I CAN'T

Sep 4, 2023 2:26 PM

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May 2020

194

ScionOfCyan said:
@onespankman

Suicide is unnecessary. Have you forgotten what Rem did in the arc before this one? He didn’t even go out of his way to alienate her, and she was supposed to be his ally. Now he alienated basically everybody in the capitol, mostly people predisposed to see him as an enemy or at best neutral, while Lugunica is in a power struggle and everyone is on edge. If you don’t see the incoherence here I can’t help you.

Basically the issue has nothing to do with what you said and is based on the fact that the time of powerful people is valuable and if you burn your bridges with them they don’t give you a second chance. There’s no way to ignore this without the political environment becoming totally unrealistic. Either Subaru dies and gets a second first impression or the behavior of everyone who cheerfully helps him later on is poorly written.

What Subaru learns in arc 3 is that in order to get help from people, he has to do things for them. Crush’s camp has their own stuff going on so he has to learn how to negotiate with them. A big part of this arc is Subaru learning to deal with powerful people.

Going in, he fully sees himself as the protagonist. He views his problems as automatically being the most important, and thinks begging people for help is enough to deserve it. Powerful people’s time is more valuable than Subaru respects, that’s one of the main things he learns in this arc.

Nobody cheerfully helps Subaru later without getting something from him in return (aside from Reinhard, who is basically the platonic ideal of heroism).

He has to kill a magic beast that’s been terrorizing Lugunica for centuries to earn Crush’s help, and single handedly plan taking out the witch cult to get a second chance with Roswaal’s camp.

There are concrete things that explain why every character acts the way they do towards Subaru, your criticism doesn’t make sense.

Sep 4, 2023 2:32 PM

#52

Polvo_Aranha

Offline

Jun 2020

846

darthe_ said:

Polvo_Aranha said:
I know how it feels. I'm rewatching too. Subaru is such a bad MC...

He is nowhere near a bad MC. You’re probably into the OP MC trope rather than something realistic.

Being stupid and a jerk isn't realistic, and my favorite MC is Kazuma (that means something).

Sep 4, 2023 2:35 PM

#53

ScionOfCyan

Offline

Apr 2022

93

Reply to onespankman

ScionOfCyan said:
@onespankman

Suicide is unnecessary. Have you forgotten what Rem did in the arc before this one? He didn’t even go out of his way to alienate her, and she was supposed to be his ally. Now he alienated basically everybody in the capitol, mostly people predisposed to see him as an enemy or at best neutral, while Lugunica is in a power struggle and everyone is on edge. If you don’t see the incoherence here I can’t help you.

Basically the issue has nothing to do with what you said and is based on the fact that the time of powerful people is valuable and if you burn your bridges with them they don’t give you a second chance. There’s no way to ignore this without the political environment becoming totally unrealistic. Either Subaru dies and gets a second first impression or the behavior of everyone who cheerfully helps him later on is poorly written.

What Subaru learns in arc 3 is that in order to get help from people, he has to do things for them. Crush’s camp has their own stuff going on so he has to learn how to negotiate with them. A big part of this arc is Subaru learning to deal with powerful people.

Going in, he fully sees himself as the protagonist. He views his problems as automatically being the most important, and thinks begging people for help is enough to deserve it. Powerful people’s time is more valuable than Subaru respects, that’s one of the main things he learns in this arc.

Nobody cheerfully helps Subaru later without getting something from him in return (aside from Reinhard, who is basically the platonic ideal of heroism).

He has to kill a magic beast that’s been terrorizing Lugunica for centuries to earn Crush’s help, and single handedly plan taking out the witch cult to get a second chance with Roswaal’s camp.

There are concrete things that explain why every character acts the way they do towards Subaru, your criticism doesn’t make sense.

@onespankman

You appear to have not understood what I said.

I am open to answering any clarification questions you might have.

Sep 4, 2023 2:36 PM

#54

darthe_

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Jan 2023

43

Polvo_Aranha said:

darthe_ said:

He is nowhere near a bad MC. You’re probably into the OP MC trope rather than something realistic.

Being stupid and a jerk isn't realistic, and my favorite MC is Kazuma (that means something).

“Being stupid and a jerk isn’t realistic”

This shows you missed the point. Subaru starts off as someone who is arrogant, impulsive, which leads him to make mistakes. The point of Subaru’s character is that he is flawed, and all of this suffering that comes from his flaws is what helps him become stronger as a character. Nobody is perfect, you’re telling me you’ve never done something stupid in your life which resulted in something you didn’t want to happen? Lol

Sep 4, 2023 2:38 PM

#55

Polvo_Aranha

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Jun 2020

846

darthe_ said:

Polvo_Aranha said:

Being stupid and a jerk isn't realistic, and my favorite MC is Kazuma (that means something).

