| Shirou vs Kirei? It was my favorite part of the entire VN, and was the main reason I was so looking forward to this adaptation for so long. Yet this movie version made the battle feel so underwhelming. Less buildup to the fight itself, Kirei's ideology wasn't as fleshed out, the best of Shirou's inner monologues didn't happen, all of which is understandable due to the format and time constraints but it's still disappointing. Not to mention how other aspects of the fight were changed, and also that awkward cut back to the final moment. Light and Darkness OST not being used made me sad as well. Honestly Rider vs Saber Alter seems like the highlight of this adaptation, with the real final battle being more of an afterthought in comparison. |
| Yeah this movie didn't do the VN justice, though I don't blame it all on ufotable. I feel that some parts of F/SN just wouldn't work in anime form, like when Shirou uses nine lives blade works or the final battle, since they're so heavily reliant on inner monologues that would feel awkward in a movie. But there are some things I DO 100% blame the adaptation for, like cutting out Ilya and Kirei's screentime made the final battle much less exciting. |
| I dont know why people expected Kirei vs Shirou to be a big fight when in the VN it was just Kirei beating Shirou till he run out of juice. It is just that with Shirou screaming twice and unsuccessfully attacking near the end. Sure there is very little for them VN build up or ost but the essence is there. Only real issue is the cut and the official subs(not ufo's fault but anyway). I am also pleased to see that they made the fight more even instead of the one sided beatdown that it was. |
CLADDAN said: Yeah this movie didn't do the VN justice, though I don't blame it all on ufotable. I feel that some parts of F/SN just wouldn't work in anime form, like when Shirou uses nine lives blade works or the final battle, since they're so heavily reliant on inner monologues that would feel awkward in a movie. But there are some things I DO 100% blame the adaptation for, like cutting out Ilya and Kirei's screentime made the final battle much less exciting. Yeah, the rushing and certain changes with the format were to be expected. However I feel most of these aspects could be improved given a bit more time to breathe. At least if there weren't so many fast cuts to different scenes. |
ssjokg said: I dont know why people expected Kirei vs Shirou to be a big fight when in the VN it was just Kirei beating Shirou till he run out of juice. It is just that with Shirou screaming twice and unsuccessfully attacking near the end. Sure there is very little for them VN build up or ost but the essence is there. Only real issue is the cut and the official subs(not ufo's fault but anyway). I am also pleased to see that they made the fight more even instead of the one sided beatdown that it was. The one-sided beatdown made sense. Kirei clearly outmatched Shirou in physical skill, and the VN didn't sugarcoat that fact. Part of what made the battle so interesting in the VN was Shirou's fight against time rather than a typical one on one. Also the fact that Shirou had to be more careful about being hit. The adaptation glosses over this stuff for the most part. Similarly the other interesting draw (the dialogues) weren't as engaging. I enjoyed it for what it was, but in the back of my mind I know that this part could've been so much more if it was adapted more faithfully. |
Ataccot said: Kirei is also fighting without a heart, was living without one for a day, while Archer's arm elevated Shirou's base abilities, which is why he could jump from the 3rd floor of the castle and barely numb his legs and could keep up with Kirei's speed in the forest.ssjokg said: I dont know why people expected Kirei vs Shirou to be a big fight when in the VN it was just Kirei beating Shirou till he run out of juice. It is just that with Shirou screaming twice and unsuccessfully attacking near the end. Sure there is very little for them VN build up or ost but the essence is there. Only real issue is the cut and the official subs(not ufo's fault but anyway). I am also pleased to see that they made the fight more even instead of the one sided beatdown that it was. The one-sided beatdown made sense. Kirei clearly outmatched Shirou in physical skill, and the VN didn't sugarcoat that fact. Part of what made the battle so interesting in the VN was Shirou's fight against time rather than a typical one on one. Also the fact that Shirou had to be more careful about being hit. The adaptation glosses over this stuff for the most part. Similarly the other interesting draw (the dialogues) weren't as engaging. I enjoyed it for what it was, but in the back of my mind I know that this part could've been so much more if it was adapted more faithfully. Kirei was also fighting against time. Kirei vs Shirou isnt meant to be the final big fight, like Kiritsugu vs Kirei was. But even so, even in the movie the fight is more thematically engaging that Zero's last fight where two strangers fought with no understanding of each other. I would love to see Shirou's last Sakura flashback before he counter attacks but I cant say I am disappointed with what I got. |
