Attack on Titan
Your feelings toward RBA?
| I just read all 6 pages of this thread in one sitting....and I still have no compassion for B/R/A. Before you write me off as someone who has a black and white and no gray mentality... Look, I understand there may have been extenuating circumstances. Matter of fact, most of my Criminology classes this semester are focused on neutralization techniques i.e. the ways people go about rationalizing their criminal acts in order to assuage their guilt before and after they commit them and I must say, it is absolutely socially fascinating the number of those points/techniques that have appeared in this topic (I'm pretty sure all the techniques are represented here) and others that haven't. Things like "Denial of responsibility"(there were external pressures that forced them to do it so it's not their fault) and "Denial of victim"(admitting that they hurt a lot of ppl but they(those in the wall) deserved it) and "Condemning the condemner"(ppl who say that Eren was no different from BRA b'cos he also killed humans and titans who may or may not be formerly humans) and "Appealing to higher loyalties"(the one about how BRA killed so many ppl for a higher/greater purpose.) There's more but this is all I can remember off the top of my head. My point is that, all these rationalizations and justifications are good and all, especially considering we don't know much about BRA's original goal, purpose and history. However, no matter how it is sliced, they are mass murderers. There's no such thing as mass murder for a good cause. If there was, Hitler would be a saint and it wouldn't be called mass murder. I can also understand liking BRA so much that you can overlook their actions. This is fictional, after all, and I would hope it'd be a different case in reality. However, even if it turns out that they had awfully good reasons for what they did, I can understand that despite having no compassion for them because reasons are just rationalizations and justifications, meant to explain certain actions and hope they will be excused. I feel like ppl are not getting the real scope of what kicking the walls in really did. Someone(earlier in one post, I can't remember who) talked about Itachi's situation in Naruto. Well, I'm not one of those ppl who forgave/excused him after knowing his reasons. I mean, someone rightly said that it's pointless to hate fictional characters. So I don't hate Itachi. I understand(since I can't really empathize) his choices and I can see how he would take the actions he did. But I find it unforgivable. He does too or he would have asked for forgiveness wayyyy before he died. In the same vein, if BRA's motivation for their action is how so many ppl have already surmised, then all I can do is see where they are coming from and how that influenced the type of radical action they took. I can't, however, feel any kind of sympathy or compassion for them (unless they die while atoning because they would have lived a very tragic life) because this is a lot of innocent, or otherwise, people who aren't coming back as a direct or indirect consequence of their actions. If this makes me insensitive or close-minded, well then so be it. Wow, I wrote a lot more than I thought I would. I set up an account just to say this cos its really been bothering me for a while. Anyway, thanks for reading :) |
| Too much is clouded in mystery for my feelings on the matter to be clear. What I can say is that it appears that they hate what they are doing, but know that they must. The Tyke Bomb trope seems to be in play for these guys and their current state of mind. They were most likely raised for their mission and taught to resent the world so they would not feel guilt over their actions. As we have noticed, that didn't go exactly as planned thanks to the attachment they grew for the humans they were supposed to reject. These two aspects collided and the end result became... messy. Honestly, I feel sorry for them. Their feelings for their comrades are genuine and they regret their actions, but are aware that they have no way to apologize. Their actions are irredeemable, and that drives them far off the edge. They are going through quite some tough shit. That is, of course if it's case here. However, the way things are going, this seems to be the most likely scenario. |
dxia said: millie10468 said: snip snip First, thanks for such a detailed reply. It made me think about things that were a bit uncomfortable to think about but you replied in a logical manner so I'll try to follow suit. From what I understand of your reply, you're trying to say that everything is justified in this world. I concede that. There's a reason for everything, as they say. And yes, I may not have "moved from the comfort of an armchair when I've never been forced to choose between some lives and others, or my own life and someone else's" but... have you? I think it's also very easy to rebut an argument or opinion by slamming the "sitting in the comfort of your chair/living room" argument." The Attack on Titan world is such that no one can claim to know exactly how characters were feeling when they made certain decisions ... unless like you said, you've really been in some variation of that situation. Of course if you've been in this position before, well, all I can say is sorry you had to make such tough decisions. The whole point of my post was to say that I could understand why certain actions were taken and that I found those actions unforgivable. It feels like you're confusing "understanding"those actions and "forgiving" those actions. I can understand and not forgive. It's like, when people tell you to forgive and forget. Some people forgive and never forget and some people forget without forgiving at all. Those two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Like do you HAVE to forget if you forgive? You might forgive the person who did something bad to you but you might keep a distance or treat other people carefully so it never happens to you again, and that's not forgetting, is it? Well, in this case, I might be able to understand RBA's reasons for kicking in the wall, and they might have good reasons but what then? Can they bring back the lives they stole? It might be an extreme opinion on forgiveness, but it was an extreme form of violence too. What I was looking at is the tendency of a lot of people to assume that RBA's actions would be forgiven based on these reasons that have yet to be laid out and while I can understand that for something so extreme, there had to be an equally extreme reason, I find it a bit presumptuous. Your thoughts on Nazi Germany are the reasons why no educated person will ever go around saying all Germans should be killed for Hitler's transgressions. People understand that there were reasons, some good reasons, why Hitler's fascist rhetoric were able to influence so many people but you don't hear too many people say they feel "sorry" for Hitler for taking the decision to kill millions of people or that they "forgive" him for killing all those people. I am not an "exceptional" person who would not have done the same as Hitler but I wouldn't expect anyone to feel sorry for me or forgive me for having to make that decision. Yes, my interests have been aligned with the walled population, as a reader, but you know what? I would still find RBA's actions unforgivable even if the story had focused on the dilemmas facing Hometown instead. Like I said before, there's no prettying up mass murder regardless of which side you're on. It might be labeled something different, something that makes people feel better about themselves, but it's still the taking of lives. You left some questions that I'll try to answer: 1. Yes, the government's decision to order a death-march was unforgivable. It was an unforgivable act that saved the rest of humanity. And herein lies the crux of my point: just because something is justified does not mean it's forgivable. Therefore, I can find the reasons behind that death-march sound but still feel angry and resentful toward the government. 