“Being stupid and a jerk isn’t realistic”

This shows you missed the point. Subaru starts off as someone who is arrogant, impulsive, which leads him to make mistakes. The point of Subaru’s character is that he is flawed, and all of this suffering that comes from his flaws is what helps him become stronger as a character. Nobody is perfect, you’re telling me you’ve never done something stupid in your life which resulted in something you didn’t want to happen? Lol

He isn't perfect, but God, must all his dialogues be so embarrassing and cringe. Also, I watched both seasons so I know this problem remains for 4 arcs.

Sep 4, 2023 2:43 PM

#56

darthe_

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Jan 2023

43

Subaru at the beginning of Rezero and the end of s2 are different

Sep 4, 2023 6:17 PM

#57

onespankman

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May 2020

194

Reply to ScionOfCyan

@onespankman

You appear to have not understood what I said.

I am open to answering any clarification questions you might have.

@ScionOfCyan

First paragraph of your reply references Rem's actions in Arc 2, those actions were taken because of the specific context of her and Subaru's relationship in that arc. Subaru was some random guy who had the witch's scent on him, came to the manor out of nowhere, and was acting incredibly suspicious. It makes sense why Rem would kill him in that arc. You can't say that for anybody in Arc 3 aside from the villains. The specific plot and character context is more important than you're considering.

I think the point of your second paragraph is that Subaru burned bridges here that would prevent the plot from making sense in the future, since powerful people won't take him seriously. If that's the case, give an example of a future plot point that doesn't make sense considering this.

The only bridge he fully burns here is the one between him and Emilia, and that's rebuilt in convincing fashion. Aside from that, people in the capital probably think he's an annoying asshole, but there's no reason to think they wouldn't work with him in the future if they see it as beneficial to them.

If that's an incorrect read of your position, feel free to correct me.

onespankmanSep 4, 2023 6:32 PM

Sep 4, 2023 6:57 PM

#58

ScionOfCyan

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Apr 2022

93

@onespankman

Aside from that, people in the capital probably think he's an annoying asshole, but there's no reason to think they wouldn't work with him in the future if they see it as beneficial to them.

Think of it this way. Imagine a national cabinet, some extension of a presidential office, holds a meeting for an important event to decide policy or trade relations of some sort. Person X happens to be a guest of an ambassador of some other country. Person X is a total stranger to this country, with no apparent diplomatic value to provide nor skills of any kind to offer. In the course of this meeting, person X ignores the directions of his hosting ambassador to follow proper decorum. He unintentionally insults half of the cabinet because he does not know the habits of the nation. He interrupts the proceedings and wastes the time of everybody there when they are trying to get a difficult job done, for comments that make him look like an idiot or (and this is the reality we personally know) because he is uninformed or doesn’t know any better. Then the meeting ends.

What is the probability that anyone in that cabinet will ever willingly entertain an audience with him again? I will tell you what that chance is. It’s 0. The chances are 0. People use heuristics and first impressions very liberally, especially when they’re powerful and lots of people want to talk to them. There’s this old video of Borat that comes to my mind where he’s trying to prank Donald Trump and Trump basically tells him to get the hell out of his face after 40 seconds. Borat’s never going to get that audience again. This is how people act in reality.

That’s the issue. There’s no way for this to not be seriously flawed writing. I believe the best fix for this particular mistake is to have Subaru go back before the events at the ceremony when he respawns from dying in the snow.

Sep 4, 2023 7:15 PM

#59

ScionOfCyan

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Apr 2022

93

Subaru can still learn all of these lessons you’ve been talking about as he progresses and after he redoes the ceremony. There would be no inconsistency there. (That’s why I asked to clarify, since all of your intended rebuttals were unrelated or otherwise not mutually exclusive.)

Humans can be real sticklers about decorum and politeness. The writer creates a massive weight and burden of evidence that everybody there has reason to bear a grudge, or think he’s so stupid that spending even a second with him wastes that second, or to be irrationally angry at him for some unintended slight. It’s sloppy writing. If you have the chops to craft reasonable Machiavellian power politics in your stories, go ahead. If you don’t, keep it simple as possible to not make any obvious mistakes, and focus the writing on what you’re good at.

Sep 4, 2023 7:29 PM

#60

onespankman

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May 2020

194

Reply to ScionOfCyan

@onespankman

Aside from that, people in the capital probably think he's an annoying asshole, but there's no reason to think they wouldn't work with him in the future if they see it as beneficial to them.

