that just sound creepy. It's not because I see it different. It's because that the other 99% of the world see it different. That's a stretch giving loli fans a 1%. It's like your whole club thinks the whole world is comprised of anime fans, and that a huge % of this fantasy world believes that the word lolita has suddenly slammed on it's ceramic sports brakes, did a 180, kicked it into warp speed mach 3, shrugged off 100+ years of disparage, and now means completely 100% innocent little girls, and that it is perfectly justified by five year olds with camel toes. Which I don't need to point out that no five year old has. The person who drew those pictures was some pencil-neck chump who gets his jollies and a shit-load of money from drawing such pictures. Wake up you aren't eight anymore. |
jupiterjazzJun 6, 2007 7:18 PM
| Check out how a pimp blings. |
| I could really care less... If I did give a hoot, anyway, I'd probably say that it isn't all that bad, as long as it's in the right context and isn't going down the road to pedophile paradise. XP |
 |
Arixx said: selective_yellow said: Aokaado said: selective_yellow said: And I am okay with those pictures too, by the way. Instead of focusing your effort on trying to stop drawing of children that are slightly "bad" as you say, why don't you start a fundraiser for REAL kids who are suffering. There are millions upon millions. How about, since you seem to be so obsessed over sexually abused children, you start up fund to help kids who have ACTUALLY been sexually abused. Thats a stupid thing to say and you know it No it's not, in the context of this discussion. This entire discussion has stupidity, and I was making a point that this is seriously becomming a waste of time. Oh well, if you think it's stupid, then I can't really change that. I also do not really want to change anyone into a loli lover either. And as I feel this has become a bit stupid, I don't really think I will be making any lengthy posts. Just, Arixx, I understand your position. I don't feel particularly awkward, but if you do, then that's alright (not that I am trying to give you "permission", which it almost sounds like. Because I am not!! ahah). Sometimes lolis can be bad and stupid, espcially in abundance. Though, that can be said for most things. It would be a bit weird to have a wallpaper with a loli on it if it was your work computer, ahaahaha. Especialy if you worked in some high end buisness, because I wouldn't expect anyone there to really know much about it, hhaah. I wasn't looking for permission. That's the way people see it in my part of the world. Why would I want to have a poster, wallpaper or other of a child in suggestive attire? I might be a fan of the anime, but I would rather have a character I could be proud to display, like Revy or Kaname, Mao or other mature, strong characters. Oh man.. Okay, I did not even think you were asking for permission! All I meant was after I typed "Just, Arixx, I understand your position. I don't feel particularly awkward, but if you do, then that's alright" I read it, and to me it sounded like I was being a jerk for sounding like I was some allmighty person telling you it was "OK", when that is completely NOT what I mean. So sorry for the confusion, that was my bad. 1. I have zero previlages in the club to remove pictures, so even if I felt compeled, I could not. Not that I feel like I want to remove most of the pictures anyways. 2. I know I made dead references. HOWEVER, I also made a more current one as well. The story of a Japanese person going back in time. The amount of katakana used in Japanese speech is substantially more, and so even 90 years ago, there would be confusion, and different accent. 3. If I went to bloody TEXAS or England, I think I would be misunderstood a few times due to the major differences between the way we all speak (I live in Canada). Actually, if I went to the other side of Canada, I would get confused by some of their slang. I've heard a newfoundland accient, and I find it to be kind of weird, and sometimes they use a words completely differently than we do on the west coast. 4.Your google search is valid, I do admit. That is very convincing. You do shoot, and score, I guess. I am not going to sit here and waste my time arguing that Lolita IS 99% porn. That's just great. However, I thought we were talking about Lolis, not lolicon or lolita. I mean, that's great, you even proved that when you search lolita anime, you hardly get any hits! Because there is not that much of it, and a lot of Lolita hentai, and lolita porn. I just image searcheed Loli (safe search obviously off), and a lot of it was real girls. Real girls, who looked like slutty 16-20 year olds. A lot of BIG breasts. There were some anime pictures too, though. 11 out of 20 that were remotely related to anime. From the 11 anime-related photos I gathered some satistics. Number of underwear seen: 0 Bathing suit photos: 1 towel photo: 1 and this photo was from a site that firefox would not let go to due to virus probability. Obviously this was just an attempt to catch really stupid fucked up people, even though you STILL can't see anything..... I searched lolita and I got ALL real people, except one magazine for gothlic lolita role play... Oh, and one drawing, of women who look 25 and it's not even anime styled... image serach lolicon if you want, I did without safesearch. Lots of fun that was *COUGH*.... Lolicon obviously has the most sexual meaning Seriously, some of the most nasty pictures were there. The worst was the one with like a lot of children and one guy................ Enough said. A few real people too, but mostly anime. EDIT: I see it now. Okay, Jupiter, you understand what we mean by lolis, though disagree about the term we use. You disagree because you do not think the rest of the world uses the term the same way we do. Therefore, because we are defending our position so strongly, you think we are elitists. The reason why I think none of us are really elitists is basically becauset this is not just some random site. it is "my anime list dot net". Anime being the key word there. Basically, this is not a website for.. gamers or anything. It's an anime website, and so people here should either ask what a loli is, or already know. I appreciate actually the question being asked, because I am sure a few people have read this and learned a bit more than they used to know. Really, if you do not like lolis, even our definition of lolis, I see no problem with that, and I hope you don't just randomly hate us all. |
SY_IS_DEAD_IRLJun 6, 2007 7:35 PM
| Well I thought of that, but I got less hits when I searched loli anime. =( I went with the one that would give you guys a bigger advantage. Besides I thought of using images for the searches. Then again I wanted websites with content about each field not merely images with something like the word lolita put into it when in fact it is not. |
| Check out how a pimp blings. |
| but how can an internet site be concidered fact more than a google image site? I thought were were talking about public conception. Those images are what people have searched for, and clicked on the most because it corrisponded the most with what they searched for. Besides, it's our pictures you do not like so I thought it was appropriate to do so. And now dinner is ready and I must study because finals start really soon, and I like having good grades. Cheers! |
| No no. Web content is a much more effective way of proving my point about the whole discussion. Included in web content would be such things as educated opinions on the book, and people speaking their mind about what they think of the whole lolita culture. Such as if it disgusts them or if they themselves enjoyed looking at such material. The point of that was to get the point out that 99% of the world views the word lolita for what it has meant for so long. Besides pictures are flawed. They search by name of the picture instead of the content inside of the picture. For example I wouldn't be surprised if by the fourth page of any of those image results a random car or a picture of a banana popped up. I know as I have used google images a couple of times in my quest for good free porn. |
| Check out how a pimp blings. |
| Why do I feel like I was just called a lolicon.... Anyway... Shouldn't a good amount of those search hits be accounted to those concerned groups and individuals who want to destroy such material? Well, although a somewhat small amount would have actually added "anime" to that search. Who knows how many out there are that aware. Anyway, I think I sort of stated my stance on the subject, but I think I'll repeat it again. Maybe there's some new stuff. Of the anime I've watched, there is a high count of cute characters of different ages and visual appearance. Believe it or not, I don't have anything close to sexual thoughts for any of them, no matter what poses they take. I like the characters because they can be adorable and fun to watch. If anyone is going see these characters differently, then that's their problem. Am I that simple? Maybe. Do I think that lolicon is bad? Definitely. Do I think that some of the images in the SOL Brigade are too suggestive? Definitely. Does it bother me? Not so much. I frequent the image threads of AnimeSuki, looking for nice images (usually wallpapers and scans) from the anime I like. There are a lot of NSFW, which I don't save. There are also some suggestive walls and scans that I have saved. But it's not like I think of anything close to pedophilia. But that doesn't mean that I'm not bothered by some things. The fanservice in all the Nanoha series seems out-of-place and looks like it's directed at the lolicons. Then there's the suggestive moments in Manabi Straight where the characters have their legs apart (FYI, not a single panty throughout the series). Is it that hard to believe that most of us don't think of anything of the lolicon nature when we see such content in anime or images of anime characters? Well, I suppose we would realize instantly what would cross other people's minds. I do realize such thoughts will cross anyone's mind, but whether they take it further is up to them. I just dismiss it. And if I were to see anything similar in real life, then I would be disturbed. I've even seen very young kids in skimpy outfits (granted it was some cheer/dance competiton; and at Six Flags...). Even if they were uniforms, it still bothered me. Some of them had bellies showing! Maybe some of you see it as a contradiction to like loli characters ( and not be bothered by suggestive images of such) and still have issues with similar material in real life. I don't know. I'll use the term "loli" as I see fit. Of course, I know that the term can be used in context with lolicon without mentioning the actual word "lolicon" itself. But I'm not about to use it in such a way anytime soon. |
