Do you guys think Nisekoi will end in cliché way ?

Chiibi said:

Yeah she is.
Why?
Because she f*cking CHANGES as the story progresses, that's why.


Okay........

Kirisaki Chitoge is a tsundere. A textbook example of one.
She has a lot of pride, she's athletic and likes to think of herself as a strong, tough girl, but she has a vulnerable, very girly side as well. She doesn't like to show that side to many people. She aspires to be a powerful woman like her mother; you'll notice that she really admires her and the first place she runs to, in order to get away from the love triangle is her mother's office. Chitoge loves making new friends. She loves helping those who are in need. She appears to get lonely very easily though and at the start of the manga, she is shown to have rather poor social skills until Raku helps her out and she becomes friends with Onodera and other girls in the class. Even though she is a high-class oujou-sama with everything and more, Chitoge is not a conceited or snobby girl. She finds joy in and treasures simple things (like the very old and worn hair ribbon her mother bought for her) At first, she is embarrassed that Raku is the one she likes (because he is a clueless dork who pisses her off) but she gets over it as she falls more and more in love with him. She ends up throwing away her pride that she so desperately clung to and tries to focus on what would make Raku happy.

The Chitoge now is nothing like the Chitoge from chapter 01.



Extremely.

No, she is far more interesting, since I was able to type a whole paragraph about who she is and her character development.


I'd like to see you make me. lol



Yes, I think it's your personal preference.


Jumping the gun?
Um......do you not understand what love is?


Raku outright says that the fun and pleasant feeling he has with Chitoge is "nothing like" what he feels with Onodera. And yes, I DO think Raku and Chitoge love each other. They went through a lot of shit as a "fake" couple together; any two people who weren't in love at that point wouldn't be feeling the way they are both feeling now.

And no, I don't really think Onodera and Raku had much fun because they were too busy being all nervous and awkward. And annoying.



I don't think you can see where we are coming from because you don't understand what realistic relationships are like. I have an inkling though and I KNOW it's not all sunshine and hearts.

There is NOT, I repeat, NOT

A single f*cking couple on this green earth who do not argue and hurt each other at least ONCE.

If someone tells you different, they are f*cking lying to your face.

Because we are humans and humans are flawed. We are foolish, prideful, insecure creatures who cannot be considerate and all-knowing of the other person's feelings 100% of the time. That is how we are born. It's in our DNA.

So when people are in love, they WILL hurt each other. They will fight. They will say "I hate you" and cry over stupid things they wish they hadn't said. But if they truly DO love each other, they will get past all of that. They still want to be in each other's company. Oh sure, there will be times where they DON'T even want to see each other's faces. But they'll eventually find their way back, because they've learned that they simply CAN'T be without each other. Every little negative thing they go through is a "test". With each test, they get closer because they overcame those tests.

I think that describes Raku and Chitoge perfectly and yes, that is a much deeper relationship than "*blush blush she's cute oh noes I can't talk to her* like he has with Onodera.

If you can't see the difference, I feel sorry for you. :/

Mettie7 said:
What if he gave multiple endings so everyone is happy? But if I had to choose one it'd definitely be Kosaki

The only way in which she "develops" throughout the story is that we learn her backstory and she falls in love with a dude. Stunning development.

I was simply stating the word "love" is quite strong in that context, but I see where you're coming from.

She's a bitch, but Raku still wants her. Great.

You say I don't know anything about love. Great.

I don't think you can see where we are coming from because you don't understand what realistic relationships are like.

Now you're making assumptions about my personal life. Low blow mate. Anyway, I'll ignore that childish insult and pretend you never said that.

Yet again, you fail to see the bigger picture. I can agree that real people that love each other have arguments. I agree that love isn't always pretty. But you have one fundamental flaw in your argument. The characters in which we are talking about. Let's go back to basics here. It is proven that the more time you spend with someone, the more likely it is you will fall in love with them.

So what about Kosaki? Despite being told that they have known each other for a very long time, the have low propinquity. They only see each other in school and on rare occasions outside of school. In school, they never really talk much. So it's less likely they'll fall for each other. That's kind of weird right? They're in love, but they don't see each other much.
They don't know each other very well due to this. However, Raku loves her and Kosaki loves him for reasons unexplained other than he thinks she's really nice or whatever.

Throughout your essays you seem to think Raku sees Kosaki as flawless.

You seem to think Kosaki is a perfect girl with no flaws. Wrong again. Kosaki has many traits which could be considered as flaws. She's quite clumsy, she isn't very athletic, she's not overly smart (as seen in the middle school flashback), she's not very confident or assertive and she's not great at cooking(as seen in Valentine's day chapter). These could be considered flaws.