ssjokg said: Ataccot said: Kirei is also fighting without a heart, was living without one for a day, while Archer's arm elevated Shirou's base abilities, which is why he could jump from the 3rd floor of the castle and barely numb his legs and could keep up with Kirei's speed in the forest.The one-sided beatdown made sense. Kirei clearly outmatched Shirou in physical skill, and the VN didn't sugarcoat that fact. Part of what made the battle so interesting in the VN was Shirou's fight against time rather than a typical one on one. Also the fact that Shirou had to be more careful about being hit. The adaptation glosses over this stuff for the most part. Similarly the other interesting draw (the dialogues) weren't as engaging. I enjoyed it for what it was, but in the back of my mind I know that this part could've been so much more if it was adapted more faithfully. Kirei was also fighting against time. Kirei vs Shirou isnt meant to be the final big fight, like Kiritsugu vs Kirei was. But even so, even in the movie the fight is more thematically engaging that Zero's last fight where two strangers fought with no understanding of each other. I would love to see Shirou's last Sakura flashback before he counter attacks but I cant say I am disappointed with what I got. I'm aware of the details, but I still appreciated the way it was handled in the VN as opposed to the adaptation. We can chalk this up to a matter of preference. I agree with you that the fight is better than Zero's thematically though, despite this movie version lacking in some ways. |
| You can't put 20 minutes of dialogue and monologue in the freaking movie, unless you want to kill the viewer out of boredom. What matters is making the point of the fight and keeping a relative proportion with the other fights, you can't make this one 10 min long and SAlter vs Rider 6 min. Anything else than the main point are extras. I don't think the fight is perfect (nothing is), but it's still my favorite fight. |
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| I didn't read the LN and still thought it was weird the way they handled that specially because a decade ago ufotable made history with the Kirei vs Kiritsugu fight so you would think they would've tried to top themselves |
| I'm not a vn reader but everyone was hyping up the fight beforehand so I can see why |
 ManWild |
Rojaseb said: Kirei vs Kiritsugu was a fight in the novel. And if we are talking as an adaptation, Kirei and Kiritsugu fought among flames so Ufotable clearly undersold it!(along with other little details like Kirei directly PUNCHING a bullet instead of trying to slap it away).I didn't read the LN and still thought it was weird the way they handled that specially because a decade ago ufotable made history with the Kirei vs Kiritsugu fight so you would think they would've tried to top themselves In the VN HF the "fight" is Kirei beating the shit out of Shirou till he died on his own. Some fans were hyping the "fight" for no reason. As a fight, it was a lot better in the movie with Shirou actually being able to fight back and at least hurt Kirei once or twice. |
| I personally think that some people are kinda missing the point of the fight. What makes this fight good is not Shirou screaming "Kotomine Kirei!" or Kirei beating down Shirou, or the myriad of monologues and dialogue. What makes this fight good are things like: -Two man that could die in any second firmly fighting for what they had been living for and believing in, up until the very end of their lives. (hence Kirei dies with a smile) -Mutually accepting each other and realizing that they are both very similar beings who are desperately trying to find a meaning for their lives in order to achieve happiness. -On a war based on superpowered servants fighting each other with magic that could even destroy entire cities, the final fight relays on two servantless masters fighting to death with no magic, only their bare fists and physical abilities, for the most human desire possible. -And lastly being the opposite of "Kiritsugu vs Kirei". In