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Rethardus | Jul 19, 2014 8:05 AM
Well, it is an ideal, but it shouldn't be just an ideal, even though the world we live in is terribly realistic. Just had a conversation with a producer yesterday, and he went on about how people with a creative vision that does not stroke with the mainstream vision shouldn't be called artist. A good artist should be an artist who's accepted by the masse, according to him. I totally disagree with that vision, but I understand why he said it and why it works, because that's just how our world is, we live in a capitalistic system. But an ideal shouldn't be changed because of that, hence the word "ideal".I'd also like to add that I don't have anything against the more mainstream work. I understand why people enjoy moe. I also enjoy my moe from time to time, but the moe or fanservice should not be the only quality that should be found in a show. That's a terrible way to rate a show, and incredibly unfair, as if a score should be determined on your taste only. I like / hate moe blobs? Let's give it a high / low score. In my opinion, I support every artist's idea, as long as it's executed well. You want to make a show about little girls flying around with animal ears? Sure, why not? To the point that even fan pandering is accepted, like the stuff you mentioned, commisioned stories and genre-defined writing. I don't care how ecchi shows denigrate female characters as lust objects, because that's what they were going for in the beginning. In fact, if they fail at that, while it's clearly their intention, it would be a bad show. To each their own, eg. if I buy a car as a family man, I would not buy a sports car, and that doesn't mean a sports car is inferiour, it just means it's not the right tool to satisfy my needs. Imo, that's the same thing with anime and manga. I don't necessary look for a deep story in ecchi shows (unless it works that is). So, let new genres be invented, let old archetypes live. In the case of ME (I have not played it yet), it seems that it works. If they gave in too much and the game was a hot pot of several visions, I would argue that it didn't work. Then again, I did not play it. So I'm not really against the fact that they're using polls to change the game (even though I would not approach it that way), I think that method should not be excluded. Though I would hate it if the majority of developers did it that way. Nintendo is the opposite for example. Sometimes, they would have a vision, and the general crowd does not know if they want it or not, because it never occurred to them that something like this exist. So, in order to create something, they would stubbornly keep their ideas, risking the losing money. But in long term, you can see how Nintendo proves itself as an early adaptor, being the lab rat of the industry, experimenting on stuff that other developers do not dare to touch because of risk. Then, when it proves to be successful, other companies copy their concept half-assedly. Kind of a dick move, but that's just how our industry works. |
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Doomroar | Jul 19, 2014 1:23 AM
Well first of all i apologize if i sounded patronizing, in order to avoid misunderstandings i usually end over-explaining even the obvious things, and ironically that also creates misunderstandings, but that was not my intention.I see what you are saying now, and i also agree, in the creative process labels should not matter and the author should be free to create things as it wants, and in the case of Ping Pong, Taiyo envisioned the story first and the label was added after probably by the distributor/publisher, and i also agree that labels are human constructs for the sake of convenience, i agree 100% here. But... and indeed one could argue, specially in these days (and even before these days) about the freedom that authors have while creating a story, for a long time lots of authors were (and some still are) commissioned to write stories about their patrons, stories in which they get exalted and are the main heroes, just like artist had to paint portraits to make a living, the same thing happens with animation and manga (specially in japan with their strong market around otaku culture) studios/companies hire writers in order to attract a demography for example Super Sonico in this case this anime already carries a series of labels before its creation, of course this is not the case of Ping Pong by any means. So while i agree with that creative ideal, people are not that free, specially when they try to sell something and hope for it to get published, now normally the idea is presented first, and once they have that they choose a publisher that would accept their work, but sadly that is not always the case, even more some publishers may edit the work mid way, so even if the work was initially free from all labels, once in serialization the story may start to get influenced or in this case corrupted. Ah Extra credits their video of Aesthetics vs Graphics is quite good, and i agree everything can be a game, but even games are victims of labels, even in pre-production, such is the case of Mass Effect which is using polls to determine the direction that the new game will take, and yes the poll uses labels, and according to that they will make the game, so yeah this goes against creative freedom and limits the work, but it happens, and it should not, i agree it definitively should not happen, but it does, things are being tailored to appeal to a certain public, and that is pretty much my new objection (as i was talking before about the consumers, and the publishers, well now i add the authors too). I agree with everything else. |
