Regarding opposing Eren

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Dec 2020

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violence is never the answer, my child

May 19, 10:51 PM

#4

MrNatural

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Aug 2024

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Can't really oppose you on this, not everyone who suffers deserves it but it goes both ways, not everyone who suffers is innocent either.

When you are representing your people, they count on you, you can't let your supposed "hero complex" get in between saving the lives of the ones who look up to you. Yes, that no lives are worth taking, but they are worth saving even if you have to do what shouldn't be done. Necessary evil kinda thing. Here in this case, though I get the case of why both sides are "justified" in taking the actions they take, may the part be of Eren's hatred towards other humans, but people look up to them, to keep them safe.

Someone has to take the hard choice in difficult times, I think there exists both types of people like Eren or Armin, though diplomacy should be the first resolution, but when fight comes upon us we shouldn't back down either. The "hard choice" here isnt necessarily justifying genocide, just presents that any decision taken from either side could result in immense suffering for atleast some. People of Marleys weren't so noble either in keeping Eldians in concentration camps their whole lives.

Though this further fuels the cycle of violence and revenge, what it also did was to usher atleast 400-500 years of peace, be it was due to total economic and societal collapse.

That is it.

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May 19, 11:02 PM

#5

MrNatural

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Also if they surrender that's better, there's rules of war you shouldn't harm the people who already surrendered but you should oppress them either. So, I think Eren could have also looked into making them surrender, like how the USA did with japan in WW2, not nuking important administrative regions like Tokyo and Kyoto.

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May 20, 1:14 AM

#6

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The first thing that has to be considered when discussing the ending is that Paradis is explicitly shown to be destroyed in the end anyway. The world's genocidal intent against Eldeans can therefore not be downplayed

Whether this outcome was a result of the partial rumbling that left an equal amount of humans in and out of the walls, or whether it has more to do with things that happened offscreen after, we cant know.

Pragmatically we then need to ask if there was a different hypothetical partial rumbling and subsequent ceasefire period that doesnt lead to Eldeans eventually getting nuked. If there isn't, then you would have to conclude that the only way the Eldeans can survive is if they had done a full rumbling to eliminate the threat completely.

May 20, 1:25 AM

#7

Ken__Kaneki__Kun

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Aug 2024

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Shinotaro said:
Genocide is wrong only if there is no adequate reason to do so but if it's a do or die situation when there are 2 people and one has to shoot the other to live or else he would get shot at, wouldn't every single human shoot the other with sole exception of those who don't cherish their lives or in their imagination are the superficial heroes who would sacrifice their live for other person who they don't even know and is probably your biggest hater. I might be on wrong track with this take but I wish to be educated if I'm on so please be kind and don't just assume me to be a genocidal maniac it's just my opinion and genuine question of curiosity, if you disagree, I would like to hear your take and if it's genuine I would surely like to change mine regarding this matter. Thank you.

Idk much also I’m not that educated in this matter as well but as someone below said that paradis was destroyed in the end anyways, In war, In my Religion, it’s forbidden to kill citizens and people that surrendered. I think:

He should have made it known he was attacking destroyed their forces, trying to do least damage to cities and try to make them surrender.

Before dying could’ve rid the world of titans so that no one would be hated. Also made paradis strong enough by carrying enemy weapons back. (It’s all in theory but better than mass murder)

You are correct to kill other for yourself or your people may be correct but killing innocent people (not purely innocent, their taxes and hate is one of the reasons of the problem) is not the way to go.

May 20, 1:27 AM

#8

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Now, you can think this is good or bad writing idrc, but Eren's lack of intelligence is in fact used as a crutch to create the ending. Someone smarter may have been able to better utilize the power of the founding titan, but bc it's Eren he cooked up this plan where he would Leroy Jenkins in there and create a crisis where his friends come to the rescue and are subsequently hailed as heroes.

This is an obv parallel to the Tybur plotline. And just as in that case, the problem is that Eren's plan only secures the wellbeing of his friends. Just as the fraudulent heroism of the Tyburs only benefitted the Tyburs and left the rest of the Eldeans in a terrible state of affairs. Eren's plan is therefore stupid and selfish. Eren does all the wrong things for all the wrong reasons.

May 20, 2:07 AM

#9

Subxxxx1

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Jun 2022

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And you think the children, the people living in rural areas unaware and the animals that died had anything to do with it? Eren's ideas were wrong and will always be wrong. He needed to be in a mental hospital not in the military. Justify and glorify a criminal when your government does something stupid and tries to eradicate a nation only for them to drop a bomb over ur head and unalive you for something you had no say in.

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May 20, 2:12 AM

#10

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keinboesewicht said:
violence is never the answer, my child

Until you have the right to choose the answer. When you are left in a situation where your own survival is harmed, you will do everything in your power resort to anything just so you can stay alive if you have anyone(even yourself) to live for, to complete the dreams and to provide for ones who are dependent on you. You must kill the other in such a case to survive or with you the lives of several dependents on you will be lost as well. For once you can be a hero to sacrifice yourself but many a times sacrificing yourself may lead to suffering of many more.

May 20, 2:12 AM

#11

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MrNatural said:
Also if they surrender that's better, there's rules of war you shouldn't harm the people who already surrendered but you should oppress them either. So, I think Eren could have also looked into making them surrender, like how the USA did with japan in WW2, not nuking important administrative regions like Tokyo and Kyoto.

