Fo is no longer invited out for Trick or Treating inside the town. They were:  π β π β π β π β π β π β π  π β π β π β π β π β π β π Please remember to submit your Trick or Treat action by the end of this phase if you wish to use it. Refer to "set-up" for further information. |
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| Wonder if that kill was meant to implicated Dark. Since that was clearly motivated by that end of day discussion. |
 Where there is no imagination there is no horror. || Arthur Conan Doyle || Happy Halloween! |
| People do know it is day here right? Reallly not sure why so many people came on, and voted Shadroxx yesterday when he was a obv LHF and not even there to defend himself that annoys me a lot. Since that has now happened we are not in a great position, so need to start lynching scum today for sure. I think the scum lies in this list still Darkstyle, Hime,Shinchi,Lamb, Togs. I know yesterday I said we should give Hime more time but their late vote yesterday has left a bitter taste, so I want to push them more in the spotlight today. To see if they had a good reason. Darkstyle is a given because of how bad they were yesterday and seem to be more interested in their own life then the town. Shin-chi is still doing all the things that I expect from his scum game like I pointed out yesterday and even added in heavy town shaming as well for a mislynch like it had nothing to do with him I hate to see this. Lamb was a valid option yesterday and one we maybe should of went for more but my issues with not voting someone not there got in the way so I want to spend today pushing them more so if we do decide they are scum. Their whole vote on Shad for bad town play still annoys me as well which is a main reason I want them dead. Finally we have Togs they are coasting through this game atm and I know they lurk heavy as scum so I want drastic improvement here to prove otherwise and it better not be just a consensus view again. I'm open to lynch any of these, I want to lynch shinichi most. since I know his scum game and he is not bothering to help town at all, but for now I will go for the one who should of been lynched yesterday. I let someone escape on day one in my last game and nearly lost because of it not doing that again unless they can convince me otherwise. Vote Darkstyle |
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| Alright boys, I got the next few days off from work, my apologies for not being around for the night phase, but I will make up for it by catching a scum today, or your money back. Crossbell is mafia. Lynch: Crossbell I will be back in a few hours, Walking Dead and whatnot~ |
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Doughkey said: Alright boys, I got the next few days off from work, my apologies for not being around for the night phase, but I will make up for it by catching a scum today, or your money back. Crossbell is mafia. Lynch: Crossbell I will be back in a few hours, Walking Dead and whatnot~ Considering they is no cop ablities in this unless I missed something this is a bold claim. I would of liked at least a reason before you left. |
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| Vote DarkStyle Glad to see that Fo isn't pocketing me. |
Doughkey said: I am not scum.Alright boys, I got the next few days off from work, my apologies for not being around for the night phase, but I will make up for it by catching a scum today, or your money back. Crossbell is mafia. Lynch: Crossbell I will be back in a few hours, Walking Dead and whatnot~ 1. Why do you think I am scum? 2. What do you think of DarkStyle, Shinichi, and Suzune? 3. Does the flip surprise you at all, given that you were on the shad wagon? |
| Shyttt... Fo is Town Q_Q I'm having a mental breakdown now for suspecting him so much. I even spent around an hour to type out a post to question him today...... Kinda agree with Suzune. Scums might be trying ride on the flow at end of D1 to frame us to suspect Dark. But if the scum is Dark himself, Dark might have tried risking himselves to create the situation to lead us thinking ^the above by killing Fo. What do you guys think about the possibility? :/ |
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Shanashan said: Not worth it to engage in this WiFOM (wine in front of me) line of thinking.Shyttt... Fo is Town Q_Q I'm having a mental breakdown now for suspecting him so much. I even spent almost an hour to type out a post to question him today...... Kinda agree with Suzune. Scums might be trying ride on the flow at end of D1 to frame us to suspect Dark. But if the scum is Dark himself, Dark might have tried risking himselves to create the situation to lead us thinking ^the above by killing Fo. What do you guys think about the possibility? :/ There is scum on the shad wagon. We constrain our scumhunting to that wagon and find the scum who pushed the mislynch through. |
Shanashan said: Hime-sama said: I know this is bad since i do not have time reread the entire post since the time is cutting short, and saw some post then ill do this for my vote. Vote: -Shad- Since even though im little convinced of Shad and of dark and im running of out to think so im picking shad, im sorry i hope your townie not a scum. You are little convinced but running out of time, so you ended up just hopping on whichever train you see? DDD:? I panicked and voted while i was trying to back read which wasn't the best tactic. Sorry i wasnt able to be back on till today, ill catch tomorrow afternoon and evening. Ill do my best to read the posts and come with answers and questions. Night. |
