UnpopularAnime said: i am really interested in here.. tell me more...-Maz said: I'm with @kamisama751 on this one. Any reason / excuse is acceptable so long as they explain why they feel that way. These are reasons an anime is bad, that isn't based on personal preference. |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
UnpopularAnime said: -Maz said: I'm with @kamisama751 on this one. Any reason / excuse is acceptable so long as they explain why they feel that way. These are reasons an anime is bad, that isn't based on personal preference. I'm curious as to any specific examples you might have here. I mean, some people actually accept and admit to any flaws an anime might have, but give reasons as to why they enjoyed that anime regardless. If I'm not mistaken, @TheBrainInTheJar admits that Mirrai Nikki's plot is an absolute mess, but he thoroughly enjoyed the anime regardless. He can back up the why - even if the anime is " bad without being based on personal preference." That's the point I'm getting at with my post. Even if a flaw isn't based on personal preference - whatever that flaw might be - that doesn't make someone's explanation any less valid. |
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Kuma said: um this is just what the op is about. i am really interested in here.. tell me more... Kuma said: i am really interested in here.. tell me more... This is just what the op's about... quote from the op: "What are acceptable and unacceptable reason/excuse that people always use to make certain series sound bad/better to the PUBLIC that base on/not base on personal judgement/opinion/preference/?" |
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UnpopularAnime said: yes, and i am asking "what are reasons an anime is bad, that isn't based on personal preference?"Kuma said: i am really interested in here.. tell me more... This is just what the op's about... quote from the op: "What are acceptable and unacceptable reason/excuse that people always use to make certain series sound bad/better to the PUBLIC that base on/not base on personal judgement/opinion/preference/?" because i can't find such a thing... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
UnpopularAnime said: Op's question is so general that everything goes.Kuma said: um this is just what the op is about. i am really interested in here.. tell me more... Kuma said: i am really interested in here.. tell me more... This is just what the op's about... quote from the op: "What are acceptable and unacceptable reason/excuse that people always use to make certain series sound bad/better to the PUBLIC that base on/not base on personal judgement/opinion/preference?" |
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| Disagree with the pacing part :/ For me, I hate it when people are like "It's a guilty pleasure" |
-Maz said: I'm curious as to any specific examples you might have here. I mean, some people actually accept and admit to any flaws an anime might have, but give reasons as to why they enjoyed that anime regardless. If I'm not mistaken, @TheBrainInTheJar admits that Mirrai Nikki's plot is an absolute mess, but he thoroughly enjoyed the anime regardless. He can back up the why - even if the anime is " bad without being based on personal preference." That's the point I'm getting at with my post. Even if a flaw isn't based on personal preference - whatever that flaw might be - that doesn't make someone's explanation any less valid. Well if it doesn't make someone else's explanation invalid, then I think it would be considered a personal preference. Say sword art online, allot of time and events in the anime is just skipped. You might think that saying the anime is bad for skipping all this stuff, can't be based on personal preference, and it's just a fact, but it is your personal preference. One might like that allot of the show is skipped, because they don't want to watch a long anime, and like that only the important things are shown. And acceptable reason for an anime being bad, could be that important parts of the plot are skipped. Say one of the mc's dies, and their death isn't shown and it isn't even explained, the character just stops appearing in the show, and episodes later you hear someone say "i wish mc was still alive". Another reason, like the op said, are plot holes. Say, a character suddenly becomes rich, no one wonders why/how, and it isn't explained, everyone acts like he was rich for the longest time. |
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Kuma said: UnpopularAnime said: yes, and i am asking "what are reasons an anime is bad, that isn't based on personal preference?"This is just what the op's about... quote from the op: "What are acceptable and unacceptable reason/excuse that people always use to make certain series sound bad/better to the PUBLIC that base on/not base on personal judgement/opinion/preference/?" because i can't find such a thing... well that's what this whole topic is about, but here are 2 examples copy and pasted from another of my replies: And acceptable reason for an anime being bad, could be that important parts of the plot are skipped. Say one of the mc's dies, and their death isn't shown and it isn't even explained, the character just stops appearing in the show, and episodes later you hear someone say "i wish mc was still alive". Another reason, like the op said, are plot holes. Say, a character suddenly becomes rich, no one wonders why/how, and it isn't explained, everyone acts like he was rich for the longest time. |
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Taz_ said: Disagree with the pacing part :/ For me, I hate it when people are like "It's a guilty pleasure" Agreed. People who say that "x show is just a guilty pleasure for me" are trying to make themselves feel better for liking a show that a lot of other people criticize so it seems like they have good taste instead of saying "I like x show." |
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UnpopularAnime said: Kuma said: yes, and i am asking "what are reasons an anime is bad, that isn't based on personal preference?" because i can't find such a thing... well that's what this whole topic is about, but here are 2 examples copy and pasted from another of my replies: And acceptable reason for an anime being bad, could be that important parts of the plot are skipped. Say one of the mc's dies, and their death isn't shown and it isn't even explained, the character just stops appearing in the show, and episodes later you hear someone say "i wish mc was still alive". Another reason, like the op said, are plot holes. Say, a character suddenly becomes rich, no one wonders why/how, and it isn't explained, everyone acts like he was rich for the longest time. but that's subjective too and you can't judge a shows bad or good just solely because of that and it reception may vary... there is also resistance suspensions of disbelieve... it is based on personal refference... lets take example > plot are skipped you know how famouse ODA skipped soo many important plot? just giving hint and forshadow forshadow aout it? like akainu vs aokiji for example in early... is that mean one piece bad? no. infact ti give you more misteries and excitement waiting to it to got revealed.. i don't get skipping plot will automaticaly bad > plot holes okay, so a character being suddenly rich is plot hole? isn't it just simply part of setting? i mean why asking character has pink hair? plot hole? the fuck is this? also just because someone see it plot hole, every people will see it plot hole.. more laughable when someone saying plot hole, but it actually explaine later on... it's make them prejudice... |