2. This would be a case of blame vs forgiveness for me. I don't blame Itachi for making the choices he made. After all, it's not like I'm offering any viable alternatives, am I? However, am I not allowed to feel angry or resentful towards him? You mentioned Sasuke. He understands Itachi's actions (who wouldn't?) but actually forgiving might be a whole different ball game. I mean, its not like there's been enough time for them to just sit around singing Kumbayas for us to know how their relationship would be after that. 3. Again, it might be understandable but not forgivable. Plus, I never said anything about Erwin and Pixis being admirable in their use of human lives but I do find their actions unforgivable too (wow, there's a lot of unforgiveness going on here) You said something like "Without the full story, it is not for us to judge such a choice". However, just like I'm prepared to find the act of genocide unforgivable regardless of reasons, aren't a lot of people also ready to forgive RBA as soon as they find out those reasons? |
OpalMidgeOct 17, 2013 6:57 PM
millie10468 said: dxia said: millie10468 said: snip snip snip combo #3 that's hypocrisy, I'm not offending you but saying stuff like "its understandable but not forgivable" is contradiction. Well maybe not but... its obvious that you are judging them based on emotions and not logic, even if you say that you "moved from the comfortable armchair" you still haven't fully understand that ideals are luxury, specially when something is threating your existence. Instead of Hitler I'll make a better example...the bombing of hiroshima and Nagasaki, if the USA haven't done that the war would've continued for much longer resulting in far more casualties for both sides, yes there was a lot of civilians who died in the process but they were the civilians of an enemy country, and the choice between allies lives and enemy lives is no choice at all. RBA are like the pilots who dropped the bomb, they killed several hundred thousand of people but did anyone in the USA at that time dare to call them mass-murders? no because the people there were relieved that the war ended and the fear of losing their way of life was lifted. Years later people can come and speak of morality and ideals why? because they no longer feel endangered or threatened and the luxury of not worrying about their existence returned, that is called being a hypocrite. Point is sometimes many people can live comfortably because of the few people who decided to dirty their hands. now assuming you read the theory that redeems RBA (my whole defending stance came from that) can you honestly offer a better solution? its easy to say that what they did is wrong without offering a better alternative. that is way "Special individuals" with strong mind are required to make such decisions, hard decisions for the greater good even if people resent them for it, i find that kind of people "admirable". Again forgive me if sound disrespectful. |
annie_leonheart said: millie10468 said: dxia said: millie10468 said: snip snip snip combo #3 Snip On the contrary, you don't sound disrespectful at all. Don't worry about that. I'm not sure if I'm the one who's not explaining myself too well but I really don't see how being understanding of circumstances but not being forgiving is a contradiction. Do you have to forgive every criminal who commits a crime because you see where they're coming from? Do we not, as a society, punish criminals even when we understand why they did what they did? Maybe I'm relying more on my emotions than logic, as you said, because I don't see how I am required to forgive certain actions just because I understand. I actually find it a lot more emotional to not be able to see how understanding does not equal forgiveness. The example you used of Hiroshima and Nagasaki seems a bit narrow in its focus. From the view of American citizens, of course it was a necessary evil, like you said. But what about the view of the Japanese? Can you assume that they've forgiven the US for the deaths of all those people? I can't assume that they haven't either so do you see how it might be possible that while they might also logically understand that the lives that were lost saved the the lives of more people, they might have never forgiven the US? Your point about how years later people come out and speak of morals and ideals just underscores what I believe. Just because you call it one name in times of war and call it by another in times of peace does not mean murder isn't murder. People like to say, it's a war so murder is justified. Sure, its justified but no one has the right to take away other people's lives. That's what I'm trying to say: RBA might be justified but it doesn't erase their actions. Unless you're trying to say that once we know why they kicked in the walls, the slate has been wiped clean and it's like they never killed anyone at all? I can't make assumptions about how the characters are going to feel when they find out the whole truth. Whether or not those characters will excuse RBA for their actions is up to how Isayama spins it. All I know is that I won't be able to stop thinking of them as mass murderers. We can assume they had really good reasons for their actions but we can't pretend like they didn't take those actions, can we? |
dxia said: Snip I understand everything you're trying to say and yes, there really is no morality in trying to survive. However,you seem to think that extenuating circumstances mean there's no need to acknowledge those actions taken to survive while I think that those actions need to be acknowledged regardless of the circumstances. I'm not saying that we shouldn't do everything we can in order to survive even if it means mass murder. I'm just saying that we should accept the reality of what we did. Unlike animals, we humans are able to rationalize and look beyond our instincts. Yes, we wanted to survive so we killed or will kill this many people. Is it wrong to kill people in general? Yes, unless you don't think everyone has a right to their life, which you seem to do by talking about how humans take away the lives of other species. You seem to believe humans have no right to take away the lives of any species regardless of any rationalization. I can't answer the questions you raised regarding this. How and why people believe humans treat other species is up to them. However, just as you whittled those reasons to the lowest denominator (i.e. only the strongest survive), I have also whittled down RBA's actions to its simplest form (they are mass murders because they killed a lot of people). Is it wrong to kill people in order to survive? As you said, self-preservation precedes our species. I'm not trying to say RBA didn't have a reason to commit mass murder. They may have been trying to survive, like people have theorized. What I'm trying to understand is why people are making it seem like the slate will be wiped clean for RBA once we see how