So why does Raku like her so much despite these flaws? Suddenly, I remember that all important thing you said:"they love each other despite their flaws". Raku sees these flaws on many occasions but never says "damn she stupid" or "damn what a useless bitch". He likes her flaws. Hmmm..... I am reminded of that thing you said again....

Kosaki and Raku don't have very many arguments because they hold each other as their dream partner, and to put it in more scientific terms, they have low propinquity so they don't have very many interactions, therefore less likely to have arguments. Do you see where I'm coming from?

You say Chitoge's relationship with him is perfect.

But Raku and Kosaki's relationship is one of hope.

I'm a dreamer. I think that kind of relationship is compelling. Maybe you're a cynic or a realist, which is why you don't agree, or maybe you haven't looked hard enough.

Chiibi said:

You're wrong; she becomes kinder and more generous. The only way she was able to form a social life was through Raku too.



It's not strong in that context. There's no word that better defines it.


She's not a bitch.




No, I said:





Lol GIMME A BREAK.

You typed "Is there something I'm missing? Enlighten me"

Then you whine like a baby when someone tries to do that. If you don't want to be "enlightened", don't ask.



I don't agree with that because I spent LOTS of time with a male friend and I didn't fall in love with him. He felt like my brother. This is why I almost never root for childhood friends in love stories. It's stupid and unrealistic.



Kosaki "likes" Raku because "plot". She was created to get in Chitoge's way and be a conflict.

Raku ISN'T "in love" with Kosaki. He only thinks he is.


HE DOES.

Have you EVER seen him get angry with her or criticize her or think negative thoughts about her!?

NOPE.

He puts her up on a f*cking pedestal. Raku being "in love" with Kosucky is like how an American fanboy is "in love" with a Playboy model.

It sure as hell isn't deeper than that.


Don't need to tell ME twice. Lol. I KNOW she sucks at everything...except decorating. She's stupid, she's weak, she's submissive, she's clumsier than a magical girl shoujo heroine, she has no life other than fawning over a crush. She is one of the worst female "characters" I've ever had the displeasure to meet. Why do you think female fans of Nisekoi hate this waste of life so much?



You would have a point if Raku DID see her flaws.
But he doesn't.
He's never pointed out a SINGLE one.




Yes, basically "They don't know each other well enough to interact like normal human beings, therfore their crushes are ridiculous".
That's what I keep telling you.


I never said that. I said "They love each other". There is no such thing as a "perfect relationship" I just told you that.
Maybe your memory is bad?


More like one of crap. XD


I don't agree because I don't like shallow relationships.

eogo said:

OK. You begin by saying Chitoge develops and therefore is a good character. I've never delved into Chitoge as a character too deeply in my replies, so let's get right into it. Chitoge is a tsundere. You said so youself, she is a "textbook" tsundere. Right off the bat, it's clear she is a tsundere. She acts in a strangely violent way and isn't very fond of our main character. The way I distinguish a good tsundere from a bad tsundere is simple. I simply ask the question: Why do they act this way? So when I see Chitoge, I ask myself, why does she act so violently? Why does she act so abrasive? Why is she bad at making friends? Let's tackle the last question first. Your answer to this question might be that, as seen in chapter 6, Claude used to harass her friends and check their backgrounds and whatnot. But this doesn't explain her inability to make friends. She was clearly capable of making friends initially, and if Claude was bothering her so much, she could tell her father to stop him.

Any reason for her inability to make friends has not been given.

Therefore, the point you make that she was only able to have a social life due to Raku is incorrect.

Now to her violent tendencies. As much as I am quick to dismiss these violent moments as "comedic relief", I believe it is an aspect of her character. She is violent. That much I think we can agree on. On many occasions she hits Raku, but strangely we never see her act violently towards anyone else in particular.

She never hits Shuu from what I can remember despite all the perverted shit he does.

And yet, when Raku does says something stupid, he gets a fist to the face. You may say it's a way she expresses her love for Raku or something, but that's kinda fucked up don't ya think?

In contrast to Chitoge, who only hits Raku and no real reason is given for why she is so violent towards one person in particular. This element of her character is very strange and yet again, no reason is given to why she acts this way.

I don't remember a moment later in the story where she acts kindly towards someone other than Raku that she wouldn't have done earlier in the story. The point I'm making here is that she only grows more tolerant of Raku.

So what happens in these 198 chapters between? We don't learn why she acts the way she acts. We don't learn why she's so violent towards Raku in particular. She confirms her feelings for Raku at chapter 49. I these chapters in between 223 and 49, we still don't get an answer.