As a dramatization of our history, AoT's plot is an edge case that lacks the nuance and defies the logic of our own world. Any viewer can map out second and third order consequences that would aid in decision making, thanks to hundreds of years of basic historical knowledge.

Granted, it is stated Paradis has all the foreign policy wherewithal of but an infant due to mindwiping. What doesn't get a pass however is the rest of the world's reckless assault on what basically translates to a nuclear power in Paradis. How eager they were to trigger a certain nuclear armageddon is hard to excuse, given that they should have anticipated it with the knowledge they had.

May 20, 2:17 AM

#12

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Subxxxx1 said:
And you think the children, the people living in rural areas unaware and the animals that died had anything to do with it? Eren's ideas were wrong and will always be wrong. He needed to be in a mental hospital not in the military. Justify and glorify a criminal when your government does something stupid and tries to eradicate a nation only for them to drop a bomb over ur head and unalive you for something you had no say in.

They provide taxes to the government, they have given them the right to rule over them and choose what's better for them. Killing of innocents is wrong but how would you differentiate who's the one ready to accept Paradis and its people and who is not. For once they can all even agree to accept Paradis and its people but the second Paradis would lose founding titan, there would be the people out there going to eradicate every single one of the devils for future safety from any and every titan possible.

May 20, 2:20 AM

#13

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keinboesewicht said:
violence is never the answer, my child

This shallow thinking is so obviously wrong it is almost not worth rebutting.

Just imagine this. If there is an entity that disregards common law and destroys the lives of others, that force of violence can only be stopped by another force of violence or credible threat thereof. This is the basic principle of law enforcement. In the absence of a counteracting force or its credible threat, bad actors would simply do as they please.

May 20, 2:35 AM

#14

Subxxxx1

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Jun 2022

573

Shinotaro said:

Subxxxx1 said:
And you think the children, the people living in rural areas unaware and the animals that died had anything to do with it? Eren's ideas were wrong and will always be wrong. He needed to be in a mental hospital not in the military. Justify and glorify a criminal when your government does something stupid and tries to eradicate a nation only for them to drop a bomb over ur head and unalive you for something you had no say in.

They provide taxes to the government, they have given them the right to rule over them and choose what's better for them. Killing of innocents is wrong but how would you differentiate who's the one ready to accept Paradis and its people and who is not. For once they can all even agree to accept Paradis and its people but the second Paradis would lose founding titan, there would be the people out there going to eradicate every single one of the devils for future safety from any and every titan possible.

If we go by that mentality, all white people should have been eradicated by now, no? Sl@very? "Even if we stop, they will still provide the same treatment and try to eradicate them thinking they may come in power and get access to nuclear weaponary." By your logic, all nations possessing nuclear weaponary should be targeted. You want everyone to unalive each other and end humanity as a whole? The people are supporting the government cuz they pay taxes is not a very good perspective. War will keep going on. Even with titans being a concept no one remembers, war goes on. That's the message from the ending of AOT. Maintaining a balance is necessary. And genocide shouldn't be a part of war. Unarmed unaware People who did not consent to be soilders in an army getting killed off just cuz they were born on the "wrong side" is really disgusting.

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May 20, 3:59 AM

#15

alpassione

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Genocide isn’t a one-on-one standoff where it’s kill or be killed. It’s systematic, large-scale extermination of entire groups of men, women, children many of whom pose no direct threat. That’s not survival. That’s wiping out everyone just in case someone might hurt you later.

And yeah, sometimes choosing mercy or peace might seem naive or even dangerous cuz history’s full of betrayals. But that doesn’t mean every act of compassion is stupid or suicidal. The Alliance (or the anti-Eren squad) weren’t superficial heroes but they were people who believed that fear doesn’t justify mass murder. Just cuz someone might hurt you doesn’t mean preemptively erasing them all is justified. That’s not self-defense but that’s fear-driven annihilation.

Besides, there were alternative options (50 year plan and variations of it) No, they might not have guaranteed Paradis’ survival 100%, but that remaining percentage even if small mattered. It meant there was still a path forward that didn’t involve committing genocide. Choosing that path would’ve shown the world that Paradis wasn’t the monster they feared and that difference could’ve meant everything.

If we accept the idea that genocide is fine if you feel cornered, then we’re justifying every atrocity in history with “they had their reasons.” Survival instincts are real, but morality is about where you draw the line between protecting yourself and becoming the monster you fear.

May 20, 4:46 AM

#16

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alpassione said:
Genocide isn’t a one-on-one standoff where it’s kill or be killed. It’s systematic, large-scale extermination of entire groups of men, women, children many of whom pose no direct threat. That’s not survival. That’s wiping out everyone just in case someone might hurt you later.

And yeah, sometimes choosing mercy or peace might seem naive or even dangerous cuz history’s full of betrayals. But that doesn’t mean every act of compassion is stupid or suicidal. The Alliance (or the anti-Eren squad) weren’t superficial heroes but they were people who believed that fear doesn’t justify mass murder. Just cuz someone might hurt you doesn’t mean preemptively erasing them all is justified. That’s not self-defense but that’s fear-driven annihilation.

Besides, there were alternative options (50 year plan and variations of it) No, they might not have guaranteed Paradis’ survival 100%, but that remaining percentage even if small mattered. It meant there was still a path forward that didn’t involve committing genocide. Choosing that path would’ve shown the world that Paradis wasn’t the monster they feared and that difference could’ve meant everything.

