| @Peaceful_Critic That would be a sound interpretation of empowering female characters. It's the very reason Bayonetta is often brought up as an example of such, the subject as to the target demographic and many other factors has led to some doubt in regards to this status. I, myself, am not entirely ready to comment on it. And yes, I would say I applied about the same criteria here. I also heavily doubt that many would find their portrayal demeaning, so that's also a factor and them be using as an example of the opposite just made me confused. |
 |
| what do you mean current, it has been like this since the 90’s |
 |
Inukanura said: what do you mean current, it has been like this since the 90’s Yeah pretty much, but now it's even more present somehow |
| My youtube channel about music and anime : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_rrNoYApg1VQ-PIT7jZ37Q |
Tylaen said: TolkienFan365 said: The defense that due to women themselves defending this very case isn’t solid ground to base much on. There have been gay men who actively oppose law which would benefit their sexuality but hinder it. You didn't make the assertion but subscribing to the ideal that objectification is a problem means you have taken a proactive stance against a perceived social ill therefore taking the initiative and therefore needing proof. Also again for said content to be banned or vilified there needs to be actual proof that said practice is wrong. Our age of consent is say higher than it was 100 years ago due to changes in understanding development in people. We realized that individuals that young could be exploited and were not capable of making consent. In the past people as young as 14 were thought to be adults and maturity more expected earlier when that wasn't possible. So therefore we made age restrictions to prevent minors from being exploited. So again you have to provide actual physical proof that said content is the reason for harm that is easy to identify for it to be banned. I haven't seen this outside of just blind assertions without proof. Often the content that has been argued has been harmful to a certain group in this case women is also often defended by women. Sure that doesn't justify anything but in an argument that really is just about blind assertions it doesn't help when the class that is supposedly persecuted by a form of media is arguing in its defense as well. Also I am in the camp all censorship is negative. Anything that is banned will or will eventually have an easily discernible evidence of it causing harm. Otherwise it's just a subjective view that this is bad. I could argue I think Alcohol is bad for society but that is my assertion and there isn't enough evidence that it alone causes social problems (addictive personalities will find other outlets). Plus there are ways to deal with it through emphasizing not to drink and drive encouraging moderate consumption, have groups to help with substance addiction etc. So even if problems can be caused by alcohol most people who consume it aren't part of those problems. That doesn't mean we overlook dangers but at the same time you don't condemn the product itself. Most concerns regarding sexual content or how it's used again I think also have easy ways to deal with any potential problems. I never claimed you were against it either but fact is you are cherry picking certain subjective aspects as being problematic and therefore villifying the people in question. Granted I don't know if I really want to read lengthy texts so if you want to clarify specifically how is the anime/manga culture objectifying women and how specficially is that actually causing a social ill? I mean in general not cherrypicked cases because just because one guy is a creep doesn't mean the fanbase is responsible for that. You find that everywhere. I mean specifically how this culture we have created creates more people who devalue women? Finally even still I would argue your view is more moderate compared to many people in the communities you are agreeing with who very much do view at as basically what would an innate sin they will always have over their head but again I reject it is a thing so I just reject anyone should feel guilt over basically what is oogling drawn characters. Which unlike in real porn or live action is even less of an issue as they quite literally are objects unlike a real actor who has a personality outside of his role. Sure these characters can be animated and have voice actors but at least in the Western community voice actors aren't as well known most are just drawn to the character themself. Plus this is whataboutism but again I get sick of any over infatuation or "objectification" of being mostly attributed to men. One only has to see how certain fangroups dominated by women like say the K-Pop fandom to see that these negative behaviours exist in women. So even if the nature of sexualization did lead to dehumanization which again I reject as I think it's a lack of discernment between reality/entertainment and fiction fact is people who throw out this word like to pick their targets. I rarely see those who decry these acts of women being "objectified" go after similar behavior when targets are men despite it being seen often online. As for the study Chris Ferguson was the author of a study involving looking at sexualization of women in video games and impact on body image. Now, through your text you’ve very concretely prodded my repeatedly for proof, yet I see that you also like myself referred to studies outside of the field of animation itself to back yourself up. Cases like the age of children and alcoholism, alongside your assertion that you’re not up for reading anything lengthy, I am uncertain how I am to respond to your request for proof as neither do you seem to want to engage in the fact that prior material can be provided as a frame for this issue, but you simultaneously draw from past issues. To address what you brought forth yourself, referring to a kotaku article that he had an interview in and I quote. “Arguing that, at the very least, there ought to be more diverse games and ones that present stronger and less sexualized female characters makes sense” Still, I am must point out that I feel dubious to call this case conclusive given the factors of Lara Croft herself overall being a rather moderate example in contrast to what we have in many Japanese games, as well as Japanese media but also due to the statistics published by for example the century-old civil rights nonprofit organization Anti-Defamation League which says that 74% adult gamers experience such harassment. On the basis of that, among other things, I am not wholly convinced of the non-existence of this issue. I will also dispute the claim of the cherry-picking claim. If you want to deconstruct how these parameters I’m using are falsely applied, I would like to have you go over them individually instead of asserting them all to be such so I have an indicator as to how you feel that my reading of a visual medium is off. And no, a fanbase isn’t wholly responsible for the acts of a single individual but the degradation of women isn’t a single fanbase issue. I will not lay claim that anime as the sole harm that causes this issue because it’d discount the centuries of history of women being led around by men due to traditional values alongside the cultural stigma’s outside of European and American soil. This stated the reason I, and others, are calling for less sexualization of the female characters is that tropes which