| Such lack of posting o.O Also surprised Fo was killed mean's the mafia are players that arent afraid to go for active's or like suzune said they tried to frame dark but that just seems to obvious. |
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| Where are you going to start from? @Shinichi-Kun |
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| @jackrito im still worked on that read list i up to the 7th player in the game ill have it finished hopefully before i go to work tomorrow |
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As in who im gonna pressure first? |
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| @jackrito Am i not allowed to tell people when i think something is a bad move just as much as anyone else in this game can do to me. Btw why are you meta reading me thats gonna bite you in the ass so hard this game. Vote:Suzune I'm curious to hear more about your vote on shad. |
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| Yo chad, you ready to do some sleuthing? |
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Doughkey said: Yo chad, you ready to do some sleuthing? Sure but what is sleuthing lol? |
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| what is meta reading? o.o |
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Shanashan said: what is meta reading? o.o Meta Reading is when you try to base someones alignment off of the actions of prior games or a way of playing. Though I guess they're better ways to explain it. For example Shin-chi is still doing all the things that I expect from his scum game like I pointed out yesterday and even added in heavy town shaming as well for a mislynch like it had nothing to do with him I hate to see this. He's using past playstyle to assume my alignment. |
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Shinichi-Kun said: Doughkey said: Yo chad, you ready to do some sleuthing? Sure but what is sleuthing lol? I dunno, Lucian used to say it, some kind of sex position? |
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| If you attempt to do a "meta read" on someone to see if they do or did something the same way in a different game, you are heavily biased toward seeing what you wanted to see in the first place. If you attempt to make a Post by Post Analysis (abbreviated PbPA, wherein you list each of a target player's posts and critique each one), you are very likely to find yourself stretching to justify a conclusion you already had in mind beforehand with posts that don't actually add anything. In fact, PbPAs are quite possibly the most pointless ways you can waste time in Mafia. |
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| Then I think most of you guys are doing the meta reading thing starting from page 1.. |
CoranieOct 23, 2016 10:20 PM
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| @Doughkey Can you please explain why you think Crossbell is mafia? |
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ππ» Vote Count 2.0 ππ» DarkStyle (1) // π¬Jackritoπ¬ Crossbell (1) // π¬Doughkeyπ¬ Suzune-chan (1) // π¬Shinichi-Kunπ¬ Togs (1) // π¬Crossbellπ¬ β°Not Votingβ°: π»Togs, Suzune-chan, Hime-sama, Shanashan, Lamby, DarkStyleπ» |
SoulEaterQUEENOct 23, 2016 10:38 PM
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| Backreading. Suzune-chan said: Wonder if that kill was meant to implicated Dark. Since that was clearly motivated by that end of day discussion. To be clear you are saying that you think the scum killed Fo to make it seem as Dark is scum ? Shinichi-Kun said: Such lack of posting o.O Also surprised Fo was killed mean's the mafia are players that arent afraid to go for active's or like suzune said they tried to frame dark but that just seems to obvious. I’m not fully following you here, why would the mafia be afraid to go for active players ? |
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| Well nobody seems to give a fuck about Cross, aside from coming up with a stupid plan involving Trick or Treat despite Day 1 conversations over the mechanics, playing safe for the most part but pushing on saying Shad was likely town to gain quick town cred after the lynch, dumb comment about their being scum on the shad train after the fact and immediately trying to turn my accusation around on me, they're cool... I guess... Let's push this instead for now: Change vote: Suzune Whatcha got Chad? Lets work this one out. As a note I started ignoring Dark's posts like 4 pages ago, I will go back and read them when I am inebriated. |
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| Oh Togs is here now, would have liked to see his reaction to my vote on Cross, Hopefully he's typing up a response now and won't see my last post? |
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Doughkey said: Oh Togs is here now, would have liked to see his reaction to my vote on Cross, Hopefully he's typing up a response now and won't see my last post? I don’t have much of a reaction honestly to just the naked vote. I think you’re probably both town, would have disagreed with your case but I don’t feel like any wagons against him will get traction. |
