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Mar 31, 2018 9:31 AM
#51
The results of this poll are depressing. Recency bias at its finest. |
Apr 1, 2018 3:57 AM
#52
Or maybe we just like it better. And when you post a poll in a 2011 forum, what do you expect? I doubt I'd ever even check the 1999 forum unless I had a very good reason. |
Apr 1, 2018 11:49 AM
#53
[quote=newazurill message=54792108] Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: Glenfinnan said: Oh yeah, the ant arc does more than being a self contained bad arc (like greed island), it straight up retcons some of the best things about the show into non-existence.@Snufkin that article represents exactly what I felt after watching both versions, I felt so relieved when I found it and realized (for the first time) I was not the only one thinking the same. I love how accurate it is. Alkasul said: IMO the 1999 version is better, it just didn't have the fortune of adapting the Chimera Ant arc. To me it was actually a divine blessing that 1999 never got that far. I would have today one 10 less in my list if that would have been the case, since the storyline of that arc ruined dramatically the great experience I was having in an irreversible way. What does it retcon? Seemed pretty consistent with what came before. taken from a previous conversation somewhere linked here if you want to know what got me talking about it. Me: "When I watched episode 94 it ruined Killua for me, I thought in the hunter exam it was revealed Ilumi had used his bloodlust on his brother a lot at a young age to traumatise him into being unable to put himself into dangerous. unknown situations, a showing of Ilumi’s twisted love for his family. He wants to keep Killua safe but does something terrible to him to guarantee that safety. It was pretty much the most clockwork orange thing I’ve ever seen in anime. When episode 94 rolled around it revealed that it was actually just a hypnosis needle all along, the progress he’d been making as a character didn’t help him in overcoming his weakness, he simply removed the needle and it cured him. His personal quest ended in a dead end, and it burned down the sights and monuments along the path it took so that if you’d ever want to take the journey again it would be way less enjoyable. The relationship between Ilumi and Killua also became way less interesting, I lost interest in seeing him standing up to his brother(‘s bloodlust) in person, and Ilumi lost a lot of his threatening insanity, since if something went wrong with “treating” Killua he could easily remove the needle to fix him up again."" Me: "Technically its not cannon in 1999 though, so he’s still one of my favorite characters from the show in that version, with some of the most interesting character dynamics/interactions in the show." Guy I was talking to: "Interesting insight, but I must disagree. Killua’s character arc and weakness didn’t end with the removal of a the needle- it simply indicated a shift that Killua was starting to forge his own path and a key moment in his spiritual growth. I also disagree in the sense that Killua’s arc is much more closely tied to that of Gon’s- and that his actions in the CA arc were more of a mirror to his friend, to the point that he went to being the figurative “light” for Gon at the end when the latter was blinded by his own pure rage. I’d also add that Killua and Illumi had less of a relationship and more of a power hierarchy that was controlled by Illumi for much of his life in the hopes of manipulating his younger brother to his bidding (and by extension, the self-preservation command in his hidden needle was perfectly in line with that aim.) Again, when Killua removed the needle, the importance of it was not an end, but rather a beginning of where he’d begin to fight for his own reasons and not hesitate for any reason. I could certainly talk much further at length about this specific point, but I’d say his journey truly began in some sense right there rather than ended. Thanks for thoughts!" Me: "My main love for Illumi as a character was based on my assumption he did what he did to Killua out of love and protection, I never finished the show or the manga, and what I’ve read up on in the wiki didn’t really stick, but I had read that Ilumi wanted Killua to have access to some sort of wish fulfilling demon-face niece. I really do prefer the version I came up with when I hadn’t been given all the information though, just like with Killua’s trauma. I saw every step he took to making his own decisions and creating friendships as part of his journey to free himself from his past, and eventually free himself from it by overcoming it with courage and love. When the needle scene started I hoped to see him fight despite his brother tormenting his mind, and possibly breaking down/freezing up several times during or after it, slowly gaining the ability over several fights later on to resist and overcome his past until it wasn’t a problem anymore. I expected something very different; a sudden disapearance of his trauma by the power of wanting to protect his friend (maybe because I’d also been watching Fairy Tail). What I got felt like a retcon of one of my favorite parts of both Killua’s and Ilumi’s characters. I’m happy other people were able to get something they loved out of it though." Killua was retconned into not being traumatised but just having a needle he needed to remove to fix his problems, this also made Illumi less interesting since he lost the feat of traumatising Killua. Sounds more like it just didn't go the way you prefer rather than being a retcon. I mean I understand why you're upset but I personally side with the guy arguing with you on the matter. It didn't just "not go the way I wanted it to go", Illumi using hypnosis on Killua was not set up at all, the reveal of Illumi being able to use hypnotism is in that very scene, at the time of the original scene bloodlust and the terrifying nature of it was set up, the only logical conclusion I could come up with was that Illumi used that, and not some unintroduced power. At the time the demon face wishing well was