If we accept the idea that genocide is fine if you feel cornered, then we’re justifying every atrocity in history with “they had their reasons.” Survival instincts are real, but morality is about where you draw the line between protecting yourself and becoming the monster you fear.

From what I have interpreted in AOT, might is a very understatement for plans that world had for the Paradis island and its people. If not have been for the statement of Fritz to "leave them alone or founder will cause the rumbling", the marleyans would have not hesitated to eradicate every single eldian. This is something that anyone who has seen how eldians are treated by outside people would agree on.

May 20, 4:51 AM

#17

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I too agree with the fact that Eren was stupid for choosing genocide but we must know that it's stupid in today's sense. We have years of history that makes us believe in humanity again and lets us to be sympathetic and empathetic, whereas even in real world going back a few hundred years, in the name of nation no soldier of any country would have hesitated in killing innocents of other countries.
Eren might have had the better option of just eradicating Marley which was epicenter of hatred towards Eldians which might have helped in creating Fear in other countries minds and would have left Paradis in a much better situation. But nobody here has faced the trauma of their mother being eaten alive by their step mom so nobody can think what was eren going through.

May 20, 5:07 AM

#18

alpassione

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Reply to Shinotaro

I too agree with the fact that Eren was stupid for choosing genocide but we must know that it's stupid in today's sense. We have years of history that makes us believe in humanity again and lets us to be sympathetic and empathetic, whereas even in real world going back a few hundred years, in the name of nation no soldier of any country would have hesitated in killing innocents of other countries.
Eren might have had the better option of just eradicating Marley which was epicenter of hatred towards Eldians which might have helped in creating Fear in other countries minds and would have left Paradis in a much better situation. But nobody here has faced the trauma of their mother being eaten alive by their step mom so nobody can think what was eren going through.

@Shinotaro I get the idea that what Eren did might seem “less stupid” within the world of AoT because it’s a harsher, crueler place than ours. But even in that world, genocide wasn’t the only or the right answer. There were characters who fought to end the cycle without killing millions. Ppl like Mikasa, Armin and most of the 104th all lived through war, loss, betrayal, and yet still chose a different path. So no, it wasn’t just “stupid in today’s world” it was wrong in AoT world.

And on the trauma point yes, Eren suffered deeply. What he saw would break anyone. But let’s not act like no one in our world have suffered the same amount of trauma as thencharacters in AoT. There are people right now who’ve seen their families slaughtered, homes leveled, lives destroyed and some of them are children. And yet we don’t excuse genocide or mass murder just bcuz someone’s been through hell. If anything, that kind of suffering should make you more compassionate not more destructive.

I actually agree with you that targeting Marley alone, the epicenter of Eldian hatred might have been a more focused (albeit still brutal) move. It could have shocked the world into backing off without wiping out innocent lives across the globe, especially those who had nothing to do with the conflict. In fact, a variation of this was part of the 50-year plan, where the idea was to use the threat of the Rumbling as a nuclear deterrent while gradually strengthening Paradis over the course of five decades. During that time, Historia’s royal bloodline would be passed down to maintain the Founding Titan’s power, and Paradis would slowly integrate with the outside world, not through war, but through strategy and modernization. It wasn’t perfect, and yes, it came with moral compromises, but it was at least trying to avoid full-scale annihilation.

Also remember that Eren’s choice wasn’t just driven by pain but it was twisted by selfishness. He clung to his childhood dream of “freedom,” and when that dream got warped by reality, he decided the entire world had to burn for him to feel free.

So no, genocide wasn’t just “understandable” in the context of the AoT world. It was the easy way out and the cruelest path.

May 20, 6:01 AM

#19

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It is worth noting that Eren extends grace to the world by generously sparing them from complete annihilation, instead choosing to stake Eldeans' survival on the hope of future diplomacy. And it is a weakness of the writing that this ultimately results in the Eldean's demise at the hands of the very people Eren spared.

So what you have is a conflict where one party (Eldeans) unequivocally has the moral highground over an extremely hostile, genocidal group (rest of the world) and they go extinct as a result of not fully committing to the rumbling. It's a terrible implication which i can only hope is unintentional.

May 20, 7:34 AM

#20

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alpassione said:
@Shinotaro I get the idea that what Eren did might seem “less stupid” within the world of AoT because it’s a harsher, crueler place than ours. But even in that world, genocide wasn’t the only or the right answer. There were characters who fought to end the cycle without killing millions. Ppl like Mikasa, Armin and most of the 104th all lived through war, loss, betrayal, and yet still chose a different path. So no, it wasn’t just “stupid in today’s world” it was wrong in AoT world.

And on the trauma point yes, Eren suffered deeply. What he saw would break anyone. But let’s not act like no one in our world have suffered the same amount of trauma as thencharacters in AoT. There are people right now who’ve seen their families slaughtered, homes leveled, lives destroyed and some of them are children. And yet we don’t excuse genocide or mass murder just bcuz someone’s been through hell. If anything, that kind of suffering should make you more compassionate not more destructive.

I actually agree with you that targeting Marley alone, the epicenter of Eldian hatred might have been a more focused (albeit still brutal) move. It could have shocked the world into backing off without wiping out innocent lives across the globe, especially those who had nothing to do with the conflict. In fact, a variation of this was part of the 50-year plan, where the idea was to use the threat of the Rumbling as a nuclear deterrent while gradually strengthening Paradis over the course of five decades. During that time, Historia’s royal bloodline would be passed down to maintain the Founding Titan’s power, and Paradis would slowly integrate with the outside world, not through war, but through strategy and modernization. It wasn’t perfect, and yes, it came with moral compromises, but it was at least trying to avoid full-scale annihilation.

