Attack on Titan
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Mar 11, 2022 7:58 AM
#101
Nitroade24h said: I understand that she's outweighing the the 2 situations. But both situations are genocide. So yes, he reasoning isn't flawed, but her "Genocide is bad" makes her look like a stupid kid. That's why people are memeing the shit out of her.Daximus15 said: I think you’re missing a key part there. Eren chose to become a devil in order to live, Hange chose not to become a devil but to do that Eldians have to die. Nitroade24h said: I do not understand why so many people in the aot fandom cannot fathom somebody disagreeing with mass genocide. Yes, that’s her argument in a nutshell, and that’s because her conscience outweighs her strive for freedom and she will not commit atrocities for the sake of freedom. Because Paradis is on the brink of being executed too. So genocide is bad, but not when Paradis is the one being wiped? Paradis can't defend against the full Marleyan force without the Founding titan. It's a life or death situation for Paradis, Eren chose to live, Hange chose death. Genocide is bad regardless of who does it, but Hange recognises that there is a greater chance of stopping Eren’s genocide without the deaths of millions than to stop the entire rest of the world without the genocide of the Rumbling. However, Marley and the rest of the are also at war with each other. Outweighing the number of deaths would mean nothing if Marley got their hands on the founding titan, because they'll do exactly what Eren is doing. So Hange joining Marley forces to stop Eren is hypocritical. Both are willing to commit genocide. |
Mar 11, 2022 8:58 AM
#102
| [quote=zerotitan message=65891044] TheFounder131 said: racers551 said: TheFounder131 said: Agreed, genocide is wrong? ok, but you are going help those people who were abt to genocide you. yeah cause they weren't like hange who did nothing to find out solution for paradise. If hange had any kind of answer to the questions then my support would have been went to hange but no. Since you are very wise and have very deep understanding of AOT story, situation and its characters and since you are calling out Hange for not having a solution, should I assume you have a solution? An indisputable and absolute solution that would stop Eren from going full genocide route, that would also prevent Historia from being sacrificed and would have ended conflict? You have all the knowledge which even Hange or any other character (except Eren ) do not have, it should be perhaps even easier for you to arrive at realistic solution. Please tell us the grand scheme, I am all ears. It's not that hard. If Eren cared about paradis over his friends, he would have gone with the 50 year plan. That alone would have worked. |
Mar 11, 2022 8:59 AM
#103
| [quote=racers551 message=65891056] zerotitan said: TheFounder131 said: racers551 said: TheFounder131 said: Agreed, genocide is wrong? ok, but you are going help those people who were abt to genocide you. yeah cause they weren't like hange who did nothing to find out solution for paradise. If hange had any kind of answer to the questions then my support would have been went to hange but no. Since you are very wise and have very deep understanding of AOT story, situation and its characters and since you are calling out Hange for not having a solution, should I assume you have a solution? An indisputable and absolute solution that would stop Eren from going full genocide route, that would also prevent Historia from being sacrificed and would have ended conflict? You have all the knowledge which even Hange or any other character (except Eren ) do not have, it should be perhaps even easier for you to arrive at realistic solution. Please tell us the grand scheme, I am all ears. It's not that hard. If Eren cared about paradis over his friends, he would have gone with the 50 year plan. That alone would have worked. Actually I was trying to reply the Founder guy and not you and messed with the quotes. I was asking him only what is his solution since he is calling out Hange on that issue. |
Mar 11, 2022 9:02 AM
#104
TheFounder131 said: racers551 said: TheFounder131 said: Agreed, genocide is wrong? ok, but you are going help those people who were abt to genocide you. The dialogues could have been better written. Hange here was acting like an Karen, you can't argue with logical point so you shout to stfu him who was actually giving logical points. Not to mention, none of the guys would have supported a genocide to protect their homeland. yeah cause they weren't like hange who did nothing to find out solution for paradise. If hange had any kind of answer to the questions then my support would have been went to hange but no. Since you are very wise and have very deep understanding of AOT story, situation and its characters and since you are calling out Hange for not having a solution, should I assume you have a solution? An indisputable and absolute solution that would stop Eren from going full genocide route, that would also prevent Historia from being sacrificed and would have ended conflict? You have all the knowledge which even Hange or any other character (except Eren ) do not have, it should be perhaps even easier for you to arrive at realistic solution. Please tell us the grand scheme, I am all ears. |