also not introduced. The information you have to work with can be used to come up with reasons for why people did these things and what happened. Saying it was an (at the time) unintroduced power is a retcon, and saying he did for an (at the time) completely impossible to decipher reason is a retcon, it meets the definitions I know of it anyway, I don't know what definition you'd have to use to not have it be a retcon. What definition are you using? *edit* Oh, you're using one that says it need to be inconsistent with what has come before, I think that's how some people use it but it's not really the definition or proper way to use it, I think at least, I'm Dutch, maybe America just started using the word differently and it became accepted that retcon = inconsistency. *end edit* The definition I use is: Retcon: making an already proven fact or plot point null and void. basically inconsistencies. Contrivance, asspull, deus ex machina, etc...: pulling something out of nowhere without a hint or foreshadowing. To be honest I don't think Illumi's needle is that big of a contrivance because it isn't that big of a reveal and it doesn't change much. Not to mention we already knew Illumi was a manipulator with his face manipulation needles. It wouldn't make sense that Killua's family would not teach him, their prodigious son, nen. but it makes more sense now since it would be difficult to manipulate him if he's aware of nen. And even if it still feels like it doesn't make sense it's not like any of the previous arcs didn't have any of that and to a bigger extent. Like Kurapika conveniently having all the abilities he needs when he faces Uvo and being able to take a punch from the man who took a blast from a rocket launcher and felt nothing, or Killua being immune to electricity in heaven's arena. Oh, that's not the difinition I use at all. Guess this was just a misunderstanding based on us using the same word to mean different things. Manipulators were not set up when the scene took place, bloodlust was the only concept introduced that affected people mentally, this is why I assumed it was used, in combination with torture, to condition Killua properly, his needles were some mysterious assassin thing that changed the appearance of stuff, nothing more, saying it was something unintroduced is retconning (by my definition, which is more like "a new piece of information that implies a different interpretation of previously described events" -google "Adding or altering information regarding the back story of a fictional character or world, regardless of whether the change contradicts what was said before." - urban dictionary, is fine too, but that definition seems to say it doesn't care wether or not a contradiction is made, not that one has to be made). It's not a negative word or thing to do, Rogue One retconned the death star to be intentionally poorly designed, that's (arguably) great. I thought only Illumi was in on the whole wish thing, not the dad too, I only know this through the wiki though. edit from the last message you might have missed and I guess Illumi did say "I made sure to hammer that lesson home" or something along those lines in the manga, and he said "I drilled that into you" in 2011, which implies it wasn't really something simply implanted into him, but something Killua got through training and conditioning, so saying it was implanted goes against that implication, but it's not something I'd actually call inconsistent, it just retcons Illumi into being a liar. He pretty much had the reaction he'd been having to bloodlust but it wasn't accompanied by the people around him feeling the same, which I assume to mean he'd been trained like a dog, feeling bloodlust because he's in a situation where he's used to feeling bloodlust. Just working with the infomation the show gave me. I'm pretty curious to know what you first thought the scene meant and how it worked. Was the whole thing a mystery as to why it happened up until the episode 94 reveal for you? That doesn't go against anything I said. It could lead to conclude that Illumi's needle is a nen thing, but Killua is able to transform himself and make shadow duplicates and go invisible without nen, so it could very well still be an assassin thing. If you do conclude the needles are nen related that still doesn't mean they have hypnotic/bloodlust powers and have never been shown to have that power before, they only had the power of transformation. I assumed finding a replacement for their role (fighter/killer) would be easy, finding someone with the exact same power would not be easy. It is implied from Wing's teachings that talented people are able to somewhat use nen without being aware of it and it's probably how nen was first learned. For example: Gon learned how to use Zetsu while tracking Hisoka without knowing Nen, and Zepile's imbued his weird vase with nen due to his extreme focus and dedication to his craft, not to mention Neon who doesn't seem very aware of nen. My assumption was that all supernatural powers are based from nen and people who use them are sometimes unaware of nen and thus unable to use it's other applications like ten/ren. Of all applications of nen the only way to transform a face like that is to use nen manipulation or conjuration. Chrollo said that manipulators and conjurers can give objects abilities that could be tricky to deal with when he was discussing what happened to Uvo. Since there is no sign of the needles being conjured which also leads to him being a manipulator which also works with his personality type of being obsessive. As for the replacement thing. Shalnark said: "You and I have abilities that can easily be replaced, but Shizuku and Pakunoda have rare powers. The troupe can't afford to lose them." which indicates that manipulators aren't that hard to come by. It was precisely beautiful because he didn't need to release his bloodlust, it was in Killua's mind, he had mental issues and traumatic experiences. Fixing all of that by saying "it was secretely bloodlust all along. I got ya!" is incredibly disappointing. Any bloodlust freezes Killua up if he doesn't