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Feb 9, 2023 9:04 PM
#1
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Jan 2017
4
Do you guys think that it was better for the story for the MC to be an undead and hence not be influenced by humanly desires, or would it have been better for him to be human and yet still be able to fight through his carnal wishes and overcome every battle.
Feb 9, 2023 9:10 PM
#2

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Feb 2017
1140
Whichever way the author wrote it, we would still have doubts or what if scenarios about the MC. That being said, him being an undead is what brought him friends in the first place since he was bullied by other alive characters in the game. Also, him being an undead led to losing his human desires and emotions over time which helped him stay calm in situations as the absolute ruler of Nazarick, thereby commanding the respect of his servants. He treats all his subordinates as his and his friends' children so it would be bad if he had lust towards Albedo or Shalltear and struggled with it. So for this story, it's better that he was undead.
Best ending line in anime history = "My name is Saiki Kusuo. I am a psychic."
Feb 9, 2023 10:16 PM
#3
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Jan 2023
18
Yes, I think it's better that way, otherwise it would be a bit boring. It is kind of more interesting then.
Feb 9, 2023 10:53 PM
#4
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Feb 2023
4
If he was human it would be a lot less interesting:

1. Making him an undead improves the "universe" of the game
2. If he was just a random human it would be boring. It makes the anime more special and he's more stylish like that.
3. It is pleasant to watch an anime about an undead after a lot of animes with only humans
4. The reactions of the humans when they see his actual face, and discover that he's an undead !
Feb 10, 2023 12:15 AM
#5
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Apr 2022
1535
Well, I think Overlord could have been amazing but the MC genuinely had zero moral compass, or rather a really juvenile and warped sense of justice that would make a middle schooler blush. If everything could be as simple as “whoever is the most powerful deserves to determine what is true justice” then Hitler was not wrong for what he was trying to do, but that’s an insane notion. If Ainz was human perhaps he wouldn’t just try and bully people to do his bidding but try and create a complex government full of nuance. And before people try and justify what Ainz is doing, there’s no justification for literally torturing people for items. That’s just deranged and if you truly believe that is justified then let’s see you be the first volunteers to join the happy farms.
Feb 10, 2023 2:04 AM
#6
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Feb 2022
78
i personally don't like ainz and that he is using being undead as a excuse to kill people on a whim.
but i guess for this anime it makes sense, so it is easier to not use our sense of morality in his world because he is no longer human.
Feb 10, 2023 3:07 AM
#7
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Sep 2021
659
He does evil things because it's what his people expect from him.

Everyone of his subordinates (Albedo, Seba Stian, Shalltear, etc.) are evil and don't have much redeeming qualities. They were programmed/designed that way.

And Ainz just follows their expectations.
If they want and expect evil deeds from him, then that's what they get.
He does it that way because firstly so that his subordinates don't suspect him ((for being too human, so they don't question their loyalty towards him (even if they still can't do anything about it), and the fact that he was once a human himself,etc.))

And secondly because that way he can explore the world their in, (possibly) find other gamers who are castaway like him, and maybe even someday find a way out.

And to answer OPs question: Yes it is a good thing.
Maybe he can't feel human emotions anymore or have sympathy and empathy for others but every evil deed he does is only because of the things I mentioned above.
He could technically stop doing evil and morally questionable things but he doesn't because it has only advantages for him.
Loaf_dontcareFeb 10, 2023 3:13 AM
Feb 10, 2023 3:48 AM
#8
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Aug 2022
8
I think that Ainz is a great character but in my opinion is the show a bit boring because he is too op. It would have been more interesting if Ainz actually came across an enemy who could match his power level. Instead, he defeats every enemy with ease, which is fun in the beginning but gets old after a while.
(Just my opinion)
Feb 10, 2023 4:55 AM
#9
Offline
Feb 2021
39
I always thought it would have been interesting to see what sort of inner struggles Ainz would have had if he had stronger human emotions.
But I don't think that's the point of Overlord. I'm not 100% certain what the purpose is, but it's not to psychologly evaluate a tyrant who never wanted that position.