Also remember that Eren’s choice wasn’t just driven by pain but it was twisted by selfishness. He clung to his childhood dream of “freedom,” and when that dream got warped by reality, he decided the entire world had to burn for him to feel free.

So no, genocide wasn’t just “understandable” in the context of the AoT world. It was the easy way out and the cruelest path.

Thank you for agreeing on Marley point. I too agree that people should become more compassionate as they see themselves and people around them suffer and we can't excuse genocide for such reasons but highlighted word is "we", the person who suffered such trauma would feel things that we with peaceful lives can't imagine, there are always 2 sides of people one who would wish that no other soul should suffer as they did and other would feel like "why only me" and would wish for whole world to feel the same. The said person if given the power would do things that might be on same level as what eren did. We ought to follow our Morales of no harm to others but when following those starts to hurt you you might question the very own truth and Morales that you grew up with.
The power to perform such deeds is a very delicate thing thus choosing of person who should have this power is necessary and so is for that person to have a normal peaceful and non traumatic life. Then and only then the power is bound by what is called humanity and compassion. Eren was (as Reiner said) the worst person to inherit founder and his decision of genocide proved so but I just wish for that people should feel why eren did so and not just blame him to be stupid person who made the dumbest decision ever. He had his reasons, his actions are not justifiable by that but I believe atleast 70% of people of other nations in aot would have done the same thing to eldia without having to go through the hell of a life that Eren lived.

May 20, 7:36 AM

#21

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riqmoran said:
It is worth noting that Eren extends grace to the world by generously sparing them from complete annihilation, instead choosing to stake Eldeans' survival on the hope of future diplomacy. And it is a weakness of the writing that this ultimately results in the Eldean's demise at the hands of the very people Eren spared.

So what you have is a conflict where one party (Eldeans) unequivocally has the moral highground over an extremely hostile, genocidal group (rest of the world) and they go extinct as a result of not fully committing to the rumbling. It's a terrible implication which i can only hope is unintentional.

True. I too believe that morale of eldians and Eren to spare the rest of humanity was what brought the ultimate demise of the eldians.

May 20, 7:46 AM

#22

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Like i said before, we cannot ascertain whether the nuking of Paradis is more attributable to postwar events that happened offscreen or simply the incomplete rumbling.

But it is impossible to not notice the implication of the juxtaposition of the partial rumbling and the nuking of the island. That being that the Eldeans showed mercy and their enemies did not, leading to their death. And had they not shown mercy, had they completed the rumbling, they would have survived. That is a horrible takeaway, but it's right there staring the reader right in the face.

May 20, 8:23 AM

#23

CipherKen

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Nov 2024

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I'd say one of the nice aspects of AoT, and of Isayama's writing is that there's no clear right and wrong.
It's "explicable" to root for Eren or to behave like him in this situation, some people might be like that, and might behave this way.
It's also logical to agree with the reasoning of the Armin and the rest.
So, both parties have valid points or ideas (I won't discuss them, else it would be too long)

But that being said, both parties having that doesn't mean these ideas are equally good, I think people (not 100%, but the majority) who suffer a certain type of injustice would never inflict it upon others.
If you'd like to, maybe understand a little bit more, I recommend Vinland Saga, especially the second season (can't give spoilers 😄, but I hope you enjoy it.)

May 20, 8:33 AM

#24

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CipherKen said:
I'd say one of the nice aspects of AoT, and of Isayama's writing is that there's no clear right and wrong.
It's "explicable" to root for Eren or to behave like him in this situation, some people might be like that, and might behave this way.
It's also logical to agree with the reasoning of the Armin and the rest.
So, both parties have valid points or ideas (I won't discuss them, else it would be too long)
But that being said, both parties having that doesn't mean these ideas are equally good, I think people (not 100%, but the majority) who suffer a certain type of injustice would never inflict it upon others.
If you'd like to, maybe understand a little bit more, I recommend Vinland Saga, especially the second season (can't give spoilers 😄, but I hope you enjoy it.)

Yes. Both sides have enough reasonings and I agree that people would disagree with each other's take on whether it was right or wrong.
BTW I love Vinland saga especially season 2. It shows the other side of the coin different from that of aot. Just as I said 2 different types of people exist and thorfinn is in my opinion a better person, one who every human should be forgiving and kind. He faced difficulties in life but he wishes for others to not suffer the same way and looks for peace in a war driven world. However it doesn't give anyone the right to call what eren did completely unreasonable in my opinion.

ShinotaroMay 20, 8:38 AM

May 20, 8:35 AM

#25

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Dec 2020

544

riqmoran said:

keinboesewicht said:
violence is never the answer, my child

This shallow thinking is so obviously wrong it is almost not worth rebutting.

Just imagine this. If there is an entity that disregards common law and destroys the lives of others, that force of violence can only be stopped by another force of violence or credible threat thereof. This is the basic principle of law enforcement. In the absence of a counteracting force or its credible threat, bad actors would simply do as they please.

you thinking its shallow, tells me you haven’t been thinking about it deeply enough.

oh yeah, eren should’ve just called the cops! why did i never think about this?