KumaMay 23, 2016 5:38 PM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: However in the example mentioned by you the main cast is not involved and showing that fight doesn't really affect the story even if the result has consequences on the world. Showing their fight would add just a probably badass battle to the show (which I would like to see) but not much for plot.UnpopularAnime said: well that's what this whole topic is about, but here are 2 examples copy and pasted from another of my replies: And acceptable reason for an anime being bad, could be that important parts of the plot are skipped. Say one of the mc's dies, and their death isn't shown and it isn't even explained, the character just stops appearing in the show, and episodes later you hear someone say "i wish mc was still alive". Another reason, like the op said, are plot holes. Say, a character suddenly becomes rich, no one wonders why/how, and it isn't explained, everyone acts like he was rich for the longest time. but that's subjective too and can't judge a shows bad or good just solely because of that and it reception my vary... so it is based on personal refference... lets take example > plot are skipped you know how famouse ODA skipped soo many important plot? just giving hint and forshadow forshadow aout it? like akainu vs aokiji for example in early... is that mean one piece bad? no. infact ti give you more misteries and excitement waiting to it to got revealed.. i don't get skipping plot will automaticaly bad I agree that sometimes not showing certain things might be better than showing them because of those factors but it should be done in moderation. In SAO we don't see even half the floors and then get useless (imo) harem episodes. |
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KoreaWS said: TheKawaiiZombie said: No, as a matter of fact, it is a retarded claim. It is pretty much to story what a ''Pussy'' character claim is to characters. Edit : Also, anyone could say that any anime is ''pretentious'' Humans are pretentious for thinking they are better than animals even though they're not. An author can be pretentious, but saying the work is pretentious is pretty stupid. Pretentiousness is just pretending something is better without having much things to support it. Saying a 100 lives are worth more than 1 is pretentious, does that mean Fate/Zero is bad ? No, it doesn't. I hate when people think lives are math and think 100 is necessarily worth more than 1 yet i fucking love Fate/Zero, and i hate Kiritsugu but he is a great character, there is no denying that. Using humans as example doesn't deny the fact shows can be pretentious too. That definition of yours can also be applied to an anime show in it's entirety. Saying an anime is pretentious is saying that the show pretended to be more than it is: it is a characteristic of the show as much as "pussy" is a characteristic of a character (and it is a negative trait by the way: allowing yourself to be used as stepladder by others). When you call a show pretentious you refer to one of it's characteristics, and that is a bad thing for the show since it is dishonest with the audience. If you believe beign dishonest is a good thing, then that's your problem, but saying that calling a show pretentious when it is is retarded, then you are just denying a fact. LOL i hate pretentious people probably more than anyone in this entire community, i cannot fucking stand those types of people. I could beat the shit out of someone if they start being pretentious in front of me ( Well, i wouldn't hit a woman or child but i for sure would tell them to get the fuck out of my sight. ) A pussy character isn't necessarily a bad character, it makes him a stupid person but not a bad ''character''. Kaneki Ken in Tokyo Ghoul IS a pussy ( Until later... ) Yet he is a really good character. I can see your point but honestly, i've never seen an anime that i could even think of calling pretentious, most of the anime that are considered ''pretentious'' by the retards i talk about get called that because some people see more than what the anime is in it, that's not even close to make that anime pretentious, it's the people that make it seem like that. Just so i can see if it makes sense, could you tell me what anime you would call pretentious ? |
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Kuma said: UnpopularAnime said: well that's what this whole topic is about, but here are 2 examples copy and pasted from another of my replies: And acceptable reason for an anime being bad, could be that important parts of the plot are skipped. Say one of the mc's dies, and their death isn't shown and it isn't even explained, the character just stops appearing in the show, and episodes later you hear someone say "i wish mc was still alive". Another reason, like the op said, are plot holes. Say, a character suddenly becomes rich, no one wonders why/how, and it isn't explained, everyone acts like he was rich for the longest time. but that's subjective too and you can't judge a shows bad or good just solely because of that and it reception may vary... there is also resistance suspensions of disbelieve... it is based on personal refference... lets take example > plot are skipped you know how famouse ODA skipped soo many important plot? just giving hint and forshadow forshadow aout it? like akainu vs aokiji for example in early... is that mean one piece bad? no. infact ti give you more misteries and excitement waiting to it to got revealed.. i don't get skipping plot will automaticaly bad > plot holes okay, so a character being suddenly rich is plot hole? isn't it just simply part of setting? i mean why asking character has pink hair? plot hole? the fuck is this? also just because someone see it plot hole, every people will see it plot hole.. more laughable when someone saying plot hole, but it actually explaine later on... it's make them prejudice... For the rich character, if he becomes rich, and all the characters act as if he were always rich, it is a plot hole. Nothing is explained about it, for this to happen they would literally have to leave out an important episode, one that contains plot, so when part of a plot isn't there, it's a plot hole. And yes, the mc dying with no explanation until episodes later is a plot hole. Say in sao, if Asuna stops appearing in the show, nothing is said about it. 10 episodes later, the mc says "It's been 10 years since asuna died" it doesn't matter how you look at it, it's a plot hole, and it does mean the anime has a problem with it. It's explained later on, but why not sooner? The characters knew she was dead already, so it is a plot hole, it leaves that information out. |
UnpopularAnimeMay 23, 2016 6:02 PM
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zal said: we can argue about how necessary it showed of or not, but that's the prove that it is still not objective value to it... Kuma said: However in the example mentioned by you the main cast is not involved and showing that fight doesn't really affect the story even if the result has consequences on the world. Showing their fight would add just a probably badass battle to the show (which I would like to see) but not much for plot.but that's subjective too and can't judge a shows bad or good just solely because of that and it reception my vary... so it is based on personal refference... lets take example > plot are skipped you know how famouse ODA skipped soo many important plot? just giving hint and forshadow forshadow aout it? like akainu vs aokiji for example in early... is that mean one piece bad? no. infact ti give you more misteries and excitement waiting to it to got revealed.. i don't get skipping plot will automaticaly bad I agree that sometimes not showing certain things might be better than showing them because of those factors but it should be done in moderation. In SAO we don't see even half the floors and then get useless (imo) harem episodes. it still called skipping important plot... becaus ethat showing marine side of power who supposed to be main villian of this series.. lets take oyasumi punpun for example, everything about punpun father is abondened afterwards, and it affected directly to punpun.. and author prefer to not showed it... is oyasumi punpun bad? skipping or not is not the problem... as long the plot still make a sanse, i don't have any problem with skipping some important plot... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