Most of the questions I had about Chitoge as a person aren't answered. So I ask the vital question. Why does she act this way? We don't know. It's not explained or shown. Therefore, I can confirm, she is a badly written tsundere, thus she is a badly written character.

She hits Raku for no apparent reason.

Why does Chitoge hit Raku and no one else?

Why can't Chitoge make friends despite making no sense?

Why doesn't Chitoge work it out with Raku earlier on in the story?

Do you see where I'm going with this?

She's actually extremely inconsistent and is a poor tsundere.

Kosaki isn't badly written

I still think her character isn't extremely well written, but better written than Chitoge.

Chiibi said:

Claude is a total dick....if you haven't noticed. I don't think he would stop even if he was told. Also, Chitoge's social skills aren't very good in the beginning either.


Not everything has to be spelled out for you, like you're incapable of thought. Most tsundere have a hard time making friends. They tend to be outcasts or isolate themselves. Maybe they have ONE good friend. Taiga had Minori and Chitoge has Tsugumi.


No, I think it's quite true.


She hits Raku when he pisses her off.


I think she has hit Shuu before but there's really no need because Ruri beats the living shit outta him first.


I don't really like it WHEN she hits him. I like her character in spite of being that way. And she did stop hitting him eventually.



Ummmm

Do you pay attention AT ALL when Raku talks to her through most of the series? He calls her "gorilla", he comments about her weight and other things girls worry about, he says really insensitive things that would piss any girl off.


She and Marika used to hate each other but now they are friends. She was never as good as friends with Onodera as she is now. She got to be super-close with her mother. She got closer to EVERYONE....except maybe Tsugumi who has always been like her sister anyway.


Again, I don't need things spelled out for me. I know exactly why she acts that way. Raku is a very frustrating person. Hell, I LIKE Raku (and I'm one of the few people who does) but even I want to punch him sometimes....



The only thing you've confirmed is that you don't understand things unless they are spoon-fed to you. Poor you.


Do you even read this manga? Are we talking about the same series?


BECAUSE HE MAKES HER MAD.

Good Lord.....it isn't rocket science, man.


It does make sense.
Would you want to hang around a member of a family in a gang? Does that sound the least bit scary to you? If it was me, I'd be a little bit intimidated.


Work what out?


No.


She's one of the better ones I've seen. I don't like ones that NEVER change. But she changed.



..........wat......

............"not badly wr...." "KOSAKI!?"

"KOSAKI ONODERA ISN'T BADLY WRITTEN"?!!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

THERE'S NO WRITING TO HER AT ALL!!! SHE IS THE MOST ONE-DIMENSIONAL THING I'VE EVER SEEN.

Thanks for that. I had a rough day. Needed to LOL.


You think wrong.

Do you understand how character writing works?

At all?


The author said:"I'm going to create an otaku fetish", he didn't say:"I'm going to create a character".

[insert Kosaki]

Kosaki isn't a character.She's "fanservice". She is the most uncharacter of characters. I have seen 11-minute cartoons with more developed characters than her. In fact, a ROCK has more character than Kosaki does.

At the beginning of the manga, she is a shy doormat who likes Raku.

224 chapters later?

SHE'S STILL THE F*CKING SAME AS EVER.

That's why people hate her.

Yes, Chitoge fits into the tsundere stereotype....but it's not like just ANY tsundere could replace her. There's more than one way to write a tsundere. Chitoge isn't anything like Taiga or Shana or Stella. (well ok, maybe Stella a little but Chitoge was written first) The closest character I can think of her resembling would probably be Akane from Ranma 1/2 (whom I ironically hate but that's because I don't like anything about her) But she's even different from Akane as in she's much more attractive, classy, and girly and doesn't claim to "hate men" like Akane does.

There's Tsugumi, Ruri, Paula, and Haru who are all tsundere too. Can you say Chitoge acts EXACTLY like them? She doesn't.

One of the main points you make is that the reason why Chitoge hits Raku is because he annoys her. So, if someone insulted you, would you throw the fuck down and start throwing hands, or would you act like a rational human being and sort out the problem. I'm sure it's the latter.

This notion that Chitoge is justified to hit Raku just because he insults her a few times is ridiculous.

So much for "she did stop hitting him eventually".

You seem to think Claude would continue to harass her friends simply because he's a "dick". I don't think you understand. A gang leader has full authority over his gang, hence the term"leader". Chitoge's father is the leader. Claude is a member of his gang. Therefore, her father has full authority over Claude. As you may know, disobedience towards gang leaders doesn't end well. It's not a question of Claude's personality. If he was the gang leader, I would excuse this reason, but alas, that is not the case. Chitoge's father clearly cares for her and wouldn't want her life to be in ruins simply because of a gang member.