Think of it this way. Imagine a national cabinet, some extension of a presidential office, holds a meeting for an important event to decide policy or trade relations of some sort. Person X happens to be a guest of an ambassador of some other country. Person X is a total stranger to this country, with no apparent diplomatic value to provide nor skills of any kind to offer. In the course of this meeting, person X ignores the directions of his hosting ambassador to follow proper decorum. He unintentionally insults half of the cabinet because he does not know the habits of the nation. He interrupts the proceedings and wastes the time of everybody there when they are trying to get a difficult job done, for comments that make him look like an idiot or (and this is the reality we personally know) because he is uninformed or doesn’t know any better. Then the meeting ends.

What is the probability that anyone in that cabinet will ever willingly entertain an audience with him again? I will tell you what that chance is. It’s 0. The chances are 0. People use heuristics and first impressions very liberally, especially when they’re powerful and lots of people want to talk to them. There’s this old video of Borat that comes to my mind where he’s trying to prank Donald Trump and Trump basically tells him to get the hell out of his face after 40 seconds. Borat’s never going to get that audience again. This is how people act in reality.

That’s the issue. There’s no way for this to not be seriously flawed writing. I believe the best fix for this particular mistake is to have Subaru go back before the events at the ceremony when he respawns from dying in the snow.

@ScionOfCyan

If that person becomes a national hero almost immediately after that and gains powerful allies in the process, yeah, the odds aren't zero.

You're not respecting the significance of what actually happens in the plot here. It's easy to take one thing completely out of context and compare it to some general principle you believe in, but that's bad criticism. What is good writing in a story depends on the context of that story. A whole lot happens before and after episode 13 that explains why people are willing to take Subaru seriously.

The only reason he's not back to square one after episode 13 is that he has a miniscule bit of clout from the handful of people that vouch for him (and pity him). He organizes a hunt to kill the white whale after that, and takes out an entire sect of the witch cult. It makes quite a lot of sense that after that (and the events of Arc 4) people would see him in a different light.

If your problem is with the events of Arc 3 directly after episode 13, there are direct reasons each royal selection candidate talks to him. Re:Zero is a very carefully written story, if something seems a bit unlikely, the author directly addresses it in the plot. It’s hard to evidence your claim for that reason, it just doesn’t accord with what we’re shown.

If your claim is that powerful people, as a rule, never move past first impressions… well, that’s just obviously wrong. Powerful people are not a monolith and they think and act differently. That’s especially true in stories, authors are able to write any character they can think up, not every powerful person in Re:Zero needs to act how you think powerful people do in real life, they just need to act in ways that make sense given their previous characterization.

This is not bad writing, you're just bringing a bunch of weird preconceptions into the story rather than taking it on its own terms.

Sep 4, 2023 7:36 PM

#61

onespankman

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May 2020

194

ScionOfCyan said:
Subaru can still learn all of these lessons you’ve been talking about as he progresses and after he redoes the ceremony. There would be no inconsistency there. (That’s why I asked to clarify, since all of your intended rebuttals were unrelated or otherwise not mutually exclusive.)

Humans can be real sticklers about decorum and politeness. The writer creates a massive weight and burden of evidence that everybody there has reason to bear a grudge, or think he’s so stupid that spending even a second with him wastes that second, or to be irrationally angry at him for some unintended slight. It’s sloppy writing. If you have the chops to craft reasonable Machiavellian power politics in your stories, go ahead. If you don’t, keep it simple as possible to not make any obvious mistakes, and focus the writing on what you’re good at.

I’m not saying you can’t do all of the things not letting him reset this accomplishes in different ways, just that it would be pointless. It’s an efficient writing decision.

Your entire argument is centered on the idea that powerful people think entirely differently from everyone else, that they’re never able to shake a first impression. That’s nonsense in real life, and the idea that the powerful people in this story need to act exactly like it is baseless.

onespankmanSep 4, 2023 7:42 PM

Sep 4, 2023 7:44 PM

#62

ScionOfCyan

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Apr 2022

93

@onespankman

Probably my last time tagging you so I wanted to first say I appreciate you being so respectful.

The reason he can arrange the hunt for the white whale in the first place is because he is granted the audiences that I already said could never occur.

I believe you do not fully appreciate human use of decorum and politeness as a filtering mechanism for if people are worth their time or should be avoided. Dates or early romantic overtures from a boy to a girl are another really good example. If my friend who is a girl tells me about the boy who on their first date told her 6 extreme off-color jokes and committed other social faux pas (say in the way he treats the waiter), I’m not going to tell her to give him a second chance. I’m going to tell her to never see his face again.