AsrialysJun 6, 2007 9:21 PM
Asrialys said: Am I that simple? Maybe. Do I think that lolicon is bad? Definitely. Do I think that some of the images in the SOL Brigade are too suggestive? Definitely. Does it bother me? Not so much. Thank you for adding that in so bluntly. I am so amazed that one of you actually admitted you knew the pictures where wrong, and that you did not care. It just proves that your group does not represent ANYTHING that you claim. Every post that everyone of you has made has proven to me, and all the other ALA, and anti-lolis that you are all in-fact lolicons. Wearing a really big facade. I just wanted one of you to admit it. Instead of dolling it, and trying to cover it up. This concludes my presence in this thread. It's mentally exhausting to have the same exact argument with 10 different people who all raise the same invalid points and pretend ignorance in their posts. I am glad someone finally threw off their veil, and showed me the fact that while you have a infatuation with five year olds that you do indeed have the mentality to think better then one. Sorry to be so harsh, but this was along the same lines as arguing with a pack of Christians about evolution, and gay rights. |
| Check out how a pimp blings. |
| He just said he thought lolicon is bad Asrialys said: Do I think that lolicon is bad? Definitely. and yet you somehow say the exact opposite, saying he "admitted" he was a lolicon. Every post that everyone of you has made has proven to me, and all the other ALA, and anti-lolis that you are all in-fact lolicons.Wearing a really big facade. I just wanted one of you to admit it. very nice. |
| You are right sorry about putting it so harshly. Anyways peace Kei. Was fun debating with you. |
| Check out how a pimp blings. |
| I have gone through the SOL images and after weighing the sexual innuendo against the innocence or comedic value of each picture, I have decided to remove one picture that to me cannot lead to any other thoughts but sexual ones. Another picture I also removed because I deemed it low quality ugliness. Every other picture is fine and do not necessarily have sexual connotations to them (except for the loli bible, that's just funny). There, we have proven that us loli-supporters are not unable to listen to reason. I see an entire slew of fallacies with many of the previous arguments brought up before this post (especially the google search on "lolita") but I feel that countering those now is not necessary, and I'm supposed to be studying for my exam anyway. Now once again I hope we can come to an understanding and everyone can accept LOLIISM for what it truly is. |
| debating with you? I do not............ what the hell? Just seriously. You've said some things which I would qualify as being stupid, but now you've gone too far. You're completely manipulating the situation, and it's so painfully obvious that when I came to check up on this discussion, I just had to post. Lolicons and Lolitas are NOT lolis I am sick and tired of you redefining lolita and lolicon to us, and I am sick of defining loli back to you. I am sure we everyone in the SOL Brigade is sick of defining lolis. I think everyone here agrees on your definition on Lolicon and Lolita. You proved it with your google search. And, as I pointed out, you searched "lolita" not loli. They just so happen to be different words. I understand loli stems from lolita. Thanks, as if I didn't already know that. jupiterjazz said: No no. Web content is a much more effective way of proving my point about the whole discussion. Included in web content would be such things as educated opinions on the book, and people speaking their mind about what they think of the whole lolita culture. Such as if it disgusts them or if they themselves enjoyed looking at such material. The point of that was to get the point out that 99% of the world views the word lolita for what it has meant for so long. Besides pictures are flawed. They search by name of the picture instead of the content inside of the picture. For example I wouldn't be surprised if by the fourth page of any of those image results a random car or a picture of a banana popped up. I know as I have used google images a couple of times in my quest for good free porn. You make several refrence to Lolita, the book. La da da. That's nice and dandy, but seriously, you and I (or Kei, as you seem to have made him your main opponent) are not arguing about the same thing. I do not speak for Kei however, but I think it's fairly obvious he's talking about lolis and not lolicon or lolita, as he's said it SEVERAL TIMES. IF you are going to be so picky about a word, just figure out what word we are talking about. Fine, I will google search "loli anime" and I visted every single site, most of them were blogs. Just do it.. I DARE you to click the links..... |
