| Please, someone explain what was so deep with this. All I could see was shallow, unrelated and at times nearly-misused random references to random philosophers, religions and scientific theories. All hidden by obfuscating storytelling, as if that makes for meaningful depth. I'm not assaulting the quality: it's pretty badass, beautiful, suspenseful and enjoyable, but it lacks depth - despite this, it is often lauded as holding such qualities, and Serial Experiments Lain is even one of the top recommendations. So, did I miss anything connecting all the dots or have I misinterpreted its fandom? Or, the worst option, do you call it deep because you don't get what is going on (I don't think so, but you never know)? |
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| to me it just felt like deep, but i didn't really understand few things |
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| Deep is hardly a feeling, it's intellectual content. I do concede that there were some smashing imagery stuffed with references, but they were... Meaningless. |
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| i quite agree, but nevertheless ergo proxy is one of my favourites because it kept me in suspense and I just love Re-l....especially her crazy observation methods. haha. But back to the point, I felt the same way, especially with episode 11, where all they needed to say was "I am that which cannot be perceived", yet they felt the need to make it all mysterious. Frankly, Ergo proxy is not philosophical, but a art form which ask philosophical questions and gets side tracked and doesn't really answer them. Having done some philosophy myself, I can safely say that philosophy is not meant to be tricky or have hidden meanings. The goal of philosophy is to ask important questions and answer them as clearly as possible. Now the goal of literature and art is to ask questions and use metaphors and other similar methods that make inference far more difficult and diverse. I felt that Ergo was doing the later. So basically I agree its not philosophical, and what you understand of it is based on how you infer the meanings of the imagery. Continuing with the earlier example, based on episode 11 imagery and words, you could infer a lot of things. one, the proxies are god(s), or two the proxies are an primal and hidden aspect of human being aka human instinct. There are probably other interpretations, but these are the ones that come readily to mind :) Worst part of Ergo Proxy is that its too ambitious, it raises questions that it never answers.....maybe if there is a second season? |
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Kaiserpingvin said: Deep is hardly a feeling, it's intellectual content. I do concede that there were some smashing imagery stuffed with references, but they were... Meaningless. Which is why I gave EP a 6. |
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| I gave it a 6 too, for the very same reason. |
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| Hah, I gave it a 6 too! Dont have much to add to the thread except cite a current conversation I'm having with EchelonV, whereby we're comparing this series to TeXhnolyze and observing that Proxy lacks focus, mishandles pacing, and depends on mood more than anything else. TeXhnolyze balances everything much better and is more ambitious in its scope, culminating in a very eerie and thought-provoking reveal and resolution. Proxy is more accessible however, which is why it will ultimately get a higher rating on MAL. Or to cite myself: me said: Proxy is just a glorified road trip that appeals to women a lot because of its production design (read: sexy men with masks, cute girl in bunny outfit, etc) there's just no concrete substance at its core, just a bunch of philosphical mumblings spread through the series that's like the writer masturbating. In hindsight claiming Proxy appeals to women especially is a bit of a cynical assumption, as I'm sure guy's dig the main female character too, its just during my time at MAL I've noticed a lot of females closing their eyes and squealing at...just about anything....and sometimes I feel like they outnumber guys and that this is reflected in the MAL ratings for Top TV Series, characters, etc. I know its baseless, but I cant help it. |
"I'm starting to think mal is run by Xinil generating electricity on a bicycle." - idklol |
| EP is as deep as Evangelion. Both just try to look all cool and intellectual and philosophical, but end up being as deep as puddles of dog urine. On the up side, it is a gorgeously animated series. The eye candy is what lasted me to ep 15, but the story was so boring I've had it stalled for over a year now I think. |