UnpopularAnime said: wait what? i have totaly lost words in this... do you even know what is plot hole? try google it first before make such statement...For the rich character, if he becomes rich, and all the characters act as if he were always rich, it is a plot hole. Nothing is explained about it, for this to happen they would literally have to leave out an important episode, one that contains plot, so when part of a plot isn't there, it's a plot hole. And yes, the mc dying with no explanation until episodes later is a plot hole. Say in sao, if Asuna stops appearing in the show, nothing is said about it. 10 episodes later, the mc says "It's been 10 years since asuna died" it doesn't matter how you look at it, it's a plot hole, and it does mean the anime has a problem with it. It's explained later on, but why not sooner? The characters knew she was dead already, so it is a plot hole, it leaves that information out. your first santances is simply asking about setings... like asking "why this character is short?" the answer is obvious "because it designed that way, duh".. WTF? except there is some hidden meanings on it... that's all simply lefting unexplained to build tension for watcher... make watcher guessing and left them wondering for next episode is not bad by anymean... how the is that bad? that's not even plot hole... |
KumaMay 23, 2016 6:13 PM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
TheKawaiiZombie said: Just so i can see if it makes sense, could you tell me what anime you would call pretentious ? Psycho Pass, pretends to be a sci-fi dystopia with philosophical themes but is just an action flick with mostly bland characters, lots of shock and gratuitious philosophical quotes. Tokyo Ghoul too, pretends to be a story about monsters conviving with human with moral themes but is just an action flick with mostly bland characters, lots of shock and a pussy character that gets rewriten into the abuser that attacks him on the last chapters (Only talking about first season, I didn't want to check further). They're both pretentious. But, as you can atest to, it can still be enjoyed despite that. I enjoyed the first, I didn't like the second. |
 It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye.But does the heart have the right perspective? |
Kuma said: UnpopularAnime said: wait what? i have totaly lost words in this... do you even know what is plot hole? try google it first before make such statement...For the rich character, if he becomes rich, and all the characters act as if he were always rich, it is a plot hole. Nothing is explained about it, for this to happen they would literally have to leave out an important episode, one that contains plot, so when part of a plot isn't there, it's a plot hole. And yes, the mc dying with no explanation until episodes later is a plot hole. Say in sao, if Asuna stops appearing in the show, nothing is said about it. 10 episodes later, the mc says "It's been 10 years since asuna died" it doesn't matter how you look at it, it's a plot hole, and it does mean the anime has a problem with it. It's explained later on, but why not sooner? The characters knew she was dead already, so it is a plot hole, it leaves that information out. your first santances is simply asking about setings... like asking "why this character is short?" the answer is obvious "because it designed that way, duh".. WTF? except there is some hidden meanings on it... that's all simply lefting unexplained to build tension for watcher... make watcher guessing and left them wondering for next episode is not bad by anymean... how the is that bad? that's not even plot hole... Plot hole definition: In a piece of fiction, a Plot Hole is a completely implausible occurrence or series of events that contradicts logic or previously established events in the story. Includes things such as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. I never talked about setting, I was only talking about plot. A person getting rich, is different than a person being rich. "Includes things such as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters" The character's friends act like he has always been rich. "events happening for no apparent reason" A poor character getting rich is an event. And it happened for no apparent reason. "that's all simply lefting unexplained to build tension for watcher... make watcher guessing and left them wondering for next episode is not bad by anymean... how the is that bad? that's not even plot hole..." Are you referring to the sao example I gave? If so: It's not building tension, it just leaves the viewer confused. Are you really saying that if a character dies, and all the characters know about it, but the viewer doesn't find out until 10 years after(in anime time), it's not a plot hole? By the definition, it is. |
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| I find unacceptable when people say it's good because it's a deconstruction, mostly when they refer to for example School Days (nothing in this show makes sense, and it's just the dream of a 15 year old teenage boy like any harem, just that it has sex and makes you think it's adult when it's not), and that "this character suffers a lot", mostly because drama itself doesn't make anything good per se. Also referring to parody, since, you know, there are good parodies and bad parodies, being one doesn't mean that some of it aspects are not meant to be taken seriously and make it better or worse. Oh, and one last, I have never cared about characters having to be always relatable. Like, making them human give them more complexity but the relatability factor only matters in shows like Welcome to the NHK, or at least this is how I feel about it. |
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-Maz said: I'm curious as to any specific examples you might have here. I mean, some people actually accept and admit to any flaws an anime might have, but give reasons as to why they enjoyed that anime regardless. If I'm not mistaken, @TheBrainInTheJar admits that Mirrai Nikki's plot is an absolute mess, but he thoroughly enjoyed the anime regardless. He can back up the why - even if the anime is " bad without being based on personal preference." That's the point I'm getting at with my post. Even if a flaw isn't based on personal preference - whatever that flaw might be - that doesn't make someone's explanation any less valid. What's 'personal preference' anyway? I don't think the flaw makes Mirai Nikki a bad anime. That's because the flaw is justified - the anime is so bizarre, so original and refuses to settle for one genre. It's full of funny characters and deep characters and cool characters. A show that attempts so much would naturally be messy. |