Mar 11, 2022 9:31 AM
#105
Daximus15 said: but her "Genocide is bad" makes her look like a stupid kid. That's why people are memeing the shit out of her. The author did her dirty. As a scientist her character's supposed to come up with something with more depth rather than getting rebuked by jean. Outweighing the number of deaths would mean nothing if Marley got their hands on the founding titan, because they'll do exactly what Eren is doing. well, it may not be "exactly". Marley can afford to go the Imperialism route with some genocides instead of full genocide since she is big country unlike Paradis. |
kensionMar 11, 2022 9:38 AM
Mar 11, 2022 9:58 AM
#106
kension said: True, not exactly Eren route. But still pretty inhumane.Daximus15 said: but her "Genocide is bad" makes her look like a stupid kid. That's why people are memeing the shit out of her. The author did her dirty. As a scientist her character's supposed to come up with something with more depth rather than getting rebuked by jean. Outweighing the number of deaths would mean nothing if Marley got their hands on the founding titan, because they'll do exactly what Eren is doing. well, it may not be "exactly". Marley can afford to go the Imperialism route with some genocides instead of full genocide since she is big country unlike Paradis. The author did indeed do Hange dirty. |
Mar 11, 2022 10:18 AM
#107
Daximus15 said: Nitroade24h said: I understand that she's outweighing the the 2 situations. But both situations are genocide. So yes, he reasoning isn't flawed, but her "Genocide is bad" makes her look like a stupid kid. That's why people are memeing the shit out of her.Daximus15 said: Nitroade24h said: I do not understand why so many people in the aot fandom cannot fathom somebody disagreeing with mass genocide. Yes, that’s her argument in a nutshell, and that’s because her conscience outweighs her strive for freedom and she will not commit atrocities for the sake of freedom. Because Paradis is on the brink of being executed too. So genocide is bad, but not when Paradis is the one being wiped? Paradis can't defend against the full Marleyan force without the Founding titan. It's a life or death situation for Paradis, Eren chose to live, Hange chose death. Genocide is bad regardless of who does it, but Hange recognises that there is a greater chance of stopping Eren’s genocide without the deaths of millions than to stop the entire rest of the world without the genocide of the Rumbling. However, Marley and the rest of the are also at war with each other. Outweighing the number of deaths would mean nothing if Marley got their hands on the founding titan, because they'll do exactly what Eren is doing. So Hange joining Marley forces to stop Eren is hypocritical. Both are willing to commit genocide. I would say it just makes her look like a principled person who isn't willing to allow Eren to kill billions of people. She simply doesn't want him to commit genocide, I think it makes perfect sense given that all her life she worked as a scout who's goal was to simply save humanity(a job that allows a pretty clear conscience at the time). Now yes she doesn't really have an alternative although Armin's 50 year plan does kind of exist but I don't think its insane to think that a character who spent their entirely life thinking they were defending humanity against unsentient monsters wouldn't be able to stomach allowing Eren to kill billions of human beings on her behalf. |
Mar 11, 2022 10:34 AM
#108
Sigmar-Unberogen said: nomnomdotcom said: Eren fully realizes that Jews/Germans are at the end of the day just your average humans. He has full power to create new world order. Total annihilation is dumb, lazy, illogical and can never be justified or excused here; especially when Eren achieved total "nuclear" monopoly and can force the world into submission without turning it into a desolate wasteland and massacre of millions of innocents who can change their POV about "Jews" in time; just like Gabi for instance. Sigmar-Unberogen said: It amazes how people support genocide using "Input excuse X". Most of these clowns usually imagine themselves as Eldians on the island. In other words, they support genocide because they imagine themselves as the winners and survivors, instead of victims. In other words, they refuse to put themselves in the shoes of millions or innocent people Eren is about to trample to death. We're not talking about Nuking Japan twice to force them to surrender - kind of scenario. We're talking about nuking Japan over and over again, until the last Japanese is dead! - This is precisely what Eren is doing here and I don't see how anyone in their right mind would say it's perfectly fine or justifiable. Because if attack on Titan was real and there was an island that inhabited a group of people that were hated, abused, and held responsible for crimes they themselves didn't commit, it's understandable to see why given the opportunity to bite back they might do it. Imagine an alternate universe where Germany wins the world war. The majority of the Jewish population ends up on an island. Those that don't are treated worse than animals. This goes on for years meanwhile they are still trying to be completely snuffed out. All of a sudden they acquire a weapon that can