| What are acceptable and unacceptable reason/excuse that people always use to make certain series sound bad/better to the PUBLIC that base on/not base on personal weigh/judgement/opinion/preference/? For example
What do you guys think of melodrama,drama done right/wrong and other reason/excuse that you always found in the forum? Which of them are really reflecting bad writing/good writing and which of them base on personal weigh/judgement/opinion/preference? Discuss Something that related to discussion > mature,childish, edgy teen, ETC > insert genre/demographic > symbolism/complex/deep > overrated, underrated, underlooked, overlooked, fanbase, ETC > original/unoriginal > cliche/trope/archetype/stereotype More >Bad/good adaptation >Old >Fanservice/Fan Disservice >Art style >Pretentious >Mainstream |
EsperMay 24, 2016 3:43 AM
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| Only thing I have a problem with is annoying abused tropes, otherwise im usually good to go :3 Ofc I can write you a quick rant about why a specific series is terrible, but not today :p |
| I'm with @kamisama751 on this one. Any reason / excuse is acceptable so long as they explain why they feel that way. |
 It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
| > mature,childish, edgy teen, ETC i mean, WTF? how you can value that? how it make automatically good? > insert genre/demographic i mean, they are good/bad just simply being one? WTF? > symbolism/complex/deep "i can throw a series soo many simbolism, i don't care if they are get it or not", everyone can be like that.... > overrated, underrated, underlooked, overlooked, fanbase, ETC i mean, the quality of the series in writer hand, not many people hand or their reception of series... all of them is outside the series quality it self.. bug me a lot when using as prise/critics... > original/unoriginal they are good/bad simply being different or not? people, PLS > cliche/trope/archtype/stereotype what's wrong with that? seriously? too lazy to make long list... this 6 thing is what bug me the most.. even worse of they are not explaining and only one liner.. |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| Stuff that's unacceptable: "X is SO cliche". (Yeah like I haven't heard that comment before) Since this comment is usually made in harem/ecchi/school romance, you've already lost all your credibility when you say it because you're already writing from a biased standpoint. You obviously don't like shows of this genre, so why are you even making a review for one anyways? It's not good enough to just say that. It lacks any further explanation or any attempts to try and describe any redeeming points like how the characters interact or how they are explored deeper than these roles. Not explaining your statements. Certainly, discussing anime has a lot of subjectivity and in turn sometimes you can't explain why you have thought a certain way. However, you should be justifying your opinion whenever you can, therefore it sounds more valid. "X is so unoriginal". It's not about originality, it's about execution. It's harder to write an original story than you think. |
| “Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth. But the world isn't perfect, and the law is incomplete..." -Alphonse Elric "Then and now, what I protect has never changed!" -Sakata Gintoki I'll take anything like The Pet Girl of Sakurasou. Anything as good as that. |
Robiiii said: You can dismiss certain show if you have valid reason that not base on personal preference, :DOnly thing I have a problem with is annoying abused tropes, otherwise im usually good to go :3 Ofc I can write you a quick rant about why a specific series is terrible, but not today :p kamisama751 said: Ironically, we can always see these words in reviews and discussion without explanation *facepalm* If seen strictly none of your mentions are acceptable since even they need to be explained how they are so. Kuma said: May I use some of your materials in the first post?> mature,childish, edgy teen, ETC i mean, WTF? how you can value that? how it make automatically good? > insert genre/demographic i mean, they are good/bad just simply being one? WTF? > symbolism/complex/deep "i can throw a series soo many simbolism, i don't care if they are get it or not", everyone can be like that.... > overrated, underrated, underlooked, overlooked, fanbase, ETC i mean, the quality of the series in writer hand, not many people hand or their reception of series... all of them is outside the series quality it self.. bug me a lot when using as prise/critics... > original/unoriginal they are good/bad simply being different or not? people, PLS > cliche/trope/archtype/stereotype what's wrong with that? seriously? too lazy to make long list... this 6 thing is what bug me the most.. even worse of they are not explaining and only one liner.. |
EsperMay 21, 2016 2:19 AM