Reckoner said: Seems I find myself in disagreement with many here, I did find Ergo Proxy deep. If you take the show for its philosophical references and base it off of that, well of course half the time it may not even make sense to us viewers. What's deep in this story is the whole idea of proxies. Serial Experiments: Lain is not even fair to compare to this anime because a show like that is totally geared towards being something intellectually stimulating while it isn't necessarily the most entertaining show there is. I'd gladly watch Ergo Proxy over Lain any day, because it is just more entertaining. The imagery is also great. Proxy is definitely better animated and produced than Lain, but Lain beats Proxy as a piece of entertainment in the visual medium. Proxy would make a nice novel, but just fails at being an anime worth watching, in my opinion of course. As I said above, its basically a glorified road trip, its very stretched out, if it was 13 episodes like Lain, then the writers could have compressed all the ideas it floated about and made something that was narratively sound, but instead they throw an idea here and there without exploring it properly. As usual when it comes to these types of discussions, I can only reiterate my disappointment with the current trend in the anime industry in ruining great story ideas by either not allowing enough time for writers to plan them for 20+ episodes or for hiring lousy writers in the first place, who cant successfully maintain a compelling narrative for that long. I will give Proxy props for purposefully creating such an unlikeable main character, I'm talking about Miss Eyeshadow herself, and keeping her that way to the very end, instead of giving her a complete role reversal in a cliched manner. |
BeatnikApr 13, 2008 9:05 AM
"I'm starting to think mal is run by Xinil generating electricity on a bicycle." - idklol |
| There are parts I enjoyed too (in my review I reference episode 20), but as a whole I find the anime disappointing and a failure, and thats the only way I can critique the anime, as a complete whole. No problem with people enjoying it though, although I guess we've gone off track from the original thread topic. :) I find the stories that are 'deepest' are ones that dont specifically cite 'deep' topics in their narrative. They're deep because of subtext or metaphor that the viewer feels like they're discovering on their own. I cant think of an anime example but Sympathy For Mr Vengeance is deep not because of characters monologuing about philosophical topics but because of their actions and reactions, through mis-en-scene and all that. It's very telling that I cant think of any 'deep' anime off the top of my head... |
"I'm starting to think mal is run by Xinil generating electricity on a bicycle." - idklol |
Cihan said: I will give Proxy props for purposefully creating such an unlikeable main character, I'm talking about Miss Eyeshadow herself, and keeping her that way to the very end, instead of giving her a complete role reversal in a cliched manner. i found her refreshing, since she was so very different from the majority of female leads in anime. But I understand your dislike of her, she was a spoiled princess. In the episode on the ship, I found that she portrayed the model scientist, using any means to elicit a response, and remaining distant from the subjects under observation. Maybe its just me but this part really spoke to me. Again this does not make it philosophical, rather, its using art to bring focus to an area that we need to consider. It asks the question, "should scientists remain aloof observers?", but it does not answer it. Unless you take Re-L reversal as the response, which would mean the answer is no. And again because its an art form, it's going to produce different responses in people. Some will see this interaction as important and some as superficial. Yes, the majority of anime is not thought provoking, because well, its entertainment, and I do enjoy proxy as well as all my anime for its entertainment value, if the anime happens to be thought provoking thats just a nice bonus =) Cihan, i'm curious how you know the majority are ladies? do you check everyone's profile and see if they list themselves as female? I'm sorry if this is a little tongue in cheek, but i think guys are just as mindless with anime as the ladies. Some of the ecchi anime i have heard about, make me wonder how in the world something, with such poor plot and characters, is able to remain on the air for so long. There is only one response to that and i think you know what it is. The point being that both the ladies and guys like their visually pleasing anime, myself included. ok, the story was confusing and fragmented, I will admit to that, but you can get the basic gist of it. The other stuff you have to decide on your own, if this is a good thing or a bad thing is entirely dependent on you. |
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| Anyone who complains about a show "masturbating" and "trying to be deep" then praises Lain, of all things, should never have their opinion taken seriously. |
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| And anyone who thinks that is an argument is misguided as to the basics of logic and good argumentation. It was not praising in this context - Lain is generally seen as very deep (and I agree, but that's not the point) so recommending it to people who liked Ergo Proxy would infer that EP also was deep. I guess you think it is deep? Or do you simply harbor a deep hatred against SEL? |
KaiserpingvinApr 25, 2008 1:02 AM
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| I would have to say Ergo Proxy is very deep. It explores a lot about the meaning of "self" with the cogito virus, the proxies, becoming a "good citizen", the artificial wombs, and the crazy twisted dreams. There's definitely a strong main philosophical theme, and numerous other undercurrents such as the 1984esque commentary on communism given by Romdeau. It is a series you have to watch more than once, and it does leave some questions unanswered, but compared to a series like evangelion, it gives you a lot more to think about and a lot less philosophical masturbation. |