would be expected within the more ecchi genre is not contained there. Example including weirdly shaped clothing that emphasizes a girls breasts, and the groping of said breasts and formfitting outfits with some exception. I refer to the Seven Deadly Sins and Granblue fantasy (A videogame mired in tropes related to traditional anime) as having examples of these. You’re also very welcome to oogle characters but when said character’s sole purpose becomes that, we’re starting to hit an issue with their conception. Also, there are sex-positive feminist though much like you disagree with me, I doubt you’d agree with them over what they’d conceive the meaning of those words as. Now I will say this one final time but the ‘nullifying’ claim that because these women are drawn, they somehow have no impact. These characters are not drawn by computers, they’re drawn by humans, for humans and are largely inspired by humans. I find an issue with the claim that a medium (drawings) have no impact when outside of this specific issue, drawing is a very celebrated skill and many indulge in it due to their own passion. People strive for relatability, and it is often a factor brought up in regards to main character even in animated shows, so forgive me if people’s repeated assertion that “they’re just drawings” is a little dubious. We don’t strive to draw something that has no impact. Yes, it is whataboutism so I will not address it but I will once again say that I agree that we should become better at calling out cases where men are receiving toxicity due to unrealistic expectations. I believe I already agreed with this in the prior two responses as well. Also, while you listed Chris Ferguson, you never told me who this Stenson is? Peaceful_Critic said: You grasp the criteria I'm going for, yes. I will say that in a hypothetical scenario, if it was only 1 out of the 3 you'd have to consider other factors as well. What context is this created within? Who created it? What is their history in regards to this very subject and who is the target demographic.@Tylaen I think a good way to start would be to ask you what makes something objectifying. As far as I understand it, you seem to go by these criteria: -How willing the person is of being viewed in a sexual light -Unconfortableness of said character -Contextual, in-universe, reason for sexual type attire However, does a character need to go by 1 or 2 of these things? Or is it only objectifying if it's all three? Are there other factors to do this aside from the main three you listed? Simultaneously, we'd have to determine if this was an intentional act or if it was done by accident. It's a lot of parameters to look over and even those with 3 factor may not be done with ill intent, as I recently found out that the SAO author was somehow unaware of his rather ill-considered method for creating a villain. (Rape mechanic) Once again as I will continue to say if you make the assertion it is on you to provide proof again you are the one initiating the claim. As for the case of Laura Croft that is debatable about what anime or games we are talking about. Also bringing up the ADL which is hardly non bias you brought up a statistic that I don't see how that relates to the conversation. If you are trying to make the argument harassment in gaming community exists and is common I would agree but that is entirely due to the nature of competitive gaming as any competitive activity like sports also are filled with that stuff due to the fact you are getting out your aggression in an activity. Even degrading sexual remarks are often targeted at men since again it seen as more cutting. Secondly again I am not just referring to you but how in general people who make these claims act and yes in many cases they do hold people or anyone who engages in said activity as basically one who has committed an unrecoverable sin. The first case that weirdly designed clothes that accentate the skin again I don't see how that is causing one actual harm. Sexy designs are attractive the fact said designs exist in my opinion once again don't lead to any actual harm. While you may ignore it some women do enjoy designs like this some don't it's a very subjective opinion. As for 7DS since i have seen a portion of it yeah what would be casual sexual harassment does exist in that show. I won't deny this why a lot of ecchi to me isn't that appealing I will even say I don't think a lot of anime/manga does sexual stuff well outside of mainly hentai dojins (because hentai animated usually isn't good either). The only case I have seen something like this done right was in Dragonball (Goku had never seen a woman before and was a curious kid). That said once again even if I don't like it you would have to once again prove that said content existing actually contributes to women being dehumanized IRL. To take a way way more extreme example if I write a rape fantasy hentai by your argument since that is horrible practice I am actively encouraging people to rape others. The problem with that is many women and men in the BDSM community engage in healthy consent non consent. It's just a fantasy. You are making the assertion that because the series plays off a poor action IRL that somehow it actually is going to encourage said action but I just don't see how it would. Sure you can say it's poor writing or a poor way to have sexiness in your story but there is a very big difference between critiquing poor implementations and accusing the creator of literally dehumanizing women. I mean you critique SAO which again I would probably would agree that the end of S1 wasn't the best way to at least make his character interesting. Rape is often a cheap way to get people to hate a character but again there is a big difference to critique the usage vs claiming said person is actively dehumanizing a whole sex. You are going from just being a poor writer to a horrible person. Lastly why is it wrong for a character to exist for the sole purpose for basically what would be NSFW bait? Tons of NSFW art of men and women exists out there and that is basically it's sole purpose. I don't see anything wrong with that. Just because someone wants to look at art whose only goal is turn you on doesn't mean they actually dehumanize people IRL. Also I mean compared to say actual actors and porn yeah there is a lesser impact. As for Stenson that was the university. |
BilboBaggins365Mar 1, 2020 12:30 PM