destroy all of their enemies and oppressors and save themselves. Can you blame them for using it? No not really. You're talking about willing submission to have your people totally annihilated. There's no real winner it's about survival. The innocent are always the ones that suffer from war. Plenty of people sat by and let the powers that be commit genocide on a group of people hence guilty by association. It's the scale of the massacre that's messing with your head, but it is understandable. Although I agree Eren committing genocide against the world is wrong I also think you aren't giving him enough credit. You are forgetting that so long as the rest of the world exists all it would take is someone getting their hands on the founding titan who isn't on the side of Paradis, or marleyan technology being strong enough to free them from the threat of the rumbling and Paradis would be destroyed, basically they can delay the threat but they can never be "free." Its in that that Eren's deeper motivations are revealed, beyond protecting his friends which is mainly just what Eren uses to justify the rumbling the real reason he wants it so much is because he wants "freedom" the deterministic nature of AOT's world functions as chains that force the characters to do things they don't want to do and keep them living in fear just like the walls that protected them from the titans. What Eren really wants to do is destroy the world outside the walls in the niave belief that then he would finally be free just like what he thought he would be when he followed a childish goal of eliminating all the titans back in the first 3 seasons. Eren initiating the rumbling only seems illogical if you misunderstand what his driving motivations are. |
Mar 11, 2022 10:45 AM
#109
timeforward said: nomnomdotcom said: Sigmar-Unberogen said: It amazes how people support genocide using "Input excuse X". Most of these clowns usually imagine themselves as Eldians on the island. In other words, they support genocide because they imagine themselves as the winners and survivors, instead of victims. In other words, they refuse to put themselves in the shoes of millions or innocent people Eren is about to trample to death. We're not talking about Nuking Japan twice to force them to surrender - kind of scenario. We're talking about nuking Japan over and over again, until the last Japanese is dead! - This is precisely what Eren is doing here and I don't see how anyone in their right mind would say it's perfectly fine or justifiable. Because if attack on Titan was real and there was an island that inhabited a group of people that were hated, abused, and held responsible for crimes they themselves didn't commit, it's understandable to see why given the opportunity to bite back they might do it. Imagine an alternate universe where Germany wins the world war. The majority of the Jewish population ends up on an island. Those that don't are treated worse than animals. This goes on for years meanwhile they are still trying to be completely snuffed out. All of a sudden they acquire a weapon that can destroy all of their enemies and oppressors and save themselves. Can you blame them for using it? No not really. You're talking about willing submission to have your people totally annihilated. There's no real winner it's about survival. The innocent are always the ones that suffer from war. Plenty of people sat by and let the powers that be commit genocide on a group of people hence guilty by association. It's the scale of the massacre that's messing with your head, but it is understandable. Not to be too heavily political, but your real world example unfortunately fails the test to be in your favor, as in fact jews in an isolated place (like an Island), faced several wars for their annihilation which apparently they ended without killing every single person in their opposition. Just a quote from the Arab League Secretary-General Azzam opposition for Israel in the 1947 war, "I personally wish that the Jews do not drive us to this war, as this will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades" - Sounds familiar? This kind of rhetoric was quite regular, and yet they didn't have to massacre every Palestinian heck every Arab to end the wars... So your example works exactly in the opposite of your argument. Genocide was however carried out many times in history, basically never defensively strangely enough, but I question heavily it could ever be an only solution as some people tend to think. I think the reason why genocide is never used defensively is because the losing side never has the power to commit genocide and once they do they are no longer the losing side. What makes the founding titan unique is that it alone can turn the tables but it is only a temporary solution, thus it isn't a great deterrent but it is a way to truly "free" the paradisians so to speak, and because the rest of the world is so technologically advanced anything less than total annihilation would ultimately just delay the problem. I don't think any group in history has been as univerally hated as the Eldians although you can find some parallels with the slavs, jews, hungarians, carthiginians, and many other groups at different times throughout history.Anyway, if someone like Stalin had the ability to initiate the rumbling in 1942 when the entirely slavic people were fighting a losing war of annihalation against Nazi Germany he would probably have used it at the very least on the nazis. I would argue that AOT is very historically realistic with the titan curse being the one fantasy element that allows the story to progress differently than real history does. |