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Rethardus | Jul 18, 2014 7:58 PM
I don't mind a healthy discussion, to be honest, but I did not like the way how it went down.In a theoritical way, I understand you, from the beginning already. But my main focus was not that, because I wanted to make you understand categories don't matter, even if they do matter in the context you have set. I'm not trying to say: "well, in my context, it does not matter, so you should listen". I'm trying to give you a perspective where things like these shouldn't matter, because to be fair, I don't think the mangaka started to ponder whether he should make seinen or shounen. I think he started to think about good story about ping pong, and it just happened to be that his style of writing and drawing is more for the mature readers / viewers. Things don't work the other way around, or else you're forcing yourself, limiting yourself in the process of making something. Definitions come AFTER the existence of stuff, not before (though one can argue these days). I mean, labels and words are made up by humans, just for convenience. Sometimes, stuff just don't have a label, and I honestly don't think it should matter, but here we go again, talking about whether it's seinen or shounen. Tbh, I just wanted to explore the show more, not to discuss about what genre it is. It's like I said before, very limiting. I can't explain it well, but Extre Credits, a VG channel that explores gaming medium pondered on this question too "What is games", and genre defining etc. http://youtu.be/blj91KLOvZQ Please watch it, and you'll understand my point more. Now, I also want to add, I've been studying animation film in art college for 5 years. I didn't want to bring this up, since this is irrelevant and kind of a douchey move, as if I'm the strict authority about anything animation related. I just wanted to say this, because it's as if you're looking down on me, as if you needed to explain what visuals language is. I get it. It's not because my opinion is the opposite, that it means my knowledge about the medium is opposite of yours too. I think defining stuff is important, as in, for the viewer, and people who want to look for specific stuff. But it's not important AT ALL, in the creative process. And that's what I wanted to talk about. You're talking about this matter with a total different perspective, whereas I keep telling you I'm not talking about the consumer (sorry if I wasn't so clear about that), but it' annoys me to be brought to a discussion that I didn't mean to engage in. My original point was that Ping Pong has a low threshold, unlike some artsy anime, even though it presents itself in a very unconventional way. If that was my point, why does it matter whether it's shounen or seinen (even though you ARE right). I did not want to talk about that, but I kept being dragged in to the same discussion which I didn't deem to be important. |
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Doomroar | Jul 18, 2014 7:05 PM
Thanks Jym this is a free space so feel free to contribute, i am always trying to not sound overly aggressive or unfriendly when i deal with these themes, but it is hard to express a tone while using a textual medium, and it all gets worse when your are trying to explain the importance of something or its differences from something else, and the longer the text the worse the effect gets, but believe me i don't consider neither of us to be on an altered or agitated state. |
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Jym | Jul 18, 2014 5:17 PM
Hi GuysI hate to see to obviously intelligent people get get mad at each other over the Labeling of Ping Pong. depending on which defination you use, you both could be right. One definition I found was... Shounen = boy (can also refer to the genre of 'boys comics' meaning typically more action). Wikipedia defines it as Shōnen (少年?), shonen, or shounen, is a kango word literally meaning few years and generally referring to a typical boy, from elementary school through high school age. It is used in everyday conversation when referring to the period of youth, including in legal wording referencing youth, without regard to gender. Shōnen manga is a popular demographic of Japanese comics, and often features a teenage cast as well as a combat based plot while exploring themes of protecting those you care about, understanding each other and developing friendship/comradery. Ping Pong features teenagers competing against each other while exploring themes of protecting those you care about, understanding each other and developing friendship/comradery. Seinen manga and anime is marketed to a male audience aged roughly 17 on into their 40's. In Japanese, the word seinen means "young man" or "young men." Seinen manga and anime have a wide variety of art styles and variation in subject matter, ranging from the avant-garde through sports, games, business or action/adventure on to the erotic. Examples of seinen series include: Akira, Berserk, Battle Royale, Ghost in the Shell, Hellsing, Battle Angel Alita and Maison Ikkoku. As you can see, Ping Pong has elements of both Seinen And Shounen in it. Personally, I would give the edge to the Seinen label. Now, lets be friends. :-) and sorry for butting in. |