May 20, 8:56 AM

#26

Online

Sep 2016

22321

It's unethical to kill innocent people as collateral damage, but most people wouldn't care much about morals in such a situation anyway.

That being said: Thanos' snap > Eren's rumbling

*kappa*

May 20, 10:12 AM

#27

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Nov 2024

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Zarutaku said:
It's unethical to kill innocent people as collateral damage, but most people wouldn't care much about morals in such a situation anyway.

That being said: Thanos' snap > Eren's rumbling

Thanos snap in mcu might be true but his reason for snap in comics is nowhere close to a good reason to do so.

May 20, 10:18 AM

#28

PeterOliver1

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May 2021

36

Many people like to pretend that the story presented no other alternative to solve the conflict other than a full scale rumbling, however in reality the 50 year plan was a more than viable alternative. I recommend giving this video a watch: https://youtu.be/-pbyfmcUhQs?si=IvA3QEUHN5FS8ocq

May 20, 10:23 AM

#29

Online

Sep 2016

22321

Reply to Shinotaro

Zarutaku said:
It's unethical to kill innocent people as collateral damage, but most people wouldn't care much about morals in such a situation anyway.

That being said: Thanos' snap > Eren's rumbling

Thanos snap in mcu might be true but his reason for snap in comics is nowhere close to a good reason to do so.

Shinotaro said:
his reason for snap in comics is nowhere close to a good reason to do so.

He did it to stop the never-ending resource conflicts and bring stability to the universe, that's a good reason, but the way to heaven is paved with hell.

*kappa*

May 20, 11:38 AM

#30

Cielord

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Jan 2021

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@Zarutaku Thanos' snap was a temporary solution to something that eventually will pose a problem once again (and when that problem arises again, what he will do this time? Use the army that he lost to once again kill people? Use the stones he destroyed to kill half the universe again?)

And that solution was executed in the worst way possible, just randomly killing people, which definitely led to more deaths by the suddenness of that. And that's after spending decades or perhaps even centuries of committing countless atrocities. Looking at his actions objectively, it seems like he just tried to become the worst person to ever live.

On the other hand, Eren, as despicable as he is, when you take his goals and perspective into account, seems far more logical. If the rumbling succeeded he would have been able to defend Paradis, if it had ended the way it did, then at the very least he managed to give his friends peace for the rest of their lives, (and save some of them from the Titan's curse).

May 20, 12:54 PM

#31

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Sep 2016

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@Cielord I'm not saying Thanos' plan was well-conceived, and it certainly caused lots of suffering in the aftermath, but from an impartial perspective, the survival of life in the universe seems far more important, which he believed could only be guaranteed with the snap, and he probably expected people to learn permanently from this event, so that they wouldn't let the same situation evolve again. Eren and the Yeagerists on the other hand only had the survival of one tribe in mind, and they were willing to eradicate everyone else for it, which seems arguably worse in comparison.

*kappa*

May 20, 1:38 PM

#32

WeaponArchitect

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Mar 2023

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Season 4 spawned 2 idiotic factions within discourse online

1: People who think AOT is secretly fascist propaganda

2: People who think the rumbling was actually good

both are fucking annoying and can easily be avoided positions when you actually engage with the story

May 20, 1:54 PM

#33

Cielord

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Jan 2021

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Reply to Zarutaku

@Cielord I'm not saying Thanos' plan was well-conceived, and it certainly caused lots of suffering in the aftermath, but from an impartial perspective, the survival of life in the universe seems far more important, which he believed could only be guaranteed with the snap, and he probably expected people to learn permanently from this event, so that they wouldn't let the same situation evolve again. Eren and the Yeagerists on the other hand only had the survival of one tribe in mind, and they were willing to eradicate everyone else for it, which seems arguably worse in comparison.

@Zarutaku I do agree with you that from an impartial perspective, the snap is more moral/noble than the rumbling; one was for the sake of the universe, the other for the sake of one nation, as you said. But even if we view it from such a perspective, can we really focus only on the goal of the 2 respective events, ignoring their process, if we are discussing their morality? Both caused immense suffering, and one clearly had a much higher death toll.

That said, I disagree that an impartial perspective is the right one to apply here. It's precisely because, like Eren, we don't value all lives equally (and logically so) that the Rumbling's morality remains up for debate.

May 20, 2:49 PM

#34

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Sep 2016

22321

@Cielord It's right that we shouldn't ignore the process, and that the snap had a much higher absolute death toll, but if we view both worlds as isolated systems, then the rumbling had a higher relative death toll, and it would have been even higher if it completed, so if we assume this to be a metric of evaluating the morality, then the rumbling was relatively worse in this regard.

Not sure if there's a right or wrong perspective, I guess it's wisest to consider multiple perspectives, but the impartial perspective is usually the fairest one, so I believe it should have the greatest importance, because fairness reduces conflicts.

*kappa*

May 20, 5:06 PM

#35

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Feb 2024

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keinboesewicht said:

riqmoran said:

This shallow thinking is so obviously wrong it is almost not worth rebutting.

Just imagine this. If there is an entity that disregards common law and destroys the lives of others, that force of violence can only be stopped by another force of violence or credible threat thereof. This is the basic principle of law enforcement. In the absence of a counteracting force or its credible threat, bad actors would simply do as they please.

you thinking its shallow, tells me you haven’t been thinking about it deeply enough.

oh yeah, eren should’ve just called the cops! why did i never think about this?

Nice reading comprehension.