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Shanashan said: Then I think most of you guys are doing that starting from page 1.. Meta reads are actually legit as fuck, they are just super lame so I try to use them at a minimal, or atleast post them as minimally as possible so it doesn't seem null to players who have less experience with specific players. Saying Meta reads are biased is silly. Lets take TurtleBandit for instance, if he is town he posts gifs of anime girls and votes against anyone who looks at him, if he is mafia he pretends to analyze things. I am convinced I have never mis-read turtle using meta. If you go into the analysis with an open mind and use deduction as opposed to induction, you got yourself a jolly good boost. Should you make a case around Meta? No, not really, Turtle is an exceptional case. Should you use it in addition to other reads? Yes. There is really no reason not to. This is more exclusive to MS because we all know eachother so well and we aren't actually good at mafia. Mafia Scum this kind of stuff wouldn't fly. |
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Togs said: Doughkey said: Oh Togs is here now, would have liked to see his reaction to my vote on Cross, Hopefully he's typing up a response now and won't see my last post? I don’t have much of a reaction honestly to just the naked vote. I think you’re probably both town, would have disagreed with your case but I don’t feel like any wagons against him will get traction. Safe answer. It wouldn't build traction since nobody has really gone out of their way to analyze him yet, I just kinnda came up with the stuff I posted before off the top of my head. All of it was pretty legit atleast. I would like to say his vote on Dark was decent since he tried to dissuade the mislynch using another train on someone he suspected prior. But if Dark is town, Cross' lynch was just a good way for him to appear town by avoiding the mislynch train with no threat of lynching mafia. When we find out one of their allignments, come back to this post~ |
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Crossbell said: πΉ-shad-πΉ (6) // π¬Togs, Doughkey, Lamby, Suzune-chan, Darkstyle, Hime-samaπ¬ Scum infested wagon, right here. If anyone did the trick or treat they should claim it right now. Don't do that. |
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Doughkey said: Well nobody seems to give a fuck about Cross, aside from coming up with a stupid plan involving Trick or Treat despite Day 1 conversations over the mechanics, playing safe for the most part but pushing on saying Shad was likely town to gain quick town cred after the lynch, dumb comment about their being scum on the shad train after the fact and immediately trying to turn my accusation around on me, they're cool... I guess... Let's push this instead for now: Change vote: Suzune Whatcha got Chad? Lets work this one out. As a note I started ignoring Dark's posts like 4 pages ago, I will go back and read them when I am inebriated. Still working on my suzune read as of right now. I find her vote so odd coming from a personal that is really consistant and logical about all of her decisions. Also think the way shes trying to look at every players as experienced is just her way of getting attention on to everyone else. What thing i noticed is here >>>>404 seems like she was slowly developing a scum read for fo which we know now hes not scum. |
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Togs said: Backreading. Suzune-chan said: Wonder if that kill was meant to implicated Dark. Since that was clearly motivated by that end of day discussion. To be clear you are saying that you think the scum killed Fo to make it seem as Dark is scum ? Shinichi-Kun said: Such lack of posting o.O Also surprised Fo was killed mean's the mafia are players that arent afraid to go for active's or like suzune said they tried to frame dark but that just seems to obvious. I’m not fully following you here, why would the mafia be afraid to go for active players ? Stay under the radar |
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Doughkey said: Shanashan said: Then I think most of you guys are doing that starting from page 1.. Meta reads are actually legit as fuck, they are just super lame so I try to use them at a minimal, or atleast post them as minimally as possible so it doesn't seem null to players who have less experience with specific players. Saying Meta reads are biased is silly. Lets take TurtleBandit for instance, if he is town he posts gifs of anime girls and votes against anyone who looks at him, if he is mafia he pretends to analyze things. I am convinced I have never mis-read turtle using meta. If you go into the analysis with an open mind and use deduction as opposed to induction, you got yourself a jolly good boost. Should you make a case around Meta? No, not really, Turtle is an exceptional case. Should you use it in addition to other reads? Yes. There is really no reason not to. This is more exclusive to MS because we all know eachother so well and we aren't actually good at mafia. Mafia Scum this kind of stuff wouldn't fly. TurtleBandit? Is that another nickname for someone in this game? o.o |