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Doomroar | Jul 18, 2014 1:53 PM
Listen i am not here to offend you, but i need you to understand the importance of those "labels", why is this important is more of a personal thing (because i could have just ignored you and go on), in which i constantly meet people having that idealistic, noble but yet clearly wrong perspective of how these categories work.I see, the problem just extended to anime and cartoons... they are as you already know styles of animation, and while they may not affect the story, they strongly affect the visuals which are used to present the story on its animated format, its importance resides in the necessity to order and group things, however in this case Ping Pong looks more like a french cartoon than an anime, and that is why it ended on the Unusual is better Club, because it differentiates from your average anime, is important? of course it is, it helps people to find what they search for, if everything was simply grouped down under animation it would be impossible to find a 3D CGI animation and then go and search a traditional cartoon, because they are in the same categorical pool despite the differences you would need the specif name if you want to find something in a reasonable amount of time. The same goes for the demographic categories, the labels shoujo, seinen, etc, help to denote an aimed public, to denote a market, and the probability (meaning that is not necessary) of certain elements that will be involved in a story, depending of the author this demographic approach may come after finishing a story or it was accounted for even before the making of the story, so it matters for the author and the producers to know what public will be consuming that story, but does this matters for the consumers? of course it does, just like with the categories of animations, the ones for demographic helps to find what you are looking for, does this mean that you are tied to one demographic? No (but if you are 5 years old then of course there's a bunch of things that you should not be watching) as a consumer you are free to consume whatever you want, and those "unimportant labels" are there to help you find that, they are also there as a warning, again one have bigger probabilities to adders different themes than others. So they may not be important to you (as someone that can consume from all categories) but then again you are on this club aren't you? you could perfectly use the A-Z list and monitor the upcoming anime list, and yet you are here in a club that uses the label of anime, and further limits that group to the unusual types of anime, but who knows maybe you are not using this club for nothing in particular other than making me explain why categories are important. |
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Rethardus | Jul 17, 2014 2:24 PM
Dude... You still don't get my point. I don't think it's a shounen, and I don't even think it MATTERS.All you go on rambling about is "it's not a shounen, it's a seinen". Okay, great. Nice conversation. Does the story suddenly change when people label it shoujo, seinen, cartoon, anime, or whatever? NO. It's just a freaking label, it does nothing to you, to me, to the show or whatever. Heck, someone might even make up a genre called "dsqsddqs" and I still watched a show called "Ping Pong", and my opinion on the show won't change. That's not what the discussion is about. All you do is take one mistake in my text, blow it up, and treat it as if I was discussing about that. It's as if you just want me to say "okay you're right". So here I go: you're correct about it being a seinen. Now, can we move on? This is simply tiring for me.. |
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Doomroar | Jul 15, 2014 1:08 PM
It seems that you still think that it is a shounen (and agree it has shounen elements but it is not). Anyway you could always read the manga and then re-watch the anime, once you do that the differences between Ping Pong and other shounen sports shows will be even more apparent, or you could keep your position. |
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Rethardus | Jul 14, 2014 4:02 PM
I understand the distinction, but distinctions aren't there to limit genres, they're just there to provide a certain definition for practical purposes. Like, to know what to ask for in a comic store when you want a certain genre for example.Now, I really don't get why it matters in this context, since I just meant to say it was a great manga that's accessible to anyone who wanted to watch sports. Since it didn't add anything to the conversation, other than "you're wrong". |