block it, he can't block the bloodlust since it's coming from within him. You thought Illumi saying "I drilled that into you" after he said "don't attack a superior opponent" meant he thought he had taught him a valuable lesson by treating him like a lab rat. But what did you actually think he did to killua when that scene played out, and when did you start thinking it was a needle? I see the implication that "drilling a lesson into someone" means you've thoroughly taught them that lesson an ample ammount of times over a long period of time and really made it stick in there. Like the definition of the phrase "drilled into my head" implies. "To teach or inculcate something to someone by constant, intense repetition" I want you to specifically tell me what you taught Illumi did to make Killua act like he did and how your idea of what he did changed over time. this is weirdly phrased so I don't exactly know what you mean by this, but I'll try responding. All I can say is before the reveal of the needle it is implied Killua has trauma that doesn't allow him to do certain things, after the reveal of it it turns out it's just a trick his brother played on him and it's fixed in about 20 seconds. That is a huge character development. He didn't know about the needle, we didn't know about the needle, now everyone knows and the problem is immediatly gone. Killua didn't stand up to anything, he removed the thing that caused the fear and got on with the fight, he didn't resist his brother's bloodlust, he just removed the thing making the bloodlust, I don't get why you're saying he stood against it. And I'd say him following Nobunaga was the first time he stood up against the bloodlust (I remember), feeling only a small portion of it by thinking he was just following him and nothing bad was gonna happen, but feeling very scared and sweating during the whole thing. The way I think the needle works is not by continuously manipulating Killua but by just being a reminder when he tries to think in any other way. The needle's existence doesn't nullify any trauma or teachings Illumi gave Killua, it just works as insurance for when Killua tries to change, that's why it only affected Killua when he tries to go against Illumi's teachings in the phantom troupe arc and later in the CA arc. Killua have already been forced to be in many people's Ren afterwards, like Hisoka, Wing, Some of the phantom troupe, and most importantly Pitou. Killua have said that Pitou's Ren dwarfs Illumi's and Hisoka's which is one of the reasons Killua got over Illumi's bloodlust. While I didn't expect Killua to have a needle in his head I wouldn't say that it doesn't work because of the obsessive personality of Illumi and the fact that I already thought he was a manipulator. As for Killua's growth, removing the needle doesn't mean that he didn't stand against his brother's bloodlust. The fact that he stood his ground instead of running away means that he rejects it. And about the ordeal with Nobunaga, I don't think that Killua would've gone through with that if Gon didn't stop him and even then it was mostly Killua being suicidal rather than thinking straight so it was in the wrong direction. My opinion is that removing the needle wasn't the one step solution but the another step in Killua's change and his reform. He still was unsure of his actions later like his choice of ignoring the invasion plan and going after two chimera soldiers to help Ikalgo, as well as losing himself to emotions against Palm rather than staying true to his goal. To me that's proof that he's still learning and the fact that he didn't solve all his personal and emotional problems. btw, is my english bad? it's not my native tongue so I fear I'm expressing myself badly here. They were called assassin arts but if that's how you look at them that's cool too. The power is way less important than the role it fulfills, so I assumed he meant finding a role replacement, not a "something pretty unimportant" replacement. Finding an information/thought gatherer would be hard, not finding Paku's ability again, finding a fighter like Nobu would easier, I think the new members don't have exact copies of the previous members powers, Alluka isn't Hisoka, and Hisoka isn't... guy he killed, and Illumi isn't Uvo (He'd be a great Shalnark replacement). I think you're saying this to imply that every manipulator is able to do what Illumi and Shalnark do? Am I getting that right? Oh yeah, I guess you could call that standing against it, it just isn't overcoming it. It's trying to resist and just not entirely failing. I thought you meant it as in actually facing it and telling it who's boss, you didn't, my mistake. And yeah, it didn't make him into a perfect character, I'd never say it did, but it did fix a gigantic problem of his (and made that problem into a completely different problem retroactively) by simply removing a just introduced object from the picture. I'll ask this again since I'm really curious and you haven't given an answer. I want you to specifically tell me what you taught Illumi did to make Killua act like he did and how your idea of what he did changed over time. Sorry for the late reply, didn't get a notification so I didn't notice you replied to me. Manipulators are capable of controlling either objects or people, so it's half and half. Morel, Shoot and Tocino manipulate objects while Illumi, Shalnark and Baise control people. Even though Pitou is a specialist she also developed an ability to manipulate people. I'd imagine every other manipulator is divided into these two categories. " I want you to specifically tell me what you taught Illumi did to make Killua act like he did and how your idea of what he did changed over time." I did think that Illumi tortured him but Killua already went against what Illumi wanted him to do by going to the hunter exam and later when he left with Gon in the Zoldyck arc. That means to me that Killua isn't afraid of opposing Illumi's orders, he's just afraid of Illumi himself. But with Killua's reaction to Zushi, Hisoka and Wing's Ren later on it felt like Killua is more traumatized by the feeling