Zealox23 said: yes yes aaaand yes. There's the short answer and the long answer. Short answer: Hentai and Ecchi Long answer: Fanservice is like basically obejtifying women to attract potential viewers for anime and to keep those viewers invested although shoujo anime and slice of lifes are the only genres which dont carry this trend. Personally you if you examine the commounity right now you can see that the objectification has spread to the viewers with a majority of viewers now only having sexual desires for female characters. If you think that viewers dont support it you wont believe how deep the objectification go. I met a dude on mal who said this: "I like sexy girls and I want to do alot of stuff with them and the world would be boring without them" and thats one of the nicer comments on the thread. Theres a reason the community ius under attack but we refuse to acknowledge our faults even though some us are showing it off loud and clear that they think of women as objects. So yeah thats one of the faults of the community and the medium itself No and Nooooo Also no you don't understand what objectification is like I am saying to this poster most people literally are just associating with the idea of appealing to straight male sexual interests unlike what it says in the name. Once again it's actually seeing individuals like objects caring little for their emotions or well being (which again is more applicable to IRL anime drawings are objects). Sex appeal is not the same. One the community has always had it's incredibly horny side at least in the past decade when I first got into anime/manga. Secondly once again the assertion is that the anime/manga community objectifies women specifically which trust me it's not just girls. Finally yeah some communities have creeps but then again I don't see how that comment specifically is that bad he is just fantasizing. If there is a less nicer/more dehumanizing comment i will agree that is bad but again that has nothing to do with the community many people don't get boundaries. Again I reject this is a fault of any community and actually when it comes to NSFW stuff this was a good community in helping me realize that I was bi so honestly sometimes some of the openness helped. Most people are fairly respectful even the horny on main guys. Once again there has to be an actually trend shown. Still your claim that the entire community is only focused on sexualization or even compared to most other communities is pretty ludicrous. |
BilboBaggins365Mar 1, 2020 12:31 PM
TolkienFan365 said: Tylaen said: The defense that due to women themselves defending this very case isn’t solid ground to base much on. There have been gay men who actively oppose law which would benefit their sexuality but hinder it. Now, through your text you’ve very concretely prodded my repeatedly for proof, yet I see that you also like myself referred to studies outside of the field of animation itself to back yourself up. Cases like the age of children and alcoholism, alongside your assertion that you’re not up for reading anything lengthy, I am uncertain how I am to respond to your request for proof as neither do you seem to want to engage in the fact that prior material can be provided as a frame for this issue, but you simultaneously draw from past issues. To address what you brought forth yourself, referring to a kotaku article that he had an interview in and I quote. “Arguing that, at the very least, there ought to be more diverse games and ones that present stronger and less sexualized female characters makes sense” Still, I am must point out that I feel dubious to call this case conclusive given the factors of Lara Croft herself overall being a rather moderate example in contrast to what we have in many Japanese games, as well as Japanese media but also due to the statistics published by for example the century-old civil rights nonprofit organization Anti-Defamation League which says that 74% adult gamers experience such harassment. On the basis of that, among other things, I am not wholly convinced of the non-existence of this issue. I will also dispute the claim of the cherry-picking claim. If you want to deconstruct how these parameters I’m using are falsely applied, I would like to have you go over them individually instead of asserting them all to be such so I have an indicator as to how you feel that my reading of a visual medium is off. And no, a fanbase isn’t wholly responsible for the acts of a single individual but the degradation of women isn’t a single fanbase issue. I will not lay claim that anime as the sole harm that causes this issue because it’d discount the centuries of history of women being led around by men due to traditional values alongside the cultural stigma’s outside of European and American soil. This stated the reason I, and others, are calling for less sexualization of the female characters is that tropes which would be expected within the more ecchi genre is not contained there. Example including weirdly shaped clothing that emphasizes a girls breasts, and the groping of said breasts and formfitting outfits with some exception. I refer to the Seven Deadly Sins and Granblue fantasy (A videogame mired in tropes related to traditional anime) as having examples of these. You’re also very welcome to oogle characters but when said character’s sole purpose becomes that, we’re starting to hit an issue with their conception. Also, there are sex-positive feminist though much like you disagree with me, I doubt you’d agree with them over what they’d conceive the meaning of those words as. Now I will say this one final time but the ‘nullifying’ claim that because these women are drawn, they somehow have no impact. These characters are not drawn by computers, they’re drawn by humans, for humans and are largely inspired by humans. I find an issue with the claim that a medium (drawings) have no impact when outside of this specific issue, drawing is a very celebrated skill and many indulge in it due to their own passion. People strive for relatability, and it is often a factor brought up in regards to main character even in animated shows, so forgive me if people’s repeated assertion that “they’re just drawings” is a little dubious. We don’t strive to draw something that has no impact. Yes, it is whataboutism so I will not address it but I will once again say that I agree that we should become better at calling out cases where men are receiving toxicity due to unrealistic expectations. I believe I already agreed with this in the prior two responses as well. Also, while you listed Chris Ferguson, you never told me who this Stenson is? You grasp the criteria I'm going for, yes. I will say that in a hypothetical scenario, if it was only 1 out of the 3 you'd have to consider other factors as well. What context is this created within? Who created it? What is their history in regards to this very subject and who is the target demographic. Simultaneously, we'd have to determine if this was an intentional act or if it was done by accident. It's a lot of parameters to look over and even those with 3 factor may not be done with ill intent, as I recently found out that the SAO author was somehow unaware of his rather ill-considered method for creating a villain. (Rape mechanic) Once again as I will continue to say if you make the assertion it is on you to provide proof again you are the one initiating the claim. As for the case of Laura Croft that is debatable about what anime or games we are talking about. Also bringing up the ADL which is hardly non bias you brought up a statistic that I don't see how that relates to the conversation. If you are trying to make the argument harassment in gaming community exists and is common I would agree but that is entirely due to the nature of competitive gaming as any competitive activity like sports also are filled with that stuff due to the fact you are getting out your aggression in an activity. Even degrading sexual remarks are often targeted at men since again it seen as more cutting. Secondly again I am not just referring to you but how in general people who make these claims act and yes in many cases they do hold people or anyone who engages in said activity as basically one who has committed an unrecoverable sin. The first case that weirdly designed clothes that accentate the skin again I don't see how that is causing one actual harm. Sexy designs are attractive the fact said designs exist in my opinion once again don't lead to any actual harm. While you may ignore it some women do enjoy designs like this some don't it's a very subjective opinion. As for 7DS since i have seen a portion of