May 20, 5:23 PM

#36

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Feb 2024

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PeterOliver1 said:
Many people like to pretend that the story presented no other alternative to solve the conflict other than a full scale rumbling, however in reality the 50 year plan was a more than viable alternative. I recommend giving this video a watch: https://youtu.be/-pbyfmcUhQs?si=IvA3QEUHN5FS8ocq

Ofc if the story was more realistic and less of a dramatization that places enormous weight in the actions of the MC, the conflict would not have escalated to this point, nor would the fallout be so severe.

It's clear the author just didn't want to write extensively on foreign policy that mirrors our world (where "nothing ever happens" is the giverning principle) opting instead to have Eren pull a Leroy Jenkins to keep the plot noving forward at a good pace. Eren's stupidity and lack of strategic thoughts is a catalyst for this story.

It borders on being disingenuous when this is later presented to us as Eren having tried everything and not being able to change anything. As if it were all inevitable and no one could have possibly thought of a better solution. The author either wants you to think Eren is too stupid to have come up with anything better, too selfish to care, or that the author himself is too dumb to envision anything else.

May 20, 5:30 PM

#37

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Zarutaku said:
It's unethical to kill innocent people as collateral damage, but most people wouldn't care much about morals in such a situation anyway.

That being said: Thanos' snap > Eren's rumbling

Couldn't bro just double the resources instead of halving the population. At least in the case if AoT, what they had at their disposal was not reality warping magic, it was strictly a tool of destruction of the not very precise kind that cannot be wielded without killing people unintentionally

You can't compare the morality of the two situations without taking into account the tools they had at their disposal and what these things can do.

May 20, 8:24 PM

#38

TruINTP

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Jan 2020

41

Genocide is always wrong. Period. Why? Because there are almost always good people amongst “enemies” and there are almost always bad people amongst “friends.” No matter which side you take out, you’re killing innocent and good people.

War is not inevitable. Peace is the desire of most humans. It’s only evil leaders that push war and desire power at the cost of others. Eren is unequivocally evil and not justified in any way for what he did.

May 20, 11:58 PM

#39

Online

Sep 2016

22321

Reply to riqmoran

Zarutaku said:
It's unethical to kill innocent people as collateral damage, but most people wouldn't care much about morals in such a situation anyway.

That being said: Thanos' snap > Eren's rumbling

Couldn't bro just double the resources instead of halving the population. At least in the case if AoT, what they had at their disposal was not reality warping magic, it was strictly a tool of destruction of the not very precise kind that cannot be wielded without killing people unintentionally

You can't compare the morality of the two situations without taking into account the tools they had at their disposal and what these things can do.

@riqmoran Indeed, Thanos could have done many different things, some of which might have been a better solution, but what would have been the effect of doubling the resources? Most likely it would have fueled overindulgence and population growth until the population doubled and ended up in the same situation again. The same could have happened with the halved population, but the difference is the epic trauma of the snap, that probably would have been remembered forever, and prevented the population of committing the same mistakes again, at least that's what Thanos probably expected to happen, otherwise his plan wouldn't make sense.

*kappa*

May 21, 12:34 AM

#40

alpassione

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Jun 2023

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Reply to Shinotaro

alpassione said:
@Shinotaro I get the idea that what Eren did might seem “less stupid” within the world of AoT because it’s a harsher, crueler place than ours. But even in that world, genocide wasn’t the only or the right answer. There were characters who fought to end the cycle without killing millions. Ppl like Mikasa, Armin and most of the 104th all lived through war, loss, betrayal, and yet still chose a different path. So no, it wasn’t just “stupid in today’s world” it was wrong in AoT world.

And on the trauma point yes, Eren suffered deeply. What he saw would break anyone. But let’s not act like no one in our world have suffered the same amount of trauma as thencharacters in AoT. There are people right now who’ve seen their families slaughtered, homes leveled, lives destroyed and some of them are children. And yet we don’t excuse genocide or mass murder just bcuz someone’s been through hell. If anything, that kind of suffering should make you more compassionate not more destructive.

I actually agree with you that targeting Marley alone, the epicenter of Eldian hatred might have been a more focused (albeit still brutal) move. It could have shocked the world into backing off without wiping out innocent lives across the globe, especially those who had nothing to do with the conflict. In fact, a variation of this was part of the 50-year plan, where the idea was to use the threat of the Rumbling as a nuclear deterrent while gradually strengthening Paradis over the course of five decades. During that time, Historia’s royal bloodline would be passed down to maintain the Founding Titan’s power, and Paradis would slowly integrate with the outside world, not through war, but through strategy and modernization. It wasn’t perfect, and yes, it came with moral compromises, but it was at least trying to avoid full-scale annihilation.

Also remember that Eren’s choice wasn’t just driven by pain but it was twisted by selfishness. He clung to his childhood dream of “freedom,” and when that dream got warped by reality, he decided the entire world had to burn for him to feel free.

So no, genocide wasn’t just “understandable” in the context of the AoT world. It was the easy way out and the cruelest path.

