WW II allegories, interpreting Isayama's story-telling and do AOT fans have to adopt his values & leanings wholesale
Attack on Titan
| Isayama was greatly inspired by a story that could be construed as supportive of Imperial Japan depending on who you ask (whether it actually is or not is a whole other can of worms, though I personally don't think so). Given the controversies involving that one twitter account believed to be Isayama's, I won't deny that he could be an Imperial Japan apologist, though not necessarily a supporter. Japan as a whole leans conservative, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was part of the country's largely right leaning youth. Still, that polygon article linked stretches the text of AOT so much to fit it into their take that I can't help but disregard it. Specially when you consider this was written with 2 years worth of missing context at a time when people were divided on what the fuck was going on with Eren, and whether or not the propaganda against the Eldian empire was actually true. It is a stretch, to say the least, that Isayama would've even been aware of niche western-centric conspiracy theories regarding Jews, or the absolute reach that some titans have large noses = antisemitism lol. Military might is also not fetishized as the be all end all, otherwise the uprising arc would've played out much differently than it did, and Paradis' first impulse upon learning the truth wouldn't have been to pursue diplomacy at all costs. AOT draws from reality like most great works of art, but it plays out more as a cautionary tale than some direct allegory to real world events. There is certainly imagery evocative of real history, but the very conflict of the narrative muddies any attempts at trying to read this as some WW2 allegory or something. Eldians do not work as direct parallels to jews, germanic tribes or the japanese, though they borrow aspects of all of them. Marley is not a direct parallel to Nazi Germany or the Roman Empire, though it also shares elements with both. And so on. Gabi is presented as a parallel to Eren, but at no point does the story state their sins are of equal weight. Her arc is moreso used to illustrate the cycle of hatred, and both characters arrive at different conclusions. Similarly, the story never asserts that Marley's sins were equal to the Eldian empire's or vice-versa. Isayama doesn't want to spoonfeed answers, but rather to present you with a situation and ask you to form your own conclusions. If you deem Gabi to be a less empathetic character than Eren, then that is your opinion, as valid as any other. What the story ultimately does support is the idea that the only thing hatred and blaming accomplishes is the continued perpetuation of the cycle of violence. This only becomes clearer the further we progress into the manga. Someone needs to let go and focus on more constructive solutions at some point. Can this be read as Imperial Japan/Axis power apologia? Perhaps, but at that point you're doing an entirely subjective evaluation of the author's intent. If your opinion of Isayama is so low that the thing you ultimately take from a work like AOT is "there were no villains in WWII", then that is a disservice to everything the story is trying to portray. This sort of extremely ideology-driven literary analysis never sits quite right with me anyway because it often reads more like a string of bad faith stretches than an honest engagement with what the author was trying to tell. I always go in with an open mind and find certain points raised to be interesting, but the conclusions drawn from said point frequently tend to lean on negative assumptions about the writer. It often sits too close to "depiction = endorsement" trains of thought or that certain things should be out of boundaries for art, both views that I will never subscribe to. Still, this is an interesting conversation to have so long as everyone involved can remain civil. |
| Isayama isn't necessarily saying all violence is equal. The way I see it, he's saying that violence breeds more violence. I don't have much concern with the weird views he might have on Japanese history and the general that Pixis is based on either, and I'm saying this as a Chinese person. The way I see it it's similar to the way that Americans justify Reagan despite his handling of AIDS and propping up of fascist leaders overseas or how British people justify Churchill despite the stuff he did to India |
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MAQS said: Also if you wanna use war crimes agaisnt her, know that she cannot and will not be judged fully by commiting those crimes precisely because she is 12 years old. Unlike you, a international court takes into account her age. I am surprised you are a manga reader and still are so hung up on Gabi being a horrible person. But well, at least you are not like some of the others who actually think Eren is justified lol. I don't know man, I think at 12 I was a rational-thinking person. Even if she will not be judged as an adult, in most countries there are systems of justice for juveniles. And putting law aside, just from a human perspective, being able to do what Gabi did and feel no remorse, in fact feel pride (in murdering people by taking advantage of them showing you mercy and compassion)... that requires something quite twisted in your inherent character I'd say. |
nakkki said: ShanAsuna said: Hmm... how incredibly open-minded of you... spoken as if there is one true interpretation to be had.. and I suppose you read every other post in this thread as being one harmonious opinion? What a sophisticated and layered interpretation... Just in case you can't read the irony, no one in this thread is in complete agreement, there are many different views here and different justifications for them. Even when the views appear similar, the degree of their "approval" of said view differs (it ranges from approval-neutrality-apathy-disapproval, and even that's oversimplifying it). If all you want to do is to ask people to cut the discussion, why did you join the discussion in the first place when you're clearly disinterested? To gain the last word even when you're not even saying anything of substance? Does that give you some sort of weird satisfaction? A sense of self-importance? And I'm not going to pretend this is a friendly response, like your weirdly passive aggressive "Good day" "wonderful life" nonsense. I guess passive aggressiveness makes you feel self-important as well? *smh* Wasn't trying to be passive aggressive on any way but I'll delete what I said now since it did set you off somehow Hmm, that's not an apology and it suggests I'm overreacting because "for some [unknown] reason" I was "set off"... yea, this is a form of passive aggression too. "I mean, I didn't do anything wrong but you seem to be mad (for no reason) so I'll take it back because I'm the bigger person" - that's technically what you're saying. Does it make you feel like a bigger person? Sorry it doesn't look that way to me. |
GoZha said: Isayama isn't necessarily saying all violence is equal. The way I see it, he's saying that violence breeds more violence. I don't have much concern with the weird views he might have on Japanese history and the general that Pixis is based on either, and I'm saying this as a Chinese person. The way I see it it's similar to the way that Americans justify Reagan despite his handling of AIDS and propping up of fascist leaders overseas or how British people justify Churchill despite the stuff he did to India Well, I can't say Isayama's views are right or wrong.. because on these big moral/philosophical questions, who amongst us have got a right to make that call, right? I'm just saying I'm not buying his viewpoint (if I'm interpreting it correctly) wholesale even though I'm a fan of AOT. I may agree with his broader themes like violence breeds more violence, but if there are nuances of Imperialist-Japan apologist position (which others have argued they might not be there and I'm over-reading, which is entirely possible as I've acknowledged earlier) then I wouldn't agree with those views. |
ShanAsuna said: I also definitely wouldn't agree with imperial Japan apologism but I don't see it in Isayama's work. If it's there then I think a lot can be chalked up to "natural" favorable bias towards one's own countryGoZha said: Isayama isn't necessarily saying all violence is equal. The way I see it, he's saying that violence breeds more violence. I don't have much concern with the weird views he might have on Japanese history and the general that Pixis is based on either, and I'm saying this as a Chinese person. The way I see it it's similar to the way that Americans justify Reagan despite his handling of AIDS and propping up of fascist leaders overseas or how British people justify Churchill despite the stuff he did to India Well, I can't say Isayama's views are right or wrong.. because on these big moral/philosophical questions, who amongst us have got a right to make that call, right? I'm just saying I'm not buying his viewpoint (if I'm interpreting it correctly) wholesale even though I'm a fan of AOT. I may agree with his broader themes like violence breeds more violence, but if there are nuances of Imperialist-Japan apologist position (which others have argued they might not be there and I'm over-reading, which is entirely possible as I've acknowledged earlier) then I wouldn't agree with those views. |
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