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Esper said: no problem... i don't see anything particulary wrong with that..Robiiii said: I f you have valid reason, of course you can shit on that certain show. :DOnly thing I have a problem with is annoying abused tropes, otherwise im usually good to go :3 Ofc I can write you a quick rant about why a specific series is terrible, but not today :p kamisama751 said: Ironically, we can always see these words in reviews and discussion without explanation *facepalm* If seen strictly none of your mentions are acceptable since even they need to be explained how they are so. Kuma said: May I use some of your materials in the first post?> mature,childish, edgy teen, ETC i mean, WTF? how you can value that? how it make automatically good? > insert genre/demographic i mean, they are good/bad just simply being one? WTF? > symbolism/complex/deep "i can throw a series soo many simbolism, i don't care if they are get it or not", everyone can be like that.... > overrated, underrated, underlooked, overlooked, fanbase, ETC i mean, the quality of the series in writer hand, not many people hand or their reception of series... all of them is outside the series quality it self.. bug me a lot when using as prise/critics... > original/unoriginal they are good/bad simply being different or not? people, PLS > cliche/trope/archtype/stereotype what's wrong with that? seriously? too lazy to make long list... this 6 thing is what bug me the most.. even worse of they are not explaining and only one liner.. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| 'depends' No, really, it depends on how you criticize the anime and whether it's an actual flaw or you simply expecting something else. Sometimes, the same criticism can have different reasoning. One criticizes SEL for not containing jokes because it makes it less fun. Another says the lack of humor prevents it from feeling alive, from feeling the characters are actual human beings. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| Every argument don't have the same weight depending the genre of the anime and the public aimed. Ecchi is not a bad thing, you can like it or dislike it, it doesn't make a writing good or bad. I'm agree with @GaryMuffuginOak , everything is about execution. There is not good or bad plea, but just well/poor fed one. For example: Esper said: Good pacing/bad pacing is unacceptable for me cause pacing is base on personal preference Not totally agree, most of the time, pacing is unvaluable and irrelevant because it's often related with the number of episode they have to do. But still, mystery/horror is genres that need to be slow paced to let tension to be set, and take the viewer by surprise. In Slice of life which is supposed to relax you, you shouldn't have to much event happening to not overflow the viewer. Kaiji's slow pace actually totally help the narration, it show you for example how the casino games can seems long >_< (but it's still a little bit too slow, own opinion) |
pterozMay 21, 2016 2:55 AM
TheBrainintheJar said: Were those reflecting bad writing or those were base on personal preference?'depends' No, really, it depends on how you criticize the anime and whether it's an actual flaw or you simply expecting something else. Sometimes, the same criticism can have different reasoning. One criticizes SEL for not containing jokes because it makes it less fun. Another says the lack of humor prevents it from feeling alive, from feeling the characters are actual human beings. GaryMuffuginOak said: Urgh.. This originality is really.. (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻Stuff that's unacceptable: "X is so unoriginal". It's not about originality, it's about execution. It's harder to write an original story than you think. pteroz said: Are you saying "Good pacing/bad pacing" is a valid excuse to show that particular anime "bad/good"?Esper said: Good pacing/bad pacing is unacceptable for me cause pacing is base on personal preference Not totally agree, most of the time, pacing is unvaluable and irrelevant because it's often related with the number of episode they have to do. But still, mystery/horror is genres that need to be slow paced to let tension to be set, and take the viewer by surprise. In Slice of life which is supposed to relax you, you shouldn't have to much event happening to not overflow the viewer. Kaiji's slow pace actually totally help the narration, it show you for example how the casino games can seems long >_< (but it's still a little bit too slow, own opinion) |
EsperMay 21, 2016 3:45 AM
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| What I'm saying is it's not pointless to talk about pacing. And to me, pacing can become a valid escuse. But it shouldn't come alone. |
| I d say everything is just personal so every reason or excuse is acceptable but Must be explained.. For ex i really really hate childish behaviours when a situation is serious... FmaB was full of these scenes and even if the story is nice i really can t stand it.. my 'excuse' is acceptable but it s personal.. |
