Serial Experiments Lain [Abandoned Thread]

@traed

"How so? It had people literally dying because of their obsession with it"

If you're talking about the people who couldn't tell the difference between PhantomA and real life, it's never well explained how technology could cause them to hallucinate so badly, especially since they don't seem to be using virtual reality technology.

More broadly speaking, the Wired is never clearly defined. How is it that people are manifesting inside the Wired without using VR tech? Why do people believe dying will allow them to be uploaded into the Wired? How can music wipe people's memories? The show simply asserts ways in which reality and technology merge but the only explanation given for this is that code is inserted in the IPv7 that resonates at the earth's frequency. If the show doesn't clearly define the technology and just makes technology do whatever the writers want, then I can't see how this shows man's relationship with technology very well.

"and it did show it can be used as a tool to communicate with people anywhere and give you access to information at the tip of your fingers."

Yes, that's what the internet is by definition. Any story having the internet would necessarily show this.

"And? Pointing out the problems of that isnt meaningless. Though i wasnt talking about journalism only but like how that one version of Lain spread rumors about Alice for example."


You said "Only people that don't understand it would say it's shallow" but I find this idea rather superficial. School rumors like that of Alice spread regardless of technology, through word of mouth. And that's fine, because you can show the specific way in which this behavior interacts with the web. However, the way that they implemented this is by having a evil manifestation of Lain, that's somehow formed from internet urban legends, physically appear in the real world. That's just not how technology works. In a literal sense at least. If the point was to show how people use technology to deceive each other and how this drives them apart, it's a very convoluted way of doing so. The impact of the point as a prescriptive warning to people regarding their tech use in real life is dulled as a result.

In general it's never even explained how the rumors of Lain/God of the Wired even emerge or what these rumors even entail. Now, we do see a brief scene of Lain staring at her screen and absorbing news, gossip, and blackmail. And Lain asks people on the internet about things like the Knights, PhantomA, and KIDS. From this I don't see how SEL depicts technology bringing people together, but there are reasonable depictions of all the loose information out there on the internet. However, the vast majority of SEL is committed to showing how reality is blurring with the Wired.

"I never said it was dissociative identity disorder necessarily. It is more likely along the lines of online personas, different aspects of the psyche (possibly ego, id, superego) and creations of rumours and peoples subjective interpretations. This seems to be what you didnt get how a big theme in the show is about how information influences reality and it also shown in the game too so it is definitely the case. People can act online in ways they wouldnt in person since sometimes they use it as an outlet. You also have to keep in mind it is implied Lain possibly isnt even human to begin with which is shown in dialogue with her dad late in the series so you dont have to assume she has to closely match existing mental illnesses it could be a bug in program or multiple versions of her exist trained on different data."

Lain DOES change her personality to being more assertive as she gets more addicted to the Wired, and she's shown more comfortable and extraverted talking to people online than she does in real life. That's all reasonable and good commentary on how people's identities are affected by the internet. However, SEL also makes leaps here that somewhat negates its insight. As I've already mentioned, the origin of the Lain rumors is not explained and neither is the coalescing of these digital rumors into personalities. Then, when you simply have Lain's personality be overwritten by Lain of the Wired when she's online, or when she encounters evil Lain, I don't see how this provides effective commentary on how people's identities are affected by the internet. Sure, there are different perceptions of people on the internet, but this doesn't cause an identity crisis that's related to different parts of the psyche by itself, the same way a politician or celebrity wouldn't have an identity crisis just because the tabloids sell a version of their persona. An identity crisis might be more relevant if the person actively creates different online personas but that's not what Lain does. Those other versions of Lain are just straight up different people that aren't part of her psyche. By setting up this convoluted backstory for Lain, SEL divorces her case from real people and this muddies its commentary on technology and identity.

"As i already said technology can act as a distraction or it can enhance communication as well as distort it. For example communication with text alone you lose information from body language and facial expressions. You could have a bunch of people right next to eachother but not communicating with eachother from only looking at their phones which makes sense for strangers but this happens with friends and romantic partners too."

SEL seems to overwhelmingly represent technology in a negative light. But even besides that, as I said above, it has a muddy depiction of technology, so without clarity into things like how the Wired works I can't pull much from its depiction of how it can distort or enhance communication.

