| This thread is how I met jc. Must have been unmei ( ? ヮ?) |
willyvereb said: The problem also lies in the Servants(Heroic Spirits) incredibily confusing existence in time. A Heroic Spirit is summoned in various times, worlds and places AT ONCE. That's why Servants aren't gaining memroies because they theoretically already experienced everything which happened to them, but it's like a faraway memory to them as they experience far too many things. Now try to understand a being only forcedly recognised by the world as existing, having a pseudo-human half-spiritual body being formed by one of the True magics and existing in almost every alternate parallell world and timeline in existence. That's a Servant.:D It's not like ereasing the poinson or the tain of alien body(vampiric blood) or killing the nature in an area. Understanding such a complicated thing like a Servant is extremely hard even by a rough explanation. Now imagine if you're sudenly assaulted by a Servant's whole meaning and extends of existance...instant brain failure.:p But Satsujinki uses Future version of Linux..so he wont have Crash problems like Windows >.< Shiki's Brains was supposed to explode when seeing the pointss in non-living things....yet he did it and he continued to fight after seeing what was supposed to kill him... He "killed" his own fears also..(Kishima Kouma in Kagetsu Tohya), vampire blood, etc. even if it where only "lines" it would be enough for a RM to become unstable... a servant losing its NP's half would mean a lot to me >.> |
NasuverseproDec 24, 2009 12:18 PM
| "Got it?this is what it means to kill things" |
| Satsujinki can. |
Aku-Tan said: Satsujinki can. yes, he is the guy =3 |
| "Got it?this is what it means to kill things" |
| And how? He seals his ees with a Holy Cloth originated from the Church just to survive the everydays life. He might've gained more mastery over his eyes, but they also grew stronger. And even if he can he only volunteers for suicide. Afteral Killing Servants that way apparently means blasting a huge prana-bomb next to you.:p That's why even 3rd Personality Ryougi Shiki who supposedly able to kill anything even mere concepts can't defeat a Servant. |
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willyvereb said: And how? He seals his ees with a Holy Cloth originated from the Church just to survive the everydays life. He might've gained more mastery over his eyes, but they also grew stronger. And even if he can he only volunteers for suicide. Afteral Killing Servants that way apparently means blasting a huge prana-bomb next to you.:p That's why even 3rd Personality Ryougi Shiki who supposedly able to kill anything even mere concepts can't defeat a Servant. Their eyes are different, Ryougi=origin, Nanaya=Existance Ryougi cant cause the origin of Servants is not 1(lifespan's exact moments, infinity), but existance of servants derivate from 1. Satsujinki is supposed to kill Primate Murder in the future... Recall he is Gaia's CF, he will eventuall y be able to understand them. if he will develop the understanding of a CF greater than Archer... he'll be able to do so. btw, isnt the ability to erase concepts also being able to erase prana? or simply have Aoko use the 5th on his body and "job done!" people now focus on Ryougi only because KnK release wasnt a failure. -Existance>Origin-. Roa played with the origins, that way regaining his powers ( a.k.a "SERPENT OF AKASHA"). if the problem is surviving even after all this, recall Shiki (nanaya) becomes similar to Dead Apostle in Ciel's ending making it possible to do so in the future (satsujinki) so yes, he CAN survive anyways. |
| "Got it?this is what it means to kill things" |
| It's the other way around. Existence is created from the origin. Without an origin there's no existence. So Ryougi's way of killing is still superior. Also the Primate Murder is still a being staying constantly in one time while the Heroic Spirits aren't they're everywhere in time at once. That's quite a difference. Also as I said even if he can kill a Servant which he might learn sooner or later it means just a suicide for him as the prana forming the Heroic Spirit would loose it's controlled form and explode as a huge bomb. That's why even Ryougi can't defeat the Servants. |
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willyvereb said: It's the other way around. Existence is created from the origin. Without an origin there's no existence. So Ryougi's way of killing is still superior. Also the Primate Murder is still a being staying constantly in one time while the Heroic Spirits aren't they're everywhere in time at once. That's quite a difference. Also as I said even if he can kill a Servant which he might learn sooner or later it means just a suicide for him as the prana forming the Heroic Spirit would loose it's controlled form and explode as a huge bomb. That's why even Ryougi can't defeat the Servants. Me and others have want to ask something... prana bomb? was there one when Berserker aws kiled? ( he pratically dissolved in