You then continue by saying all tsunderes have trouble making friends, which is a generalisation of all tsundere characters. This is quite contradictory because you make the case that not all tsunderes are the same.

Staying away from people simply because of their background is kind of prejudiced.

As for Marika, the only reason why they hated each other in the first place was because of Raku. If Raku never met them, they would most likely get on fine. The only reason why they stop fighting is because Marika fucks off to America.

As I have stated before, all I want is a reason as to why she acts this way. Just a simple few lines of dialogue or a flashback sequence.

This allows us to relate with Spike's troubles and makes the experience thoroughly enjoyable.

You seem to think Chitoge is unique and cannot be replaced by any other tsundere. You say she is"attractive, classy, and girly and doesn't claim to hate men". You have given reasons as to why she is interesting in previous replies which I have already debunked.

Attractive? I can admit her character design is pleasing to the eye. However, looks don't make a character, so let's move on. Classy? Here's where I disagree. She hits people only because she's slightly annoyed? If Raku did something appalling like hit her, I would forgive her actions, but alas that is not the case. That's not very classy. Girly? That's how you differentiate characters? Based on how girly they are? I don't really understand so let's move on.

I know a tsundere that is all of the above and makes sense off the top of my head. Asuka from Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Why is she violent?

Why does she have trouble making friends?

Why is she so abrasive in the first place?

Nothing special about her.

Sorry to break it to you, but a character like that will never be a the best of the best.

Chiibi said:
I don't know why you INSIST on quoting my entire post answering YOUR entire post but you should stop it. It's ridiculous.


This is fiction, not reality. Learn the difference.


I never said it WASN'T ridiculous. But you insisted that she "hits him for no reason" which is FALSE.


Well, SHE DID.


Hello, he just tried to KILL Tsugumi who is near and dear to Chitoge. He is a selfish prick and an irrational human being. He doesn't care about what Chitoge wants at all. Yes, Chitoge's father loves her....but it's like he barely exists....or knows what's going on. We don't see him very much.


They aren't the same but that doesn't mean they can't share at least ONE common trait....and they normally do.


Japan is incredibly prejudiced. When they found out that a rapist and murderer happened to be an otaku, they began to label ALL otaku as such. This happened in the 80s. It's somewhat died down nowadays. Anyway, just because it's prejudiced, doesn't mean people won't do it.


It's not just because of Raku. They just have different personalities so they butt heads. Chitoge has a short temper and Marika LOVES to troll. That's not a good combo.

Chitoge acted like a best friend when they went chasing after Marika. Explain THAT.


Nobody else is begging for one. Aren't you a special snowflake.

Why is Raku dense?
Why does Marika like to troll people?
Why is Tsugumi in such denial of her womanhood?
Why is Kosaki so f*cking shy?

NOBODY'S BACKGROUND IS EXPLAINED. They're like that because that's who they are. Chitoge's no different.


I did not enjoy Bebop on a whole. It was extremely boring. Sorry.

.........ah, no, I'm not.


Lol, you haven't debunked SHIT. You have biased hatred against her, just like I have biased hatred towards Onodoodoo.

"A character who develops is more interesting than one who does not."

Meaning: Chitoge >>>>>Kosaki

You CANNOT "debunk" (lol by the way) that Chitoge developed. You can hate her all ya want but are you really going to deny that she changed into a better person?



Good grief.

PAY ATTENTION!!

I said, compared to Akane Tendo, she is all those things. Akane shares traits with Chitoge, but the facts that Akane is unattractive, not high-class, and a total tomboy who hates guys makes the two different.




Ugh, I hate Asuka. Talk about a total bitch whose actions don't make sense.....Asuka is a PERFECT example of a "bad tsundere". She's ALL tsun and no dere.


Because she has anger issues. People CAN be born with them, you know? She probably inherited them from her mother. Do you not remember how her mother makes death threats to other people? Including her husband.


Because Claude chases them away.


See answer to number 1.


There's not really anything "special" about ANY of the characters in the series. They are all stereotypes. Marika's the sick girl, Tsugumi's the tomboy, Onodera's the shrinking violet. These tropes can be found in most harem series. But a character doesn't HAVE to be "special" to be a good or likable character.

I still can't think of a tsundere who is EXACTLY like Chitoge......and I've seen a lot of tsundere anime.