that fight they don't say a single word, they reject each other's way of living and they use all kinds of powers, magic and dirty tricks (Avalon+Guns+Mystic code+Time manipulation magic+Origin bullets+other hidden weapons, against Bajiquan+lots of hidden Black Keys+Kevlar coat+superhuman strength and senses+Executioner abilities+Command seals). While in "Shirou vs Kirei" as I said, is the exact opposite; they talk during the entire fight, they understand and accept each other, no magic, no tricks, only pure determination. All those things are what make Shirou vs Kirei peak fiction, and all of them were nailed in the movie. It's still not perfect, but I couldn't be any happier with it. For the OST, both work perfectly for their respective version, movie and VN. To finish off, I respect if someone doesn't like how it was adapted, but remember that you don't need to choose one version, this is not like Warcraft 3 Reforged, where the original was taken down by Blizzard, so if you don't like the remastered then you are fucked. |
Karnox001Apr 18, 2021 4:20 PM
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| Things I appreciate from the movie version •The fight being more even which helps with Shirou's agency and adds a layer of extra entertainment. •Adding their dialogue mid fight. It helps so that the pacing doesn't get broken up by a 10 minute long discussion beforehand. Things it should've done better •Flesh out Kirei's point a bit more clearly. He doesn't just want the world to burn but to have some affirmation about why he was born. I feel this point gets misconstrued by first time watchers. •Kirei's martial arts. This is why there is a skill gap between him and Shirou. I know I said I enjoyed an even match but it still bothers me that they couldn't integrate this part of the battle. • The fight ends anticlimactically. It doesn't have to be 1:1 with the VN but there's a clear progression of stakes in the VN fight. You see Shirou driven by his sole motivation being Sakura, which pushes him to fight back one more time. It's high octane, hype and satisfying before Kirei's heart gives out. The anime just... cuts away from that. If you compare every major fight in HF, Shirou vs Kirei is the shortest at about 5 minutes while stuff like Saber vs Berserker or Rider etc is 7-9 minutes. |
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Karnox001 said: I personally think that some people are kinda missing the point of the fight. What makes this fight good is not Shirou screaming "Kotomine Kirei!" or Kirei beating down Shirou, or the myriad of monologues and dialogue. What makes this fight good are things like: -Two man that could die in any second firmly fighting for what they had been living for and believing in, up until the very end of their lives. (hence Kirei dies with a smile) -Mutually accepting each other and realizing that they are both very similar beings who are desperately trying to find a meaning for their lives in order to achieve happiness. -On a war based on superpowered servants fighting each other with magic that could even destroy entire cities, the final fight relays on two servantless masters fighting to death with no magic, only their bare fists and physical abilities, for the most human desire possible. -And lastly being the opposite of "Kiritsugu vs Kirei". In that fight they don't say a single word, they reject each other's way of living and they use all kinds of powers, magic and dirty tricks (Avalon+Guns+Mystic code+Time manipulation magic+Origin bullets+other hidden weapons, against Bajiquan+lots of hidden Black Keys+Kevlar coat+superhuman strength and senses+Executioner abilities+Command seals). While in "Shirou vs Kirei" as I said, is the exact opposite; they talk during the entire fight, they understand and accept each other, no magic, no tricks, only pure determination. All those things are what make Shirou vs Kirei peak fiction, and all of them were nailed in the movie. It's still not perfect, but I couldn't be any happier with it. For the OST, both work perfectly for their respective version, movie and VN. To finish off, I respect if someone doesn't like how it was adapted, but remember that you don't need to choose one version, this is not like Warcraft 3 Reforged, where the original was taken down by Blizzard, so if you don't like the remastered then you are fucked. I respect your opinion. It's similar to what ssjokg posted about the essence still being there. But while the main ideas are there, I wish they wouldn't have been addressed so briefly, leaving viewers to piece together their importance with limited elaboration. I imagine anime-onlys would have more trouble understanding the significance of this part as things were quite rushed. If nothing else though, the movies are fine as an extra for VN readers in the sense of getting to enjoy some nice visuals and animation, even if the plot itself wasn't adapted the best it could've been. On the other end, the pure anime watchers can enjoy it while not knowing about all the little extras (although I've seen quite a few of them confused about the ending due to the way it was structured). |