of Ren rather than his brother. I didn't think much of the situation after that until episode 94, where it leads to Illumi abusing Ren to put fear into Killua whenever he disobeys or goes against him, maybe making him spend prolonged periods within his Ren as punishment or torture. At the moment it answered a question I've been having about why they didn't teach Killua nen, which is because he would be able to protect himself from Ren that way. Well, if you look at the manipulators from the show you can see they don't just have the same powers, Squalla can manipulate dogs, Leach manipulates leeches, Kalluto has paper / paper dolls, even among the human manipulators there's some differences, Baise can only make people complete slaves by sexual attraction (and it makes them obviously not act the way they used to), Ikalgo enters corpses to control them, Boki and Shalnark are pretty much the same, And then there's Illumi, who gets Shalnark's/Boki's power in addition to some other powers. However, this subtle type of suggestive manipulation was not introduced in any previous manipulator (to my knowledge) so I don't really get your point here. I didn't think much of Killua not knowing about nen, he's pretty young and it doesn't seem standard within the zoldyck family to learn it at a young age(, or at all, Milluki has never used it and I don't remember any clue as to him being able to use it, like him using bloodlust to torture Killua in his torturing Killua scene), every Zoldyck that had used nen was far older than Killua, the youngest being 24, over twice Killua's age, If you wanna count Milluki anyway that's still an 8 year difference. Now of course Illumi was already using nen for a while, but even if Illumi already knew how to use it around Killua's birth it'd still be feasible he only started learning it around age 11-12, and Killua leaves at age 11. |
197y37h1yho9Apr 1, 2018 11:59 AM
Apr 1, 2018 7:24 PM
#54
The Basic thing that people say is Hunter Exam and Zoldyck arc: Better in 1999 anime Heavens Arena arc: Better in 2011 anime Yorknew arc: Better in 1999 anime Greed Island arc: Better in 2011 anime Chimera ant and Election arc: 2011 since it's the only one that adapted these 2 arcs |
Sup... |
Apr 6, 2018 5:56 AM
#55
[quote=newazurill message=54799414] Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: newazurill said: Snufkin said: Glenfinnan said: Oh yeah, the ant arc does more than being a self contained bad arc (like greed island), it straight up retcons some of the best things about the show into non-existence.@Snufkin that article represents exactly what I felt after watching both versions, I felt so relieved when I found it and realized (for the first time) I was not the only one thinking the same. I love how accurate it is. Alkasul said: IMO the 1999 version is better, it just didn't have the fortune of adapting the Chimera Ant arc. To me it was actually a divine blessing that 1999 never got that far. I would have today one 10 less in my list if that would have been the case, since the storyline of that arc ruined dramatically the great experience I was having in an irreversible way. What does it retcon? Seemed pretty consistent with what came before. taken from a previous conversation somewhere linked here if you want to know what got me talking about it. Me: "When I watched episode 94 it ruined Killua for me, I thought in the hunter exam it was revealed Ilumi had used his bloodlust on his brother a lot at a young age to traumatise him into being unable to put himself into dangerous. unknown situations, a showing of Ilumi’s twisted love for his family. He wants to keep Killua safe but does something terrible to him to guarantee that safety. It was pretty much the most clockwork orange thing I’ve ever seen in anime. When episode 94 rolled around it revealed that it was actually just a hypnosis needle all along, the progress he’d been making as a character didn’t help him in overcoming his weakness, he simply removed the needle and it cured him. His personal quest ended in a dead end, and it burned down the sights and monuments along the path it took so that if you’d ever want to take the journey again it would be way less enjoyable. The relationship between Ilumi and Killua also became way less interesting, I lost interest in seeing him standing up to his brother(‘s bloodlust) in person, and Ilumi lost a lot of his threatening insanity, since if something went wrong with “treating” Killua he could easily remove the needle to fix him up again."" Me: "Technically its not cannon in 1999 though, so he’s still one of my favorite characters from the show in that version, with some of the most interesting character dynamics/interactions in the show." Guy I was talking to: "Interesting insight, but I must disagree. Killua’s character arc and weakness didn’t end with the removal of a the needle- it simply indicated a shift that Killua was starting to forge his own path and a key moment in his spiritual growth. I also disagree in the sense that Killua’s arc is much more closely tied to that of Gon’s- and that his actions in the CA arc were more of a mirror to his friend, to the point that he went to being the figurative “light” for Gon at the end when the latter was blinded by his own pure rage. I’d also add that Killua and Illumi had less of a relationship and more of a power hierarchy that was controlled by Illumi for much of his life in the hopes of manipulating his younger brother to his bidding (and by extension, the self-preservation command in his hidden needle was perfectly in line with that aim.) Again, when Killua removed the needle, the importance of it was not an end, but rather a beginning of where he’d begin to fight for his own reasons and not hesitate for any reason. I could certainly talk much further at length about this specific point, but I’d say his journey truly began in some sense right there rather than ended. Thanks for thoughts!" Me: "My main love for Illumi as a character was based on my assumption he did what he did to Killua out of love and protection, I never finished the show or the manga, and what I’ve read up on in