"It had a lot of ideas going at once too many to express in full depth explicitly but you do see these things just it isnt obvious at first glance."

Yeah, so if it has a bunch of ideas that it lightly touches on, with tenuous connections between them, then it's as wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle.

"Youre taking things too literally but like I said it covers repeatedly how information is what creates subjective reality and that information is spread influencing people's thoughts and actions. When people are connected to eachother on a global scale it means people dont only act only as individuals but begin thinking like a massive hive mind and there has been real research into this these days i recall hearing about. Not sure if i can find the papers on it at the moment. Anyway like in the show it is thought this is like an evolution of mankind."

In general, the point of information creating a subjective reality that influences people is obvious. If I lie to someone and they believe it, then they operate on that lie. This is akin to saying the sky is blue. Even so, with regards to this point, SEL devotes only brief scenes of Lain staring at her screen absorbing news, the Knights influencing people to commit suicide, and I guess you could also count the Alice rumors. Other than that, the focus of the show is showing how the Wired is merging with reality in a literal way. Code literally affects reality. You can erase people's memories. With respect to the articulation of the impact of technology, naturally a show has to be clear about what that technology does and it has to be plausible. Otherwise, sure, you can interpret everything SEL does metaphorically, but all you're left with a general statement like information influences people's subjective reality. For instance, your point about people behaving like a massive hive mind due to global connection is not supported in the show itself.

@Recynon
"If you're talking about the people who couldn't tell the difference between PhantomA and real life, it's never well explained how technology could cause them to hallucinate so badly, especially since they don't seem to be using virtual reality technology."
It's explained enough. KIDS exists. Wired exists. Knights use KIDS in combination with Wired to hack people's mind without the need of hardware.
Why is there no VR helmets or smth like that? Because the separating line between real world and Wired being unclear is a major component of the anime and VR helmets make it very clear. In episode 11, the anime has reached a point where it wants to make it clear that Lain is completely indulged in the Wired and thus they show her connected to a bunch of wires to unambiguously communicate this to the viewer.

"More broadly speaking, the Wired is never clearly defined. How is it that people are manifesting inside the Wired without using VR tech? Why do people believe dying will allow them to be uploaded into the Wired? How can music wipe people's memories? The show simply asserts ways in which reality and technology merge but the only explanation given for this is that code is inserted in the IPv7 that resonates at the earth's frequency. If the show doesn't clearly define the technology and just makes technology do whatever the writers want, then I can't see how this shows man's relationship with technology very well."
No, it doesn't matter. Just like it doesn't matter how the cyberbrains in GitS are made, or the psychic stuff in Akira, or the replicants in Blade Runner.
The Wired functions like the internet, so lets see how people respond to this. That's all that matters. The techno babble is just aesthetic to make it more entertaining.

"Yeah, so if it has a bunch of ideas that it lightly touches on, with tenuous connections between them, then it's as wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle."
There is no other anime that explores the relationship between people and the internet as in-depth as SEL. It shows step by step how Lain becomes immersed and dependent on the Wired. The addition of supernatural elements doesn't negate this, if anything it strengthens it through exaggeration. Her literally becoming god of the Wired is a creative way to show how far removed from reality yet proficient at manuevering in the Wired she ends up becoming.

@MizunoWaveRider

"It's explained enough. KIDS exists. Wired exists. Knights use KIDS in combination with Wired to hack people's mind without the need of hardware."

KIDS harvests psi, which is described as "good intuition", enough to physically bend a spoon. So it's telekinetic energy. How does telekinetic energy translate to telepathic energy? Furthermore, it's only explained that they're able to store the energy. They'd have to build a machine capable of using that energy to reach specific people over long distances to hack their minds so hardware would still be needed.

"Why is there no VR helmets or smth like that? Because the separating line between real world and Wired being unclear is a major component of the anime and VR helmets make it very clear. In episode 11, the anime has reached a point where it wants to make it clear that Lain is completely indulged in the Wired and thus they show her connected to a bunch of wires to unambiguously communicate this to the viewer."