it yeah what would be casual sexual harassment does exist in that show. I won't deny this why a lot of ecchi to me isn't that appealing I will even say I don't think a lot of anime/manga does sexual stuff well outside of mainly hentai dojins (because hentai animated usually isn't good either). The only case I have seen something like this done right was in Dragonball (Goku had never seen a woman before and was a curious kid). That said once again even if I don't like it you would have to once again prove that said content existing actually contributes to women being dehumanized IRL. To take a way way more extreme example if I write a rape fantasy hentai by your argument since that is horrible practice I am actively encouraging people to rape others. The problem with that is many women and men in the BDSM community engage in healthy consent non consent. It's just a fantasy. You are making the assertion that because the series plays off a poor action IRL that somehow it actually is going to encourage said action but I just don't see how it would. Sure you can say it's poor writing or a poor way to have sexiness in your story but there is a very big difference between critiquing poor implementations and accusing the creator of literally dehumanizing women. I mean you critique SAO which again I would probably would agree that the end of S1 wasn't the best way to at least make his character interesting. Rape is often a cheap way to get people to hate a character but again there is a big difference to critique the usage vs claiming said person is actively dehumanizing a whole sex. You are going from just being a poor writer to a horrible person. Lastly why is it wrong for a character to exist for the sole purpose for basically what would be NSFW bait? Tons of NSFW art of men and women exists out there and that is basically it's sole purpose. I don't see anything wrong with that. Just because someone wants to look at art whose only goal is turn you on doesn't mean they actually dehumanize people IRL. Also I mean compared to say actual actors and porn yeah there is a lesser impact. As for Stenson that was the university. Now, since about the entirety of what you wrote is asking for proof of such claims, I will dumb this pile of text in your lap. It is a summary, so it’s easier for general consumption than a full-on report. Also, you damn well should be aware that peoples aggression isn’t solely due the pressure but also simply due to peoples toxic attitude towards women in general. It's not a coincidence there are more in-general use of female directed insults than male ones. Additional substance on this video series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL0aVqVslSE https://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/girls/report-summary.pdf Also, you can’t bring the BDSM community into the equation as while that is all about being objectified, it is a willing submission and unlike what we’re talking about, it can easily be withdrawn at your discretion. It’s an intimate act, usually between two people in a private space, which is not at all equivalent to this and it’s largely irrelevant to the topic at hand. The rape example was not directed at this conversation and was largely an example of someone being unaware of their ill-considered approach to story-telling. I did not bring such up with you as you largely don’t believe anything fictional could somehow have an impact on us, so degrading the woman’s role in the story to be sexualized motivator for the hero would bear little weight in our exchange. There is nothing wrong with NSFW drawings, nor porn. I do not know why you’re resuming the claim I have an issue with all things nudity because I do not. Please stop going into said territory. I've never claimed all nudity should be banned, nor will I. Thank you for clarifying in regards to Stenson University. |
TylaenMar 1, 2020 12:49 PM
|
Zealox23 said: TolkienFan365 said: No and Nooooo Also no you don't understand what objectification is like I am saying to this poster most people literally are just associating with the idea of appealing to straight male sexual interests unlike what it says in the name. Once again it's actually seeing individuals like objects caring little for their emotions or well being. Sex appeal is not the same. One the community has always had it's incredibly horny side at least in the past decade when I first got into anime/manga. Secondly once again the assertion is that the anime/manga community objectifies women specifically which trust me it's not just girls. Finally yeah some communities have creeps but then again I don't see how that comment specifically is that bad he is just fantasizing. If there is a less nicer/more dehumanizing comment i will agree that is bad but again that has nothing to do with the community many people don't get boundaries. Again I reject this is a fault of any community and actually when it comes to NSFW stuff this was a good community in helping me realize that I was bi so honestly sometimes some of the openness helped. Most people are fairly respectful even the horny on main guys. Once again there has to be an actually trend shown. Still your claim that the entire community is only focused on sexualization or even compared to most other communities is pretty ludicrous. TolkienFan365 said: i deject! You"re thinking of the propotion of the horniness is way too low. so you're once again saying that wow out of 10 guys 1 or 2 are fairly ill mannered and yet an observer would clearly identify that the whole group is wrong. that doesnt happen it always has to be a majority and thus is the fate of the community. Second of all fine they helped you figure out your sexuality but that could have been any number of situations besides the community helping you out it was just coincidence that someone fairly well mannered helped you out but that doesnt mean you can see everyone of the community in a whole new light. furthermore sexuality is objectification. I mean does anyone of this community except a few individuals consider women's feeling when their getting groped, harassed etc. in anime for gags. I mean sure it's comedic but if you observe closely the act itself is objectifying even though for the most part its not that bad. I mean do individuals care about females beside their body parts when they are viewing hentai etc. even normal anime with heavy fanservice. again not all genres are same but most are objectifying. Bro the community could literally be titled creep community i mean the individuals and thier thoughts about objectification are terrifyingly large in number I mean you have experienced the "horny phase of the community" have you not? I do not consider my thoughts ludicrous since the other communities are beyond help and the only community I cherish is the anime community yet it grows corrupted as the days go by. I rest my case.No and Nooooo Also no you don't understand what objectification is like I am saying to this poster most people literally are just associating with the idea of appealing to straight male sexual interests unlike what it says in the name. Once again it's actually seeing individuals like objects caring little for their emotions or well being. Sex appeal is not the same. One the community has always had it's incredibly horny side at least in the past decade when I first got into anime/manga. Secondly once again the assertion is that the anime/manga community objectifies women specifically which trust me it's not just girls. Finally yeah some communities have