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UnpopularAnime said: that's why i am asking...Plot hole definition: In a piece of fiction, a Plot Hole is a completely implausible occurrence or series of events that contradicts logic or previously established events in the story. Includes things such as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. I never talked about setting, I was only talking about plot. A person getting rich, is different than a person being rich. "Includes things such as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters" The character's friends act like he has always been rich. "events happening for no apparent reason" A poor character getting rich is an event. And it happened for no apparent reason. "that's all simply lefting unexplained to build tension for watcher... make watcher guessing and left them wondering for next episode is not bad by anymean... how the is that bad? that's not even plot hole..." Are you referring to the sao example I gave? If so: It's not building tension, it just leaves the viewer confused. Are you really saying that if a character dies, and all the characters know about it, but the viewer doesn't find out until 10 years after(in anime time), it's not a plot hole? By the definition, it is. " implausible occurrence or series of events that contradicts logic or previously established events in the story." person being rich is not bending any logic that estabilized in the shows, except it has seting that force people to do so (i am honestly can't remember any series with this setings), and only MC got speciality out of it and never explained why... person being rich after poor is normal, and not bending any logic estabilished even it's not explained... plot hole is not necessary something that not explained... it can be explained but doesn't make sanse, it still plot hole... and like that, in the end, those "sense" is still personal bias... if the character being unrealistic, if it already estabilished in the shows, then it's not plot hole... just unrealistic setings... and i don't find why it's bad in general.. fiction is different from reality.. no it's not... everythying not necessary explained in beginning... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Stop assuming that he's talking about an incomplete story. Plot holes are noticed, in some cases, when the story is done. And even then the author could retcon them in a sequel or side story, making it obvious he didn't cared the first time around and left the plot hole as a necessity for the story. Other times they are an obvious contradiction to the show own logic, despite of how unrealistic the setting is (See "Magic A is Magic A"), that clearly leaves any viewer with a functioning brain questioning the author's writing ability. |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
KoreaWS said: no, take a look at his example... "a character suddenly being rich", it's just part of event that not bending any logic... that's why i always asking about example, because he still doesn't give me exact example of plot hole. only "if".. i can't judge about if... plot hole is missing explanation that make it contradict with logic that already established in the series...Stop assuming that he's talking about an incomplete story. Plot holes are noticed, in some cases, when the story is done. And even then the author could retcon them in a sequel or side story, making it obvious he didn't cared the first time around and left the plot hole as a necessity for the story. Other times they are an obvious contradiction to the show own logic, despite of how unrealistic the setting is (See "Magic A is Magic A"), that clearly leaves any viewer with a functioning brain questioning the author's writing ability. okay, now we are argue about "should anime explaine every damn thing in the beginning?" i think i neeed to make new thread about this.. i don't think it's necessary... left some mystery to guessing is exciting... that's why there is such a thing called hint, foreshadow, and flag... why people so impatience this days? take a look at RE:zero episode disccusion.. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: no, take a look at his example... "a character suddenly being rich", it's just part of event that not bending any logic... that's why i always asking about example, because he still doesn't give me exact example of plot hole. only "if".. i can't judge about if... plot hole is missing explanation that make it contradict with logic that already established in the series... okay, now we are argue about "should anime explaine every damn thing in the beginning?" i think i neeed to make new thread about this.. i don't think it's necessary... left some mystery to guessing is exciting... that's why there is such a thing called hint, foreshadow, and flag... why people so impatience this days? take a look at RE:zero episode disccusion.. Plot hole: Character got rich, realistic setting, not-comedy, no one wonders why and how, not even the police. The characters are oblivious to that fact. That's the plot hole he talks about: Is not resonable for human beigns with common sense to be oblivious to that fact. Take that as it is, don't add your own "what if's", and you would understand what he's talking about. Also, don't twist my words to your convenience. I never, ever referred to anything about "should anime explaine every damn thing in the beginning?". Your claim came out of nowhere and as such I dismiss it. If I had such mentality, of hating anime that doesn't explains anything in the beginning, I wouldn't have Shinsekai Yori on my favorites. Re:Zero is full of flaws. The lack of common sense of the yet-another-underdog-MC is a plot device, the mastermind is a yandere and Keikaku Doori's are abundant. It's mistery is lame due to how basic the "tie the points" methodology is and how lame the payoff is, the use of foreshadowing is terribly disguised (the onis are an obvious allusion to Ram and Rem situation) , the magic element is convenient as fuck (Puck mind reading and Satella interventions are ways the author used to avoid conflict) and the writing overall sucks. The fanboys have Sao tier of sheepish blindness, dismissing any sing of bad writting brought to them as "shitposting" or "trolling", the author is a lazy sadist and the only real reason people watch it is misery porn, because that's the only thing it is. But this is not a re:zero thread, you can ignore the paragraph above. |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
KoreaWS said: sorry if i am readt your post wrong... i am not that great with words..Kuma said: no, take a look at his example... "a character suddenly being rich", it's just part of event that not bending any logic... that's why i always asking about example, because he still doesn't give me exact example of plot hole. only "if".. i can't judge about if... plot hole is missing explanation that make it contradict with logic that already established in the series... okay, now we are argue about "should anime explaine every damn thing in the beginning?" i think i neeed to make new thread about this.. i don't think it's necessary... left some mystery to guessing is exciting... that's why there is such a thing called hint, foreshadow, and flag... why people so impatience this days? take a look at RE:zero episode disccusion.. Plot hole: Character got rich, realistic setting, not-comedy, no one wonders why and how, not even the police. The characters are oblivious to that fact. That's the plot hole he talks about: Is not resonable for human beigns with common sense to be oblivious to that fact. Take that as it is, don't add your own "what if's", and you would understand what he's talking about. what i am asking in first place how can there is such a thing called "withou personal bias" when saying an anime bad... he said plot hole.. that's why i am asking how? because plot hole even has thing called suspension of disbelieve.. now, plot hole is something than bending the logic that series established.. a character being rich and no one asking about is not bending universe logic by any mean, but unrealistic character traits, which is different from plot hole.. what you talking about "plot hole" is not plot hole i understand and using for critics... it's different matter... also if you using your own realisitic logic to judge a series with their own logic, i can't comperhand that... everything can called plot hole with that logic.... like "why the character soo short? that's never explained in the story.." "why the character have soo big eyes, is they got cancer or something?" that can explained with simple logic... not plot hole.. |