Mar 11, 2022 10:09 PM
#110
PresE2PayRespect said: Fuhrer_Wrath said: Chapter 139.5 doesn't really prove anything though. It doesn't confirm the full scope of what happened nor does it show the cause of it. It just shows once city. That's it. There's no way to infer that what happened, happened because Eren didn't complete the Rumbling. Also, like I said Paradis had a lot if options before the Rumbling. After the Rumbling, obviously the worlds sentiment would be much harsher than before. Look at the conversation with Muller. The guy and his men more than likely know about the Warriors (since they are Marley's biggest weapons) and could've seen that they were fighting the Founder and the worm from fort Salta. Yet when he ordered his men to get ready to shoot, no one questioned a thing Now imagine that but without Armin's talknojutsu. That's what happened in other countries. And Paradis might've had a slight chance before, but not after Liberio. Most of the world was likely against it. Russia isn't like that. Just before that Muller had actively tried to help the Marleyan Eldians. And even stopped his men from shooting them. Yes he held them at gun point because he was scared. I mean I don't blame him, an army of Collosal Titans was about to crush him. But the main point is despite having no reason to not shoot the Eldians, he didn't. He asked them to prove the can't turn into Titans. He willing to reason and listen. That was the point of the ending. Everything didn't get miraculously solved. And there wasn't peace created out of nowhere. But for the first time both sides were willing to listen to eachother. And who's fault was Liberio? And even then there nations like Azumabito who were willing to form diplomatic relations with Paradis. And other nations that were under the subjugation of Marley would have sided with Paradis too. And while most of the world might not be against Russia. Majority of Europe and USA are against it. Russia does feel threatened. And uses that threat to justify it's actions. Kind of like the Yeagerists. |
Mar 11, 2022 10:14 PM
#111
| Both Genocide and Global warming is wrong. I don't see any problem there 🗿 |
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Mar 11, 2022 11:05 PM
#112
Fuhrer_Wrath said: PresE2PayRespect said: Fuhrer_Wrath said: Chapter 139.5 doesn't really prove anything though. It doesn't confirm the full scope of what happened nor does it show the cause of it. It just shows once city. That's it. There's no way to infer that what happened, happened because Eren didn't complete the Rumbling. Also, like I said Paradis had a lot if options before the Rumbling. After the Rumbling, obviously the worlds sentiment would be much harsher than before. Look at the conversation with Muller. The guy and his men more than likely know about the Warriors (since they are Marley's biggest weapons) and could've seen that they were fighting the Founder and the worm from fort Salta. Yet when he ordered his men to get ready to shoot, no one questioned a thing Now imagine that but without Armin's talknojutsu. That's what happened in other countries. And Paradis might've had a slight chance before, but not after Liberio. Most of the world was likely against it. Russia isn't like that. Just before that Muller had actively tried to help the Marleyan Eldians. And even stopped his men from shooting them. Yes he held them at gun point because he was scared. I mean I don't blame him, an army of Collosal Titans was about to crush him. But the main point is despite having no reason to not shoot the Eldians, he didn't. He asked them to prove the can't turn into Titans. He willing to reason and listen. That was the point of the ending. Everything didn't get miraculously solved. And there wasn't peace created out of nowhere. But for the first time both sides were willing to listen to eachother. And who's fault was Liberio? And even then there nations like Azumabito who were willing to form diplomatic relations with Paradis. And other nations that were under the subjugation of Marley would have sided with Paradis too. And while most of the world might not be against Russia. Majority of Europe and USA are against it. Russia does feel threatened. And uses that threat to justify it's actions. Kind of like the Yeagerists. He had his men point guns at a Warrior they watched fighting for them and only gave them the signal to put down the weapons as Armin, apparently the only one able to talk, walked in. Without Armin, people from the rest of the world wouldn't be willing to talk after a short while. As you've said, Marley declared war on Paradis. Liberio was Eren's response to that. Most of the world united as a result of his attack. Paradis/Eren is not the aggressor. Hizuru was there for Paradis' resources and as stated before, Marley likely had troops stationed at their colonies. With the limited control Eren has over the colossals, it doesn't sound feasible to only attack areas with troops. Russia is the aggressor. It has backing from allies. It has nuclear weapons. The equivalent of that in AoT would be Paradis announcing war on the most of world first, with multiple countries already on it's side and an army with numbers, technology and weapons equivalent to Marley. That's not the case, which is why the comparison is bad. |