the wiki didn’t really stick, but I had read that Ilumi wanted Killua to have access to some sort of wish fulfilling demon-face niece. I really do prefer the version I came up with when I hadn’t been given all the information though, just like with Killua’s trauma. I saw every step he took to making his own decisions and creating friendships as part of his journey to free himself from his past, and eventually free himself from it by overcoming it with courage and love. When the needle scene started I hoped to see him fight despite his brother tormenting his mind, and possibly breaking down/freezing up several times during or after it, slowly gaining the ability over several fights later on to resist and overcome his past until it wasn’t a problem anymore. I expected something very different; a sudden disapearance of his trauma by the power of wanting to protect his friend (maybe because I’d also been watching Fairy Tail). What I got felt like a retcon of one of my favorite parts of both Killua’s and Ilumi’s characters. I’m happy other people were able to get something they loved out of it though." Killua was retconned into not being traumatised but just having a needle he needed to remove to fix his problems, this also made Illumi less interesting since he lost the feat of traumatising Killua. Sounds more like it just didn't go the way you prefer rather than being a retcon. I mean I understand why you're upset but I personally side with the guy arguing with you on the matter. It didn't just "not go the way I wanted it to go", Illumi using hypnosis on Killua was not set up at all, the reveal of Illumi being able to use hypnotism is in that very scene, at the time of the original scene bloodlust and the terrifying nature of it was set up, the only logical conclusion I could come up with was that Illumi used that, and not some unintroduced power. At the time the demon face wishing well was also not introduced. The information you have to work with can be used to come up with reasons for why people did these things and what happened. Saying it was an (at the time) unintroduced power is a retcon, and saying he did for an (at the time) completely impossible to decipher reason is a retcon, it meets the definitions I know of it anyway, I don't know what definition you'd have to use to not have it be a retcon. What definition are you using? *edit* Oh, you're using one that says it need to be inconsistent with what has come before, I think that's how some people use it but it's not really the definition or proper way to use it, I think at least, I'm Dutch, maybe America just started using the word differently and it became accepted that retcon = inconsistency. *end edit* The definition I use is: Retcon: making an already proven fact or plot point null and void. basically inconsistencies. Contrivance, asspull, deus ex machina, etc...: pulling something out of nowhere without a hint or foreshadowing. To be honest I don't think Illumi's needle is that big of a contrivance because it isn't that big of a reveal and it doesn't change much. Not to mention we already knew Illumi was a manipulator with his face manipulation needles. It wouldn't make sense that Killua's family would not teach him, their prodigious son, nen. but it makes more sense now since it would be difficult to manipulate him if he's aware of nen. And even if it still feels like it doesn't make sense it's not like any of the previous arcs didn't have any of that and to a bigger extent. Like Kurapika conveniently having all the abilities he needs when he faces Uvo and being able to take a punch from the man who took a blast from a rocket launcher and felt nothing, or Killua being immune to electricity in heaven's arena. Oh, that's not the difinition I use at all. Guess this was just a misunderstanding based on us using the same word to mean different things. Manipulators were not set up when the scene took place, bloodlust was the only concept introduced that affected people mentally, this is why I assumed it was used, in combination with torture, to condition Killua properly, his needles were some mysterious assassin thing that changed the appearance of stuff, nothing more, saying it was something unintroduced is retconning (by my definition, which is more like "a new piece of information that implies a different interpretation of previously described events" -google "Adding or altering information regarding the back story of a fictional character or world, regardless of whether the change contradicts what was said before." - urban dictionary, is fine too, but that definition seems to say it doesn't care wether or not a contradiction is made, not that one has to be made). It's not a negative word or thing to do, Rogue One retconned the death star to be intentionally poorly designed, that's (arguably) great. I thought only Illumi was in on the whole wish thing, not the dad too, I only know this through the wiki though. edit from the last message you might have missed and I guess Illumi did say "I made sure to hammer that lesson home" or something along those lines in the manga, and he said "I drilled that into you" in 2011, which implies it wasn't really something simply implanted into him, but something Killua got through training and conditioning, so saying it was implanted goes against that implication, but it's not something I'd actually call inconsistent, it just retcons Illumi into being a liar. He pretty much had the reaction he'd been having to bloodlust but it wasn't accompanied by the people around him feeling the same, which I assume to mean he'd been trained like a dog, feeling bloodlust because he's in a situation where he's used to feeling bloodlust. Just working with the infomation the show gave me. I'm pretty curious to know what you first thought the scene meant and how it worked. Was the whole thing a mystery as to why it happened up until the episode 94 reveal for you? That doesn't go against anything I said. It could lead to conclude that Illumi's needle is a nen thing, but Killua is able to transform himself and make shadow duplicates and go invisible without nen, so it could very well