Emblemz said: Things I appreciate from the movie version •The fight being more even which helps with Shirou's agency and adds a layer of extra entertainment. •Adding their dialogue mid fight. It helps so that the pacing doesn't get broken up by a 10 minute long discussion beforehand. Things it should've done better •Flesh out Kirei's point a bit more clearly. He doesn't just want the world to burn but to have some affirmation about why he was born. I feel this point gets misconstrued by first time watchers. •Kirei's martial arts. This is why there is a skill gap between him and Shirou. I know I said I enjoyed an even match but it still bothers me that they couldn't integrate this part of the battle. • The fight ends anticlimactically. It doesn't have to be 1:1 with the VN but there's a clear progression of stakes in the VN fight. You see Shirou driven by his sole motivation being Sakura, which pushes him to fight back one more time. It's high octane, hype and satisfying before Kirei's heart gives out. The anime just... cuts away from that. If you compare every major fight in HF, Shirou vs Kirei is the shortest at about 5 minutes while stuff like Saber vs Berserker or Rider etc is 7-9 minutes. Agree with most of these points. Of course there's a need to try and optimize the flow of the story in movie format, so it's inevitable for details to be left out. It just would've been nice if there was a better balance of detail, like those you mentioned, and a smooth flow. Some of the cuts in the movie are pretty jarring with how fast the pacing is. |
Ataccot said: I'm still confused why none of the BD for the movies have extended scenes. You'd think they'd want to boost their already great sales. I know they've deleted some scenes based on several trailersEmblemz said: Things I appreciate from the movie version •The fight being more even which helps with Shirou's agency and adds a layer of extra entertainment. •Adding their dialogue mid fight. It helps so that the pacing doesn't get broken up by a 10 minute long discussion beforehand. Things it should've done better •Flesh out Kirei's point a bit more clearly. He doesn't just want the world to burn but to have some affirmation about why he was born. I feel this point gets misconstrued by first time watchers. •Kirei's martial arts. This is why there is a skill gap between him and Shirou. I know I said I enjoyed an even match but it still bothers me that they couldn't integrate this part of the battle. • The fight ends anticlimactically. It doesn't have to be 1:1 with the VN but there's a clear progression of stakes in the VN fight. You see Shirou driven by his sole motivation being Sakura, which pushes him to fight back one more time. It's high octane, hype and satisfying before Kirei's heart gives out. The anime just... cuts away from that. If you compare every major fight in HF, Shirou vs Kirei is the shortest at about 5 minutes while stuff like Saber vs Berserker or Rider etc is 7-9 minutes. Agree with most of these points. Of course there's a need to try and optimize the flow of the story in movie format, so it's inevitable for details to be left out. It just would've been nice if there was a better balance of detail, like those you mentioned, and a smooth flow. Some of the cuts in the movie are pretty jarring with how fast the pacing is. |
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| Yes, it was very disappointing. All Kirei's fights in Fate/Zero are much better than Kirei vs Shirou in this movie, even though it's my favourite one in the visual novel. I dare say that just the animation of Kirei destroying that Caster's skeleton in Unlimited Blade Works alone is a lot more entertaining than the whole Kirei vs Shirou fight in this movie. I liked how Ufotable animated Kirei's fight against assassin and Zouken, though. Although it's also not as satisfying as its visual novel version, but the animated version really has its own uniquely great aspects too, like how Kirei exorcised Zouken on the cross, which is a very beautiful scene. |
| “Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.” ― Saint Augustine |
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