creeps but then again I don't see how that comment specifically is that bad he is just fantasizing. If there is a less nicer/more dehumanizing comment i will agree that is bad but again that has nothing to do with the community many people don't get boundaries. Again I reject this is a fault of any community and actually when it comes to NSFW stuff this was a good community in helping me realize that I was bi so honestly sometimes some of the openness helped. Most people are fairly respectful even the horny on main guys. Once again there has to be an actually trend shown. Still your claim that the entire community is only focused on sexualization or even compared to most other communities is pretty ludicrous. Lol no it is not objectification very much means reducing someone to being an object honestly this doesn't even have to be around sex. If I see my wife as just someone who makes me food and cleans my house that also would be objectification. As for considering women's feelings because bad things happen lol you know how many women are into consent non consent? (or hey even guys) I am not going to argue sexual harassment in ecchi anime is really that good or even sexy but again you literally don't know what you are arguing. Does said aspect actually lead to dehumanization that is what you have to prove and there is literally no evidence of such. I follow a lot of women NSFW artists on twitter literally how I found out about Interspecies Reviewers was from one of them and many do like fanservice. Again just anecdotal but your examples are insanely anncedotal as well maybe have you considered some women enjoy fanservice. I mean even when it comes to whole accidental grope which isn't really good use of sexual appeal the guy always gets beaten up for it. It's less actual sexy depiction and more cheap slapstick. As also again nope the community has been mostly positive and respectful and I am talk about the actual NSFW hentai side. It's just you anecdotally generalizing a part of the community you simply don't like. |
Tylaen said: TolkienFan365 said: Once again as I will continue to say if you make the assertion it is on you to provide proof again you are the one initiating the claim. As for the case of Laura Croft that is debatable about what anime or games we are talking about. Also bringing up the ADL which is hardly non bias you brought up a statistic that I don't see how that relates to the conversation. If you are trying to make the argument harassment in gaming community exists and is common I would agree but that is entirely due to the nature of competitive gaming as any competitive activity like sports also are filled with that stuff due to the fact you are getting out your aggression in an activity. Even degrading sexual remarks are often targeted at men since again it seen as more cutting. Secondly again I am not just referring to you but how in general people who make these claims act and yes in many cases they do hold people or anyone who engages in said activity as basically one who has committed an unrecoverable sin. The first case that weirdly designed clothes that accentate the skin again I don't see how that is causing one actual harm. Sexy designs are attractive the fact said designs exist in my opinion once again don't lead to any actual harm. While you may ignore it some women do enjoy designs like this some don't it's a very subjective opinion. As for 7DS since i have seen a portion of it yeah what would be casual sexual harassment does exist in that show. I won't deny this why a lot of ecchi to me isn't that appealing I will even say I don't think a lot of anime/manga does sexual stuff well outside of mainly hentai dojins (because hentai animated usually isn't good either). The only case I have seen something like this done right was in Dragonball (Goku had never seen a woman before and was a curious kid). That said once again even if I don't like it you would have to once again prove that said content existing actually contributes to women being dehumanized IRL. To take a way way more extreme example if I write a rape fantasy hentai by your argument since that is horrible practice I am actively encouraging people to rape others. The problem with that is many women and men in the BDSM community engage in healthy consent non consent. It's just a fantasy. You are making the assertion that because the series plays off a poor action IRL that somehow it actually is going to encourage said action but I just don't see how it would. Sure you can say it's poor writing or a poor way to have sexiness in your story but there is a very big difference between critiquing poor implementations and accusing the creator of literally dehumanizing women. I mean you critique SAO which again I would probably would agree that the end of S1 wasn't the best way to at least make his character interesting. Rape is often a cheap way to get people to hate a character but again there is a big difference to critique the usage vs claiming said person is actively dehumanizing a whole sex. You are going from just being a poor writer to a horrible person. Lastly why is it wrong for a character to exist for the sole purpose for basically what would be NSFW bait? Tons of NSFW art of men and women exists out there and that is basically it's sole purpose. I don't see anything wrong with that. Just because someone wants to look at art whose only goal is turn you on doesn't mean they actually dehumanize people IRL. Also I mean compared to say actual actors and porn yeah there is a lesser impact. As for Stenson that was the university. Now, since about the entirety of what you wrote is asking for proof of such claims, I will dumb this pile of text in your lap. It is a summary, so it’s easier for general consumption than a full-on report. Also, you damn well should be aware that peoples aggression isn’t solely due the pressure but also simply due to peoples toxic, additional substance on this video series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL0aVqVslSE https://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/girls/report-summary.pdf Also, you can’t bring the BDSM community into the equation as while that is all about being objectified, it is a willing submission and unlike what we’re talking about, it can easily be withdrawn at your discretion. It’s an intimate act, usually between two people, which is not at all equivalent to this and it’s largely irrelevant to the topic at hand. The rape example was not directed at this conversation and was largely an example of someone being unaware of their ill-considered approach to story-telling. I did not bring such up with you as you largely don’t believe anything fictional could somehow have an impact on us, so degrading the woman’s role in the story to be sexualized motivator for the hero would bear little weight in our exchange. There is nothing wrong with NSFW drawings, nor porn. I do not know why you’re resuming the claim I have an issue with all things nudity because I do not. Please stop going into said territory. Thank you for clarifying in regards to Stenson University. Yeah I can because once again it is a fantasy just like any other in media. These fantasies often contain violent and borderline illegal activities if it wasn't for the fact there is consent. It is not irrelevant because once again it is a fantasy and if said fantasy was impactful one would argue that those participating in it should influence their behavior. So if say a couple engages in consensual non consent since it is a fantasy