That's the whole point of good scifi exploration: to show concrete ways in which technology affects us. The whole point of the show is that the Wired is blending into reality and people keep saying how prophetic this is but the anime never justifies this point. Like I said, it's correct in a metaphorical way but you can't attribute depth/insight/relevance to it because the way it shows this happening is completely divorced from reality and thus doesn't portray the nuances of how technology affects us. Lain being connected to a bunch of wires is also just a broad symbolic point. But for example, we're not literally connected to a bunch of wires and yet we're still deeply immersed in technology in various different ways. Lain becomes immersed in the internet because she finds out her life was fake, but not as a natural consequence of simply browsing the web. The broad point that the line between the real world and the virtual world is blurring can be illustrated using clearly defined concepts and THAT is what brings depth to the idea.

"No, it doesn't matter. Just like it doesn't matter how the cyberbrains in GitS are made, or the psychic stuff in Akira, or the replicants in Blade Runner.
The Wired functions like the internet, so lets see how people respond to this. That's all that matters. The techno babble is just aesthetic to make it more entertaining."

I haven't see Akira, but I'd say that while all scifi takes some leaps, there's a big difference between cyberbrains/replicants and changing the fabric of reality itself. Cyberbrains/replicants much closer to being at least plausible and moreover they're at least explained in a way that makes sense. People have parts of their brains replaced by cybernetic implants, which allows the organic matter to interface with wireless technology. We have real life technology that allows people to give commands to technology using tech that physically attaches to our heads and responds to brainwaves.  Replicants are born of artificial wombs. But if you're making your fictional technology do stuff that our real life tech is not even remotely close to doing, and even breaks the laws of physics, then you can't draw connections to present real life it nor a possible real life future. At best you'd have a magic system that we simply accept, but more on that later. The Wired functions like the internet in parts but those are not the parts that are played up. The series combines the internet with uploading consciousness and reality alteration and then conflates the consequences of those three concepts.

By contrast, take Pantheon, which basically does everything SEL tries to do but realizes the concepts. People manifest as avatars online using VR tech and VR suits for sensation. People are uploaded on the internet through a machine that slices open their brain and scans them. The internet "merges" with reality because 1) the internet is able to simulate all physical sensations so it becomes reality for uploaded people and 2) the internet controls so much machine functionality in the real world that those who wield power on the internet will be able to do a lot in the real world. Because things are more clearly defined, explained, and plausible, the discussion that arises from Pantheon is much more rich in all the little ways in which the fictional technology would affect the world at large and people's lives.

"There is no other anime that explores the relationship between people and the internet as in-depth as SEL. It shows step by step how Lain becomes immersed and dependent on the Wired. The addition of supernatural elements doesn't negate this, if anything it strengthens it through exaggeration. Her literally becoming god of the Wired is a creative way to show how far removed from reality yet proficient at manuevering in the Wired she ends up becoming."

Case in point: you're making a claim that the anime explores the relationship between people and the internet as we know it in real life, but a good portion of the Wired as shown in SEL is divorced from reality. If it's not clear how it functions and it's not remotely plausible, how can the series properly explore how people respond to it? I can't sit around and discuss whether or not I'd like to use the Wired, or the societal implications of the Wired because I don't know how projecting my consciousness into the Wired works and because rewriting code does not literally rewrite reality. The series doesn't so much explore the internet as it does uploaded consciousness and metaphysics, because the addition of supernatural elements would in fact radically shift our relationship with the internet/technology so much that it redefines the discussion of our relationship with the internet/technology, as opposed to further illuminating our relationship as is. Making all your points metaphorically or symbolically isn't exploring things in-depth; that's just broad and superficial. For example, her becoming god is a product of her having always been god and simply remembering that she was. Thus, the show doesn't show how being removed from reality is a natural consequence of using the internet. The most it shows towards our actual relationship with the web is Lain sitting there and soaking up gossip and news from the web and it looks like she's addicted to it but that's one scene. In fact, the anime doesn't devote much attention to the step by step integration of Lain with the internet. We see her asking around about the Knights and PhantomA but we don't see her developing her online personality or the majority of the interactions she has with her online friends.