So yeah. Lord Ainz being undead is the better option.
Feb 10, 2023 5:01 AM
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Jun 2016
105
hash-sama said:
Do you guys think that it was better for the story for the MC to be an undead and hence not be influenced by humanly desires, or would it have been better for him to be human and yet still be able to fight through his carnal wishes and overcome every battle.

i mean writing aside: Ainz has hella memorable character design, if he was human it woulda been another generic stuck in game “isekai” with scrawny geek with black/dark brown hair. I’d take bone monster over dork any day even if the writing could have been better (which thread seems to agree it’s not the case: bone boy wins all around)
Feb 10, 2023 5:24 AM
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Feb 2021
39
thunderkitten13 said:
Well, I think Overlord could have been amazing but the MC genuinely had zero moral compass, or rather a really juvenile and warped sense of justice that would make a middle schooler blush. If everything could be as simple as “whoever is the most powerful deserves to determine what is true justice” then Hitler was not wrong for what he was trying to do, but that’s an insane notion. If Ainz was human perhaps he wouldn’t just try and bully people to do his bidding but try and create a complex government full of nuance. And before people try and justify what Ainz is doing, there’s no justification for literally torturing people for items. That’s just deranged and if you truly believe that is justified then let’s see you be the first volunteers to join the happy farms.

I'm pretty sure the list of people who geninely support the idea of happy farms is limited to Kanye West. At most, you'll find dumbasses like me who find it fun to eagerly support Nazarick's conquest of the fictional world. The important part there is ficitonal.

There's a reason Overlord spends so much time developing characters who we know will eventually be consumed by the overwhelming force known as Ainz. We're suppost to root for the lizardmen, Renne Village, Climb and friends. We want to see how they survive or maybe escape Nazarick's clutches.
Of course, most stories end in tragedy, but that happens to be one of my favourite tags so.

Anyway. That's just how I enjoy watching Overlord so much.
Feb 10, 2023 8:50 AM
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Apr 2022
1535
EliteWarrior910 said:
thunderkitten13 said:
Well, I think Overlord could have been amazing but the MC genuinely had zero moral compass, or rather a really juvenile and warped sense of justice that would make a middle schooler blush. If everything could be as simple as “whoever is the most powerful deserves to determine what is true justice” then Hitler was not wrong for what he was trying to do, but that’s an insane notion. If Ainz was human perhaps he wouldn’t just try and bully people to do his bidding but try and create a complex government full of nuance. And before people try and justify what Ainz is doing, there’s no justification for literally torturing people for items. That’s just deranged and if you truly believe that is justified then let’s see you be the first volunteers to join the happy farms.

I'm pretty sure the list of people who geninely support the idea of happy farms is limited to Kanye West. At most, you'll find dumbasses like me who find it fun to eagerly support Nazarick's conquest of the fictional world. The important part there is ficitonal.

There's a reason Overlord spends so much time developing characters who we know will eventually be consumed by the overwhelming force known as Ainz. We're suppost to root for the lizardmen, Renne Village, Climb and friends. We want to see how they survive or maybe escape Nazarick's clutches.
Of course, most stories end in tragedy, but that happens to be one of my favourite tags so.

Anyway. That's just how I enjoy watching Overlord so much.

Yes, I mean the story boils down to a typical isekai power fantasy with the twist being it has dark fantasy elements. But I can’t help but think it could’ve been so much better. The author themselves seems to be getting bored of writing it anyways, so I don’t even think they knew how to really capitalize on their own premise. I’m not saying anyone is bad for liking it, it’s just hard not to imagine the potential that was wasted.
Feb 10, 2023 9:06 AM
Offline
Apr 2021
125
thunderkitten13 said:
Well, I think Overlord could have been amazing but the MC genuinely had zero moral compass, or rather a really juvenile and warped sense of justice that would make a middle schooler blush. If everything could be as simple as “whoever is the most powerful deserves to determine what is true justice” then Hitler was not wrong for what he was trying to do, but that’s an insane notion. If Ainz was human perhaps he wouldn’t just try and bully people to do his bidding but try and create a complex government full of nuance. And before people try and justify what Ainz is doing, there’s no justification for literally torturing people for items. That’s just deranged and if you truly believe that is justified then let’s see you be the first volunteers to join the happy farms.

ok, Karen calm down.

1. It's a Fictional Fantasy, NOBODY is supporting mass genocide, the fact your comparing a story meant to entertain to Hitler, you must be a Karen of Karens.

2. read art of war, romance of three kingdoms, and the prince, if you really want to argue whether Aniz a great ruler or not.