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Shinichi-Kun said: Doughkey said: Well nobody seems to give a fuck about Cross, aside from coming up with a stupid plan involving Trick or Treat despite Day 1 conversations over the mechanics, playing safe for the most part but pushing on saying Shad was likely town to gain quick town cred after the lynch, dumb comment about their being scum on the shad train after the fact and immediately trying to turn my accusation around on me, they're cool... I guess... Let's push this instead for now: Change vote: Suzune Whatcha got Chad? Lets work this one out. As a note I started ignoring Dark's posts like 4 pages ago, I will go back and read them when I am inebriated. Still working on my suzune read as of right now. I find her vote so odd coming from a personal that is really consistant and logical about all of her decisions. Also think the way shes trying to look at every players as experienced is just her way of getting attention on to everyone else. What thing i noticed is here >>>>404 seems like she was slowly developing a scum read for fo which we know now hes not scum. Her vote was weird because I was under the impression she suspected Dark more than Shad. Expecting her to come up with a big case to switch targets on Day 1 is unreasonable. She also said she would be okay with lynching me last second despite me saying I would not be around for Phase Change. She has been targeting me for awhile and I believe through self righteous bias, that I have been defending myself well and thuroughly against all her accusations. Her going for a cheap lynch on me while I am unable to defend myself seems especially cheap for her standards. EDIT: Her post in 404 actually seems more like shes siding with Fo being townie. I think that read is null. |
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Shanashan said: Doughkey said: Meta reads are actually legit as fuck, they are just super lame so I try to use them at a minimal, or atleast post them as minimally as possible so it doesn't seem null to players who have less experience with specific players. Saying Meta reads are biased is silly. Lets take TurtleBandit for instance, if he is town he posts gifs of anime girls and votes against anyone who looks at him, if he is mafia he pretends to analyze things. I am convinced I have never mis-read turtle using meta. If you go into the analysis with an open mind and use deduction as opposed to induction, you got yourself a jolly good boost. Should you make a case around Meta? No, not really, Turtle is an exceptional case. Should you use it in addition to other reads? Yes. There is really no reason not to. This is more exclusive to MS because we all know eachother so well and we aren't actually good at mafia. Mafia Scum this kind of stuff wouldn't fly. TurtleBandit? Is that another nickname for someone in this game? o.o No, another common player in MS. This guy @TurtleBandit EDIT: 'Turtle Bandit' is my code name on the walkie talkies at work and a lot of people from work just call me Turtle Bandit because of it, but thats just a fun fact, doesn't work that way in Mafia Society, regardless of how much I would like to be Turtle ;-; |
DokidukidonkyOct 23, 2016 11:05 PM
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Shinichi-Kun said: Crossbell said: ..Says the guy who unvoted prior to the Day ending. Like, you can't call us out when you didn't take any stance yourself. You didn't even place a vote down! i never leave my vote on anyone day 1 thats nothing new so can't ue that against me lol. So you are only okay with people using Meta when it is to your benefit? You are trying to shame meta reads because you are worried we will catch you for it. |
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Shinichi-Kun said: Doughkey said: Well nobody seems to give a fuck about Cross, aside from coming up with a stupid plan involving Trick or Treat despite Day 1 conversations over the mechanics, playing safe for the most part but pushing on saying Shad was likely town to gain quick town cred after the lynch, dumb comment about their being scum on the shad train after the fact and immediately trying to turn my accusation around on me, they're cool... I guess... Let's push this instead for now: Change vote: Suzune Whatcha got Chad? Lets work this one out. As a note I started ignoring Dark's posts like 4 pages ago, I will go back and read them when I am inebriated. Still working on my suzune read as of right now. I find her vote so odd coming from a personal that is really consistant and logical about all of her decisions. Also think the way shes trying to look at every players as experienced is just her way of getting attention on to everyone else. What thing i noticed is here >>>>404 seems like she was slowly developing a scum read for fo which we know now hes not scum. I don't really understand the last part. Why do you highlight Suzune's #404 here? |
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| @Doughkey Reference to your vote on -shad-: #338 , #343 At first, we changed our votes to Shad because I thought we were just going to pressure Shad to join the discussion. After Shad declared about his plan, does it not cross to your mind that it is just Shad's bad strategy?