air) Rider was killed and no bomb...that was Excalibur against Bellerophon, If Archer ( UBW route) had died, RIn and Shirou would've died... so i dont understand what you mean by "explode as a huge bomb" ... Heracles' Fart would be more dangerous( and it is) Caster was killed by Gilgamesh(saber route)....no explosion, True Assasin killed by Kotomine...he appears alive fighting Shirou near Angra Manyu... In all this cases..no explosion or high breeze. Therefore, statement has no value. Existance Perception>Origin Perseption, for the fact of being able to see Points and not just lines; by eliminating the Existance, one must not deal with other selves of the one against; Kinoko Nasu stated long ago that the Nanayas were the Demon Hunters Association's Ace, there best weapon, so Nanayas>Ryougis; If possible later on, Origin's origin cant be seen through itself as a beggining, but by the Existance of itself as something. So in the extreme and in battle, Existance=> Origin. P.S. please state when has a prana-bomb due to an heroic spirit's Death ash been triggered in case i am wrong to correct my statement. |
| "Got it?this is what it means to kill things" |
Nasuversepro said: Kinoko Nasu stated long ago that the Nanayas were the Demon Hunters Association's Ace, there best weapon, so Nanayas>Ryougis So? What does this have to do with anything? None of the clans previously had a user with the mystic eyes of death perception. Concept ">" existence. Existence ">" concept. But hey, look, their eyes work different. Meant for different things. Ryougi Shiki's eyes are to kill concepts, Nanaya Shiki's eyes are for homicide. If anything, Ryougi Shiki would have a "higher chance" of being able to kill a servant than Nanaya Shiki or Satsujinki due to the fact that she can kill concepts. Why even go on with this anyways, they wouldn't be able to keep up with a servant anyhow, so it's just pointless. Also most of what I've been reading here now is just a bunch of bullshit fan speculation. I can't believe I wasted my time on this. |
| Tohno Shiki/Nanaya/satsujinki can also "kill" concepts... Shirou fought with Servants. and he is practically weaker than both of them ( Shikis) btw, in the discussion, add Len to the situation; Shiki (Nanaya/tohno) has a familiar, capable of aiding in combat/tactics. |
| "Got it?this is what it means to kill things" |
Nasuversepro said: Tohno Shiki/Nanaya/satsujinki can also "kill" concepts... Not on the same level as Ryougi Shiki, for reason already stated. Shirou's ability is different, and really, he's the main character. I've never seen anything stating that he's weaker than the Shikis either, speculation because he's stupid? And what do you think Len would be able to do in a situation such as fighting a servant? Not a shit. There was nothing to discuss in the first place either. Come back when Nasu has written Tsukihime 2, released a book, whatever, and is clearly stating that any of these characters are capable of fighting a servant. |
Taken from the matome site - these are all from official interviews with Kinoko from Comptiq, Dengeki Hime, or Techgian. Q. In the other Type-Moon works, who else besides Arc can fight against Servants? A. If we're working on the condition of one on one, with an extremely average Noble Phantasm. Generally most of the 27 Ancestors, Kishima Kouma, Aozaki Aoko. If it's just a defensive fight, but would still be a fight, then Ciel. Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants....but Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel class. From Degenki Hime 8 Melty Blood volume 1 Nasu comments "At this point, "MELTY BLOOD" caused a major contradiction. Since this was a fighting game, the position of the protagonist, Tohno Shiki, a character that could participate in combat only by means of trump cards, was reversed, and he became involved in the story as a protagonist that can "fight normally". "....Right. The characteristics of the characters in "MELTY BLOOD" had either been exaggerated or restrained from what they had been in Tsukihime." "Using cards as an example, Shiki of Tsukihime would be a 3 of Hearts. But the Shiki of "MELTY BLOOD" would be able to fight normally as a Jack of Spades." If that doesn't end it then i don't know what will. Protagonist Enhancement > any magic, noble phantasm, spiritual entity, etc., etc. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| There, new enhancements make it possible; hail MELTY BLOOD. also, Tsukihime 2 is no speculation... it has been announced since Tsukihime was released ( one of bad ends) and Kagetsu Tohya. Len puts master in check and slows down with frost. that is enough for me or Satsujinki . If you were to kill ARcher via Origin, kill SHirou too!, kill via existance, no archer AND shirou wont be archer in the future.. :D UBW route would be happy with that. |
| "Got it?this is what it means to kill things" |