kingfroggy said: I d say everything is just personal so every reason or excuse is acceptable but Must be explained.. For ex i really really hate childish behaviours when a situation is serious... FmaB was full of these scenes and even if the story is nice i really can t stand it.. my 'excuse' is acceptable but it s personal.. Hum, actually it is unacceptable because it's your taste (and you didn't really explained) . But it's still personal. |
| " because it's mainstream that's why it's bad " is unacceptable |
pteroz said: kingfroggy said: I d say everything is just personal so every reason or excuse is acceptable but Must be explained.. For ex i really really hate childish behaviours when a situation is serious... FmaB was full of these scenes and even if the story is nice i really can t stand it.. my 'excuse' is acceptable but it s personal.. Hum, actually it is unacceptable because it's your taste (and you didn't really explained) . But it's still personal. Tastes are the main reason which you ll find an anime enjoyable or not.. So if you explain that in your review the reader can understand it but if a person writes like Harmony said, then it s unacceptable |
| As everyone's already said, what's important is whether or not the criticism is justified. The most unacceptable thing people do is take their own subjective and unjustified opinions and simply assert them as facts, as though that means anything. One example is people calling something 'pretentious shit' when what they mean is 'I didn't understand it'. TheBrainintheJar said: 'depends' No, really, it depends on how you criticize the anime and whether it's an actual flaw or you simply expecting something else. Sometimes, the same criticism can have different reasoning. One criticizes SEL for not containing jokes because it makes it less fun. Another says the lack of humor prevents it from feeling alive, from feeling the characters are actual human beings. Are you implying that the latter instance was a genuine criticism? Because that sounds like an instance of thematic relevancy if anything. pteroz said: What I'm saying is it's not pointless to talk about pacing. And to me, pacing can become a valid escuse. But it shouldn't come alone. I'm of the opinion that any series which is 'plot based' as opposed to 'character based', needs to have pacing that moves faster than a crawl. Kiznaiver completely disappointed me this season, and the way the writing paced things out so slowly was a huge factor in that. No events of consequence were occurring, and every time it appeared like one might be about to happen, it would inevitably be a fake-out. In that sort of instance, I think pacing is a justifiable complaint. If there's nothing moving the plot forward, then there needs to be something else to make up for that, whether it's good humour, thought-provoking ideas, or gratuitous fanservice whatever else you can think of that's engaging. |
| Now you're wondering if there's white text in any of my other posts. Over there, I'm everywhere. I know that. |
| Personally i found pacing a bad reason to dislike a show, because if u watch a series weekly it s obvious that slow paced eps could destroy your enjoyment.. I have watchet aot in 2 days and it was outstanding It happens in so many action film nowdays .. 2h film-->one half is slow and the other part is full of action scenes and this happened in aot |
NoobStomper said: Yes, it is a valid reason to dislike a certain show. BUT, do you think each person that watched AOT think like that? How confident are you? Do you think all people will agree with you? Will you tell everybody that AOT was bad cause the pacing was bad?Pacing is a perfectly valid reason to not like a show, if the series is constantly switching between fast and slow pacing like in AOT, it can destroy alot of the enjoyment and makes it look like the beginning of the series was nothing but a bait to get people hooked. |
EsperMay 21, 2016 8:31 AM
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Caelidesu said: The most unacceptable thing people do is take their own subjective and unjustified opinions and simply assert them as facts, as though that means anything. An opinion can't be objective thus it can't be unjustified. Moreover, art is not a math, it's relative to the person who experience it, and people can have a myriad of reasons of why they hate the same show you love. One example is people calling something 'pretentious shit' when what they mean is 'I didn't understand it'. 2deep4u is the dumbest type of fanboy defence in existence. It usually spread by not so bright kids who most likely think that if they pretend to like (let alone understand) some of the more controversial post-modern schlocks they automatically more intelligent than the rest of humanity. |