Mar 11, 2022 11:17 PM
#113
Fuhrer_Wrath said: PresE2PayRespect said: Fuhrer_Wrath said: Chapter 139.5 doesn't really prove anything though. It doesn't confirm the full scope of what happened nor does it show the cause of it. It just shows once city. That's it. There's no way to infer that what happened, happened because Eren didn't complete the Rumbling. Also, like I said Paradis had a lot if options before the Rumbling. After the Rumbling, obviously the worlds sentiment would be much harsher than before. Look at the conversation with Muller. The guy and his men more than likely know about the Warriors (since they are Marley's biggest weapons) and could've seen that they were fighting the Founder and the worm from fort Salta. Yet when he ordered his men to get ready to shoot, no one questioned a thing Now imagine that but without Armin's talknojutsu. That's what happened in other countries. And Paradis might've had a slight chance before, but not after Liberio. Most of the world was likely against it. Russia isn't like that. Just before that Muller had actively tried to help the Marleyan Eldians. And even stopped his men from shooting them. Yes he held them at gun point because he was scared. I mean I don't blame him, an army of Collosal Titans was about to crush him. But the main point is despite having no reason to not shoot the Eldians, he didn't. He asked them to prove the can't turn into Titans. He willing to reason and listen. That was the point of the ending. Everything didn't get miraculously solved. And there wasn't peace created out of nowhere. But for the first time both sides were willing to listen to eachother. And who's fault was Liberio? And even then there nations like Azumabito who were willing to form diplomatic relations with Paradis. And other nations that were under the subjugation of Marley would have sided with Paradis too. And while most of the world might not be against Russia. Majority of Europe and USA are against it. Russia does feel threatened. And uses that threat to justify it's actions. Kind of like the Yeagerists. You cant simply put Yeagerist and compare it with real life things. It just cant. First of all, "Majority of Europe and USA are against it" why? Is that because economy? Is that because treaty about wars in Geneva? Is that because USA and Europe wanted peace? Or they just dont want to get shitted in process as collateral? There are a lot of motives in politics that led to many conclusions. Your logic is flawed if you already set a moral standard when we're talking about practical politic in streets, this is not even the most cruel doings. Ever heard about Truman Doctrine? These fella never wanted peace, but using peace to cover up their true intentions that some of them remains unknown to public. - Why USA helps Israeli Forces for the conflict not Palestinians that has less power ever since 1948? - Why USA messes up Middle East especially in Bush and Obama regime? - Why Indonesia military handles Timor Timur with such cruelty? - Why USA smokes Vietnam? Theyre using similar reasons to justify their actions, like literally everyone that knows about Machiavelli, not just Russia/North Korea/China or those so-called evil by World War 2 victors. Using threat as justifications for such actions in war is reasonable, but the question is what actions you do in process? Now this is something that differs AoT world and real life. What law bounds characters in AoT that limits you to tell "Oh this shit is too extra" other than each characters morale that was hinted obvious enough? It was none, right? That's what Isayama lackin on worldbuilding, if only he tells something that indeed stated that genocide is wrong in AoT world, Alliances would get more support and it makes Yeagerist total villain, but there's not. P.S: Even with law of wars and shit, there's still a lot of wars and conflict in the world, idealistic viewpoints only delay the timer. |
Mar 12, 2022 2:15 AM
#114
PresE2PayRespect said: Fuhrer_Wrath said: PresE2PayRespect said: Fuhrer_Wrath said: Chapter 139.5 doesn't really prove anything though. It doesn't confirm the full scope of what happened nor does it show the cause of it. It just shows once city. That's it. There's no way to infer that what happened, happened because Eren didn't complete the Rumbling. Also, like I said Paradis had a lot if options before the Rumbling. After the Rumbling, obviously the worlds sentiment would be much harsher than before. Look at the conversation with Muller. The guy and his men more than likely know about the Warriors (since they are Marley's biggest weapons) and could've seen that they were fighting the Founder and the worm from fort Salta. Yet when he ordered his men to get ready to shoot, no one questioned a thing Now imagine that but without Armin's talknojutsu. That's what happened in other countries. And Paradis might've had a slight chance before, but not after Liberio. Most of the world was likely against it. Russia