still be an assassin thing. If you do conclude the needles are nen related that still doesn't mean they have hypnotic/bloodlust powers and have never been shown to have that power before, they only had the power of transformation. I assumed finding a replacement for their role (fighter/killer) would be easy, finding someone with the exact same power would not be easy. It is implied from Wing's teachings that talented people are able to somewhat use nen without being aware of it and it's probably how nen was first learned. For example: Gon learned how to use Zetsu while tracking Hisoka without knowing Nen, and Zepile's imbued his weird vase with nen due to his extreme focus and dedication to his craft, not to mention Neon who doesn't seem very aware of nen. My assumption was that all supernatural powers are based from nen and people who use them are sometimes unaware of nen and thus unable to use it's other applications like ten/ren. Of all applications of nen the only way to transform a face like that is to use nen manipulation or conjuration. Chrollo said that manipulators and conjurers can give objects abilities that could be tricky to deal with when he was discussing what happened to Uvo. Since there is no sign of the needles being conjured which also leads to him being a manipulator which also works with his personality type of being obsessive. As for the replacement thing. Shalnark said: "You and I have abilities that can easily be replaced, but Shizuku and Pakunoda have rare powers. The troupe can't afford to lose them." which indicates that manipulators aren't that hard to come by. It was precisely beautiful because he didn't need to release his bloodlust, it was in Killua's mind, he had mental issues and traumatic experiences. Fixing all of that by saying "it was secretely bloodlust all along. I got ya!" is incredibly disappointing. Any bloodlust freezes Killua up if he doesn't block it, he can't block the bloodlust since it's coming from within him. You thought Illumi saying "I drilled that into you" after he said "don't attack a superior opponent" meant he thought he had taught him a valuable lesson by treating him like a lab rat. But what did you actually think he did to killua when that scene played out, and when did you start thinking it was a needle? I see the implication that "drilling a lesson into someone" means you've thoroughly taught them that lesson an ample ammount of times over a long period of time and really made it stick in there. Like the definition of the phrase "drilled into my head" implies. "To teach or inculcate something to someone by constant, intense repetition" I want you to specifically tell me what you taught Illumi did to make Killua act like he did and how your idea of what he did changed over time. this is weirdly phrased so I don't exactly know what you mean by this, but I'll try responding. All I can say is before the reveal of the needle it is implied Killua has trauma that doesn't allow him to do certain things, after the reveal of it it turns out it's just a trick his brother played on him and it's fixed in about 20 seconds. That is a huge character development. He didn't know about the needle, we didn't know about the needle, now everyone knows and the problem is immediatly gone. Killua didn't stand up to anything, he removed the thing that caused the fear and got on with the fight, he didn't resist his brother's bloodlust, he just removed the thing making the bloodlust, I don't get why you're saying he stood against it. And I'd say him following Nobunaga was the first time he stood up against the bloodlust (I remember), feeling only a small portion of it by thinking he was just following him and nothing bad was gonna happen, but feeling very scared and sweating during the whole thing. The way I think the needle works is not by continuously manipulating Killua but by just being a reminder when he tries to think in any other way. The needle's existence doesn't nullify any trauma or teachings Illumi gave Killua, it just works as insurance for when Killua tries to change, that's why it only affected Killua when he tries to go against Illumi's teachings in the phantom troupe arc and later in the CA arc. Killua have already been forced to be in many people's Ren afterwards, like Hisoka, Wing, Some of the phantom troupe, and most importantly Pitou. Killua have said that Pitou's Ren dwarfs Illumi's and Hisoka's which is one of the reasons Killua got over Illumi's bloodlust. While I didn't expect Killua to have a needle in his head I wouldn't say that it doesn't work because of the obsessive personality of Illumi and the fact that I already thought he was a manipulator. As for Killua's growth, removing the needle doesn't mean that he didn't stand against his brother's bloodlust. The fact that he stood his ground instead of running away means that he rejects it. And about the ordeal with Nobunaga, I don't think that Killua would've gone through with that if Gon didn't stop him and even then it was mostly Killua being suicidal rather than thinking straight so it was in the wrong direction. My opinion is that removing the needle wasn't the one step solution but the another step in Killua's change and his reform. He still was unsure of his actions later like his choice of ignoring the invasion plan and going after two chimera soldiers to help Ikalgo, as well as losing himself to emotions against Palm rather than staying true to his goal. To me that's proof that he's still learning and the fact that he didn't solve all his personal and emotional problems. btw, is my english bad? it's not my native tongue so I fear I'm expressing myself badly here. They were called assassin arts but if that's how you look at them that's cool too. The power is way less important than the role it fulfills, so I assumed he meant finding a role replacement, not a "something pretty unimportant" replacement. Finding an information/thought gatherer would be hard, not finding Paku's ability again, finding a fighter like Nobu would easier, I think the new members don't have exact copies of the previous members powers, Alluka isn't Hisoka, and