kingfroggy said: I personally think pacing is a reason to dislike a show. BUT telling everybody that certain anime was bad cause you "personally" dislike the pacing is unacceptable reason cause other people probably think that the pacing was fine.Personally i found pacing a bad reason to dislike a show, because if u watch a series weekly it s obvious that slow paced eps could destroy your enjoyment.. I have watchet aot in 2 days and it was outstanding It happens in so many action film nowdays .. 2h film-->one half is slow and the other part is full of action scenes and this happened in aot |
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Esper said: kingfroggy said: I personally think pacing is a reason to dislike a show. BUT telling everybody that certain anime was bad cause you "personally" dislike the pacing is unacceptable reason cause other people probably think that the pacing was fine.Personally i found pacing a bad reason to dislike a show, because if u watch a series weekly it s obvious that slow paced eps could destroy your enjoyment.. I have watchet aot in 2 days and it was outstanding It happens in so many action film nowdays .. 2h film-->one half is slow and the other part is full of action scenes and this happened in aot actually, he said the pacing was fine in AoT. Anyways, the main reason I don't like One piece in anime is the pacing, and it has nothing to do with the writing. I love One Piece but I read it. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to think this way. Anybody who saw OP in both anime and scan prefer to read. |
| Its very hard to say actually, you also need to consider other member's view. Everyone preference is different after all. When an anime looks good to you, you will of course try to defend its value when someone denounce it. If the anime you think is bad, either you will not defend its value or denounce it yourself. |
| School anime = shit anime. Just cause we had several shitty school anime doesn't mean every school anime is shit ... |
Shishou_23May 22, 2016 1:36 PM
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Esper said: kingfroggy said: I personally think pacing is a reason to dislike a show. BUT telling everybody that certain anime was bad cause you "personally" dislike the pacing is unacceptable reason cause other people probably think that the pacing was fine.Personally i found pacing a bad reason to dislike a show, because if u watch a series weekly it s obvious that slow paced eps could destroy your enjoyment.. I have watchet aot in 2 days and it was outstanding It happens in so many action film nowdays .. 2h film-->one half is slow and the other part is full of action scenes and this happened in aot Ehm .. That s the opposite ahah i liked aot s pacing, alternating very fast and slow moments..i was answering to Noobstomper |
pteroz said: I get the part where he said that "watchet aot in 2 days and it was outstanding". I just saying my opinion on his statement where "Personally i found pacing a bad reason to dislike a show". Esper said: I personally think pacing is a reason to dislike a show. BUT telling everybody that certain anime was bad cause you "personally" dislike the pacing is unacceptable reason cause other people probably think that the pacing was fine. actually, he said the pacing was fine in AoT. Anyways, the main reason I don't like One piece in anime is the pacing, and it has nothing to do with the writing. I love One Piece but I read it. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to think this way. Anybody who saw OP in both anime and scan prefer to read. And the rest were my opinion on general statement that we usually found in the forum. Was my reply sounds offensive? I am sorry if you felt offended @kingfroggy. I am a nice guy that think rationally (probably) |
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| Nono no problem! ^^ I had just seen you haven t understood my answer btw english is not my language so it can happens i don t express myself clearly :) @Esper |
| lmao this topic is way too open ended to answer. For one I believe that stating melodrama as a reason for a show being bad is an invalid excuse. Melodrama is 100% deliberate and is widely used in media. |
Gesu- said: Yup, really bad excuse IMO cause melodrama is generally love by public and the example of famous melodrama is Titanic movie. lmao this topic is way too open ended to answer. For one I believe that stating melodrama as a reason for a show being bad is an invalid excuse. Melodrama is 100% deliberate and is widely used in media. NoobStomper said: Ok then.. Hypothetically.. If you wrote a review, what would you said about AOT pacing?Esper said: Yes, it is a valid reason to dislike a certain show. BUT, do you think each person that watched AOT think like that? How confident are you? Do you think all people will agree with you? Will you tell everybody that AOT was bad cause the pacing was bad? Well obviously everyone have different taste and I don't necessary dislike a show if bad pacing is its only problem, but a show like AOT have way more problems then that, and the pacing issue only adds to it. a)AOT got bad pacing b)I dislike AOT pacing |