Nasuversepro said: There, new enhancements make it possible; hail MELTY BLOOD. also, Tsukihime 2 is no speculation... it has been announced since Tsukihime was released ( one of bad ends) and Kagetsu Tohya. Len puts master in check and slows down with frost. that is enough for me or Satsujinki . If you were to kill ARcher via Origin, kill SHirou too!, kill via existance, no archer AND shirou wont be archer in the future.. :D UBW route would be happy with that. ... I... （ ´_ゝ｀） |
Nasuversepro said: Tohno Shiki/Nanaya/satsujinki can also "kill" concepts... Shirou fought with Servants. and he is practically weaker than both of them ( Shikis) btw, in the discussion, add Len to the situation; Shiki (Nanaya/tohno) has a familiar, capable of aiding in combat/tactics. And he failed miserably every single time when the mentioned Servants were serious. And to add Shirous body a little bit inhuman thanks to his UBW and reinforcement magic he usually applies on himself. And perhaps he gains the memory of the weapons hes tracing which a bit makes up for his lack of skill. To bring up: Shiki had no chance even a half-serious Ciel in Tsukihime. And Ciel is a way weaker than a Servant. And also I know no example of where Nanaya killed a concept. I dont question hes able to but for him is a way too exhausting to do. Ryougi meanwhile has no handicaps at using her MEoDP. Also the prana-bomb thing came from Nasu's answer to the MEoDP vs Servant debate. I can't find the source though. Can someone link it to me? |
| |
Nasuversepro said: k-kakkoiiii...There, new enhancements make it possible; hail MELTY BLOOD. also, Tsukihime 2 is no speculation... it has been announced since Tsukihime was released ( one of bad ends) and Kagetsu Tohya. Len puts master in check and slows down with frost. that is enough for me or Satsujinki . If you were to kill ARcher via Origin, kill SHirou too!, kill via existance, no archer AND shirou wont be archer in the future.. :D UBW route would be happy with that. |
| Prana bomb's concept can be deleted by Satsujinki since he understands mana/prana since ...somewhat around 2 years ago (he's timeline) Exhaustion has been lifted up by becoming a Dead Apostle( future and/or Ciel's ending), therefore Satsujinki/Shikivampire>Ciel Ryougi has non-organic body parts, but non-human organic body parts are better, so physical capacity of Satsujinki/vampiere Nanaya surpasses it. Shiki as vampire :the demon hunter having vampire powers from Crimson moon reincarnation>Zeltrech. |
| "Got it?this is what it means to kill things" |
| What the fuck are you talking about |
| @Sobzob:Half-backed Shiki-ganking of course:) To answer Nasuversepro:Shiki isn't omnsentinent to do something like that. Sure if he has enough information regarding the prana-bomb accident after the MEoDP death of a Servant he can do something about it(with thick enough plot armor, extreme enough luck etc...) BUT that kind of thing is rather strange and nexpected to anyone. Prana explosion happens because erasure of the Servant's existence not neccessary means the erasure of the prana forming it. This is a theory of mine. Also Satsujinki isn't a vampire, but still a human most probably. He might have drank a bit of Arc's blood though. And Satsujinki>Zelretch? Seriously...I don't even know why I comment this. Probably because this is such a seriously wrong statement maybe... |
| |
| about the zeltrech thing...yeah i got a bit excited didn't I? ( >.> ) well, the thing is that nasu stated the prana-bomb occuring due to MEoDP, doesn't it mean that it is possible for Shiki ( both ?) to kill Servants? that would mean the answer to the Topic would be Affirmative, Shiki can surely/maybe/difficultly kill a servant Regarding Nanaya drinking Brunestud's blood, would'nt a new category of "Vampires"( a similar situation appears in Vampire Knight) for those not bitten, but drank blood from one... and one of the most powerful. wouldn't the conclusion be: Yes, Shiki can kill vampires regarding what could happen next since not enough information is given to know the survival of Shiki |
| "Got it?this is what it means to kill things" |
| willyvereb, if you're planning to reply to him again you don't have to bother. He's banned now. ～(￣∇￣～) |
| Well, actually I didn't.:) I think we discussed this long enough. Is it possible to lock a topic on MAL? I think this topic would deserve it. We discussed it long enough though I think it would be a pity to delete this. |
| |
| Welll, actually every single Servant's speed is well over the speed a human can achieve. Shiki's speed equals about to a D class there in Agility. Though high Agility stat not neccessary means high speed as we saw with True Assassin(still, utterly inhuman. About 70km/h) But compared to Rider who can run at rough terrain with about 100m/s(360km/h) And their skill in fighting is a way over even Nanaya Shiki's. Cutting lines requires extreme precision. Even if a theoretical vampire Shiki would be able to catch up with the Servants in terms of physical abilities it's still highly dubious if he ver suceed cutting even one of those lines on them. And perhaps there's the issue of "prana-bomb". To conclude: Can Shiki kill Servants? Yes as he may be able to harm them, but: Can Shiki defeat Servants? No, absolutely not. Even if by some extreme luck and plot armor he/she manages to kill them the aftereffects would mark this deed as a complete suicide. |