3. Aniz doesn't even know what's happening 75% of the time, it's his UNDEAD/MONSTER subordinates that keep misinterpreting and making all these plans. he's just going along with.
Feb 10, 2023 9:30 AM
Offline
Apr 2022
1535
kalebsmoker said:
thunderkitten13 said:
Well, I think Overlord could have been amazing but the MC genuinely had zero moral compass, or rather a really juvenile and warped sense of justice that would make a middle schooler blush. If everything could be as simple as “whoever is the most powerful deserves to determine what is true justice” then Hitler was not wrong for what he was trying to do, but that’s an insane notion. If Ainz was human perhaps he wouldn’t just try and bully people to do his bidding but try and create a complex government full of nuance. And before people try and justify what Ainz is doing, there’s no justification for literally torturing people for items. That’s just deranged and if you truly believe that is justified then let’s see you be the first volunteers to join the happy farms.

ok, Karen calm down.

1. It's a Fictional Fantasy, NOBODY is supporting mass genocide, the fact your comparing a story meant to entertain to Hitler, you must be a Karen of Karens.

2. read art of war, romance of three kingdoms, and the prince, if you really want to argue whether Aniz a great ruler or not.

3. Aniz doesn't even know what's happening 75% of the time, it's his UNDEAD/MONSTER subordinates that keep misinterpreting and making all these plans. he's just going along with.

1. This point makes zero sense. You judge a story based on reason and logic regardless if it is a fictional story or not, but the point of the thread is to question if Ainz would be a more interesting character if he was human and dealt with things through his emotional
compass. Not only is he super strong but he doesn’t even feel pain, so how can you really become invested in the long term with a character that never loses and doesn’t even express a high degree of complex emotions.

2. You don’t need to read ancient books to determine if someone is a good leader or not. Would you tell people in Soviet Russia to read those books as they are dying of hunger in work camps? Would you tell that the villagers who are being raided by Genghis Khan as he butchers the men and children and takes the women as slaves? The quality of rule is determined by the quality of life of the people, the extent of their freedom in all aspects, and the means in which all of these are maintained. Going around and killing whoever opposes you is not indicative of a good ruler, and active oppression of your political enemies destroys the voice of a portion of your people. For all the things Ainz is doing well as far as ruling is concerned, he’s doing ten times as much evil as that. He orchestrated whole massacres just to play the charade of his hero persona. He refuses to reel in his subordinates and their evil activities, essentially allowing them to terrorize the people. He chooses who is worthy of his help and salvation rather than helping everyone and everyone. The problem isn’t that he’s not doing enough. He’s literally an active threat to everyone’s freedom in the New World. That’s not a sign of good rule.

3. This point is just immature. If a parent’s son or daughter is caught killing a bunch of people’s pets, who is responsible then? The child? No, it is obviously the parent. Ainz isn’t a moron. He knows exactly the moral alignment of everyone at Nazarick. He should know that if he’s not seeing Demiruge acting upon is urge for malice in front of him, then obviously Demiurge is up to something behind the scenes. There’s zero excuse for him to not order them to have complete transparency. He doesn’t because he doesn’t care, which makes him a terrible ruler. And again…going along with murder is still being complicit. If you’re arrested with someone murdering someone else…you’ll literally get charged with accessory! Like you come and insult me/attack me on a thread that’s literally about whether Ainz would be more interesting if he was human and not just a monotonous undead drone that has zero capacity for complex emotions doesn’t solve everything by bonking people on the head with a big stick. It’s not like I even dislike Overlord, but there’s plenty to be critical of, and if you don’t like it then nobody is forcing you to read it unlike in Overlord where people are led like pigs to slaughter but then brought back to life just to be tortured again. Please, tell me how the happy farms are justified, if you really think Ainz is a good ruler. Will you volunteer with your family to be a part of the happy farms?
Feb 18, 2023 3:46 PM
Offline
Sep 2014
5
thunderkitten13 said:
kalebsmoker said:

ok, Karen calm down.

1. It's a Fictional Fantasy, NOBODY  is  supporting mass genocide,  the fact your comparing a story meant to entertain to Hitler,  you must be a Karen of Karens.

2. read art of war, romance of three kingdoms, and the prince, if you really want to argue whether Aniz a great ruler or not.