EsperMay 21, 2016 11:42 AM
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NoobStomper said: Why dont you use choice B.? with extra details like the pacing was inconsistent.Esper said: Ok then.. Hypothetically.. If you wrote a review, what would you said about AOT pacing? a)AOT got bad pacing b)I dislike AOT pacing Something along the lines of choice A, with extra details like the pacing was inconsistent. |
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| completely subjective; everybody has their own preferences on these things but Id say if a character is really too childish or out of place and comes as a distraction to the viewer and is taking away from the story, then it wouldnt do very well for the rest of the anime Esper said: I, for one am I sucker for good symbolism but ofc if the symbolism itself is done really well and plays into the theme of the anime, then thats an objective thing to look at> symbolism/complex/deep Esper said: originality shouldnt even factor in one bit since it all comes down to how it's executed> overrated, underrated, underlooked, overlooked, fanbase, ETC > original/unoriginal > cliche/trope/archetype/stereotype and judging a show of its notability is just stupid |
 Freddy Nicholas said: have control, be yourself, god is dead |
kamisama751 said: Getting accepted by who? Your teacher? :DEsper said: Why dont you use choice B.? with extra details like the pacing was inconsistent. Because that will be too biased for getting accepted. :D NoobStomper said: You have conviction in your claims that AOT got bad pacing. Nice. Why is saying "I personally dislike it" = skirt around?Esper said: Why dont you use choice B.? with extra details like the pacing was inconsistent. There isn't all that much difference in the two options but option A shows that you have conviction in your claims, where as option B would be something a relativist would say. When writing a review you are suppose to telling what you thought about the show in terms of its quality, and not whether you personally like or dislike something. If I thought the pacing was bad and detracted from the overall quality then I will state it as such, I wouldn't try to skirt around it by saying something like "I personally dislike it", just like how someone wouldn't say they personally dislike the story of a generic school harem. |
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NoobStomper said: Is there something wrong being a relativist?skirting around the issue is probably the wrong term to put it. But as I said earlier, that option B in a review is something a relativist would say just so that people won't criticize them. kamisama751 said: How about pacing? The problem there is how the message got received. B truly shows that it is personal matter which has little to do with the actuall quality. "I don't like it because there is a seiyuu I don't like." Nothing to say, your personal taste that doesn't apply to others. A on the other hand is on the objective level. That means it can be true or false. So it has also more power when it comes to the "weight" of your statement. "It got a seiyuu I don't like therefore it is bad" is just wrong. a)AOT got bad pacing. The pacing was inconsistent. b)I dislike AOT pacing. The pacing was inconsistent. |
EsperMay 21, 2016 12:28 PM
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| If I'd already seen the show I would immediately be able to agree or disagree with the statement. Obviously my opinion would trump all unless they presented some new information to change it. If I hadn't seen the show then I wouldn't be reading about it. |
KruszerMay 21, 2016 12:55 PM
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach"  |
NoobStomper said: Yup opinion can be proven bad. But I am not discussing objective/subjective/valid/proven wrong/etc2.. I am asking you why cant you said "I dislike AOT pacing. The pacing was inconsistent."Esper said: Is there something wrong being a relativist? How about pacing? a)AOT got bad pacing. The pacing was inconsistent. b)I dislike AOT pacing. The pacing was inconsistent. There is something wrong with being a relativist, especially when we are discussing quality of shows. People seem have the idea that just because its subjective in anime, that suddenly all opinions are valid when they are not. Something subjective does not mean that what everyone say is relevant. Opinions can be proven bad. |