So at best, SEL ends up with a magic system that has little relevance to real life technology. Ok, sure, lots of fantasy stories do that. But SEL doesn't even clearly define such a magic system and doesn't actually explore it. It just has a bunch of weird stuff happening, and then Lain is God, and makes a world-altering decision. But if people were code, could these people then live forever? Could we cure diseases and solve world hunger? Would there be a fight over processing power? Could you create a simulation inside of this simulation? What about even more basic things, like how other people besides Lain use the Wired in positive ways? These are all questions that Pantheon actually answers, so even if you find its tech more akin to magic, it does explore and clearly define its own magic system. Same with Ghost in the Shell with respect to its own concepts.

@Recynon
I will ignore all redundant points to shorten this down a little.

"So this shows the impact of Konaka's made-up supernatural phenomena on people, not technology."
Science-fiction is always made-up supernatural phenomena. In fact if it's not one, then it isn't science-fiction.

"...because it wouldn’t demonstrate that being an abstract mindfuck is good in general."
But if a character in your story is getting mindfucked, then you need to convey that to the audience somehow. And if you effectively accomplish that by having the audience themselves experience a mindfuck, then how is that not good? What do you want? A textbox that says: 'character A is now getting mindfucked'?

"I also don’t remember that the show explicitly said Eiri brainwashed people."
Lain was brainwashed in episode 9 when she took the chip that Taro gave her, which was meant to overwrite Lain's memories and make Eiri visible to her. The chip was provided by the Knights but since the Knights worship Eiri, who was a conspiracy theory within the Wired, I'm referring to it as Eiri brainwashing Lain.
In the beginning of episode 10 then, when Eiri is physically first introduced, Lain and Eiri switch positions and Eiri is basically speaking for Lain while Lain is speaking for Eiri, but as the conversation goes on it becomes clear Eiri is more and more leading the conversation into the direction he wants. The implication is that Eiri makes Lain say and believe things.

When you go back to the earlier episodes you can also hear Eiri's voice in the background from time to time talking to Lain, telling her "how the world works" (like in the beginning of episode 5).


"I don’t think it was ever clear why the Knights believed so passionately in the Lain prophecy."
Yeah but it doesn't really matter, the prophecy stuff was just an episode 5 thing anyway and it mainly concerned Lain's sister. Their actual goal was to bring Eiri to life and Lain served as a vessel.

"Well, no, because the supernatural elements make it so that Lain becomes God due to supernatural BS and not because she becomes better at navigating the internet. More to the point, she only really starts to throw herself to the Wired when she discovers that her entire life was a lie"
She becomes removed from reality by being indoctrinated and brainwashed by believing all the stuff she heard in the Wired. That started before she was told that her family is fake, her getting convinced that her family is fake and that she isn't human is just the pinnacle of that indoctrination.

"Saying that you put code that “resonates” at the earth’s frequency into the internet protocol, and that’s what causes the internet to influence reality… I don’t see how that can be consider good development of an idea."
How does worldbuilding/techno babble decide how far developed an idea is?
Depth or development is in regards to story and characters, not in regards to techno babble. Although SEL has some of the best techno babble ever, episode 9 is basically a little microcosmos of conspiracy theories making up the supposed backstory of the Wired. You can look them all up, it's pretty cool.

"Sure, the internet has distorted reality, in the sense that we see the world through Youtubers, TikTok vids and Instagram models, ie. the mundanities of reality get left out, but that’s not the message that SEL is projecting. SEL’s message misses the nuance of this phenomenon by saying that we literally can’t trust our senses and diving into general solipsism."
There is no intended message in SEL, it's just about showing Lain's perspective and allowing the viewer to share that perspective. I also think that's the main issue here, you feel entitled to have a omnipresent birdeye view perspective of the show where you have perfect understanding of everything that's going on, but that's not the goal of the show. The goal is to share the same confusion and loss of reality that Lain is experiencing.

"You could test that hypothesis by watching it, if even out of spite for me."
LOL (I might actually)

"Right, instead it just uses ambiguous magic so that we can’t compare it to real life."
What? Are you seriously arguing that SEL would gain in substance if it had VR helmets? It's even a plot-point in Lain that no helmets are needed.
As if you can compare the VR helmets of sci-fi stories (or any other technology in there) accurately to real-life. Indeed, if you could then it would cease to be sci-fi. It's all magic excused by techno babble, always has been. It's not about realism, you just want something you can see and touch.