Since you said you also rely a bit on meta read as well. I think most people that have played with Shad before thinks that he is a fairly new player and etc. So there is a high possibility that it is just a bad strategy that Shad came up with. Doesn't Shad as a new player playing out bad strategy not come to your mind when keeping your vote? 2. (assuming Shad is a Scum), Most players suggested that a Scum wouldn't be able to stand still to let Shad carry out this bad plan and would've shoot it down before the spotlight is on Shad. From what I think, you seem like a quite experienced player, does this mindset not come to you at all? Or did you just voted him despite knowing the possibility of him being a Town, but deem him as a bad Town for wasting people's time? |
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Shanashan said: @Doughkey Reference to your vote on -shad-: #338 , #343 At first, we changed our votes to Shad because I thought we were just going to pressure Shad to join the discussion. After Shad declared about his plan, does it not cross to your mind that it is just Shad's bad strategy?
Since you said you also rely a bit on meta read as well. I think most people that have played with Shad before thinks that he is a fairly new player and etc. So there is a high possibility that it is just a bad strategy that Shad came up with. Doesn't Shad as a new player playing out bad strategy not come to your mind when keeping your vote? 2. (assuming Shad is a Scum), Most players suggested that a Scum wouldn't be able to stand still to let Shad carry out this bad plan and would've shoot it down before the spotlight is on Shad. From what I think, you seem like a quite experienced player, does this mindset not come to you at all? Or did you just voted him despite knowing the possibility of him being a Town, but deem him as a bad Town for wasting people's time? I actually went back to quote my post on 343 because I forgot you mentioned it at the top of your post. I answered most of your questions in that post. Despite how much experience you have, or lack of, it doesn't take much to just think about things logically. Knowing now that he is town, if he thought for even 10 seconds before doing anything that he did, he would know it was an awful idea. A part of me really didn't want to believe someone could be that oblivious, I think. To sum up, did it come to mind? Yup. I actually made a big post about this in response to what Jack said about the mafia intervening, I just deleted it since I figured people would get salty with me trying to defend/ assault other players, and it wouldn't really matter until Shad flipped scum. But fuck it, this was the gist of it Most people in the mafia clubs actually don't give a fuck what the others do. Very few players would say anything if they knew the plan. IF they knew the plan. I was about 95% sure if Shad was mafia, he wouldn't be talking avidly in the mafia club, if he did, he wouldn't explain any kind of plans that are that low scale. The only players I know would combat his silliness is Lamb. Possibly Jack and Suzy. Everybody else would just ignore it. Then you have to additionally consider if Shad would adhere to what the other person is saying. Then you consider if he had already been in the middle of the plan by the time the other mafia member commented on his plan. All those considerations are for that 5%. So, if Shad flipped scum, I would have the slightest town read on Lamb. I only lynch Grrr and Chad knowing they are townies. But some townies are worth more than others, I won't sugar coat it. I would be more careful lynching Suzune than I would Shad for instance because I know if we mislynch Suzune that is a detremental blow to town, if we mislynch Shad, we lynch someone who distracts us. |
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Doughkey said: Well nobody seems to give a fuck about Cross, aside from coming up with a stupid plan involving Trick or Treat despite Day 1 conversations over the mechanics, playing safe for the most part but pushing on saying Shad was likely town to gain quick town cred after the lynch, dumb comment about their being scum on the shad train after the fact and immediately trying to turn my accusation around on me, they're cool... I guess... I actually kinda leaned on Crossbell as a Town .. Because of his posts where he said he is sensing his death on Night 1 when most people were reading him as a Town. I can kinda imagine a Town worrying about getting killed when many people read you as a Town (because Mafia might want to kill off those that people believe in first to crush their hope or something). So uhmm.. Crossbell announcing those kinda made me believe Cross is a Town. So my question here is - Is there anything else you have to persuade us to suspect him? |
CoranieOct 24, 2016 6:45 AM
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| Like I said before I wasn't serious about the Cross lynch, my main target for now is Suzune, which I wanted to build a case on with Chad but he kinnda fucked off. If you think the Crossbell lynch holds water then make a small case, throw out a lynch and I will go in-depth with a post analysis. Blatantly speaking, I don't care enough to do it right now if nobody else think its worth the time, would rather kill my time on Suzune. |
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| I seen it~ |