Thank you for agreeing on Marley point. I too agree that people should become more compassionate as they see themselves and people around them suffer and we can't excuse genocide for such reasons but highlighted word is "we", the person who suffered such trauma would feel things that we with peaceful lives can't imagine, there are always 2 sides of people one who would wish that no other soul should suffer as they did and other would feel like "why only me" and would wish for whole world to feel the same. The said person if given the power would do things that might be on same level as what eren did. We ought to follow our Morales of no harm to others but when following those starts to hurt you you might question the very own truth and Morales that you grew up with.
The power to perform such deeds is a very delicate thing thus choosing of person who should have this power is necessary and so is for that person to have a normal peaceful and non traumatic life. Then and only then the power is bound by what is called humanity and compassion. Eren was (as Reiner said) the worst person to inherit founder and his decision of genocide proved so but I just wish for that people should feel why eren did so and not just blame him to be stupid person who made the dumbest decision ever. He had his reasons, his actions are not justifiable by that but I believe atleast 70% of people of other nations in aot would have done the same thing to eldia without having to go through the hell of a life that Eren lived.

@Shinotaro You’re right that trauma changes people in ways most of us who live relatively peaceful lives can’t fully grasp. Some people, after unimaginable suffering, become more compassionate while others become consumed by bitterness and a need to make the world hurt as much as they did. That’s a very real and human response.

But the thing is, understanding why someone does something doesn’t mean we have to accept or justify what they did. Eren’s pain was deep, and yes, many people in his shoes with that level of power and trauma might have chosen a similar path. But that’s exactly the message of AoT: when someone like Eren gets that kind of power, it becomes a tragedy not just because of what he suffered, but because of what he did with that suffering.

The Founding Titan should have been wielded by someone with peace, support, and perspective. But it wasn’t. It landed in the hands of someone who grew up isolated, angry, and traumatized and that’s the whole tragedy. His decision wasn’t just “stupid”; it was the result of years of hurt twisting a dream of freedom into a nightmare for the rest of the world.

And you’re absolutely right that the other nations would likely have done the same or worse to Eldia if they had the chance. That’s the core horror of the story. But if we say “well, they would’ve done it too,” then we’ve already lost the point. That’s not justice but vengeance. It’s a mirror showing us how easy it is to become what we hate. The people who stood against Eren knew that, even if they couldn’t guarantee victory or peace. They believed some percentage of hope was worth fighting for, because once you throw away your humanity to protect it, there’s nothing left worth saving.

So yes we should feel why Eren did it. But feeling it doesn’t mean we have to say it was right.

May 21, 12:51 AM

#41

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riqmoran said:

keinboesewicht said:

you thinking its shallow, tells me you haven’t been thinking about it deeply enough.

oh yeah, eren should’ve just called the cops! why did i never think about this?

Nice reading comprehension.

nice way to pull back after you noticed you said something stupid

May 21, 2:38 AM

#42

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Feb 2024

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keinboesewicht said:

riqmoran said:

Nice reading comprehension.

nice way to pull back after you noticed you said something stupid

You embarrassingly misunderstood what I said after having already said something stupid and indefensible. At this point im wondering whether youre smart enough to understand what you say or feel embarassment at all.

If your takeaway from what I told you is that you think I' suggesting Eren should have called the cops I dont even know what to tell you. Are we even speaking the same language?

May 21, 2:47 AM

#43

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Zarutaku said:
@riqmoran Indeed, Thanos could have done many different things, some of which might have been a better solution, but what would have been the effect of doubling the resources? Most likely it would have fueled overindulgence and population growth until the population doubled and ended up in the same situation again. The same could have happened with the halved population, but the difference is the epic trauma of the snap, that probably would have been remembered forever, and prevented the population of committing the same mistakes again, at least that's what Thanos probably expected to happen, otherwise his plan wouldn't make sense.

Ok but we just come back to the point that he has magic powers that allow him to do anything. And his plan was to halve the population so that the remaining people could thrive in abundance. Scarcity doesnt go away unless you have magic powers. And hes got them. He just focused on the demand side of the equation rather than the supply side. No amount of trauma would permanently stifle demand as you claim. That's just a false premise to begin with. Sooner or later, the problem of scarcity would arise again.

May 21, 2:59 AM

#44

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Sep 2016

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Reply to riqmoran

Zarutaku said:
@riqmoran Indeed, Thanos could have done many different things, some of which might have been a better solution, but what would have been the effect of doubling the resources? Most likely it would have fueled overindulgence and population growth until the population doubled and ended up in the same situation again. The same could have happened with the halved population, but the difference is the epic trauma of the snap, that probably would have been remembered forever, and prevented the population of committing the same mistakes again, at least that's what Thanos probably expected to happen, otherwise his plan wouldn't make sense.

Ok but we just come back to the point that he has magic powers that allow him to do anything. And his plan was to halve the population so that the remaining people could thrive in abundance. Scarcity doesnt go away unless you have magic powers. And hes got them. He just focused on the demand side of the equation rather than the supply side. No amount of trauma would permanently stifle demand as you claim. That's just a false premise to begin with. Sooner or later, the problem of scarcity would arise again.

@riqmoran Maybe it would have happened as you described, but Thanos seemingly believed differently, otherwise his actions wouldn't make sense.
Anyway, the main reason it happened the way it did, was the intent of the authors to write a dramatic story.

*kappa*

May 21, 3:11 AM

#45

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Dec 2020

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riqmoran said:

keinboesewicht said:

nice way to pull back after you noticed you said something stupid

You embarrassingly misunderstood what I said after having already said something stupid and indefensible. At this point im wondering whether youre smart enough to understand what you say or feel embarassment at all.