Hisoka isn't... guy he killed, and Illumi isn't Uvo (He'd be a great Shalnark replacement). I think you're saying this to imply that every manipulator is able to do what Illumi and Shalnark do? Am I getting that right? Oh yeah, I guess you could call that standing against it, it just isn't overcoming it. It's trying to resist and just not entirely failing. I thought you meant it as in actually facing it and telling it who's boss, you didn't, my mistake. And yeah, it didn't make him into a perfect character, I'd never say it did, but it did fix a gigantic problem of his (and made that problem into a completely different problem retroactively) by simply removing a just introduced object from the picture. I'll ask this again since I'm really curious and you haven't given an answer. I want you to specifically tell me what you taught Illumi did to make Killua act like he did and how your idea of what he did changed over time. Sorry for the late reply, didn't get a notification so I didn't notice you replied to me. Manipulators are capable of controlling either objects or people, so it's half and half. Morel, Shoot and Tocino manipulate objects while Illumi, Shalnark and Baise control people. Even though Pitou is a specialist she also developed an ability to manipulate people. I'd imagine every other manipulator is divided into these two categories. " I want you to specifically tell me what you taught Illumi did to make Killua act like he did and how your idea of what he did changed over time." I did think that Illumi tortured him but Killua already went against what Illumi wanted him to do by going to the hunter exam and later when he left with Gon in the Zoldyck arc. That means to me that Killua isn't afraid of opposing Illumi's orders, he's just afraid of Illumi himself. But with Killua's reaction to Zushi, Hisoka and Wing's Ren later on it felt like Killua is more traumatized by the feeling of Ren rather than his brother. I didn't think much of the situation after that until episode 94, where it leads to Illumi abusing Ren to put fear into Killua whenever he disobeys or goes against him, maybe making him spend prolonged periods within his Ren as punishment or torture. At the moment it answered a question I've been having about why they didn't teach Killua nen, which is because he would be able to protect himself from Ren that way. Well, if you look at the manipulators from the show you can see they don't just have the same powers, Squalla can manipulate dogs, Leach manipulates leeches, Kalluto has paper / paper dolls, even among the human manipulators there's some differences, Baise can only make people complete slaves by sexual attraction (and it makes them obviously not act the way they used to), Ikalgo enters corpses to control them, Boki and Shalnark are pretty much the same, And then there's Illumi, who gets Shalnark's/Boki's power in addition to some other powers. However, this subtle type of suggestive manipulation was not introduced in any previous manipulator (to my knowledge) so I don't really get your point here. I didn't think much of Killua not knowing about nen, he's pretty young and it doesn't seem standard within the zoldyck family to learn it at a young age(, or at all, Milluki has never used it and I don't remember any clue as to him being able to use it, like him using bloodlust to torture Killua in his torturing Killua scene), every Zoldyck that had used nen was far older than Killua, the youngest being 24, over twice Killua's age, If you wanna count Milluki anyway that's still an 8 year difference. Now of course Illumi was already using nen for a while, but even if Illumi already knew how to use it around Killua's birth it'd still be feasible he only started learning it around age 11-12, and Killua leaves at age 11. All of these types of manipulation allow the user take full control of the target except Baise. Baise changes an aspect in the mind, although strongly, which is making others fall madly in love with her. Other than that they are free to act for themselves but they are expected to follow whatever she asks because of the change in their mind. The needle is similar in the fact that it invokes a feeling of fear rather than having full control. While it is weaker and only works when a condition is achieved that isn't something new as restriction and pledge is already a thing so it allows for different restriction within different abilities to achieve different purposes. Killua not knowing nen is weird. Even Kalluto knew nen and Kalluto is younger, the only difference I can see is that Kalluto is more obedient. Killua already took jobs as a kid and it could've been dangerous if he stumbled upon a random nen user without knowing nen, it would seem weird to not at least tell him about it's existence. Not to mention the fact that it would speed up his development if they were to teach him nen. That makes me think that Killua being rebellious is a good reason why they didn't teach him nen so they can try to condition him into being the perfect assassin mentally before he has nen to protect himself from that ideology. Training him like a dog until he acts the way they want him then teach him nen when their ideology is engraved deep within him that it's unlikely that he would revert afterwards. Ah, I only now see the point you're trying to make, so now I can respond (I'm slow of the mind ya see). Illumi is introduced as having that power in episode 94, not earlier, saying the basics are there for the possibility of him having that power doesn't really matter, it just means him having that power isn't total bullshit, which isn't the problem I had with it, and even it not being introduced isn't really the problem I had with it, that's just the reason I called it a retcon. And even if the power itself had been introduced, it just wasn't clear Illumi could use it, or even if it was but it wasn't clear he used it on Killua, saying Illumi used it on Killua would still be a retcon, so even if I'd agree with you it wouldn't really change anything, I'd just call it a retcon for a slightly different reason. Killua not knowing nen is pretty normal, I