they might have been trying to survive. The people who died will never come back, even if they died for the "greater good." RBA might be able to get away, legally, with mass murder but they won't ever forget the blood on their hands and that is mostly why I won't/don't feel sympathy for them. People who think no one should find their actions unforgivable should also explain why RBA seem to have feelings of guilt if they themselves didn't find their actions hard to forgive. Calling it hypocrisy to feel this way also feels hypocritical in the sense that you might say you value life and then condone it being treated like a disposable dishrag. You talk about emotions vs rationality like it's the easiest thing to do to be rational rather than emotional in a situation that affects you personally. Aren't you the one who talked about judging from the comfort of your armchair? How is that different from differentiating between "malicious" intentions and "non malicious" intentions that result in the same actions because you have the luxury of being removed from the situation? Your point about veterans reminds me of labeling theory where the labels we give to people influence how we feel about same actions they take. In this case, wouldn't it be a bigger hypocrisy to condone what veterans do in war while condemning the same actions of people who aren't veterans. Because, just as U.S citizens would indeed prefer not to stigmatize veterans for the actions they took during war, the citizens of other countries who have been directly affected by these actions would be prepared to call them murderers and monsters. Talking about veterans only from the point of view of the country they serve seems a bit unfair. About Japan, I don't think you can make assumptions about their lingering feelings of resentment towards the U.S being nonexistent based on how quickly MacArthur became famous. Like you pointed out, they desperately needed U.S help so they probably couldn't be publicly resentful. Of course, that also means I can't assume that they still have any lingering feelings of resentment either. However, I will bet anything that the families of people who died in and as result of the bombing feel anything but happiness towards the U.S. Finally, like I keep saying, I don't (or won't, once we find out) blame RBA for their choices. Whether or not they had no choice or mass murder was the less difficult of two extreme choices is completely irrelevant. Whether or not I understand (or will understand) the reasons for their actions is irrelevant as well to the fact that they ended the lives of a lot of people. Are you then saying we shouldn't resent the death of people? That is is very logical and enlightened of you, if that's true. Personally, I hate when people close to me die and I resent that they had to die. Maybe that's too emotional of me. In my emotional state, I also find that I can resent both the player and the game. And anyone who has been injured by my existence is free to resent me and find my existence unforgivable. As long they understand that I didn't have a choice in being born (see how that relates to RBA?) P.S: Do I sound contentious? I didn't mean to, if I did :heh: |
OpalMidgeOct 18, 2013 8:35 PM
| Right now I only really dislike Reiner and Bertholdt for what they have done. I think we don't really know yet what else Annie did yet. I mean beside trying to capture Eren (and killing Levi's squad :() and fighting in the city (which wasn't really her intention) so I can't say if she is bad or not all that bad until we know more about her background or the reason why she wanted Eren that much |
dxia said: @millie10468 Snip I'll correct any misunderstandings before addressing your points. 1. I concur. The "right to life" is indeed a social construction. 2. Again, the concept of "right to life" was constructed by society, as almost all philosophers will attest. Depending on whether you believe humans are inherently evil or inherently good, this concept was constructed in order to prevent people from going around killing each other with impunity. 3. I did understand it how you meant but what I meant to point out was that regardless of the reasons with which we treat other species, we have very strict rules about how to treat each other, within our own species. And that is that "life is sacred". 4. I don't think it's as simple as that, that humans believe life is sacred only in times of peace. I believe we do believe it all the time. It's just that we want to survive, in war times, a lot more than we want to uphold that belief. That doesn't mean we won't or can't go back to upholding that belief after the war and acknowledge that what we did was wrong. What I am finding hard to understand is that people are very willing to overlook the very act of taking lives. 5. I do think its pointless to resent someone for having no choice. After all, it's not like their actions can be taken back. However, does that mean you won't resent them anyway, despite knowing their reasons? The head may be logical but the heart is a lot emotional. I do see where we disagree a lot clearly now: you think of things as being defined by their context while I think of them as being imbued with one universal definition. From a 3rd person perspective, I should also be able to see the finality of death as death regardless of interests. Your perspective is also a lot more utilitarian than mine: I don't see how saving more lives then they took can erase the lives they did take. Utilitarianism always seemed a bit cold to me, like playing the numbers game with human lives. I don't pretend to have ever been in a position of having to forgive someone who had killed people close to me but you're forgetting that Scar's realization also came at the cost of human lives. He realized that he wasn't in a position to keep blaming the people of Amestria when he was also perpetuating the cycle of revenge and violence by killing people. |
| For me, it boils down to one thing - was it necessary for creatures like the human-titans to break the Walls, one after another, in order to infiltrate and find what they are looking for. Because, I don't fucking find anything pointing to their disadvantage, given their abilities, and, seriously, breaking into a bait-city could have been enough for whatever purpose the shifters came - hatred or reason. Then they also breached the Inner Gate of Wall Maria, spent 3 years in Wall Rose among humans, before destroying Rose, too. So no - something is way off here, when you are a shifter and your opponent is an idea worse than a sheep in a barn. None of us, the readers, is obliged to take the human side, but for myself, I'd prefer taking the side of the weaker. No one deserves to die, because another has an agenda of their own, especially if the former lacks any means to fend for themselves. It's was a slaughter and resulted in genocide. It's not like I don't understand the RBA dilemmas, but it is still the wrong thing to do and, perhaps, not the smartest. On another note, this thing with the monstrosity of Erwin and co, goes off the track, too. Erwin didn't throw the lives of innocent people, but those of seasoned soldiers, which is what they all do, being in the Scouting Legion and all. |