one would argue the guy should become arguably more aggressive if he is the dom. Arguably actual BDSM should be more impactful than some rape fantasy in a hentai manga because you are actively participating in it. Also secondly the APA guide you linked to me seems to deal with mostly child development from the brief quick read. Some of the examples include toys and ads which fine the argument is that sexual concepts can shape people in their youth. I wouldn't deny that granted I mean unless they have a similar study for men I find it's kinda of dismisses that but okay. Even with the first case that exaggerated proportions are an issue once again this comes from society not emphasizing the difference between reality and fiction. These standards exist for me as well but I don't think they are destructive in the slightest more that people shouldn't idealize to live up to them. Plus once again with some NSFW artists but let's just say designs in general more varied body types is one way to deal with this. Encouraging people to love themselves etc which is pretty common among the NSFW communities at leas the ones I have seen. Thirdly they make the argument that girls seek to make themselves more appealing in general which is something everyone does. Everyone wants to look attractive especially as you get older. I dealt with this myself once I got into my teens especially compared to when I was a kid when I could care less about my appearance. I felt more pressure and insecurity once I got into my teens. Fourth is weird I think the difference between swim suits and sweaters is very much correlation not causation. That is a big reach and doesn't take into account comfort or design as way that could lead to the difference. That if you sexualize yourself you can't concentrate that one should be skeptical of and would need more actual study. I could also argue society makes men be more comfortable around being less clothed once again has to do with society not that art itself is causing it. Also once again the study fails to once again how these emotions are found often in men when it comes to body image. Again I understand it's targeting girls but to me from an anecdotal case guys do feel these things. If you have a study for me specifically the focuses on it I would appreciate it. Literally their own claim is that it is more common in girls which is irrelevent exposure itself should be enough and the swimsuit example which I am just going to dismiss. Most of the others again have to do with body image which I think again has to do with proper differentiation between reality and fiction and just more varied designs. The rest of their study is just about how they seem to mitigate it. Once again literally I still don't see how this really shows anything. That there are physical ideals yeah that people get insecure about those ideals yeah, that encouraging people to live up to those ideals through marketing and ads probably isn't healthy yeah but the actual use of said ideals to me doesn't seem to be a problem and rather what people expect to live up to. That can be fixed outside of just saying said content that has ideals or exists purely for sex appeal should be cut down or always be looked at on an eye of judgment (not critique because again there is a difference). In anime/manga people can cosplay but honestly due to the unrealistic nature i would argue people are more aware of the fact this isn't real and is idealized compared to say those who follow instagram models who regularly use photoshop. I also would argue if desiring to look attractive is objectification I think that kinda cuts the point of the term as again applies to everyone but okay fair this happens in society and can be destructive but once again it's due to our human insecurities. The best way to mitigate that is not to promote ideals as something to live up to or have more varied ideals. Even if anime/manga cut down on this most people still have various ideals of what a women or man should be. I mean just look at various depictions in Renaissance statues. Different than our ideals sure but every society has ideals they want to live up to and insecurities that they don't. |
BilboBaggins365Mar 1, 2020 1:11 PM
Zealox23 said: TolkienFan365 said: i dont see whats the problem here. you just spelled out the meaning and proof of objectification. i mean if reducing someone to an object is objectification then body pillows, fanart, fanfic basically the foundation of the community is objectification itself is it not objectification? heck i just realised your example is not valid in of itself i mean u did ask consent for your wife do those things and she agreed meaning its not objectification since you took into consideration her feelings. The medium itself consists of depictions of creator's minds on screen of females and since they are creations so they cannot give consent so they would be bound to be objectified but if they are actually given feelings and personalities so they wont be objectified. for the anime females not in the category the judges would be females irl who have no problem with it since they have common sense and they know that entertainment does not affect real life yet they fail to observe that common sense within the community is non existent and they do connect entertainment and real life and do objectify females.also excuse me a "part" of the community? ok fine since you boast i lack proof how about you give me proof that a majority of the community is not objectifying and enjoying sexual activity in anime? It is quite enjoyable to view the thinking of individuals such as yourself who dont realize the objectification since its the norm now and dont even realize the gradual decay of morals and the world itself heck at this rate by the time your children are grown up theyll be facing the apocalypse!Lol no it is not objectification very much means reducing someone to being an object honestly this doesn't even have to be around sex. If I see my wife as just someone who makes me food and cleans my house that also would be objectification. As for considering women's feelings because bad things happen lol you know how many women are into consent non consent? (or hey even guys) I am not going to argue sexual harassment in ecchi anime is really that good or even sexy but again you literally don't know what you are arguing. Does said aspect actually lead to dehumanization that is what you have to prove and there is literally no evidence of such. I follow a lot of women NSFW artists on twitter literally how I found out about Interspecies Reviewers was from one of them and many do like fanservice. Again just anecdotal but your examples are insanely anncedotal as well maybe have you considered some women enjoy fanservice. I mean even when it comes to whole accidental grope which isn't really good use of sexual appeal the guy always gets beaten up for it. It's less actual sexy depiction and more cheap slapstick. As also again nope the community has been mostly positive and respectful and I am talk about the actual NSFW hentai side. It's just you anecdotally generalizing a part of the community you simply don't like. Except no because anime characters are drawings they literally are objects women and men however are not so yeah if you use a real person for say your personal wank material without consideration of their feelings sure that would be objectification because you turned a person into an object without consideration for her feelings like you said. Anime characters don't have feelings