Best of the best? As you can see, she's not even in my top ten list. She's just the best girl in Nisekoi. She's everyone's favorite in Nisekoi and there's a reason.

eogo said:

I'm not going to change how I write for your pleasure. I prefer to write this way. Get over it.

The next point you make is probably the most ridiculous thing you've said so far, which is saying something. It's just fiction? Really? So if a character doesn't make sense, you blame it on the work being fiction?

If something strange happens with no explanation, you blame it on the work being fiction?

Yet again, it's like you're saying to the creators: "Hey! I don't care if characters make sense or not! It's just fiction!".

Nisekoi takes place in modern Japan. A normal setting.
Nothing supernatural happens throughout the story. Therefore, I would expect the lead female of this slice of life romance to at least make some amount of sense.

The point I'm trying to make with this violence against Raku issue is that no rational human being would act like this.

I can't relate to her.

I can't relate to Chitoge because every time she does something outlandish, the illusion that she is a real person crumbles.

The point I was trying to make about her hitting him in chapter 199 was that it was fairly recent and there's nothing stopping her from doing it again.

Now, on to Claude. You say he tried to kill Tsugumi. While I don't think he would simply murder his apprentice that he trained for years on a whim, but that is all speculation. It is true that Claude is a prick or whatever. He obviously cares for Chitoge, but his way of expressing it is quite backwards. None of that changes his position in the gang. No matter how much Chitoge's father appears, he is still the leader. That hasn't changed. He still has authority over Claude. Claude's personality has nothing to do with his position in the gang.

You say all tsunderes usually have one trait in common. That trait being not making many friends. While historically this may be correct, there must at least be a reason for why that is so. It just so happens that the reason Chitoge has is faulty.

I don't know how gangs are treated in America because I don't live there

Now, on to Marika and Chitoge. You describe Marika as a "troll". I would describe her as spoiled. This would explain her possessive and sometimes childish nature. Yes, their personalities collide slightly, but that doesn't mean they would hate each other. If Raku never existed Marika would have no predisposed hatred of Chitoge. I can admit that I'm short tempered. One of my best friend likes messing with people from time to time. Just because our personalities are slightly different, doesn't mean we can't be friends. I bet all the friends you have don't have a similar personality as you, yes?

You seem to think I'm a special snowflake. How amusing. I'm a special snowflake because I want a reason as to why a character acts immaturely?

I'm a special snowflake because I want a reason as to why a character can't make friends?

By your logic, plot holes only exist because of special snowflakes who want reasons.

Why is Raku so dense? Raku has low self-confidence. He wants a normal job and he just wants to be a normal guy. He states on several occasions that Kosaki would never like a guy like him. This shows us that he doesn't think very highly of himself. The idea that his dream girl likes him is beyond him.

Hitting people for petty reasons is not normal.

Why does Marika troll people? Like I said, I would describe her as spoiled. She devotes many years of her life to one guy and enjoys seeing people fail to have the same devotion she has. It's a childish attitude, like I said before. But, given her background as a spoiled daddy's girl, that is to be expected.

Why is Kosaki shy? Kosaki also has low self-confidence. As you and I have both pointed out, she isn't very talented at anything in particular. She isn't athletic like Chitoge, she's not confident like Marika and she's not as devoted or skilled as Tsugumi. She's surrounded by people who are more motivated than her. Even Ruri has a passion in swimming. So, when she's around the only real thing she cares about, Raku, she's scared. She's scared that she's going to come last again. That's the impression I get.

Anyway, it's natural to be shy around your crush.

I pay attention, and I still don't know why Chitoge acts the way she does in many scenarios.

You found Bebop boring.

While I could continue for days about how Bebop is a masterpiece in character stories that has the best animation that tops many shows being released to this day

has compelling and interesting characters

has an empowering final episode and a top-notch soundtrack to boot

I feel like you wouldn't appreciate that. Besides, that's another argument for another day. The point I was making about Bebop wasn't that the show is amazing, I was simply stating how well the show conveys its main character, Spike. For some reason you ignored all my points on how Spike is set up as a relatable and interesting character and focused on one line.

Actually, believe it or not, I have pointed out contradictions in many of your statements on Chitoge. If you read back, you can see that I have pointed out flaws in every description of Chitoge you have given. Your original description of her was that she was tough, athletic, liked making friends, admires her mother and that's pretty much it. I have already said how many aspects of this description still doesn't give me an idea of who she is.

If you want me to tell you how pointless this description of her is even after reading my earlier reply to it, feel free to ask. You then state that a character that develops is more interesting than one that does not. While in many cases this statement is not true, I admit it works in most cases. However, in every description you make of her development, I find flaws. Read back again. You said she has friends because of Raku. I have pointed out the plot hole here several times. In case you need a reminder, the excuse that Claude stopped her from making friends is bullshit and I have given evidence to support this. He isn't the gang leader. Tell him to stop or there will be consequences.