| Hi to everybody! I congratulate for this really interesting thred. And thanks to millie10468 for posting me the link to this forum. English is not my first language, I hope I won't make too many errors! I'll try to explain my point of view about RBA. I neither like nor dislike them, I see them as victims of their own people. Or perhaps victims of the war between their village and the King. I don't know how old they are, if they really are teenagers or if they are quite older, as Ymir. If they're just guys fifteen - sixteen years old, they were trained, transformed in titan shifter and sent to destroy Wall Maria when still really young. They were trained to be mass murderer; they have been told that people inside the walls were dangerous, evil, that they had to destroy them in order to let their village survive. And this makes them less morally guilty. They seem to know that killing is bad, that they have taken away the lives of innocent people and they seem to suffer for this. Annie is the character with the coldes blood, she's the one which seems to have less regrets. Bernard doesn't speak a lot, but he always has a frightened looks. Reiner is the character whom the autor has given the opportunity to explain his thoughts. He looks quite unbalanced, sometimes he seems to regrets his actions, sometimes he seems to be fiercely willing to destroy the people within the walls. He' s a tragic hero who has to sacrifice himself to save his village. Are they mass murderer? Yes, they are, just as the guys who drop the bombs on Hiroshima or other people that had to do similiar thing in war time. And they seems to be conscious of it. Life is never disposable without becoming a murderer. However sometimes we have to choose between die or kill. To slaughter or be slaughtered. Many centuries ago Machiavelli said "the ends justify the means". It's not always true, you cannot kill somebody just to steal his wallet. However when we speak about survival, that becomes true. If they did it in order to save their country they did the right thing. There is no contradiction in calling them murdere and saying that they do the right thing. If I kill a man who'is going to kill me, and I have no other way to survive than killing him, well, I'm a murderer but I do the right thing. Many countries don't punish a person who kill to defence himself or herself. I don't know the right english word for legal self defence, just call it "legitimate defence". In my own country "legitimate defence" requires that you must be in actual, real danger of life or of personal wounds and your actions must be proportional to the harm your trying to avoid. Of course authorities dont'allow preventive self-defence because people have to rely on police or army for their protection. RBA's village cannot call for police or army to be protected. They're alone against the whole population behind the walls. They did a kind of preventive self defence. RBA are mass murderer. RBA did the right thing if it was the only way to save their people. RBA will be condemned as murderer if the king will win. RBA will be honored as hero if they win. It's sad but this is how world is. Both fictional and real world That's my opinion about RBA, I'm waiting for the next mangas to see what's behind this strange war between humans and titans, or better between humas and humans. |
| Re: dxia Of course he is fully aware that collateral might occur, but it is not like he planted them there. On the contrary, he did his best to ferret them out of the Walls and fight them with armed forces - twice. His initial intention wasn't to fight Annie, but to capture her, as well as her accomplices, so manga-wise, the events of Stohess are to knock some sense into the citizens of Sina, who still believe that titans won't pay them visit. But then again, those titans are the same titans, connected to the breached Walls, right? We don't know the details behind Wall Maria's recovery. What we know comes mostly from the anime, and it says that the Central Government ordered the offensive with the clear mind that throwing back the refugees behind Wall Rose would alleviate the sudden food shortage and would put the groups of Wall Maria under control. It's unclear what exactly stances people like Erwin and Pixis took at the time or if they were in position to "devise" plans. I don't think either of them was a Commander then, but this is irrelevant - as soldiers, they followed the orders of the Government. The differences is that the Scouting Legion also followed and got wasted with the refugees out there. This is also a sign being prepared to lose everything. Literally. Erwin dislikes losing his soldiers, too. The 'monster' side of him is visible after Levi reported that the rear-guard had been obliterated by Annie. He didn't react by breaking into tears, but shot all the damn cannons at her and ordered her joints to get bombed. If you are fighting a monster, you are to be as merciless as powerful the monster is. I think this was the major point. The other, a bit earlier, was Eren and Jean's doubt on how the FT mission is handled. I don't think I should repeat any of this, because you know as much as I do - this is the thin line, where defense flips to offense and it's not a hunting for potatoes :) You know, I do believe that Annie cried because she couldn't justify the killing of humans. She failed as "a warrior" as a consequence, and she took it upon herself. In that, she e far better human than the stupid merchant at the inner gate of Wall Rose, plugged the gate with his selfish arrogance. But there's always difference - it's one thing to kill your own dog, and another if someone just finds your dog unnecessary. The way I see it, the Beast titan poses threat for everyone - the humans, and, likely, the human-titans, although we don't know that yet either. Even if he is to harvest humans, there are so many titans out there the Walls, who could endanger a small number of human-titans, that ... it's just ... seriously. Mom-eater titan was a titan before the Beast appeared and his creations were not immortal than any other of the usual class. So, in my book, humanity still has a chance. But if you rob them from the little they have for your own purposes ..., ... meh, it's like knifing a dead dog. |
| I'm not going to sympathize with a side when we don't even know what it is yet. |
ErenxMikasa said: Given what we know right now, no, plus Annie killed Petra. This. If Annie hadnt've been such a ruthless bitch in her Titan form, I'd feel for them but Annie was and thus I have to assume that all "Home" Shifters are merciless bastards. That said... I get the feeling Eren and Ymir are going to need to team up with them to bring down Ape Titan who seems to be the true antagonist. |
Old_RavenOct 19, 2013 3:52 PM