or emotions though. They are drawings. They are objects and there isn't anything wrong as using them as such. If you get sexual pleasure out of them functionally it's no different than a sex toy. They both are objects not peopl. Everything else you are saying is just generalizations and non sensical break up your paragraphs and I am not the one to provide proof you made the assertion so it is up to you to provide proof not I. Also again tons of women argue against censorship of fanservice so again it depends on the person also no women aren't more entitled to it because everyone can be objectified and sexualized and are. There should be an obvious standard but there isn't. It comes down to that individual subjective feelings. Also if you want to take from that study objectification has always existed since society was invented (as literally making one self appear desirable is objectification). It's not even that bad here compared to the normie communities since you act like we differ from the norm that much go look at social media, beauty influencers etc. At least in this community for the most part people easily understand this is all hyper over-exaggerated fiction. Oh and gradual decay of morals yeah let's go back when marrying minors was the norm, the idea of spousal rape and abuse was normalized or when warfare was common as was war time rape truly the past is where we should look for morality lol. You can't be serious. Not going to act like functionally we are better today but we definitely have better societies that prevent bad behavior at least in the West. |
BilboBaggins365Mar 1, 2020 1:38 PM
Zealox23 said: TolkienFan365 said: oh i have so much to say but clearly now's not the tiime since overcoming you stuborness will need me to rest so look forward to my rebuttal soon Except no because anime characters are drawings they literally are objects women and men however are not so yeah if you use a real person for say your personal wank material without consideration of their feelings sure that would be objectification because you turned a person into an object without consideration for her feelings like you said. Anime characters don't have feelings or emotions though. They are drawings. They are objects and there isn't anything wrong as using them as such. If you get sexual pleasure out of them functionally it's no different than a sex toy. They both are objects not peopl. Everything else you are saying is just generalizations and non sensical break up your paragraphs and I am not the one to provide proof you made the assertion so it is up to you to provide proof not I. Also again tons of women argue against censorship of fanservice so again it depends on the person also no women aren't more entitled to it because everyone can be objectified and sexualized and are. There should be an obvious standard but there isn't. It comes down to that individual subjective feelings. Also if you want to take from that study objectification has always existed since society was invented (as literally making one self appear desirable is objectification). It's not even that bad here compared to the normie communities since you act like we differ from the norm that much go look at social media, beauty influencers etc. At least in this community for the most part people easily understand this is all hyper over-exaggerated fiction. Oh and gradual decay of morals yeah let's go back when marrying minors was the norm, the idea of spousal rape and abuse was normalized or when warfare was common as was war time rape truly the past is where we should look for morality lol. You can't be serious. Not going to act like functionally we are better today but we definitely have better societies that prevent bad behavior at least in the West. I bet you do also it's less stubbornness and the fact you have failed to make one good point. At least Tylaen has actually given some legitimate arguments granted I still disagree how those points are being used but still. Also if you have a lot to say use paragraphs otherwise I am not reading it again. |
Zealox23 said: TolkienFan365 said: rebuttal time don't worry mr.ocd the whole thing is in para graphs I bet you do also it's less stubbornness and the fact you have failed to make one good point. At least Tylaen has actually given some legitimate arguments granted I still disagree how those points are being used but still. Also if you have a lot to say use paragraphs otherwise I am not reading it again. So you're saying that you're not sttuborn yet you agree with Tylaen's arguements but stilll refuse to accept them ? Sounds legit! OK moving on this para will basically rebuttal the things that will be left out of the following ones. uh huh so you're saying it's ok for everyone not just women to be objectified ok. Ok i agree they are generalizations without proof but first of all you are doing the same thing you are also making the assertion that the community is wrongly accused yet i dont find evidence in your sayings besides them helping you find out your sexuality which is completely offtopic. The term general feelings refers to individual feeling being unified about something so in a way it does boil down to one's feelings but generally the non community people's feelings are generalized and have the same personal opinion so your point is invalid. You think other communities on social media don't understand that there is blatant objectification among them? Well you are mistaken they do realize it but choose not to acknowledge it since it's the norm now much like the anime community right now. Moving on I understand that i have failed to highlight the portion of history where i think the morals were correct. What I meant was the beggining of morals and thier implementation and it was the time where all the customs mentioned were nonexistent people were glad to have been free from them and were actually adhering to these morals. In modern times the morals are welldeveloped yet aren't adhered to just like in the distant past the difference being before it was more openly declared but now it is hidden in people's opinions and behaviour etc. Excuse me? Functioning societies in the West? I mean I agree that there are functioning societies in modern times but the west is very well at the bottom of the barrel in regards to that matter I mean It's common knowledge elsewhere that morals are decreasing in value at an accelerating rate in the west than other societies. you fail to recognize that the morals are reverting back to how they used to be and the thinking and mindset of people is displaying objectification greater and greater and yes that is what is bringing about the propesized end of times. That;'s it for the rebuttal and i will now set off to answer the question originally asked in a more welldefined manner in the next post after a bit of a break. No I don't agree with them on the idea that anime/manga fanservice is causing harm what I do agree is things like body issues do exist and women and men are affected but that cutting content like that isn't going to help them since those standards exist within society itself. It's better to promote self acceptance and create other content to deal with that than just restricting access because those elements didn't come out of nowhere so it's best to use that same media to promote good messages while also emphasizing the break between what is real and fiction and not even in anime itself but also this needs to be more emphasized towards more actual harmful depictions like Instagram models and