You still seem to be under the impression that Chitoge goes through a lot of development. You have yet to give me a valid way in which she does so.

So you like Chitoge and don't like Asuka because she's a "bitch who's actions don't make sense". Oh my. Now that's amusing. A character whose actions don't make sense.... Hmmm I wonder what other character's actions don't make sense.. Oh wait! I remembered! You want her to make sense? Special snowflake! It's just fiction! Oh the irony.

I'm done with sarcasm for now.

You say Asuka doesn't make sense. She does. Let me tell you why she acts the way she does. Asuka, in ever sense of the word, is an attention seeker. She craves praise constantly and always wants to be the best. This is shown when she gets frustrated when Shinji gets praised for showing better piloting skills than her later into the series. Why is this the case? She had mother issues. Her mother never paid attention to her, and thus craves the attention she never got as a child. Asuka wants to be the best so she can have some sort of approval. That she isn't a waste of life. That her mother's bad parenting didn't effect her. But it did. She constantly puts Shinji down to feel better about herself. On first inspection, this may seem bitchy, but when we get a reason for this we suddenly understand everything. Everything falls into place. While the method in which this information is given to us isn't amazing, it's better than nothing. Just because she doesn't show much dere, doesn't mean she's a bad character.

So now you blame Chitoge's actions on anger issues. I knew you might say this, but I never thought you actually would. Anyway, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say she actually does. Why hasn't she seeked help or treatment?

Why is the only person she ever takes her anger out on Raku? Marika pisses her off, so if she had anger issues, I'm pretty sure she would throw the fuck down.

How can a person who beats a guy regularly be likable?

Every thing that stands out about Chitoge is unlikable.

I've said this countless times, and I'll say it countless times more until you give me a counter-argument. She doesn't make sense. How can a character that doesn't make sense be relatable or likable in the slightest?

Chiibi said:

I'm not the one who needs to "get over it". The mods aren't very fond of it either. I think it's in the rules somewhere like "there is no need to quote every post you respond to". Or something like that.

And I am NOT grasping at straws.

……(GIANT PLACEHOLDER TO THE EXTENSIVE DEBATE UP ABOVE)……

So maybe YOU are the one with the problem, not us?

WeR1 said:



OK, now that the Waifu Wars (a fitting alternate title don't you think?) has reached a feverish pitch, I'll just go ahead and throw in my two cents here. I do not intend to use this as a new argument for one girl or the other, just merely an insight into the mind of an Onodera fan to (hopefully) clear up the mess that had snowballed throughout the course of this extensive debate. This mind, of course, is mine, and it may not apply to other fans of whichever character you pick.

First off, I'm not a blind loyalist, I am acutely aware of the changes and developments (which ultimately led to improvement) that Chitoge has gotten throughout the series. You guys have mentioned the concept of being a tsundere and I won't waste your time here and I'll simplify my points instead. Tsundere, in its very name, implies a moving dynamic, a changing character. Most anime/manga fans, even ones that aren't big on the romance genres, are at least aware of this character type. I myself have encountered a good number of such types and I adore a lot of them. However, there was a disconnect within myself that I wasn't even aware of before starting this series, and that was the type of tsunderes that I'm into (hooray for subtypes!). When a tsundere character is introduced, that character can either come as the name implies (tsun AND dere) or the character can be primarily tsun before introducing the dere part after a time. After some introspection, I found that much prefer the former type, and while I have no issue with the latter type, I prefer the dere to be added quickly if I ever saw a character like that. This ultimately set me up for disappointment in Chitoge as she was introduced as fully tsun and ERROR 404: DERE NOT FOUND, with the final nail being the absence of that dere element until after 40 or so chapters (or most of the first season of the anime). Not only that, the tsun element was quite jarring for me to see without the presence of the dere element, and this was what kept me from hopping on the Chitoge wagon even after the dere has finally been introduced.
This is not the characters fault, it's what I interpreted in those characters is what caused me to make that call.