KumaMay 24, 2016 8:29 AM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: now, plot hole is something than bending the logic that series established.. a character being rich and no one asking about is not bending universe logic by any mean, but unrealistic character traits, which is different from plot hole.. what you talking about "plot hole" is not plot hole i understand and using for critics... it's different matter... also if you using your own realisitic logic to judge a series with their own logic, i can't comperhand that... everything can called plot hole with that logic.... like "why the character soo short? that's never explained in the story.." "why the character have soo big eyes, is they got cancer or something?" that can explained with simple logic... not plot hole.. If put in a realistic setting, with realistic humans in there, it already defies the logic of the setting, since humans are acting unrealistic. Unless is some kind of comedy, without any other element there's a plot hole in there if it's left unexplained. Do notice I'm talking about substance: story elements and characters. Style choices like a short character or big eyes are less of an issue. For example: ToraDora. Taiga is small and the red haired girl has huge eyes. That isn't an issue sice the characters do behave like teenagers. You can comprehend they are portrayed in that way due to stylistic choices, while still associating them, personality wise, as people of their age. You do bring a good point about suspension of disbelief. Different audiences have different threshold of suspension, and despite this, a plot hole is still a plot hole. The people are the one tolerating them, depending of their exigence. |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
KoreaWS said: If put in a realistic setting, with realistic humans in there, it already defies the logic of the setting, since humans are acting unrealistic. Unless is some kind of comedy, without any other element there's a plot hole in there if it's left unexplained.For example: ToraDora. Taiga is small and the red haired girl has huge eyes. That isn't an issue sice the characters do behave like teenagers. You can comprehend they are portrayed in that way due to stylistic choices, while still associating them, personality wise, as people of their age. that's not calling defy the logic, but estabilished their own logic... lets said the setings is when magic exist... the series will thread magic as normal things, as do as the character... of course it's illogical if we using our logic... in the end, logic isn't devinitive... it's result on human experience, though, and teach and it's vary from person to person... not even real people have same logic, let alone fiction... okay, maybe let me give even more simple example... somthing maybe defy our realistic logic, but looking at their perspective, it is the one that logical... ours is the one that unrealistic... that's why persepctive is important.. much more important than logic... in the end, simply defying logic without explanation is not plot hole... KoreaWS said: now here is the problem...You do bring a good point about suspension of disbelief. Different audiences have different threshold of suspension, and despite this, a plot hole is still a plot hole. The people are the one tolerating them, depending of their exigence. OP saying that plot hole is objective value that determined a series is bad without "personal bias"... the problem plot hole is not even objective... plot hole still affected by personal bias... yes plot hole is plot hole, but is it make series good or bad? sure, you can use it as critics.. but if you think "your plot hole" is the one determined a series being good or bad in genereal, i call bullshit on that... |
KumaMay 24, 2016 9:19 AM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| @Kuma You example is a comedy. Please read and try to understand the example I give. If put in a realistic setting, with realistic humans in there, it already defies the logic of the setting, since humans are acting unrealistic. Unless is some kind of comedy, without any other element there's a plot hole in there if it's left unexplained It presents a plot hole based on an established realistic setting, no magic, no supernatural, nothing. Do try to understand why it is one before trying to reply. Don't talk about perspective if you can't understand why the valid example given is a plot hole. For the second point, a plot hole is a plot hole, and makes the story bad. It is a fact of the story, something from the author's side. What I meant with threshold of disbelief is how much bullshit the viewer is able to tolerate of a show. That's from the viewer's side. |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
kamisama751 said: Kuma said: yes plot hole is plot hole, but is it make series good or bad? sure, you can use it as critics.. but if you think "your plot hole" is the one determined a series being good or bad in genereal, i call bullshit on that... A plot hole is a plot hole. It makes the plot worse. If something is bad or not is also based on other things. Don't mind me, I just want to give this piece of information. That's reasonable. I got that definition wrong. Thanks based kami. |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
KoreaWS said: please undertand the logic that used for comedy and apply it in our discussion... do i need to explain? the author even mention "realistic reaction" on there... i don't even use the comedy... just showing that logic is weak infront of perspective...@Kuma You example is a comedy. Please read and try to understand the example I give. It presents a plot hole based on an established realistic setting, no magic, no supernatural, nothing. Do try to understand why it is one before trying to reply. Don't talk about perspective if you can't understand why the valid example given is a plot hole. the problem is thing you meantion is still not estabilished in it's universe logic... so no, not yet... just because it has realistic looking, doesn't mean everything about it will be realistic... author can chose what realistic point he put and what not... but he has to make it clear with viewer... the problem is viewer isn't same... sure i am bad at words and persepctive and i am aware of that... but i want to said plot hole for you =/= plot hole for everyone... and bad pont for evberyone... KoreaWS said: For the second point, a plot hole is a plot hole, and makes the story bad. It is a fact of the story, something from the author's side. What I meant with threshold of disbelief is how much bullshit the viewer is able to tolerate of a show. That's from the viewer's side. kamisama751 said: A plot hole is a plot hole. It makes the plot worse. If something is bad or not is also based on other things. Don't mind me, I just want to give this piece of information. the problem is plot/story is not everything... it can be more important for you, but you can't apply it for everyone... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