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millie10468 said: Matter of fact, most of my Criminology classes this semester are focused on neutralization techniques i.e. the ways people go about rationalizing their criminal acts in order to assuage their guilt before and after they commit them and I must say, it is absolutely socially fascinating the number of those points/techniques that have appeared in this topic (I'm pretty sure all the techniques are represented here) and others that haven't. Things like "Denial of responsibility"(there were external pressures that forced them to do it so it's not their fault) and "Denial of victim"(admitting that they hurt a lot of ppl but they(those in the wall) deserved it) and "Condemning the condemner"(ppl who say that Eren was no different from BRA b'cos he also killed humans and titans who may or may not be formerly humans) and "Appealing to higher loyalties"(the one about how BRA killed so many ppl for a higher/greater purpose.) There's more but this is all I can remember off the top of my head. Old_Raven said: ErenxMikasa said: Given what we know right now, no, plus Annie killed Petra. This. If Annie hadnt've been such a ruthless bitch in her Titan form, I'd feel for them but Annie was and thus I have to assume that all "Home" Shifters are merciless bastards. I think, as I already wrote, that Annie, Berthold and Reiner have different tempers and different reactions to their crimes. Annie sees to have no regrets at all. I dont'belive that she cried for regrets, in my opinion she was crying because she had lost, she had failed her mission. In ten years of work as lawyer I have seen very few criminals feeling regrets for what they had done. All monsters, people without humanity? No, just men and women which didn't think that what they had done was bad. "I sold drugs, shouldn't I?", "I smashed the face of my wife's lover, shouldn't I?", "i stole a bike because I was boring, shouldn't I? " They had no sense of guilty but they were very sad about their punishment! Berthold and Reiner are a mix of the "Denial of victim" and "Appealing to higher loyalties" theories that millie 10468 described. It's a fact that they were good friends for the other 104th squad traineers, while Annie liked to stay alone. It's still a mystery for me why she teached Eren how to fiight... |
ryoko74 said: millie10468 said: Matter of fact, most of my Criminology classes this semester are focused on neutralization techniques i.e. the ways people go about rationalizing their criminal acts in order to assuage their guilt before and after they commit them and I must say, it is absolutely socially fascinating the number of those points/techniques that have appeared in this topic (I'm pretty sure all the techniques are represented here) and others that haven't. Things like "Denial of responsibility"(there were external pressures that forced them to do it so it's not their fault) and "Denial of victim"(admitting that they hurt a lot of ppl but they(those in the wall) deserved it) and "Condemning the condemner"(ppl who say that Eren was no different from BRA b'cos he also killed humans and titans who may or may not be formerly humans) and "Appealing to higher loyalties"(the one about how BRA killed so many ppl for a higher/greater purpose.) There's more but this is all I can remember off the top of my head. Old_Raven said: ErenxMikasa said: Given what we know right now, no, plus Annie killed Petra. This. If Annie hadnt've been such a ruthless bitch in her Titan form, I'd feel for them but Annie was and thus I have to assume that all "Home" Shifters are merciless bastards. I think, as I already wrote, that Annie, Berthold and Reiner have different tempers and different reactions to their crimes. Annie sees to have no regrets at all. I dont'belive that she cried for regrets, in my opinion she was crying because she had lost, she had failed her mission. In ten years of work as lawyer I have seen very few criminals feeling regrets for what they had done. All monsters, people without humanity? No, just men and women which didn't think that what they had done was bad. "I sold drugs, shouldn't I?", "I smashed the face of my wife's lover, shouldn't I?", "i stole a bike because I was boring, shouldn't I? " They had no sense of guilty but they were very sad about their punishment! Berthold and Reiner are a mix of the "Denial of victim" and "Appealing to higher loyalties" theories that millie 10468 described. It's a fact that they were good friends for the other 104th squad traineers, while Annie liked to stay alone. It's still a mystery for me why she teached Eren how to fiight... I see what youre saying but I can only think that Annie has only been able to be seen as so much crueler because of 2 things. 1) She never forgot who she was like Ryner and she didnt have an introvert personality like Bert who rarely speaks. 2) Shes the only one whos had a chance thus far to fight against her former human comrades specifically. Hell, shes probably the "nicest" of the 3 because she specifically spared Jean and Armin whereas Ryner in the last few chapters has been trying to kill everything but Eren. And I think Annie was crying more because, when she revealed herself, she lost a life she was happy in, and then when she realized she couldnt beat Eren, she lost her only other life which was with her father. Annie may not have been the open-feelings type but she definitely did/does have them and she must have hated herself for being an enemy of Eren's group specifically. As for why they taught Eren to fight... why not? They didnt know he was a Shifter, let alone the Coordinate. Hell, they all even ranked above him when they graduated so he wasnt exactly a threat. |
Old_RavenOct 20, 2013 5:55 PM
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dxia said: @ryoko On another note; as a lawyer, how do you see Levi's case? He seems to have been a notorious criminal in the past who has a propensity for "condemning the condemner (government)", because he genuinely hates some of the government's more selfish policies. There are no evidences about it, no facts, no witnesses! My client must be discharged of every complain about this! I ask for Mr Levi a nont guilty verdict! :-) ok, I'm kidding Speaking seriously, Levi is surely a quite intelligent, cold blooded man. His harsh sense of humour and lack of respect for authorities makes him a kind of outcast in his hierarchical society. I don't know if he really was a criminal before joining the scouting legion, if so, he probably was a kind of terrorist. I can't imagine Levi pickpoking old ladies's bags. On the other hand, he is now a war hero and an irreplaceable soldier, which in the world of Shingeki means that he is "too valuable to punish", and can therefore insult who he likes with near-impunity. As terrorist he probably got some interesting and exchangeable informations to obtain both his freedom and his role in the scouting legion. I real life very few states adimit to negotiate with opponents, terrorist or mafia chiefs but I won't be too surprised to discover that secret services frequently do it. And criminals who cooperate with justice, helping police to get some important achievment, usually get some extenuations Are they criminals? Should they be punished? Or do the special circumstances of war warrant significant exceptions? If they do, then what do you think of the three from Hometown, if it turns out there are extenuating circumstances? Do you think that the "winner takes all" nature of war is a matter of right or wrong, or in a more nihilistic way; that notions of right or wrong are no longer significant? I think that in war the notions of right or wrong have little meanings. It would be easy for me to declare that even war must have rules and fair play. It would be easy because I don't live in a country destroyed by war or civil war; I go to work I don't fear that somebody could bomb my hometown and I' m sure that no lord of war is waiting for me near my office. What if my life would really be at risk? Wouldn't I struggle with all my force to survive? |
| The irony in your comment. "They are humans with emotions and reasons." Hehe. Seriously though, I also think the RBA are the most interesting characters. I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again. RBA= EMA Eren and Reiner are the powerhouses and charisma of their respective trios. Mikasa and Annie are the silent fem fatales, the best fighters of their trios. Armin and Bertholdt are the wimps who begin to evolve as people, albeit in different directions (Armin less human, Bert more human). |