3. Aniz doesn't even know what's happening 75% of the time, it's his UNDEAD/MONSTER subordinates that keep misinterpreting and making all these plans. he's just going along with.

1. This point makes zero sense. You judge a story based on reason and logic regardless if it is a fictional story or not, but the point of the thread is to question if Ainz would be a more interesting character if he was human and dealt with things through his emotional
compass. Not only is he super strong but he doesn’t even feel pain, so how can you really become invested in the long term with a character that never loses and doesn’t even express a high degree of complex emotions.

2. You don’t need to read ancient books to determine if someone is a good leader or not. Would you tell people in Soviet Russia to read those books as they are dying of hunger in work camps? Would you tell that the villagers who are being raided by Genghis Khan as he butchers the men and children and takes the women as slaves? The quality of rule is determined by the quality of life of the people, the extent of their freedom in all aspects, and the means in which all of these are maintained. Going around and killing whoever opposes you is not indicative of a good ruler, and active oppression of your political enemies destroys the voice of a portion of your people. For all the things Ainz is doing well as far as ruling is concerned, he’s doing ten times as much evil as that. He orchestrated whole massacres just to play the charade of his hero persona. He refuses to reel in his subordinates and their evil activities, essentially allowing them to terrorize the people. He chooses who is worthy of his help and salvation rather than helping everyone and everyone. The problem isn’t that he’s not doing enough. He’s literally an active threat to everyone’s freedom in the New World. That’s not a sign of good rule.

3. This point is just immature. If a parent’s son or daughter is caught killing a bunch of people’s pets, who is responsible then? The child? No, it is obviously the parent. Ainz isn’t a moron. He knows exactly the moral alignment of everyone at Nazarick. He should know that if he’s not seeing Demiruge acting upon is urge for malice in front of him, then obviously Demiurge is up to something behind the scenes. There’s zero excuse for him to not order them to have complete transparency. He doesn’t because he doesn’t care, which makes him a terrible ruler. And again…going along with murder is still being complicit. If you’re arrested with someone murdering someone else…you’ll literally get charged with accessory! Like you come and insult me/attack me on a thread that’s literally about whether Ainz would be more interesting if he was human and not just a monotonous undead drone that has zero capacity for complex emotions doesn’t solve everything by bonking people on the head with a big stick. It’s not like I even dislike Overlord, but there’s plenty to be critical of, and if you don’t like it then nobody is forcing you to read it unlike in Overlord where people are led like pigs to slaughter but then brought back to life just to be tortured again. Please, tell me how the happy farms are justified, if you really think Ainz is a good ruler. Will you volunteer with your family to be a part of the happy farms?

thunderkitten13

1: Just because you judge a story based on YOUR reason and logic, doesn't mean everyone else has to.  Also painting everything in "happy" or "washed-out heroic" tones is boring.  Also, you completely missed how Ainz develops throughout the story.  
2: Again you're basing your argument on your beliefs.  But let us be clear, his people (Nazarick) are happy (regardless of the fact that there is programming guiding it), his kingdom is prosperous, he delegates when he should and takes care of things himself when he should.  As far as I am concerned, he's doing good.  I mean, he really didn't have to save the village nor did he have to let anyone live.  Albeit, the choices led to one of the most disappointingly hilarious twists with the meeting of the armies on Katze plains (baaaaaaaaaa xD).

3: Your counter was immature.  Kalebsmoker hit the nail on the head.   It is literally the interpretations his subordinates make that make the story what it is and how Ainz reacts.  And when you combine it with how Ainz's personality develops, it fits very well.

And that leads to what everyone fails to understand or remember... If you don't agree with it... that's your prerogative... I would just recommend that you begin to develop the ability to quit inserting your morals and beliefs into a fictional worlds that clearly don't align. 

But to answer the original post...
If Ainz were human, the story would've probably been a drawn out adventure with Ainz exploring the world searching for clues of whether or not there are other people from Earth.  His adventures would have probably resulted in Momon being the mainstay of the series, or you would've seen him mentally collapse into either hiding in Nazarick forever, or into his undead persona and exacting revenge against those that attack/slander/whatever.