Kaiserpingvin said: I'm not assaulting the quality: it's pretty badass, beautiful, suspenseful and enjoyable, but it lacks depth - despite this, it is often lauded as holding such qualities, and Serial Experiments Lain is even one of the top recommendations. Define depth. Kaiserpingvin said: So, did I miss anything connecting all the dots or have I misinterpreted its fandom? Or, the worst option, do you call it deep because you don't get what is going on (I don't think so, but you never know)? In my case, it's on the contrary. I was annoyed after watching it all, but after watching it again (and noticing things I missed before, partially due to not paying attention during the first half) I understood the whole story and I love it now. |
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| Depth is hard to define. In this particular case, the references just lie there and look profound, when they really do not have anything to do with the story unless you really, really try (and even then it could be hard), and the "philosophy" is nonsense (I AM THEREFORE YOU ARE, hah). corbenic said: In my case, it's on the contrary. I was annoyed after watching it all, but after watching it again (and noticing things I missed before, partially due to not paying attention during the first half) I understood the whole story and I love it now. Understanding it is rather easy I think. The problem is how much it goes out of its way to refer to all manner of weird things, and then add some homebrewn, incredibly silly and nonsensical philosophy, as if it had any relevance to anything. All to hide how cliché the plot really is. |
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| Pro: - World devastation - Brave New World cloning - Advanced cog-in-the-machine society - Artificial intelligence vs. souls - Psychological battles Con: - Wonky episode plots - Lil Mayar - Ugly PROXIES - The physical battles - Pino's deus ex machina save (the episode warned us, didn't it) Considerations: - The idea of PROXY - Humans returning on spaceships - Did they ever have sex? - Raison d'etre - The more relevant philosophical ideas - The Creator |
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Kaiserpingvin said: Depth is hard to define. In this particular case, the references just lie there and look profound, when they really do not have anything to do with the story unless you really, really try (and even then it could be hard), and the "philosophy" is nonsense (I AM THEREFORE YOU ARE, hah). Then it's a matter of integrity, not 'depth'. Is that last part a quote? |
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| Last part is a quote, they poofed it up quite a lot, when all it meant was that Proxy One really was Vincent. So you concede at least that it's not intelligent, then? Because that's my beef with it; people seem to think the references indeed are cleverm when anyone with Wikipedia's random page link could have done pretty much the same work. |
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| it's nothing "deep." it's just quirky and allegorical. like british comedy. some people just don't get it. doesn't make the people who DO get it smarter or better. |
| in your nostromo. eating your crew. |
| Okay, but what is there to get, I wonder? What are they allegorical of? See, I have read Derrida, Lacan, Kristeva, Descartes, those lads and ladettes, and they have nothing to do with anything in Ergo Proxy. I know my Aztec empire reasonably well, and the Tzentzen totochin have nothing to do with the boat and the travels they made. The Ophelia-painting analogue was one that made a bit of sense, at least. |
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Kaiserpingvin said: that's kind of the point.Okay, but what is there to get, I wonder? What are they allegorical of? See, I have read Derrida, Lacan, Kristeva, Descartes, those lads and ladettes, and they have nothing to do with anything in Ergo Proxy. I know my Aztec empire reasonably well, and the Tzentzen totochin have nothing to do with the boat and the travels they made. The Ophelia-painting analogue was one that made a bit of sense, at least. they take a seed idea and run with it. but none of it makes sense. it's more of epic of gilgamesh the way i saw it and a lot of shit having to do with jung, freud, and crap like that. |
| in your nostromo. eating your crew. |
| Point is to make random reference for the hell of it, then, yes? Kind of like a slightly learned persons' Lucky Star. |
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Kaiserpingvin said: Last part is a quote, they poofed it up quite a lot, when all it meant was that Proxy One really was Vincent. So you concede at least that it's not intelligent, then? Because that's my beef with it; people seem to think the references indeed are cleverm when anyone with Wikipedia's random page link could have done pretty much the same work. Rather that Vincent was a modified copy of Proxy One, right. Personally, I apprehend anime (or other forms of art) more emotionally than intellectually. I wasn't contemplating the philosophy contained in EP too much, although nothing hit me as stupid or unreasonable. You have background in philosophy, so I think it's natural that it rubs you wrong, considering it's made for entertainment and not an academic dispute. It's kinda like when I was discussing a tv show elsewhere, namely The Unit, and we all liked it. Then comes some military officer pointing out this and that, and saying how ridiculous and unrealistic it all is. |
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