| Deconstruction ≠ Darker & Edgier Trope ≠ Cliché (Face it, nothing is completely original. Can't make something from nothing so to say.). Fanservice ≠ Ecchi (Though ecchi can please the fans!) Popular ≠ Sucks... maybe Seinen = K-ON! Shounen, Shoujo, Seinen and Josei are demographics. Anime/Manga = Japanese Cartoons! Deal with it. Support Movember. Raise awareness of men's health issues. Put a mustache on your avatars or something... |
| You make them sound like a one dimensional characters, they're a lot more complex than that. HalfMetalJacket said: Seriously though, I also think the RBA are the most interesting characters. I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again. RBA= EMA Eren and Reiner are the powerhouses and charisma of their respective trios. Mikasa and Annie are the silent fem fatales, the best fighters of their trios. Armin and Bertholdt are the wimps who begin to evolve as people, albeit in different directions (Armin less human, Bert more human). lol I agree, each person have his/her counterpart. the guy who made this pic also agrees. |
IshtaRinOct 23, 2013 4:12 AM
annie_leonheart said: lol I agree, each person have his/her counterpart. the guy who made this pic also agrees. Isayama better tell us who won that fight. Seriously. |
| Deconstruction ≠ Darker & Edgier Trope ≠ Cliché (Face it, nothing is completely original. Can't make something from nothing so to say.). Fanservice ≠ Ecchi (Though ecchi can please the fans!) Popular ≠ Sucks... maybe Seinen = K-ON! Shounen, Shoujo, Seinen and Josei are demographics. Anime/Manga = Japanese Cartoons! Deal with it. Support Movember. Raise awareness of men's health issues. Put a mustache on your avatars or something... |
| If they give me a reason to be sympathetic towards them, then I probably will. But as of right now, I despise them. |
Throttlee said: BdaaN said: On a personal level i really don't find RBA to be that interesting at all. They're just child soldiers. One with daddy issues, One with identity issues, and one who's a complete coward. Thats how i think of them at the moment, my opinion could change but i have a feeling there isn't not going to be much depth to them. Hopefully i'm suprised. finally someone gave a reason to not like them instead of just babbling that they killed people. as if eren have never done that. This is actually the first time I see someone giving a reason for disliking the trio on the basis of their characterizations and not just on whether or not they're good or evil. But I disagree with the assertion that they don't have much depth to them. They're not the most developed, but that's only because they haven't gotten the bulk of the spotlight yet. Characters like RBA are gold mines when it comes to intriguing storytelling, since there are so many avenues you can take with them. If you pay very close attention, you will notice that their characterizations are juxtapositions of seemingly contradictory aspects. Reiner is guilt-ridden and suffers a mental breakdown, but to say that is the entirety of his characterization is silly. He genuinely cares for his former teammates, as evidenced by the numerous times he throws himself in harm's way to protect the others. That strength of heart juxtaposed with his almost cowardly way of dissociating himself from his actions to cope with his guilt is just so fascinating to watch. You admire his dedication and his commitment to the task at hand, and yet you absolutely loathe his attempts to deflect his complicity in enacting genocide on the human race. Annie is the character with arguably the most depth in the story. She clearly revels in battle and enjoys it, as deduced by Eren. Just see her amusing herself by inventing creative ways to kill those poor Scouting Legion saps. Yet she's also torn by guilt and self-loathing, as evidenced when she cries over a corpse at Trost and tells Marlo that she's a shitty human being. Just that aspect alone would be intriguing enough: the seemingly contradictory juxtaposition of the sadistic and bloodthirsty young woman with the guilt-ridden little girl who loves her father. But you can also see that she's an intelligent girl who recognizes and admires the spirit and the guts that guys like Eren and Armin possess, those same qualities that she knows she lacks. An introspective villain like that is rare, and quite refreshing to see. What's great is how subtle her characterization is. One of Isayama's weaknesses as a writer is that he can sometimes come off as heavy-handed, sometimes having other characters spell out the traits of another. But you never have that happen with Annie; you never have another character point out her traits for the reader. You can deduce them merely by paying attention, and it's done so subtly that it never feels ham-fisted. The Colossal Titan is supposed to be this overwhelming, fear-inspiring force, a complete juggernaut of a titan unlike any other previously seen. He's big, he's bad, and he kicks down walls for shits and giggles. Which is why it's so brilliant that you would never expect that the man behind all of that destruction is a self-loathing, timid, and nervous wreck. He may be somewhat shielded from direct interaction with his victims due to his gigantic titan, but he's still tortured by what he has to do and his guilt is genuine. Admittedly he isn't as fleshed out as the others, but that should change as he gets more panel time. |
Throttlee said: BdaaN said: On a personal level i really don't find RBA to be that interesting at all. They're just child soldiers. One with daddy issues, One with identity issues, and one who's a complete coward. Thats how i think of them at the moment, my opinion could change but i have a feeling there isn't not going to be much depth to them. Hopefully i'm suprised. finally someone gave a reason to not like them instead of just babbling that they killed people. as if eren have never done that. annie_leonheart said: lol I agree, each person have his/her counterpart. the guy who made this pic also agrees. lol that's cute At least we know why Eren's killed, we still don't know what RBA's objective is. They don't deserve to be cut any slack until we do. |
Throttlee said: ErenxMikasa said: At least we know why Eren's killed, we still don't know what RBA's objective is. They don't deserve to be cut any slack until we do. Sorry I won't waste my time answering this. Agreed with Jotaro_Kujo and dxia, that's how I feel about them too. Couldn't have said it better myself. |
| Deconstruction ≠ Darker & Edgier Trope ≠ Cliché (Face it, nothing is completely original. Can't make something from nothing so to say.). Fanservice ≠ Ecchi (Though ecchi can please the fans!) Popular ≠ Sucks... maybe Seinen = K-ON! Shounen, Shoujo, Seinen and Josei are demographics. Anime/Manga = Japanese Cartoons! Deal with it. Support Movember. Raise awareness of men's health issues. Put a mustache on your avatars or something... |
xtremexx said: Reiner and Annie i can consider forgiving. but seriously Bert can go f himself. i hate him especially because he said "i felt pity" when eren asked him what he felt towards him after technically leading to the killing of his mother. I thought about it and honestly what do you expect him to do... get on his knees and beg for forgiveness? that will only end up with enraging eren even more. he's obviously awkward and he already accepted that what he did is unforgivable so he doesn't seek forgiveness because he still thinks that what they did was necessary (when he said "someone has to do it, someone must stain their hands with blood"). i still think that it would've been better if he just kept silent when eren asked him that but like i said... he's awkward. |