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Doomroar | Jul 12, 2014 9:28 AM
The difference resides in the approach of the themes, and presentation, a shounen would not put time on the lives of the characters and their circumstances in such a detailed way. |
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Rethardus | Jul 11, 2014 10:06 AM
I don't know, that distinction is so vague.You probably just say that because it's been serialized in a seinen magazine, and because it says so on its MAL page. But how do you distinct seinen from shounen? This show is very mature with its themes and narration, but it tells the story from a teenager's perspective. And it's also about young people in their prime of their life, playing a sports they like, what's the difference between stuff like Slam Dunk and Prince of Tennis? Then there are shows that are about adults which are serialized in Shounen magazines (Death Note, Hajime no Ippo), so I really don't know where to draw the line. Does it matter? My message is still the same, imo that's just nitpicking. |
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Doomroar | Jul 11, 2014 8:53 AM
I am sure that Ping Pong the animation is seinen... |
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Rethardus | Jul 11, 2014 5:16 AM
Holy shit, Ping Pong club seems hilarious. I just watched the OP. Might watch this after Ping Pong the Animation.And yes, it's a great anime, I'm watching it at a slow pace, because I don't want it to end. This show is great, it has so many things to offer. From great character development, to innovaive animation, to great music, it's all there. That, without the pretence of being an elitist anime: it's all presented with a very low threshold, everyone can watch this as a great sport / shounen anime. About the animation, even in terms of objectivity (excluding the unique style), it's a very high level technique. Because I study animation, and I can see how good the animators are with perspective, anatomy, and whatnot. But people are so literal, they think good anatomy is only when things are perfectly straight, which is incredible ironic because Japanese style is already hugely deformed (big head and eyes, long legs, small arms). It's just a deformation they're not used to, so all of the sudden it's bad anatomy. Sorry for the rant, I need to get this off my chest. Good thing is, people acknowledge this show by giving it a high score, so there's that. |
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Doomroar | Jul 8, 2014 6:53 AM
Jym i can't believe you haven't watched Ping Pong yet is the most representative thing for this year when it comes to this club! |
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Jym | Jul 7, 2014 4:18 PM
When you mentioned Ping Pong the Animation, I first thought you were referring to The Ping Pong Club. If you haven't seen that one yet, check it out.Based on your comments I decided to check out Ping Pong the Animation, and it is great. Just ignore the uninformed comments about bad animation / bad art because the art/animation is very good and unique. Worth watching. |
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Rethardus | Jul 7, 2014 11:01 AM
Joined this club because of Ping Pong the Animation. This club is great, there needs to be more people who appreciate the more unorthodox stuff.I cringe when I read the reviews about bad animation / bad art on the page of Ping Pong the animation. People can be so ignorant... |
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Jym | Jun 24, 2014 4:08 PM
Why indeed! |
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mudri | Jun 24, 2014 1:34 PM
Why does the main character look so much like Ladd Russo? |
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Jym | Jun 19, 2014 2:46 PM
Here's an unusual show you probably haven't seen. Nerima Daikon Brothers. It's about 2 brothers and a female cousin {plus a small panda who is part Daikon raddish}. The brothers grow Daikon to raise money to build a Dome to hold concerts in. {They are a struggling rock band} Every time they try to earn some money they are ripped off, so they decide to steal the money back but something goes wrong at the end of each caper. I forgot to mention that this is an anime Musical with singing and dancing. Don't see that everyday! Some gross humor and sillyness also. Check it out. |
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Jym | May 26, 2014 3:59 PM
Watching an fun, unusual show called Cuticle Detective Inaba. This 2013 release features a half human, half werewolf who used to work as a police dog for the police but now runs the Cuticle Detective Agency with his two assistants. He has a hair fetish and can extract critical information just by examining or tasting a sample of someone's hair! He is trying to capture the crime boss, Don Valentino, who is a talking goat. This show is totally different and somewhat silly. Check it out for yourself. |