So I gave you my thought process on "why not Chitoge" and now I'll do the same with "why Onodera."
The above points about Chitoge played a lot into answering this but I'll also give a few points about Onodera herself. When she was initially introduced I immediately thought of her as a deredere type character who, very simply, loves Raku, no strings attached (regardless of all this key and pendant business). I thought of that love as simple and pure, it's a kind of love that doesn't need much development despite her awkward tendencies. Of course, as the series went on, that reason was no longer sufficient as Marika came into the picture, a person who displayed that love, except that love had been through hell and she was willing to move mountains for that love (which ultimately places her at second on my list), it was a hell-bent effort that touched Raku enough to make that effort to rescue her despite his feelings for her is not the same as hers is for him. So once again, I had to do some introspecting, and while I still don't have a one and done answer, I can still start with her aforementioned awkward tendencies. For the Chitoge fans and Onodera haters, this tendency, along with her multiple failed attempts (if you could call them that) at securing Raku's love is her weakness and it shows her lack of development as a character. But for me as her fan, it is actually something to be related to, even after it got to the point where I got tired of seeing all those failed attempts. Like her, I can be very shy about putting my feelings out there and I can be envious of Marika type people who can. Like her, I can get very complacent about a crush to the point where I can make excuses for not attempting a move (i.e. "There's no way she likes a person like me"). I can do a lot more "like her" sentences but you guys will probably just get bored. Point is, the person that she is is not a person to be scorned at, but rather (and this will sound weird considering that she's a fictional character) a person to relate to and fall in love with. This is why I've decided to not only go with Team Onodera but also to ride with it to its bitter end (which may come in the upcoming chapter 225).
Again, this is my interpretation of these characters and it's my own personal response to it, I am not expecting you guys to agree and relate to any of these points, but hopefully it'll give you guys an insight as to how different fans think and we can perhaps move this into more of a Waifu Discussion rather than a Waifu War.

Chiibi said:

I'm not the one who needs to "get over it". The mods aren't very fond of it either. I think it's in the rules somewhere like "there is no need to quote every post you respond to". Or something like that.

And I am NOT grasping at straws.


The ridiculous one is you. That isn't what I said. Chitoge DOES make sense to me. She doesn't make sense to you.....whatever. But she makes sense to ME.


"Strange"?
A girl smacking a guy out of anger is as normal in anime as it is to see one with blue hair.

Quit f*cking putting words in my mouth.



How the f*ck is hitting someone related to supernatural events? Are you retarded?


They would if they had to put up with how dense Raku is.


I can. Because there's more to her than just hitting Raku. Maybe you didn't notice.


That's really stupid.


Then why hasn't she? I think she has matured somewhat.


I would say blame Komi then, for not giving Chitoge's dad more scenes of power.


It ISN'T faulty; I just pointed out TWO reasons why she couldn't: Claude and her own poor social skills. The manga outright tells us this. It's not my fault you won't buy it, now is it?

Badly
I can't tell you how many times people are shot to death by gang members here. It's tragic and terrifying.


A troll is defined as "someone who delights in making other people angry. This is Marika. We don't know why she is this way, but I just accept it. I'm just assuming she's a sadist. Her spoiled background shouldn't have much to do with that. But you don't see me whining about why we aren't told how she becomes twisted like that.



You're a special snowflake because you're the only one whining about Chitoge's actions "not making sense". Seriously, you are the first person I've seen to complain about that.



WE GOT TWO REASONS. THE STORY TOLD YOU. ACCEPT THEM AND MOVE ON.


We aren't TALKING about plot holes! Why are you bringing them up?



No, Raku's denseness goes WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY beyond that. He should have been able to figure it out the way she blushes and goes all shy and stuttery around him. Multiple times. SO MANY F*CKING TIMES.

Komi keeps him dense because status quo.


Again, in manga and anime, it surely IS. It is the normal reaction from a girl when the guy does something she dislikes. Is this your first series or.....?


Sorry, no. That doesn't explain her sadism.


AHA.

IMPRESSION, EH?

So it's okay for you to get impressions from Onodera to explain what is unexplained but it's NOT okay for ME to get them about Chitoge?
Hypocrite much?



Not for THAT many f*cking years.
And at THAT age? There's something wrong with her. lol



How come me and other people who like her know why? Are we just smarter than you? lol


Yes, painfully so, at times.


blah blah blah blah


Not for me. I couldn't really get myself to care about any of them that much.


I. HATE. JAZZ.
And character death endings make me really sad and I'll cry or think about them as painful memories. Normally. But this time I was like "Oh, guess he's dead. Ha, that sucks." and then moved onto something else. That's when I realized that I didn't care about the characters that much. And I was like "wow".


Our opinions differ on that. *shrugs* Can't be helped.
Also....this.....overrated, doofy-haired asshole hates ANIMALS?
Who the f*ck hates animals?
I could never relate to a douche like that.
That's worse than hitting out of anger.
Nobody hates animals!




I have NO clue what else you are looking for? Personality traits? Interests? Personal goals? What?