HalfMetalJacket said: Throttlee said: ErenxMikasa said: At least we know why Eren's killed, we still don't know what RBA's objective is. They don't deserve to be cut any slack until we do. Sorry I won't waste my time answering this. Agreed with Jotaro_Kujo and dxia, that's how I feel about them too. Couldn't have said it better myself. It doesn't matter how much you want to humanize RBA, the bottom line is reasons matter.They currently lack one. They did terrible things. They may have good reasons. Yet people are willing to go out of their way to defend them or forgive them. |
ErenxMikasa said: HalfMetalJacket said: Throttlee said: ErenxMikasa said: At least we know why Eren's killed, we still don't know what RBA's objective is. They don't deserve to be cut any slack until we do. Sorry I won't waste my time answering this. Agreed with Jotaro_Kujo and dxia, that's how I feel about them too. Couldn't have said it better myself. It doesn't matter how much you want to humanize RBA, the bottom line is reasons matter.They currently lack one. They did terrible things. They may have good reasons. Yet people are willing to go out of their way to defend them or forgive them. I never said I'd forgive them yet. I just love how mentally wrecked they are! As villains, they are intriguing to say the least. In terms of their crimes, yeah they going find forgiveness incredibly difficult to find. |
| Deconstruction ≠ Darker & Edgier Trope ≠ Cliché (Face it, nothing is completely original. Can't make something from nothing so to say.). Fanservice ≠ Ecchi (Though ecchi can please the fans!) Popular ≠ Sucks... maybe Seinen = K-ON! Shounen, Shoujo, Seinen and Josei are demographics. Anime/Manga = Japanese Cartoons! Deal with it. Support Movember. Raise awareness of men's health issues. Put a mustache on your avatars or something... |
HalfMetalJacket said: ErenxMikasa said: HalfMetalJacket said: Throttlee said: ErenxMikasa said: At least we know why Eren's killed, we still don't know what RBA's objective is. They don't deserve to be cut any slack until we do. Sorry I won't waste my time answering this. Agreed with Jotaro_Kujo and dxia, that's how I feel about them too. Couldn't have said it better myself. It doesn't matter how much you want to humanize RBA, the bottom line is reasons matter.They currently lack one. They did terrible things. They may have good reasons. Yet people are willing to go out of their way to defend them or forgive them. I never said I'd forgive them yet. I just love how mentally wrecked they are! As villains, they are intriguing to say the least. In terms of their crimes, yeah they going find forgiveness incredibly difficult to find. I'm glad you see it that way, I'm just saying that a lot of people in this thread are. |
ErenxMikasa said: HalfMetalJacket said: Throttlee said: ErenxMikasa said: At least we know why Eren's killed, we still don't know what RBA's objective is. They don't deserve to be cut any slack until we do. Sorry I won't waste my time answering this. Agreed with Jotaro_Kujo and dxia, that's how I feel about them too. Couldn't have said it better myself. It doesn't matter how much you want to humanize RBA, the bottom line is reasons matter.They currently lack one. They did terrible things. They may have good reasons. Yet people are willing to go out of their way to defend them or forgive them. Look... Snk strong point is the setting and the mystery, but there is many hints thrown around specially concerning RBA motives. Hints like: 1- why didn't they break wall Maria again after plugging it with a boulder using eren Titan, they could've easily done that if their motive was simply exterminating all humans, but they didn't because they found another (better) way to accomplish their goal with eren power. 2- Ymir went back and helped them even though she could've went with the scouting legion and her beloved christa, she probably know why they broke the walls and she wouldn't go back if she thought they were just murders with no good reason. 3- the fact that they continue to do what they do even though they are obviously burdened with guilt and heavy conscious like its necessary implying that its for the greater good. 4- the fact the ape Titan is not working with RBA suggest the possibility of a 3rd faction and a war going on between hometown and the ape faction. And ape transforming people inside the walls to titans like if he was recruiting them for war. I can go on and on but it was all covered up with the theory that redeems RBA (you should read it, I know me and dxia keep telling people to read the theory but its really good). Point is if you take RBA at face value ofc your going to hate them but if you try to look at all the hints around you might change your mind. Tl;dr: there is many hints that suggest that RBA have a very good reason. |
annie_leonheart said: ErenxMikasa said: HalfMetalJacket said: Throttlee said: ErenxMikasa said: At least we know why Eren's killed, we still don't know what RBA's objective is. They don't deserve to be cut any slack until we do. Sorry I won't waste my time answering this. Agreed with Jotaro_Kujo and dxia, that's how I feel about them too. Couldn't have said it better myself. It doesn't matter how much you want to humanize RBA, the bottom line is reasons matter.They currently lack one. They did terrible things. They may have good reasons. Yet people are willing to go out of their way to defend them or forgive them. Look... Snk strong point is the setting and the mystery, but there is many hints thrown around specially concerning RBA motives. Hints like: 1- why didn't they break wall Maria again after plugging it with a boulder using eren Titan, they could've easily done that if their motive was simply exterminating all humans, but they didn't because they found another (better) way to accomplish their goal with eren power. 2- Ymir went back and helped them even though she could've went with the scouting legion and her beloved christa, she probably know why they broke the walls and she wouldn't go back if she thought they were just murders with no good reason. 3- the fact that they continue to do what they do even though they are obviously burdened with guilt and heavy conscious like its necessary implying that its for the greater good. 4- the fact the ape Titan is not working with RBA suggest the possibility of a 3rd faction and a war going on between hometown and the ape faction. And ape transforming people inside the walls to titans like if he was recruiting them for war. I can go on and on but it was all covered up with the theory that redeems RBA (you should read it, I know me and dxia keep telling people to read the theory but its really good). Point is if you take RBA at face value ofc your going to hate them but if you try to look at all the hints around you might change your mind. Tl;dr: there is many hints that suggest that RBA have a very good reason. Those aren't hints, it's pure speculation based on your interpretation of their character. While I think it's likely they have a decent reason, we don't actually know. |