People meet lots of strangers, you need effective heuristics to be able to apportion your time wisely. Subaru does the etiquette equivalent of defecating on the front lawn of everybody in the ceremony.

I’m not expecting you to admit the usefulness and validity of these “preconceptions” I’m going over here. I think you like Re:Zero a bit too passionately for that to happen. At this point I’m just talking it through for anybody who reads (including yourself) to potentially learn from the discussion. Etiquette and decorum is a human heuristic for updating Bayesian priors on the worthwhileness of pursuing or continuing a new relationship. It works well since following etiquette shows somebody is capable of self-discipline to subjugate immediate desires so that everyday interpersonal interactions go smoothly, which indicates the capacity for being responsible in other areas. You don’t have a lot to go on with a stranger so you need ways to come to useful conclusions rapidly. Something worth knowing about in general.

Thanks for the chat.

ScionOfCyanSep 4, 2023 7:47 PM

Sep 4, 2023 8:41 PM

#63

onespankman

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May 2020

194

ScionOfCyan said:
@onespankman

Probably my last time tagging you so I wanted to first say I appreciate you being so respectful.

The reason he can arrange the hunt for the white whale in the first place is because he is granted the audiences that I already said could never occur.

I believe you do not fully appreciate human use of decorum and politeness as a filtering mechanism for if people are worth their time or should be avoided. Dates or early romantic overtures from a boy to a girl are another really good example. If my friend who is a girl tells me about the boy who on their first date told her 6 extreme off-color jokes and committed other social faux pas (say in the way he treats the waiter), I’m not going to tell her to give him a second chance. I’m going to tell her to never see his face again.

People meet lots of strangers, you need effective heuristics to be able to apportion your time wisely. Subaru does the etiquette equivalent of defecating on the front lawn of everybody in the ceremony.

I’m not expecting you to admit the usefulness and validity of these “preconceptions” I’m going over here. I think you like Re:Zero a bit too passionately for that to happen. At this point I’m just talking it through for anybody who reads (including yourself) to potentially learn from the discussion. Etiquette and decorum is a human heuristic for updating Bayesian priors on the worthwhileness of pursuing or continuing a new relationship. It works well since following etiquette shows somebody is capable of self-discipline to subjugate immediate desires so that everyday interpersonal interactions go smoothly, which indicates the capacity for being responsible in other areas. You don’t have a lot to go on with a stranger so you need ways to come to useful conclusions rapidly. Something worth knowing about in general.

Thanks for the chat.

The reasons he’s granted those audiences are directly explained in the plot, again as long as the events are consistent with the established traits of characters, it’s good writing.

None of the characters Subaru leaves a bad impression on in this scene act out of character based on that later, your case here is extremely strained and lacking in direct examples because of that.

You’re applying a general view of a narrow facet of human social interactions to a story without really considering how that story functions. This is not a real problem with the plot and how sparse your direct examples are is illustrative of that.

The preconception I refer to is not that first impressions are socially important, but that they are immutable for powerful people specifically. Their time is more valuable, sure, but they allocate it by the same mechanisms as anyone else.

I’m not all that passionate a Re:Zero fan actually, I just respect how carefully constructed the story is, among other things. If you want a passionate defense try to tear Mushoku Tensei or Oshi no Ko apart.

Appreciate anyone who’s willing to talk at length about media like this, thanks for the conversation.

onespankmanSep 4, 2023 8:44 PM

Sep 5, 2023 12:25 AM

#64

ilusatus

Offline

Nov 2017

170

Bro, i watch both season and i still think hes not changed at all.
Still a kid with more hormone in his head than a brain.

Sep 5, 2023 3:35 AM

#65

Cyrose

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Feb 2020

469

DexterDrubo said:
I just watched episode 13 (the one where he enters the castle and declares he is a knight and does shitty things) and I can't continue the anime...He was so cringe and an asshole. Pls tell me if he changes (becomes stronger and more mature) or he kills himself to undo everything...
He gave me a headache in this episode...

Edit: Ig I will continue watching it (enduring the pain) and I swear if he doesn't change I will kill every single person in this forum.

He is the reason why I don’t like this anime.

Sep 5, 2023 12:09 PM

#66

RobertBobert

Offline

Apr 2012

18970

Why are people so incapable of waiting and watching characters develop these days? This isn't the first time I've seen people complain about having to go through character development.

Sep 5, 2023 1:43 PM

#67

Merve2Love

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Apr 2020

2118

Then don't. We don't....we shouldn't....care

Sep 5, 2023 10:48 PM

#68

Zetsu_95

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Feb 2016

406

Keep pushing onward he gets alot of character development as the series goes on

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I CAN'T

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