actors since their representations have an actual dose of reality unlike anime with it's huge eyes. Art creates beauty that people want. It is created as a reaction it is not a cause. We have been doing this for centuries and centuries even erotic art even hentai as a concept isn't new in Japan (Shunga). Restricting it doesn't ignore that women and men still will have body issues and many of things brought up in that study. The one thing I do agree is that marketing companies will use the idea of transforming one self to fit certain ideals and that does need to stop because you are blending a fictionalized fantasy with reality. So nothing wrong with Barbie dolls looking the way they do but at the same time young girls need to understand that they are just a fictional depiction and shouldn't worry if they don't look like them. So I agree with some aspects of the study but disagree with some of the conclusions they made and that some experiments had tons of variables that at least in the document weren't accounted for. I am saying that you are taking a massive brush and labeling said content as harmful and your only justification previously was that people can be creeps. Guess what I have seen plenty of creepy behavior on the internet and a lot of it wasn't from our community. If your argument was valid we should have way more issues in the community but i don't believe we do. As for other communities certain people sure feel in general there is this concept of objectification but many can't agree what it is or the solution. It can range from the commercialization of female sex appeal (ban porn/sex negative feminists), only allow certain types (incredibly subjective/sex positive feminism which I think Ty is arguing in favor of) or just Separatist feminism who believe women should break off from men entirely because we are evil beings and this is our nature. This can go even so far to claim men can't be capable of being objectified even if there are industries, marketing and media that say otherwise (doesn't matter if isn't close to as dominant it does exist). Secondly I am History/Finance dual major and I would really like to know what past you speak of? Tons of mythological depictions are incredibly sexual, immoral, violent to our eyes today just read Greek, Egyptian mythology or see practices that have been maintained in other cultures for centuries like the Bacha bazi in Afghanistan. I mean should we go back to molesting young boys like the Spartans did? Or should we marry girls just starting puberty like Samuel de Champlain did at the age of 40? Or should we deform young girls feet so they can't walk because they make them more dainty like they did in North China? Or should we force rape victims to marry their rapists which has and still goes on today? Explain when we were more moral? Name the culture, time period and place. Also yes compared to say the Middle East, Africa and some parts of Asia/Eastern Europe we have the more legal protections and basic rights but I guess it depends if you consider Liberal Democracies an ideal and I do. Despite many of the issues in Western societies and history (that has many dark records) which are numerous I will argue that as a society today these are the best to live in and you are the most safe and protected here. When it comes to common knowledge about morals decreasing where is your data for this among people? Did you account for various variables like faith, philosophy, their definition of morality, political views? In some cultures honour killings are seen as moral practice. You are speaking entirely in generalities with little to no examples, data or evidence. I mean you haven't even defined what you think is actually moral. Again why I at least respected Tylaen (not liked) was because he at least came with sources even though I disagreed where they led that data (the swimsuit example to me was a massive over-reach that didn't account for many different variables for instance) he still provided something and engaged in some form of at least respectful debate. In general I mean if that comes off defensive or triggered fine but I mean even claiming this basically is kinda an insult because you aren't labeling just bad people who prey or look at women as objects to satiate their desires. You are claiming any person forget what their actions or behavior are by consuming certain NSFW content they have dehumanized a woman. To me that is just defamation and an attack on character of what is entirely harmless. I mean again I follow lots of female NSFW accounts, lesbians who like fanservice so making the claim women have claimed..... make sure you said some women and men have claimed anime promotes "objectification" and some men and women have said it doesn't identity means little. People aren't hive minds. Give me actual arguments and proof that correlates with your claim which in your case morality is entirely subjective. I don't believe in moral relativism but I do believe everyone has a version of morality they think is correct for humanity that I personally would find either agreeable or disgusting. At least Tylaen has made a claim he can prove if there was evidence as harm can be quantified and observed. I will continue to say you haven't posted an actual rebuttal you just came in and said the same stuff without any evidence. So again I will say on this dumb topic (which shouldn't even be on the anime discussion board) you guys have little to no evidence and is mostly based off personal feelings of what you think is right and moral. There is no actual case that the anime/manga industry is disproportionately causing certain behaviours nor that it is causing harm at all and that proof once again is on you since you made the claim. I could care less how you feel about how anime sells sex appeal in their shows. That isn't the conversation here the question is does it actually encouraging reducing women down to objects in the fanbase. That is a very different claim. Hey I don't think a lot of typical fanservice is that well done. Though just because I don't think it's well done doesn't mean I am going to claim that the person who created it is evil or that his work should be banned. |
BilboBaggins365Mar 2, 2020 2:12 PM
| Thread Locked This thread has gone on for too long. Goes beyond talking about anime as an entertainment medium to whether or not it objectifies women. Anime Discussion Rule 5: Please refrain from posting thread topics which extend beyond the discussion of anime/manga as an entertainment medium to highly-debated social and/or moral issues. This includes but is not limited to: pedophilia, gender/racial equality, sexual orientation, etc. |
    Summertime days, passing gentlySunlight, leading to an encounter; Dreams that don't want to end Continue onwards toward the next day While she waits in the air. |
More topics from this board
» What will be the next KyoAni project? Tell me your thoughts. ( 1 2 )Pinoffin - Yesterday |
61 |
by billybub
»»
1 minute ago |
|
Poll: » Which is your favourite Anime in this list?PushedCaraway - Yesterday |
41 |
by WatchTillTandava
»»
2 minutes ago |
|
» Which, out of all your favorites, would you be least inclined to recommend to others?WatchTillTandava - 2 hours ago |
15 |
by Spunkert
»»
3 minutes ago |
|
» Favorite characters you think are Sadist, Masochist, or SwitchIpreferEcchi - Yesterday |
6 |
by IpreferEcchi
»»
4 minutes ago |
|
» Is it weird to be attracted to anime characters under the age of 18?bluefin2004 - Yesterday |
43 |
by animegamer245
»»
4 minutes ago |