Ainz being undead led to the human personality being slowly influenced by the Overlord's desire for power, death, and protecting his own.  The fact that his human side flares up still creates an extremely interesting, anti-hero protagonist.  It was clearly spelled out in the series, he cares deeply about what he and his friends built and created and will do anything to protect and avenge them.
Feb 18, 2023 6:25 PM
Offline
Apr 2022
1535
Koors said:
thunderkitten13 said:

1. This point makes zero sense. You judge a story based on reason and logic regardless if it is a fictional story or not, but the point of the thread is to question if Ainz would be a more interesting character if he was human and dealt with things through his emotional
compass. Not only is he super strong but he doesn’t even feel pain, so how can you really become invested in the long term with a character that never loses and doesn’t even express a high degree of complex emotions.

2. You don’t need to read ancient books to determine if someone is a good leader or not. Would you tell people in Soviet Russia to read those books as they are dying of hunger in work camps? Would you tell that the villagers who are being raided by Genghis Khan as he butchers the men and children and takes the women as slaves? The quality of rule is determined by the quality of life of the people, the extent of their freedom in all aspects, and the means in which all of these are maintained. Going around and killing whoever opposes you is not indicative of a good ruler, and active oppression of your political enemies destroys the voice of a portion of your people. For all the things Ainz is doing well as far as ruling is concerned, he’s doing ten times as much evil as that. He orchestrated whole massacres just to play the charade of his hero persona. He refuses to reel in his subordinates and their evil activities, essentially allowing them to terrorize the people. He chooses who is worthy of his help and salvation rather than helping everyone and everyone. The problem isn’t that he’s not doing enough. He’s literally an active threat to everyone’s freedom in the New World. That’s not a sign of good rule.

3. This point is just immature. If a parent’s son or daughter is caught killing a bunch of people’s pets, who is responsible then? The child? No, it is obviously the parent. Ainz isn’t a moron. He knows exactly the moral alignment of everyone at Nazarick. He should know that if he’s not seeing Demiruge acting upon is urge for malice in front of him, then obviously Demiurge is up to something behind the scenes. There’s zero excuse for him to not order them to have complete transparency. He doesn’t because he doesn’t care, which makes him a terrible ruler. And again…going along with murder is still being complicit. If you’re arrested with someone murdering someone else…you’ll literally get charged with accessory! Like you come and insult me/attack me on a thread that’s literally about whether Ainz would be more interesting if he was human and not just a monotonous undead drone that has zero capacity for complex emotions doesn’t solve everything by bonking people on the head with a big stick. It’s not like I even dislike Overlord, but there’s plenty to be critical of, and if you don’t like it then nobody is forcing you to read it unlike in Overlord where people are led like pigs to slaughter but then brought back to life just to be tortured again. Please, tell me how the happy farms are justified, if you really think Ainz is a good ruler. Will you volunteer with your family to be a part of the happy farms?

thunderkitten13

1: Just because you judge a story based on YOUR reason and logic, doesn't mean everyone else has to.  Also painting everything in "happy" or "washed-out heroic" tones is boring.  Also, you completely missed how Ainz develops throughout the story.  
2: Again you're basing your argument on your beliefs.  But let us be clear, his people (Nazarick) are happy (regardless of the fact that there is programming guiding it), his kingdom is prosperous, he delegates when he should and takes care of things himself when he should.  As far as I am concerned, he's doing good.  I mean, he really didn't have to save the village nor did he have to let anyone live.  Albeit, the choices led to one of the most disappointingly hilarious twists with the meeting of the armies on Katze plains (baaaaaaaaaa xD).

3: Your counter was immature.  Kalebsmoker hit the nail on the head.   It is literally the interpretations his subordinates make that make the story what it is and how Ainz reacts.  And when you combine it with how Ainz's personality develops, it fits very well.

And that leads to what everyone fails to understand or remember... If you don't agree with it... that's your prerogative... I would just recommend that you begin to develop the ability to quit inserting your morals and beliefs into a fictional worlds that clearly don't align. 

But to answer the original post...
If Ainz were human, the story would've probably been a drawn out adventure with Ainz exploring the world searching for clues of whether or not there are other people from Earth.  His adventures would have probably resulted in Momon being the mainstay of the series, or you would've seen him mentally collapse into either hiding in Nazarick forever, or into his undead persona and exacting revenge against those that attack/slander/whatever.