see why you thought it was wierd, but I still see the whole thing as pretty normal and not needing of any further explanation (unfortunately there seems to be one though). You're right about Kalluto though, I totally forgot about him, he just doesn't do anything memorable and only really starts being a big part of the story once the story gets terrible so I forgot about him, I only really know/remember anything about him cause of the wikia. But Killua not knowing it doesn't really strike me as odd, the process by which the Zoldycks learn nen was never gone into so I can't really make out how they go about learning it or wether or not Killua is intentionally being kept out of some process the others are put in. I think he was meant to learn it when he was at heavens arena for two years, but because he didn't really have any motivation to reach the top he didn't (and he didn't have the pleasure of running into a nen user on the lower floors), so the family decided to wait till he was ready or he discovered it by himself, but that's what I assumed, you can really assume anything about how they learn nen, from what I've seen at least, maybe the later parts of the manga actually go into it. It wasn't played up as some big mystery though, and I was never looking too hard for an answer. I've made my point though, this stuff is just random sideshow stuff that doesn't really matter much to my main point ("it did fix a gigantic problem of his (and made that problem into a completely different problem retroactively) by simply removing a just introduced object from the picture." If you don't mind that that's your watching experience, and I'm glad you didn't mind that and got to enjoy the show, but I think it's absolutely terrible and I did mind.). |
Apr 6, 2018 11:19 PM
#56
I watched the 99 version thrice and 2011 version once, but still I'll go with the newer version. While I do agree the 99 version amazingly showed more darker and mature version of the series, the newer version has its own charms for being more twisty. The 11 version nature and aims to appeal to broader audience actually made an interesting setup, namely twist. In 99 version, no matter how hard or clever the series tried to cover it, the nature of the series made us knew that some sort of strings are being pulled in the back and it'll trigger several actions which will lead us to nothing sort of calamity, while 11 version nature of being a bit lighter and colorful will lead unsuspecting viewers into the twist better, it's so effective that someone who had read the manga before still got left in an awe. I might have a bias or two toward twist in general, but that's what I find so appealing about HxH and the 11 version did it better for me. I do agree the 99 presented Yorknew better than 11 version, however 11 managed to animate one of the best scenes in the history of tv anime, namely Phantom Trope Requiem better. The cinematograpghy, music, facial expression, gimmicks, you name it, was so well made it was as if the god himself doing the works. 11 version also presented Heaven and Greed Island arc better. |
SuntearsApr 6, 2018 11:23 PM
Aug 11, 2018 10:40 AM
#57
Suntears said: Phantom troupe requiem was done so much better in 1999 though. It made the whole scene way more human and gave build character instead of simply making the villains seem like super powerful evil villains. I watched the 99 version thrice and 2011 version once, but still I'll go with the newer version. While I do agree the 99 version amazingly showed more darker and mature version of the series, the newer version has its own charms for being more twisty. The 11 version nature and aims to appeal to broader audience actually made an interesting setup, namely twist. In 99 version, no matter how hard or clever the series tried to cover it, the nature of the series made us knew that some sort of strings are being pulled in the back and it'll trigger several actions which will lead us to nothing sort of calamity, while 11 version nature of being a bit lighter and colorful will lead unsuspecting viewers into the twist better, it's so effective that someone who had read the manga before still got left in an awe. I might have a bias or two toward twist in general, but that's what I find so appealing about HxH and the 11 version did it better for me. I do agree the 99 presented Yorknew better than 11 version, however 11 managed to animate one of the best scenes in the history of tv anime, namely Phantom Trope Requiem better. The cinematograpghy, music, facial expression, gimmicks, you name it, was so well made it was as if the god himself doing the works. 11 version also presented Heaven and Greed Island arc better. Unfortunately the blogs are still down, I wrote a whole thing about Chrollo's part in that scene in one of them. A lot of 2011 feels like stuff's just there because it was in the manga, and the creators didn't quite know why it was there but they just animated/voiced it anyway, 1999 actually seems to know why scenes are taking place which makes them work way better by giving them the right tone and incantations. |
Aug 13, 2018 4:20 PM
#58
The 2011 version adapts much more of the manga without filler and it's just better in general but the 1999 is nice to watch it you are already a big hxh fan cuz u get to see some of the events in a different way and the filler isn't that bad. |
Jun 6, 2020 5:03 AM
#59
both are good.. and i suggest to anyone to see the old version first |
Jun 6, 2020 11:53 AM
#60
The 2011 adaptation is way better. It's not even a competition. The only thing that the 1999 does better is the first 2-3 episodes. |
Jun 6, 2020 11:56 AM
#61
Sorry my intrusion, took the liberty to correct that for you =3 |
Jun 6, 2020 12:23 PM
#62
Nah, Gon is a shit character on the 1999 adaptation and the art and animation sucks. It seems most people agree with me by the votes and scores. But i guess that someone that likes old anime's like you (by the favorite list in your profile) would prefer it. I can never understand you old anime's fans. |
Rider9530Jun 6, 2020 12:28 PM
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