willyverebJan 5, 2010 12:29 AM
| |
| Well, about defeating appears so many intresting ways to-do. If to speak not about heroic spirits, but about servants in Holy Grail War, he got plently enought ways of defeating them. As first, he could cut exsitence of the connections of the servants to theyr masters, wich will appear in lost of mana supply aswell as need to form new contract. As second, he can cut theyr connection to grail, wich also made them dissappear. Understand conception of link to grail and to master isn't too hard, I guess. Yet, this keep two questions. First, where are those lines. Second, how do he will know about it. |
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| Yeah. And he would die before he can notice that certain Ley Line. Remember how close he was to death when he tried to "kill" the poison inside Kohaku. Also even if can( as Satsujinki or R.Shiki) there's the question that where he should aim with his knife. Where's located that certain connection? With +rd personality R.Shiki it isn't much of a problem though. But even if he/she manages to cut that connection the Servants still have 2 whole hours at least to find a new master and also to kill Shiki. So your idea isn't wrong but far from a solution. Shiki still can't defeat Servants. |
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| That line, if exsist, most likely will be on master... Near comman spell, most likely. So it'll be faster to kill master. However, it still mean he can defeat them. Even if it is with a price of his own life. But what about the one that binds them to grail? I mean Great Grail, the one in cavern. Without such binding it'll be extrimely hard to preserve them in the world, even with a powerfull master. And that line most likely will be not on a servant, but in that very cavern. So as long as he understand it (someone have to tell him, I guess), and get his way to the cavern, he can swiftly end grail war. Nya? |
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| Again exhaustion and also all those require extreme knowledge of the Grail War. Where he gets it? The only ones having such knowledge are Zelretch, the Einzberns, Zouken, Kotomine and Avenger. Out of those the only cooperative one could be Zelretch, but knowing his habits and how rare for him to appear I doubt that too. If they have such knowledge it shouldn't be much problem to do it anyways. Also it still would only make them unstable like they would loose their masters. They can stay for 2 hours the very least, not to mention I doubt the Grail would remain unguarded. Not to mention the strain he would suffer to complete such thing(R.Shiki is other thing but she has no connection with Zelretch so...) Anyways all those methods are indirect so it shouldn't be said he defeated them. Shiki just cheated that way. In combat he's mincemeat against them. Shiki has less chance against a Servant than Shirou. That's why he's the protagonist of FSN instead of Shiki:p |
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| I don't doubt that. But it is said that everything good at war and love.)) Not to mention that some servants can't win without that kind of cheating, like caster or assassin. In simple combat one-to-one he have no chances. Not even a weapon to hit them... |
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| Theoreticaly, Shiki could kill servants.. he can see the death of things,even the death of souls like they are.. Even if the souls are summoned through time, he can see them, touch them, so why not just KILL them? *Clash* *Splat* ===> no soul, over finished gone forever |
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| Theoreticaly, Shiki could kill servants.. he can see the death of things,even the death of souls like they are.. Even if the souls are summoned through time, he can see them, touch them, so why not just KILL them? *Clash* *Splat* ===> no soul, over finished gone forever |
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| Problem lies that he must understand exsistance of heroic spirit to be able to see lines. Means killing one body will erase them from all time+every parallel world. That's simply too much. No humand mind is able to do so. However, if he is able to do so, by some miracle, then he really can do so... If put a hand on something that can hit spirits. As servants is spirits - they can't be harmed by his knife. So he also need some kind of weapon. In teory - it is possable, but chances of happening so is like one to number-of-people-ever-lived-in-the-world. Oh, but we also should assume that there is infinity numbers of worlds... So... |
DarkDeedJan 31, 2010 1:36 AM
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| Anniversary of this thread. \o/ |
| it ended with discuss Fate VS Tsukuhime... |
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