Ainz being undead led to the human personality being slowly influenced by the Overlord's desire for power, death, and protecting his own.  The fact that his human side flares up still creates an extremely interesting, anti-hero protagonist.  It was clearly spelled out in the series, he cares deeply about what he and his friends built and created and will do anything to protect and avenge them.

1: No, I am not basing this off my logic or reason, there’s something called objective reasoning and logic that exists in the school of academia, and this is the best way to determine if a story makes sense or not. We are not talking about suspending disbelief, we are talking about whether a situation is objectively sound or not. For example, Ainz committing mass genocide to use them as an example to the other people on earth. This move is ridiculous by Ainz, because at that point he is just made out to be the villain of everyone. If he’s willing to slaughter innocents and royals alike, he could care less about anyone outside of that kingdom too. No one is safe. The whole argument was started by the question: would Ainz be a more interesting character if he was human. This is because as an Overlord, he is a one dimensional character! He only is self-serving, only wants to grow his own empire, only desires to bend other people to his will. This is a juvenile fantasy. This is like if in every hero vs demon king story, there is no hero to battle the villain. It is BORING, and also makes zero sense because people will resist until the end. This is like making a story about being under the rule of North Korea with fantasy elements, it doesn’t change the inherent fact that the story is stale and repetitive. Using logic and reason to question the legitimacy of Ainz’s plan is not a matter of subjectivity until you reach conclusions that can be asserted as claims, which I did. If you want to get even more technical, by the logic and reasoning of the New World, Ainz is proven wrong because he is being resisted. If he was in the right he wouldn’t need to be shady and a tyrant that uses force on people. It is because people are unwilling to submit that he has to resort to violence. And this is the major point, if you say his kingdom is so grand, what does it mean for the people that had to be murdered to build it? The happy farms, the mass genocide, the fallen heroes. What is their worth? What makes Ainz’s worth more valuable? Because he is stopping corruption and bringing peace? Why can’t he do that without indiscriminate murder? Because he doesn’t even care about the people in the force place. It is because he is a one dimensional villain! And that is what objectively makes him boring if the forces against him are so weak to the degree that nothing poses a threat to him. At that point…the story has no force of conflict. It’s a villain slice of life.

2. I already went over this in point 1, but you do not only judge the presoperity of a single nation to judge whether that way of governing is good. Ainz rules without any care for the well being or independence of other nations. He only seeks people that will submit to him. He is an active opponent of every other nation which are either forced to trade or actively avoid him. A good nation has open ties with almost every nation, including their opposition. This promotes trade and the spread of innovative ideas, and also helps deter stagnation. This is why nations that have open borders that invite trade and cukture prosper. Ainz merely strips nations of their identity, and makes them become is subordinates. And again, the people don’t respect Ainz and actively resist him if they can. And one more thing: how are the happy farms/mass torture justified? Are you going to submit your family to the farms to help sustain Ainz’s nation? Why not? What makes one person exempt of this fate, or rather what makes one more deserving? Such a fate is exceptionally cruel, and can hardly be excused or justified, even with all the positives of what Ainz has presented. But the thing is Ainz as a character is an overpowered undead that has no weaknesses, and only does “right” in his eyes and the eyes of his followers. He is just typical power fantasy MC that happens to be evil.

3. I don’t think you understand why I used the word immature. And what you said doesn’t even fit what was being responded to initially, so it’s really confusing. My point was: Ainz is responsible for the actions of his soldiers. He isn’t a fool, so he should be able to resist whatever is occurring, but he doesn’t due to an exaggerated sense of affection for video game characters that aren’t real. At least, he should realize why he shouldn’t allow them to do whatever they want. We must realize that when Ainz was teleported, he came into a real world where they feel and die the same as people from his reality. The fact he doesn’t have a moral compass so he can have moments of inner conflict that could present interesting and stimulating questions is why Overlord is just a lore heavy story but lacks a lot of substance. Ainz as a human would’ve made things way more interesting. He doesn’t even have to bear the image of a human, but have an inner avatar that comes out when something is happening that makes him question his humanity. It seems like he is just an Overlord ai at this point, except with the occasional human thoughts.

And finally, all of what you said in the end about Ainz being an interesting anti-hero would’ve been valid if there was anything that could contend with Ainz’s philosophy. That is the essence of the story: conflict. But if Nazarick is impenetrable and Ainz a super powered and invincible character, it’s not at all interesting or memorable.

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