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Esper said: NoobStomper said: Yup opinion can be proven bad. But I am not discussing objective/subjective/valid/proven wrong/etc2.. I am asking you why cant you said "I dislike AOT pacing. The pacing was inconsistent."There is something wrong with being a relativist, especially when we are discussing quality of shows. People seem have the idea that just because its subjective in anime, that suddenly all opinions are valid when they are not. Something subjective does not mean that what everyone say is relevant. Opinions can be proven bad. Esper said: NoobStomper said: Yup opinion can be proven bad. But I am not discussing objective/subjective/valid/proven wrong/etc2.. I am asking you why cant you said "I dislike AOT pacing. The pacing was inconsistent."There is something wrong with being a relativist, especially when we are discussing quality of shows. People seem have the idea that just because its subjective in anime, that suddenly all opinions are valid when they are not. Something subjective does not mean that what everyone say is relevant. Opinions can be proven bad. In this case, A is include in B, you just gave objective argument to a subjective feeling ... Why do you bother with such a detail? Back to the main topic. I think archetypal character does reflect a bad writing of the author. People may say there is no character who can't be assimilated with an achetype, and it's probably true. To me,archetype is a mold for characterization,you build a character around it and you should add pretty much things to make him unique and get him away enough from a classic trope (like background, emotion, will, dream ...) Slice of life don't need it that much though. |
NoobStomper said: Ok then. That make it easy and we can end this here. Because IMO pacing is personal thing and inconsistent pacing doesnt make the particular anime bad (IMO).Esper said: Yup opinion can be proven bad. But I am not discussing objective/subjective/valid/proven wrong/etc2.. I am asking you why cant you said "I dislike AOT pacing. The pacing was inconsistent." I have already answered that question though?...option B feels weak, because its like you think its only a personal thing and something a relativist would say whereas option A shows that you have conviction about the criteria you use in judging the pacing and other aspects of the show. pteroz said: Because IMO pacing is subjective. That all to it. In this case, A is include in B, you just gave objective argument to a subjective feeling ... Why do you bother with such a detail? Back to the main topic. I think archetypal character does reflect a bad writing of the author. People may say there is no character who can't be assimilated with an achetype, and it's probably true. To me,archetype is a mold for characterization,you build a character around it and you should add pretty much things to make him unique and get him away enough from a classic trope (like background, emotion, will, dream ...) Slice of life don't need it that much though. |
EsperMay 21, 2016 1:13 PM
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| yeah, pacing is as subjective as all other criteria ... there is no difference, you have to justify it. Anyway, most of the time, pacing is irrelevant because it's average and can't be used to judge anything |
kamisama751 said: pacing can be both objective or subjective... it's objective if using original source as comparison and other series too.. but it's reception will be always subjective...Every show got its own pacing but that doesn't mean they can't be too slow or fast for its content. ex: jojo season 3 many people saying this series is too slow.. objectively, they are adapting around 6-8 chapter per arc which is objectively faster than average battle shounen adaptation (1,7 - 3 normal 17 page weekly chapter) |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
kamisama751 said: so, we should just ignore the effort original maker do and give every credit to anime maker? *slow clapKuma said: pacing can be both objective or subjective... it's objective if using original source as comparison and other series too.. but it's reception will be always subjective... ex: jojo season 3 many people saying this series is too slow.. objectively, they are adapting around 6-8 chapter per arc which is objectively faster than average battle shounen adaptation (1,7 - 3 normal 17 page weekly chapter) What if I tell you that the quality of a show has nothing to do with how the original source is? |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
kamisama751 said: exactly, that's why the reception (quality) is my vary, but there is still objective standard of it by comparising it with original source... it doesn't have any correlation with quality, who siad that? i just want to saying fast and slow can be determined, but bad or good can't..Kuma said: so, we should just ignore the effort original maker do and give every credit to anime maker? *slow clap xD Yes that is what I mean. An adaptation is a stand alone version of the same story. The quality of it is independent of how similar it is with the original source. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| "But it's old!" I'll never understand people considering anime as not worthy tp watch just because it's airing date. "ohh! There's ecchi." sometimes, it all it has, so what's so good about it? |
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