isn't like that. Just before that Muller had actively tried to help the Marleyan Eldians. And even stopped his men from shooting them. Yes he held them at gun point because he was scared. I mean I don't blame him, an army of Collosal Titans was about to crush him. But the main point is despite having no reason to not shoot the Eldians, he didn't. He asked them to prove the can't turn into Titans. He willing to reason and listen. That was the point of the ending. Everything didn't get miraculously solved. And there wasn't peace created out of nowhere. But for the first time both sides were willing to listen to eachother. And who's fault was Liberio? And even then there nations like Azumabito who were willing to form diplomatic relations with Paradis. And other nations that were under the subjugation of Marley would have sided with Paradis too. And while most of the world might not be against Russia. Majority of Europe and USA are against it. Russia does feel threatened. And uses that threat to justify it's actions. Kind of like the Yeagerists. He had his men point guns at a Warrior they watched fighting for them and only gave them the signal to put down the weapons as Armin, apparently the only one able to talk, walked in. Without Armin, people from the rest of the world wouldn't be willing to talk after a short while. As you've said, Marley declared war on Paradis. Liberio was Eren's response to that. Most of the world united as a result of his attack. Paradis/Eren is not the aggressor. Hizuru was there for Paradis' resources and as stated before, Marley likely had troops stationed at their colonies. With the limited control Eren has over the colossals, it doesn't sound feasible to only attack areas with troops. Russia is the aggressor. It has backing from allies. It has nuclear weapons. The equivalent of that in AoT would be Paradis announcing war on the most of world first, with multiple countries already on it's side and an army with numbers, technology and weapons equivalent to Marley. That's not the case, which is why the comparison is bad. His men are not pointing their guns at the Warriors but the Marleyan Eldians who just a moment ago turned into mindless Titans infront of him. So a little bit of fear or skepticism is justified on his end, I think. And even then he asked them to prove that they won't turn into mindless Titans again instead of attacking them. That shows a lot of willingness toncome to an understanding on his part. And yes Armin was instrumental instrumental in convincing Muller. Because that was literally the point of his character. This showed that yes while the fear still remains, the world is finally willing to listen to Paradis. And with the right strategy the world can be convinced and peace can be achieved. Marley declared war sure. But ambassadors from all over the world were killed. That is not the action of someone who wants peace. Eren was an aggressor towards the embassadors of all the nations who hadn't yet declared war against Paradis. And also what Eren did in liberio was not a war strategy. It was a literal terrorist attack. It took place in a civilian area during a Public event and killed Thousands of innocent civilians. You could justify it with Marley's past actions sure. But from every perspective what Eren did was a display of aggression. And yes the Hizuru wanted access to Paradis natural resources. That's how diplomatic relationships work. And doesn't matter how many troops Marley has in it's colonies. Once the mainland Marley has been destroyed/defeated. The troops in the other colonies would be easily overthrown. Russia's allies are not nearly as many as Nato members nor as powerful. And those allies don't exist in the European theater where the Nato threat exists. Yes Russia has Nuclear weapons and Paradis has The Founder Titan. And again the comparison is not between the exact circumstances of the 2 nations but the justification for their circumstances. Russia is threatened by Nato. And to that end Russia asked again and agin for Ukraine to not be allowed in Nato. And when that was rejected. Russia used this as an excuse to invade Ukraine. Yes Marley declared war on Paradis. But all of the other nations didn't. They had nothing to do with Paradis. And Paradis never even tried to negotiate with them. And the first interaction all the other nations had with Paradis was their ambassadors bieng killed in Libereo. Where once again only Tybur(Marley) declared war. No one else. Eren/Paradis had a lot of options to negotiate with other nations using the Rumbling as a deterrent. Just like Russia has with Nuclear weapons. But Eren chose the most extreme one without even trying a more diplomatic way, with the excuse of national safety, just like Russia. |
Mar 12, 2022 2:36 AM
#115