| Well, i've only read page 1, posted my opinion on page 5, and people have seemed to ignore it completely. I "thought" this thread was for your opinion about Lolis? And it seems all you guys care about is debating a stupid term that has been representated in adult ways. I may not be a forum mod, but if there is one thing i hate on the internet, it is a pointless arguement, and this is what this thread has become. I'm going to suggest to Xinil to lock this thread. You guys are tearing away the calmness and fun from the forum. And if this post is stupid, then whatever. Once again, this is just my opinion. My angry, pissed off opinion. |
| In reply to Groovewolf... And pointless. I hope your not saying that i jerk off to lolis. I am not a Loli fan. I just think this thread has gone too far. And judging by Kana's post, she got my message. This is my last post here. Let's hope things can calm down a little. |
BlueYoshiJun 7, 2007 1:50 AM
| Yeah, i got that bit. Just that "jerk off" bit caught my eye. Don't know why. This is definitely my last post on the thread. I have things to do. Bloody exams... |
Groovewolf said: Perhaps I didn't make myself clear when I posted it... I was trying to show how there is anime, ecchi and hentai. 3 names for 3 different types of anime style drawings. 2 are sexual and 1 is not sexual. If there were two names for loli one sexual and one not sexual then everything would be ok. I get what you mean but loli too often crosses the line into lolicon anyway. Take Manabi Straight for example, your typical loli characters with heavy moe. At first I was like "Oh nice, high school lolis without fanservice or cheap and gross pantyshots" etc etc. Then the series progressed and there were a couple of insignificant scenes that kinda shocked me. I was watching thinking "yeah this is kinda boring" then all of a sudden there's a scene with one girl sucking on an ice lolly and it was too phallic to ignore. From serious moeness and absolute innocent girls (albeit with a size too small skirts) the series went over the line and seriously it was not very subtle at all I hope SOL members can at least admit that. I don't think I'm overreacting by judging the series on that small scene. If that small clip of Momo (I think) sucking on the icecream was even related to the cute girls then that must mean that I had just been watching really softcore lolicon. Perhaps that's the reason why we're all having difficulty agreeing on a definition for loli and why the loli-fans are having a hard time convincing us that loli is so completely different to lolicon. Nearly all loli characters are at some point in their on-screen time sexualized, be it subtle or overt. The fact is that they are and if you say that sucking on an ice lolly is just a captured moment of innocent childhood pleasure then you must either be really naive or lying. |
Anti Loli Association Sick of Lolis? Come join the ALA!  |
 Something like this? |
| Huh? |
| Gahh! Yeah that's about right. That actually looks like the scene in Tactical Roar where a pre-pubescent girl was on the beach sucking an ice-lolly. Isn't the concept disgusting, a girl playing with a sand spade and a bucket eroticized by an ice-cream. I can't help but feel like I am being too sensitive but that's just bullshit, it's more than obvious that countless doujinshi will be drawn of her. |
| Anti Loli Association Sick of Lolis? Come join the ALA! |
selective_yellow said: sorairo said: Aokaado said: selective_yellow said: And I am okay with those pictures too, by the way. Instead of focusing your effort on trying to stop drawing of children that are slightly "bad" as you say, why don't you start a fundraiser for REAL kids who are suffering. There are millions upon millions. How about, since you seem to be so obsessed over sexually abused children, you start up fund to help kids who have ACTUALLY been sexually abused. Thats a stupid thing to say and you know it Agree. It is also such a cheap way to not addressing the argument raised and instead shift the responsibility to the other side. And actually, a good start to help children from becoming victims of sexual abuse is to stop endorsing and validating such images that jupiter brought up as "okay" or "normal" images of children. Did anyone else read the rest of my post? I did discuss the topic.......... I've made several posts infact. EDIT: Oh and before I go study, um.. Seriously, you think you can rid to world of pedofiles by posting here? Even the best argument one could ever come up with wouldn't change their mind. It's a mental illness... That was cheap and you know it, =P My mission is not to rid the world of bad things, sure i oppose them but I'll leave it to people with greater competence and an actually job such things. One private person can't do shit about pedophilia by posting on the internet, and attitude campaigns won't work vs a criminal.... What I can do however is criticize anyone doing similar or suggestive things where I am |
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