kamisama751 said: that's why plot hole can't justify the series is doing it wrong...Kuma said: the problem is plot/story is not everything... it can be more important for you, but you can't apply it for everyone... I have not said that plot is everything, just that plot holes makes the plot worse. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: "In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot."KoreaWS said: please undertand the logic that used for comedy and apply it in our discussion... do i need to explain? the author even mention "realistic reaction" on there... i don't even use the comedy... just showing that logic is weak infront of perspective...@Kuma You example is a comedy. Please read and try to understand the example I give. It presents a plot hole based on an established realistic setting, no magic, no supernatural, nothing. Do try to understand why it is one before trying to reply. Don't talk about perspective if you can't understand why the valid example given is a plot hole. the problem is thing you meantion is still not estabilished in it's universe logic... so no, not yet... just because it has realistic looking, doesn't mean everything about it will be realistic... author can chose what realistic point he put and what not... but he has to make it clear with viewer... the problem is viewer isn't same... sure i am bad at words and persepctive and i am aware of that... but i want to said plot hole for you =/= plot hole for everyone... and bad pont for evberyone... Not everyone notice plot holes but as I already said, if you logically prove something is a plot hole then everyone should agree unless they prove the contrary. The fact that not everyone is negatively affected by certain plot holes shouldn't mean that there are not, they just refuse to accept it (mostly fanboys). |
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Kuma said: UnpopularAnime said: that's why i am asking...Plot hole definition: In a piece of fiction, a Plot Hole is a completely implausible occurrence or series of events that contradicts logic or previously established events in the story. Includes things such as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. I never talked about setting, I was only talking about plot. A person getting rich, is different than a person being rich. "Includes things such as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters" The character's friends act like he has always been rich. "events happening for no apparent reason" A poor character getting rich is an event. And it happened for no apparent reason. "that's all simply lefting unexplained to build tension for watcher... make watcher guessing and left them wondering for next episode is not bad by anymean... how the is that bad? that's not even plot hole..." Are you referring to the sao example I gave? If so: It's not building tension, it just leaves the viewer confused. Are you really saying that if a character dies, and all the characters know about it, but the viewer doesn't find out until 10 years after(in anime time), it's not a plot hole? By the definition, it is. " implausible occurrence or series of events that contradicts logic or previously established events in the story." person being rich is not bending any logic that estabilized in the shows, except it has seting that force people to do so (i am honestly can't remember any series with this setings), and only MC got speciality out of it and never explained why... person being rich after poor is normal, and not bending any logic estabilished even it's not explained... plot hole is not necessary something that not explained... it can be explained but doesn't make sanse, it still plot hole... and like that, in the end, those "sense" is still personal bias... if the character being unrealistic, if it already estabilished in the shows, then it's not plot hole... just unrealistic setings... and i don't find why it's bad in general.. fiction is different from reality.. no it's not... everythying not necessary explained in beginning... A poor character becoming rich for absolutely no reason is normal? What if your friend suddenly got rich, you ask him how, and he says "oh, idk, i just am now" It wouldn't make sense. I don't know how you don't understand this, but it's not normal for a poor character to be rich for no reason. Say he is homeless, then in the next episode he lives in a mansion, and nothing is explained. He still has no job, but somehow lives in his own mansion. Are you trolling? You were arguing with me - if a character being dead, and all other characters knowing this, but the viewer doesn't know, for 10 years and 10 episodes is a plot hole or not. |
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Kuma said: KoreaWS said: please undertand the logic that used for comedy and apply it in our discussion... do i need to explain? the author even mention "realistic reaction" on there... i don't even use the comedy... just showing that logic is weak infront of perspective...@Kuma You example is a comedy. Please read and try to understand the example I give. It presents a plot hole based on an established realistic setting, no magic, no supernatural, nothing. Do try to understand why it is one before trying to reply. Don't talk about perspective if you can't understand why the valid example given is a plot hole. the problem is thing you meantion is still not estabilished in it's universe logic... so no, not yet... just because it has realistic looking, doesn't mean everything about it will be realistic... author can chose what realistic point he put and what not... but he has to make it clear with viewer... the problem is viewer isn't same... The example has always assumed a realistic setting, where realistic reactions are expected and realistic logic. A simple example. Don't add any unrealistic explanations that are outside it's setting and you will understand the particular example of plot hole in hand. I'm not talking, again, of the impossibility of unrealism, surrealism and whatnot, I'm trying to explain to you why the example in hand is, with the strictly realistic setting there, a plot hole example. |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
The story was good cause the MC chose the right girl (>ლ) Another reason why Tatami Galaxy is bad. |
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| "It doesn't have a plot, so it's bad" - one of the most stupid reasons to find something bad but whatever makes you guys happy. |
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Snappynator said: lol what's wrong with this... plot is the mean reason why I watch anime"It doesn't have a plot, so it's bad" - one of the most stupid reasons to find something bad but whatever makes you guys happy. |
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tragedydesu said: Snappynator said: lol what's wrong with this... plot is the mean reason why I watch anime"It doesn't have a plot, so it's bad" - one of the most stupid reasons to find something bad but whatever makes you guys happy. The kind reason I watch anime is lewd female leads. |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
tragedydesu said: Because plot isn't everything. A show can still be good, without having an overall plot.Snappynator said: lol what's wrong with this... plot is the mean reason why I watch anime"It doesn't have a plot, so it's bad" - one of the most stupid reasons to find something bad but whatever makes you guys happy. |