If your takeaway from what I told you is that you think I' suggesting Eren should have called the cops I dont even know what to tell you. Are we even speaking the same language?

we are speaking the same language but talking about different things. which can happen, and is actually very common.

the difference is that i do not feel the need to resort to insults when i am not able to express my thoughts

May 21, 3:28 AM

#46

CipherKen

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Nov 2024

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Shinotaro said:

CipherKen said:
I'd say one of the nice aspects of AoT, and of Isayama's writing is that there's no clear right and wrong.
It's "explicable" to root for Eren or to behave like him in this situation, some people might be like that, and might behave this way.
It's also logical to agree with the reasoning of the Armin and the rest.
So, both parties have valid points or ideas (I won't discuss them, else it would be too long)
But that being said, both parties having that doesn't mean these ideas are equally good, I think people (not 100%, but the majority) who suffer a certain type of injustice would never inflict it upon others.
If you'd like to, maybe understand a little bit more, I recommend Vinland Saga, especially the second season (can't give spoilers 😄, but I hope you enjoy it.)

Yes. Both sides have enough reasonings and I agree that people would disagree with each other's take on whether it was right or wrong.
BTW I love Vinland saga especially season 2. It shows the other side of the coin different from that of aot. Just as I said 2 different types of people exist and thorfinn is in my opinion a better person, one who every human should be forgiving and kind. He faced difficulties in life but he wishes for others to not suffer the same way and looks for peace in a war driven world. However it doesn't give anyone the right to call what eren did completely unreasonable in my opinion.

Yeah, in Vinland Saga, they showed Thorfinn being a victim and an aggressor, and then how both made him who he was at the end.

What Eren did wasn't "unreasonable" because we've been seeing things from his perspective, especially in the 1st time watching AoT, but it was still VERY VERY extreme. It's like Game of Thrones, you see everyone's reasoning, you understand why they're doing what they're doing, but you don't necessarily agree that it was the right thing to do.

There's also a character that mirrors Eren, which is Gabi, she's basically Eren of Liberio, and she did a 180° after understanding the world, so, even if it's kind of subtle, AoT kind of processed the different ways that type of personality might behave in a similar situation.

May 21, 3:33 AM

#47

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Zarutaku said:
@riqmoran Maybe it would have happened as you described, but Thanos seemingly believed differently, otherwise his actions wouldn't make sense.
Anyway, the main reason it happened the way it did, was the intent of the authors to write a dramatic story.

I'll tell you straight up. I dont think Thanos is compelling. His ideology and actions just don't make sense. He is purely evil, deranged, and stupid. I don't see the appeal or why he reps "grey" characters.

As dumb as Eren may be given how he wielded his power, at least you could argue he accomplished what he wanted. He looked through all the possible futures and picked the one where his friends survive and are hailed as heroes. It was at the expense of everyone else, but he got what he wanted.

Thanos on the other hand, there is no realistic world where his degrowther fantasy pans out into a utopia. Thanos arbitrarily diagnoses the universe with a catastrophic condition, then prescribes the most idiotic solution imaginable on the false hope that it is a permanent fix. It's not. His logic does not hold up to even the slightest scrutiny.

May 21, 4:08 AM

#48

Online

Sep 2016

22321

Reply to riqmoran

Zarutaku said:
@riqmoran Maybe it would have happened as you described, but Thanos seemingly believed differently, otherwise his actions wouldn't make sense.
Anyway, the main reason it happened the way it did, was the intent of the authors to write a dramatic story.

I'll tell you straight up. I dont think Thanos is compelling. His ideology and actions just don't make sense. He is purely evil, deranged, and stupid. I don't see the appeal or why he reps "grey" characters.

As dumb as Eren may be given how he wielded his power, at least you could argue he accomplished what he wanted. He looked through all the possible futures and picked the one where his friends survive and are hailed as heroes. It was at the expense of everyone else, but he got what he wanted.

Thanos on the other hand, there is no realistic world where his degrowther fantasy pans out into a utopia. Thanos arbitrarily diagnoses the universe with a catastrophic condition, then prescribes the most idiotic solution imaginable on the false hope that it is a permanent fix. It's not. His logic does not hold up to even the slightest scrutiny.

@riqmoran I already said in a previous post that I don't think Thanos' plan is well-conceived, but this topic isn't about what's smart or realistic anyway, it's about the motivations behind the actions of the characters, regardless of the estimated prospects of success. Thanos was motivated to save a (from his perception) doomed universe, whereas the ErenYeagerists seemingly only cared about saving their own nation at absolutely any cost imaginable.

*kappa*

May 21, 4:10 AM

#49

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Feb 2024

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keinboesewicht said:

riqmoran said:

You embarrassingly misunderstood what I said after having already said something stupid and indefensible. At this point im wondering whether youre smart enough to understand what you say or feel embarassment at all.

If your takeaway from what I told you is that you think I' suggesting Eren should have called the cops I dont even know what to tell you. Are we even speaking the same language?

we are speaking the same language but talking about different things. which can happen, and is actually very common.

the difference is that i do not feel the need to resort to insults when i am not able to express my thoughts

You say that and yet have contributed pretty much nothing to this discussion besides what is basically just ragebaiting. If you were serious then by now you could have elaborated on your position or engaged with what i responded with.

I gave you a decent starting point for the violence debate, which is the idea that an entity that is willing to resort to violence can only be stopped by a counteracting force or credible threat thereof. Else, how do you stop a violent group or person? How do you force them to submit to your will (peaceful law abidance)? If violence is never justified, then you need to have an answer to these questions.

May 21, 5:11 AM

#50