ErenxMikasa said: Those aren't hints, it's pure speculation based on your interpretation of their character. While I think it's likely they have a decent reason, we don't actually know. How is it a pure speculation? almost all people in this thread think they had a good reason after watching the latest chapters, you said it yourself that they "likely" have a decent reason... how did you come with such conclusion if not for all the hints provided in the manga so far? Even eren was asking himself "for what great cause did you bring yourself to kill people" when he was fighting annie. The speculations about their motive came out later for the people who said that there is no way to forgive them even after knowing their reasons, we just provided the thread with a number of situations that cannot be solved without resorting to a difficult decision. yes we don't know their reasons yet but I'm pretty sure it wasn't for the kicks. |
annie_leonheart said: ErenxMikasa said: Those aren't hints, it's pure speculation based on your interpretation of their character. While I think it's likely they have a decent reason, we don't actually know. How is it a pure speculation? almost all people in this thread think they had a good reason after watching the latest chapters, you said it yourself that they "likely" have a decent reason... how did you come with such conclusion if not for all the hints provided in the manga so far? Even eren was asking himself "for what great cause did you bring yourself to kill people" when he was fighting annie. The speculations about their motive came out later for the people who said that there is no way to forgive them even after knowing their reasons, we just provided the thread with a number of situations that cannot be solved without resorting to a difficult decision. yes we don't know their reasons yet but I'm pretty sure it wasn't for the kicks. I said likely because I doubt Isayame would give them a bad reason, but it's not necessarily true. But to forgive someone on the chance that they have a good reason without knowing is dumb. |
| Nobody said they gonna forgive them without knowing what their motive is, the real question was will you still forgive them if they had a good reason. Examples for a good reason have been mentioned before in the thread that "could" change people opinion about them and reduce the hostility that they are receiving right now. I don't want to sound redundant so I'll stop here. |
IshtaRinOct 27, 2013 7:10 AM
annie_leonheart said: Nobody said they gonna forgive them without knowing what their motive is, the real question was will you still forgive them if they had a good reason. Examples for a good reason have been mentioned before in the thread that "could" change people opinion about them and reduce the hostility that they are receiving right now. I don't want to sound redundant so I'll stop here. Maybe. But people keep talking as if they know there's a good reason when they don't. |
Throttlee said: I love Eren, but does he even think? (Not gonna procceed on this since Eren is not the topic.) I agree with you but I didn't dare to post it for first. We should create a topic about Eren's lack of reasoning skill! |
| Where did we see RBA "think" again? |
edseiya said: Im sorry but there is no justification for killing hundreds of people..for everything they have done to mankind, Sure they must "have their reasons.." obviously... but sorry, they are nothing but cold blodded killers. Lots of people died because of this trio., Annie massacred everybody on that forest, and she havnt showed not a single little remorse.. all she did when she was hell, EVERYBODY that had died on this manga since chapter 1 is thanks to them... so no.. no sympathy still have to see whats going on with them in the future. They seem a tad passionate to be cold blooded... |
| Deconstruction ≠ Darker & Edgier Trope ≠ Cliché (Face it, nothing is completely original. Can't make something from nothing so to say.). Fanservice ≠ Ecchi (Though ecchi can please the fans!) Popular ≠ Sucks... maybe Seinen = K-ON! Shounen, Shoujo, Seinen and Josei are demographics. Anime/Manga = Japanese Cartoons! Deal with it. Support Movember. Raise awareness of men's health issues. Put a mustache on your avatars or something... |
MikasaxEren said: There is never a good enough reason to kill 250,000 people without trying other options first. This. |
| Kim: Uh, motherfucker tryna rape me? I don't wanna give him skin rash! I wanna shut that nigga down! Abernathy: How about a knife at least? Kim: Yeah, you know what happens to motherfuckers carry knives? They get shot! Look, if I ever become a famous actress, I wont carry a gun. I'll hire me a do-dirt nigga, and he'll carry the gun. And when shit goes down, I'll sit back and laugh, but until that day, it's Wild West motherfucker! |
edseiya said: Annie massacred everybody on that forest, and she havnt showed not a single little remorse.. all she did when she was discovered is put that psycho bitch face and transform. About this if you observe carefully you will see that she only killed the soldiers coming at her or the ones who got on the way of her objective. When the FT first appeared she ran past the two scouting legion members ignoring them till they decided to attack her...every other death caused by the FT followed the same pattern, I don't blame the scouting legions for attacking a Titan but in the same time FT didn't kill indiscriminately. Edit: ErenxMikasa said: Where did we see RBA "think" again? Hizu said: MikasaxEren said: There is never a good enough reason to kill 250,000 people without trying other options first. This. Well they changed their initial objective when they discovered eren power, you can consider that both "thinking" and "trying other options". |
IshtaRinOct 28, 2013 11:28 PM
annie_leonheart said: edseiya said: Annie massacred everybody on that forest, and she havnt showed not a single little remorse.. all she did when she was discovered is put that psycho bitch face and transform. About this if you observe carefully you will see that she only killed the soldiers coming at her or the ones who got on the way of her objective. When the FT first appeared she ran past the two scouting legion members ignoring them till they decided to attack her...every other death caused by the FT followed the same pattern, I don't blame the scouting legions for attacking a Titan but in the same time FT didn't kill indiscriminately. Edit: ErenxMikasa said: Where did we see RBA "think" again? Hizu said: MikasaxEren said: There is never a good enough reason to kill 250,000 people without trying other options first. This. Well they changed their initial objective when they discovered eren power, you can consider that both "thinking" and "trying other options". That's not any more "thinking" than Eren does. |
| I'm willing to hear their side of the story. I don't think anything can really justifying being the cause of the death of lots of innocent people when they breached the wall, but they don't seem like cold hearted killers. They do seem traumatized by what they've done, but only did what they did out of necessity for their goal. IIRC they were little kids when they first breached the wall. I doubt they thought of that themselves. Obviously they are not the ones pulling the strings. I think there are much bigger threats and they have probably been manipulated somehow. Who knows it might turn out they are the good guys and humanity is the bad guys. Overall I don't hate them until we see their side of the story. I think they are interesting characters. I wasn't really attached to anybody that was killed for their cause so I have no personal grudge either. |
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