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kamisama751 said: maybe i worded it wrong, but what i mean a plot hole can't justify a series will bad generaly... yes it's affected, but it can't be solely reason...Kuma said: that's why plot hole can't justify the series is doing it wrong... Nope, plot holes always makes the plot worse, no matter if you care about it or not. Therefore, having plot holes means you have done something wrong, which does not automatically lead to a bad series since the quality is also based on other things. zal said: again, i already mention about suspension of disbelive... i already said again.. yes, plot hole is plot hole, but the amount of it and how it afftected to series is vary from person to person... "In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot." Not everyone notice plot holes but as I already said, if you logically prove something is a plot hole then everyone should agree unless they prove the contrary. The fact that not everyone is negatively affected by certain plot holes shouldn't mean that there are not, they just refuse to accept it (mostly fanboys). UnpopularAnime said: > unexplained is normal, mistery reason also normal... but no reason? yes wierd.. it still make sanse i would said..A poor character becoming rich for absolutely no reason is normal? What if your friend suddenly got rich, you ask him how, and he says "oh, idk, i just am now" It wouldn't make sense. I don't know how you don't understand this, but it's not normal for a poor character to be rich for no reason. Say he is homeless, then in the next episode he lives in a mansion, and nothing is explained. He still has no job, but somehow lives in his own mansion. Are you trolling? You were arguing with me - if a character being dead, and all other characters knowing this, but the viewer doesn't know, for 10 years and 10 episodes is a plot hole or not. lets saing side character being rich after their marketing is succesful, than it's enough... is it necessary to find every each point how he got that? excpt the series theme it self is merchenaries... > again, the author can intended it (don't give explanation) to do that to left it unexplained... many series does that.. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
UnpopularAnime said: Sorry but it is not Kuma's fault it is yours. That example has no ground to stand, no professional writer would make a poor character in a rich one without even attempting to explain it. Think of a more credible example or take it from a show you have in common with kuma.Kuma said: that's why i am asking... " implausible occurrence or series of events that contradicts logic or previously established events in the story." person being rich is not bending any logic that estabilized in the shows, except it has seting that force people to do so (i am honestly can't remember any series with this setings), and only MC got speciality out of it and never explained why... person being rich after poor is normal, and not bending any logic estabilished even it's not explained... plot hole is not necessary something that not explained... it can be explained but doesn't make sanse, it still plot hole... and like that, in the end, those "sense" is still personal bias... if the character being unrealistic, if it already estabilished in the shows, then it's not plot hole... just unrealistic setings... and i don't find why it's bad in general.. fiction is different from reality.. no it's not... everythying not necessary explained in beginning... A poor character becoming rich for absolutely no reason is normal? What if your friend suddenly got rich, you ask him how, and he says "oh, idk, i just am now" It wouldn't make sense. I don't know how you don't understand this, but it's not normal for a poor character to be rich for no reason. Say he is homeless, then in the next episode he lives in a mansion, and nothing is explained. He still has no job, but somehow lives in his own mansion. Are you trolling? You were arguing with me - if a character being dead, and all other characters knowing this, but the viewer doesn't know, for 10 years and 10 episodes is a plot hole or not. Snappynator said: Some people just want to see some plot that isn't "plot", what's so wrong with that?"It doesn't have a plot, so it's bad" - one of the most stupid reasons to find something bad but whatever makes you guys happy. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| @KoreaWS euh ..lewd female leads .. well this is a good reason to watch anime =D @Snappynator i know, but if someone told me "i hated X anime because i didn't like the plot" this is a good reason in my opinion |
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KoreaWS said: fiction is not reality... author can also have different understood of rality... not everyone have same meanings of realistic traits... is it soo hard to understand? Kuma said: please undertand the logic that used for comedy and apply it in our discussion... do i need to explain? the author even mention "realistic reaction" on there... i don't even use the comedy... just showing that logic is weak infront of perspective... the problem is thing you meantion is still not estabilished in it's universe logic... so no, not yet... just because it has realistic looking, doesn't mean everything about it will be realistic... author can chose what realistic point he put and what not... but he has to make it clear with viewer... the problem is viewer isn't same... The example has always assumed a realistic setting, where realistic reactions are expected and realistic logic. A simple example. Don't add any unrealistic explanations that are outside it's setting and you will understand the particular example of plot hole in hand. I'm not talking, again, of the impossibility of unrealism, surrealism and whatnot, I'm trying to explain to you why the example in hand is, with the strictly realistic setting there, a plot hole example. you calling a series has plot hole because it has unrealistic point in your opinion isn't mean it well seen unrealistic for everyone.. thus plot hole because of it also not objective... zal said: there is thou... but usally series with sazae-san format...Sorry but it is not Kuma's fault it is yours. That example has no ground to stand, no professional writer would make a poor character in a rich one without even attempting to explain it. Think of a more credible example or take it from a show you have in common with kuma. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| @tragedydesu Huh? I never said you can't hate the plot. I said hating a show with no plot at all, just because it doesn't have a plot, is stupid. I do find hating a show for it's plot agreeable, but hating it for not having one stupid. This especially applies to comedies and SoL that at times doesn't try to have an overall plot to begin with, because it isn't neccessary for what the show is aiming for. |
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Kuma said: In this example it would make no sense at all to not explain it. kamisama751 said: maybe i worded it wrong, but what i mean a plot hole can't justify a series will bad generaly... yes it's affected, but it can't be solely reason...Nope, plot holes always makes the plot worse, no matter if you care about it or not. Therefore, having plot holes means you have done something wrong, which does not automatically lead to a bad series since the quality is also based on other things. zal said: again, i already mention about suspension of disbelive... i already said again.. yes, plot hole is plot hole, but the amount of it and how it afftected to series is vary from person to person... "In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot." Not everyone notice plot holes but as I already said, if you logically prove something is a plot hole then everyone should agree unless they prove the contrary. The fact that not everyone is negatively affected by certain plot holes shouldn't mean that there are not, they just refuse to accept it (mostly fanboys). UnpopularAnime said: > unexplained is normal, mistery reason also normal... but no reason? yes wierd.. it still make sanse i would said..A poor character becoming rich for absolutely no reason is normal? What if your friend suddenly got rich, you ask him how, and he says "oh, idk, i just am now" It wouldn't make sense. I don't know how you don't understand this, but it's not normal for a poor character to be rich for no reason. Say he is homeless, then in the next episode he lives in a mansion, and nothing is explained. He still has no job, but somehow lives in his own mansion. Are you trolling? You were arguing with me - if a character being dead, and all other characters knowing this, but the viewer doesn't know, for 10 years and 10 episodes is a plot hole or not. lets saing side character being rich after their marketing is succesful, than it's enough... is it necessary to find every each point how he got that? excpt the series theme it self is merchenaries... > again, the author can intended it (don't give explanation) to do that to left it unexplained... many series does that.. To not explain isn't "mystery". They have to have some explanation. I never said every single detail, you are arguing that it would be fine with no explanation at all. |