rach1m4n said: Fuhrer_Wrath said: PresE2PayRespect said: Fuhrer_Wrath said: Chapter 139.5 doesn't really prove anything though. It doesn't confirm the full scope of what happened nor does it show the cause of it. It just shows once city. That's it. There's no way to infer that what happened, happened because Eren didn't complete the Rumbling. Also, like I said Paradis had a lot if options before the Rumbling. After the Rumbling, obviously the worlds sentiment would be much harsher than before. Look at the conversation with Muller. The guy and his men more than likely know about the Warriors (since they are Marley's biggest weapons) and could've seen that they were fighting the Founder and the worm from fort Salta. Yet when he ordered his men to get ready to shoot, no one questioned a thing Now imagine that but without Armin's talknojutsu. That's what happened in other countries. And Paradis might've had a slight chance before, but not after Liberio. Most of the world was likely against it. Russia isn't like that. Just before that Muller had actively tried to help the Marleyan Eldians. And even stopped his men from shooting them. Yes he held them at gun point because he was scared. I mean I don't blame him, an army of Collosal Titans was about to crush him. But the main point is despite having no reason to not shoot the Eldians, he didn't. He asked them to prove the can't turn into Titans. He willing to reason and listen. That was the point of the ending. Everything didn't get miraculously solved. And there wasn't peace created out of nowhere. But for the first time both sides were willing to listen to eachother. And who's fault was Liberio? And even then there nations like Azumabito who were willing to form diplomatic relations with Paradis. And other nations that were under the subjugation of Marley would have sided with Paradis too. And while most of the world might not be against Russia. Majority of Europe and USA are against it. Russia does feel threatened. And uses that threat to justify it's actions. Kind of like the Yeagerists. You cant simply put Yeagerist and compare it with real life things. It just cant. First of all, "Majority of Europe and USA are against it" why? Is that because economy? Is that because treaty about wars in Geneva? Is that because USA and Europe wanted peace? Or they just dont want to get shitted in process as collateral? There are a lot of motives in politics that led to many conclusions. Your logic is flawed if you already set a moral standard when we're talking about practical politic in streets, this is not even the most cruel doings. Ever heard about Truman Doctrine? These fella never wanted peace, but using peace to cover up their true intentions that some of them remains unknown to public. - Why USA helps Israeli Forces for the conflict not Palestinians that has less power ever since 1948? - Why USA messes up Middle East especially in Bush and Obama regime? - Why Indonesia military handles Timor Timur with such cruelty? - Why USA smokes Vietnam? Theyre using similar reasons to justify their actions, like literally everyone that knows about Machiavelli, not just Russia/North Korea/China or those so-called evil by World War 2 victors. Using threat as justifications for such actions in war is reasonable, but the question is what actions you do in process? Now this is something that differs AoT world and real life. What law bounds characters in AoT that limits you to tell "Oh this shit is too extra" other than each characters morale that was hinted obvious enough? It was none, right? That's what Isayama lackin on worldbuilding, if only he tells something that indeed stated that genocide is wrong in AoT world, Alliances would get more support and it makes Yeagerist total villain, but there's not. P.S: Even with law of wars and shit, there's still a lot of wars and conflict in the world, idealistic viewpoints only delay the timer. Dude I've had this argument with you before and I had to stop because we have a fundamental disagreement on the need of some objective standard of morality. You kept saying there is morality and I disagree so it's just useless to argue further. In this case I will simply provide my subjective view. And in my subjective view there needs be some objective standard of morality in this world. Otherwise the world will turn to chaos. A line has to be drawn. And for actions like forcefull invasions, colonisations, mass killings and genocides are on the wrong side of that line. And I stick by that line regardless of who the agressor is. All of the events you mentioned are true. And I consider all of them wrong and immoral. And so does a large part of the world. I consider Russia's invasion of Ukraine just as wrong as I consider USA's invasion of Iraq. It doesn't matter what the past or politics of USA, UK or any other western country is. What matters is that Ukraine did not declare war or provoke Russia in any way. So Russia's invasion of Ukraine is wrong. Just as it was wrong of USAbto invade Iraq. And those moral values don't need to exist in the world of AoT. Because these values are not dependent on your world or country. Not everyone derives their morality from their environment. Our morality comes from our ability to think and understand. You don't have to be told Murder is bad for you to think murder is bad. You don't have to be told r4pe is bad for you to know it's bad. And you don't have to be told that genocide is bad for you to believe it's bad. Those are conclusions any one can derive from their own conscience. In the end like I said. In my subjective view. There has to be a fix standard of morality. The most basic line. And it has to be kept and applied consistently no matter how big or small the scope of an action or committed those actions. |
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