"SAO doesn’t go into the details of VR tech and its broader implications on society. People discuss Lain to this day and to this day I still haven’t found a single profound thought arising from such discussions. Probably because most of the discussion is about what actually transpired in the series."
There is no discussion on VR tech in the series, it's about the internet. VR tech discussions are all empty of substance anyway. When a sci-fi stories uses virtual realities it's either rule of cool (like Tron) or stands metaphorical for something else (like Matrix).
I'm not discussing what transpired in the series, I already know what the show wants the audience to know, because it explained or showed them. You're asking for things you didn't understand, which I answer, or you ask for things that the show deliberately keeps ambiguous. The main thing is that you just don't like ambiguity. But debating whether or not using helmets would've made SEL better is just silly to me.

"Firstly, whether she becomes God or just starts hallucinating everything, neither are natural consequences of sitting in front of a PC consuming information. Secondly, all evidence indicates that she at least has reality altering powers and isn’t human."
Because her memories and perception was altered, and those make up her reality. I explained this before. You're still trying to look at it from all-seeing birdeye view, but it's about viewing it from Lain's perspective which is obscured.

"I’m not sure what you’re referring to in terms of getting scammed and hiding it from her friends. She is more distant because she finds that “the real world isn’t real” and because she finds out her entire life is a lie and that there are other versions of herself."
She got scammed by the Knights and found out about it in episode 6 when they used KIDS to make a giant projection of Lain in the sky (which will later be used to project Eiri). In episode 8 the Knights stole Lain's identity to prank Alice to separate her from Lain. Lain then reversed that but since she couldn't delete her own memories she started isolating herself as she felt disconnected from the others.


"Sure, something like Perfect Blue is a great example of surreal, confusing presentation highlighting a person’s mental illness. But my argument is that the abstract presentation of SEL (along with it making technology doing whatever it wants to do as I explained above) in this case doesn’t make things more visceral to the viewer but rather just makes things confusing and further departed from reality. Like yeah, I get the broad point that a person like Lain can become more withdrawn from real life as they’re more immersed in the internet. But the process of her doubting her identity and reality and finding out her life was a lie, I don’t see how that accentuates a person’s descent into the internet rabbit hole. It feels more like taking it in another direction. A person usually indulges in the internet over reality because there’s something that’s more alluring and addictive to it. I don’t get that feeling when watching SEL. Where Perfect Blue makes me feel the MC’s fear and paranoia because she was being stalked, I didn’t have the slightest clue that Lain was feeling shameful because she got scammed. And we see given our wildly different interpretations of what Lain was going through that SEL doesn’t make Lain’s experience clearer."
I don't think it's necessarily that something about the internet is addictive, I think if a person has a fulfilling real life (social life) then they don't run much of a danger of escaping into the internet. But Lain's social life is kinda empty given her mother doesn't care for her, her father is more interested in computers than her, and her classmates (except for Alice) are too far off from her in terms of interests. It was the same with Chisa but there it was even worse because she didn't even have a Alice. If Lain didn't have Alice she also would've committed suicide in episode 11. So I don't think it's so much about specifying the dangers of the internet but rather that a lack of satisfaction in one's social life drives us into the virtual realities that might end up substituting our real life. You can of course argue it's too over the top and not realistic enough but that's just how sci-fi works. If it was more realistic it would be more like something like Welcome to the NHK, which has a similar topic but no hard sci-fi elements like SEL and therefore is not categorized as sci-fi at all.

Overall I think the main issues are:
1. You don't like ambiguity, you want everything to be crystal clear, and you think the show deliberately confusing you is pretentious.
2. You don't understand (or don't want to accept) that it's not about observing Lain from an all-knowing audience perspective, but that the viewer is supposed to experience the story from protagonist's perspective and therefore show her confusion.
If you don't like that then fair. If you don't see value in what Lain is doing then I disagree. If you still think SEL should have had helmets then NO!
Bye