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UnpopularAnime said: In this example it would make no sense at all to not explain it. To not explain isn't "mystery". They have to have some explanation. I never said every single detail, you are arguing that it would be fine with no explanation at all. no, i don't said no explanation at all.. just enough sanse to make plot moving is enough... you can also intended to not explained and showed it later for more impact... lets take example, why makoto act soo retard? wht's reason behind such a thing? is his parent abusive? is he has bad background? is that ever explained? can i called it plot hole? stop giving me bullshit generalization "every teen is horny teen" argument... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
zal said: UnpopularAnime said: Sorry but it is not Kuma's fault it is yours. That example has no ground to stand, no professional writer would make a poor character in a rich one without even attempting to explain it. Think of a more credible example or take it from a show you have in common with kuma.A poor character becoming rich for absolutely no reason is normal? What if your friend suddenly got rich, you ask him how, and he says "oh, idk, i just am now" It wouldn't make sense. I don't know how you don't understand this, but it's not normal for a poor character to be rich for no reason. Say he is homeless, then in the next episode he lives in a mansion, and nothing is explained. He still has no job, but somehow lives in his own mansion. Are you trolling? You were arguing with me - if a character being dead, and all other characters knowing this, but the viewer doesn't know, for 10 years and 10 episodes is a plot hole or not. Snappynator said: Some people just want to see some plot that isn't "plot", what's so wrong with that?"It doesn't have a plot, so it's bad" - one of the most stupid reasons to find something bad but whatever makes you guys happy. That's the point, I made up an example that would never make sense to make it easier to explain. As you said, no professional writer would leave a plot hole like this, Kuma is saying that it wouldn't be a problem. That is what's being argued. |
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Kuma said: Sure, I agree with that. It's just that you said "plot hole =/= plot hole for everyone" which I disagree with. Some don't notice because of suspension of disbelief or doesn't mind. However when in front of the proof of the plot hole reasonable people would just accept it but not necessarily change opinion about the show. I think the awareness of the plot holes should be more objective but considering it bad or not bad is mostly subjective. And I agree that "plot hole =/= bad show", there are other elements to be taken in consideration.zal said: again, i already mention about suspension of disbelive... i already said again.. yes, plot hole is plot hole, but the amount of it and how it afftected to series is vary from person to person... "In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot." Not everyone notice plot holes but as I already said, if you logically prove something is a plot hole then everyone should agree unless they prove the contrary. The fact that not everyone is negatively affected by certain plot holes shouldn't mean that there are not, they just refuse to accept it (mostly fanboys). Kuma said: I was taking in consideration more serious stuff. I think that this kind of story has a new premise for each mini story so it is an exception.zal said: there is thou... but usally series with sazae-san format...Sorry but it is not Kuma's fault it is yours. That example has no ground to stand, no professional writer would make a poor character in a rich one without even attempting to explain it. Think of a more credible example or take it from a show you have in common with kuma. UnpopularAnime said: I think that discussion is a mess because of your poor example that lack context.zal said: Sorry but it is not Kuma's fault it is yours. That example has no ground to stand, no professional writer would make a poor character in a rich one without even attempting to explain it. Think of a more credible example or take it from a show you have in common with kuma. Some people just want to see some plot that isn't "plot", what's so wrong with that? That's the point, I made up an example that would never make sense to make it easier to explain. As you said, no professional writer would leave a plot hole like this, Kuma is saying that it wouldn't be a problem. That is what's being argued. |
TyrelMay 24, 2016 2:53 PM
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| @Snappynator some people don't know what plot it is.. what people refer to "plot" this days is "overreaching plot"... they don't know shows that called "plotless" also has their own plot type... let them be... i can't even name a show that plotless... @zal > i don't intended that you can disregard plot hole just because you don't think so... what i mean is the effect my vary depend on person... exactly what you said... > eh.. some sazae-san shows is very serious thou.,.. like black jack, koroshiya, golgo 13, ETC... |
KumaMay 24, 2016 11:11 AM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: Why didn't you say so?UnpopularAnime said: In this example it would make no sense at all to not explain it. To not explain isn't "mystery". They have to have some explanation. I never said every single detail, you are arguing that it would be fine with no explanation at all. no, i don't said no explanation at all.. just enough sanse to make plot moving is enough... you can also intended to not explained and showed it later for more impact... lets take example, why makoto act soo retard? wht's reason behind such a thing? is his parent abusive? is he has bad background? is that ever explained? can i called it plot hole? stop giving me bullshit generalization "every teen is horny teen" argument... Of course not every thing needs to be explained, but somethings, such as a character becoming rich, does. It's different if the character isn't telling anyone about it, and only the newly rich character knows why, but when all the other characters know and act like it's always been like this, it is a problem. So with this extreme example, if a plot hole like this exists in an anime, then it has a problem. |
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| @zal [/quote]I think that discussion is a mess because of your poor example that lack context.[/quote] What more context does it need? A poor character becomes rich, all characters know why that character is rich, act like he has always been rich, but the viewer gets no explanation. Anything else doesn't matter at all, something unexplained happened, that changed all the characters' lives. |
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