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| Alright sigh.. I am very lost now after Fo deadd.. I will just go with the flow for now since this phase is 48 hours.. Vote: Suzune-chan Made my words in red because looks very hard to read with so much quotes lol Fo said: Cross can we do this instead of lamby actually? Like, they're not even pretending to care about having a say in who we lynch here at this point. Doubt this is coming from a town mindset. Vote: Darkstyle DarkStyle said: fcking stupid... Vote: -shad- Fo said: Do we have enough time to flash wagon suzune? DarkStyle said: Fo said: Do we have enough time to flash wagon suzune? he didn't vote with you... what do u have against him? Fo said: Just seems like a really lame. Oh which mislynch would I like to be on more. Oh me oh my kinda thing. Or you're scum together and she's propelling the shitty shad counterwagon to you. Suzune-chan said: @DarkStyle I'm not sure you are aware but if you keep up your habit of only responding when something about you is happening and just watching up until that point. I will assume you are out for yourself and make it my personal goal to get you lynched. Because it might be slowly driving me crazy. So, while the Fo vs Dark fight is going on.. 1. Fo voted for Dark. 2. Dark suddenly switched vote from Fo to Shad (even though Dark is unhappy with Fo) 3. Suzune also suddenly voted Shad. 4. Fo complaining: why Suzune jumps on the Shad train. 5. Fo's post is directed at Suzune. For some reason, Dark is unhappy with Fo complaining about that. 6. Suzune replied about being unhappy with Dark's habit and might make Dark his lynch target (but Suzune kept his vote at Shad, instead of Dark.) Conclusion: Weird. Suzune-chan said: I kind of do not want to go Dark, someone talk to me. Let me check the facts here, we are lynching Dark because of their terrible argument about Fo being too friends. But we aren't lynching Shad for his terrible, I have a plan idea. Then having to push him to tell us his plan was to be annoying so as not to get killed? That is where we are at? There, Suzune's post before voting for Shad. Since he is commenting that both Shad and Dark have terrible play there, I don't understand why he picked Shad > Dark here. |
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| Oh you're still here, by all means keep at it, it is 4 AM for me though so I am going to sleep, I am free tomorrow so I will have plenty of time to make some actual posts and be around for when Suzune is online. Should be a fun day~ |
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Shinichi-Kun said: @jackrito Am i not allowed to tell people when i think something is a bad move just as much as anyone else in this game can do to me. Btw why are you meta reading me thats gonna bite you in the ass so hard this game. Vote:Suzune I'm curious to hear more about your vote on shad. Yes you can but they is a way to do it and the way you did it is not right. As I said you can not blame people for others actions. Also I normally meta read you at the start of the game, you have some very clear scum tells, even when I'm not in the game and just watching I notice them. If it gets you to be more proactive all the better as well. |
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Shinichi-Kun said: If you attempt to do a "meta read" on someone to see if they do or did something the same way in a different game, you are heavily biased toward seeing what you wanted to see in the first place. If you attempt to make a Post by Post Analysis (abbreviated PbPA, wherein you list each of a target player's posts and critique each one), you are very likely to find yourself stretching to justify a conclusion you already had in mind beforehand with posts that don't actually add anything. In fact, PbPAs are quite possibly the most pointless ways you can waste time in Mafia. You do understand PBPA is a very valid and useful tool right. It is how you spot inconsistencies in play and a change in mindset or targets. Scum will panic and sometimes change own views to match others. It is also how you see their interactions with team.How would you scum hunt then if looking at posts and meta are a waste of time |
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Sleuthing is a form of detective/ their work. |
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Doughkey said: Shanashan said: Then I think most of you guys are doing that starting from page 1.. Meta reads are actually legit as fuck, they are just super lame so I try to use them at a minimal, or atleast post them as minimally as possible so it doesn't seem null to players who have less experience with specific players. Saying Meta reads are biased is silly. Lets take TurtleBandit for instance, if he is town he posts gifs of anime girls and votes against anyone who looks at him, if he is mafia he pretends to analyze things. I am convinced I have never mis-read turtle using meta. If you go into the analysis with an open mind and use deduction as opposed to induction, you got yourself a jolly good boost. Should you make a case around Meta? No, not really, Turtle is an exceptional case. Should you use it in addition to other reads? Yes. There is really no reason not to. This is more exclusive to MS because we all know eachother so well and we aren't actually good at mafia. Mafia Scum this kind of stuff wouldn't fly. Clearly not been on mafiascum much then.Not that I have but one game I played was meta heavy, any community will be if they know each other and play enough. That is why it is a valid tactic they are a couple of people in this club I can tell just off meta. |
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