THE MANGA AND SHOW OUTRIGHT TELL YOU IT'S CLAUDE.
Don't fight with me over what the facts are. Claude does what he wants.

Also, did you forget about the whole notebook scene? Raku gave her all those tips on how to talk to the other girls in class; that's how she was able to make friends. He went through the same experience so he shared it with her. It's a very touching scene. Oh, but you hate them so you probably blocked it from your memory, huh?



She DOES. In the beginning she had a lot of pride, she wouldn't even admit to HERSELF that she loved Raku, she spent so much time in denial. But she threw away her pride and stopped being petty for the sake of love and the sake of others' feelings.

Here's one big one: Though she's kind to people, Chitoge DOES think about herself a lot. You can compare the dates she went on with Raku to the later ones. In the previous ones, she basically did what she wanted to do and she didn't care if Raku didn't like it. But after she falls seriously in love with him, all she can think about is how to make him happy. That IS a big step for her character. That chapter had much significance in how much she matured. She understands what love is actually about now.


First of all, f*ck you.

Secondly, EVA is a MUCH different story and genre. Chitoge's violent, more unlikable tendencies are mostly played for LAUGHS but Asuka's are played completely straight. When she abuses Shinji, it's not funny, it's really mean-spirited. It's bullying not because she likes him but because he's weaker than she is. That makes their relationship disturbing and unappealing, which in turn makes Asuka HERSELF really unlikable. It's obvious Shinji brings out the worst in her.



You better be; you are really f*cking annoying.


Not all of her actions make sense to me. If she likes Kaji, why did she kiss Shinji? Why does she abuse HIM specifically? Does she like him or does she HATE him? She mostly acts like she hates him but then she does that kinda shit. It's like she's bi-polar or something. The pairing makes no f*cking sense to me.



Because this is manga and girls don't do that. I have not read a SINGLE manga where a girl goes "Wow, I hit him a lot. I should get therapy!!"
No manga (especially a love-comedy manga) is that grounded in reality. Which apparently you can't wrap your brain around.


She HAS taken her anger out on Marika though. There's a hilarious scene where Marika dives to hug Raku and Chitoge intercepts her and throws her like a sack of potatoes.

I made a gif of it.



HAW HAW HAW

Anyway, let's look at reasons Chitoge hits Raku:

1. When she thinks he's being a pervert.

MOST girls will hit or kick in this case. At least a slap to the face. This is most frequent reason that Chitoge and other tsundere (hell, you don't have to be a tsundere) will hit a boy for. It's an automatic reaction. In peeping cases, it's used for two reasons; comedy and also to launch the guy away from the girl so he stops doing whatever he was (or what she thinks he was) doing.

2. When he comments on things she's sensitive about or insults her. I think she hits him for insults more.

3. When his stupidity frustrates her to the point where she can't take it anymore.

4. When she thinks he's being too close with Marika. I'm glad she only attacked him once or twice for this, because you're right, she SHOULD take it out on Marika....and she begins to later on.


Because she has other traits that ARE likable. And it's not THAT regularly.


You are in the minority. I find characters like Haru and Onodera WAY more unlikable. Chitoge only has ONE unlikable trait: being violent....and it looks like she's growing out of it. So I don't see why you hate her so much, really.



I'll say it a thousand times too; YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE IN THIS FORUM WHO THINKS SHE "DOESN'T MAKE SENSE".

So maybe YOU are the one with the problem, not us?

Leafina said:


fUCKING kudos to you. Excatly my opinion. You managed to make that whole Waifu War become a less steroid subject.. though, id like to say something,
@Chiibi ,
your insults are stale, hypocritical, and you seem to have been utterly confused at some of the smart remarks youve been making. You completely made this whole forum fall off-track because you were butthurt someone doesnt suck chitoges tits. Please respect peoples opinions and don't go bashing on them so crudely. If they bother take it over message. Or even better, don't harass them at all.

Now that's over with, lets get this forum back on track.

Will Nisekoi and in a clichè way?

Albeit my wishes, we all know who will most likely win (Chitoge) unless the author has something up his sleeve.. though its a bit too late for that now, with such a prominent ending already as obvious as birdshit on a car. Just my two cents.

WeR1 said:



OK, now that the Waifu Wars (a fitting alternate title don't you think?) has reached a feverish pitch, I'll just go ahead and throw in my two cents here. I do not intend to use this as a new argument for one girl or the other, just merely an insight into the mind of an Onodera fan to (hopefully) clear up the mess that had snowballed throughout the course of this extensive debate. This mind, of course, is mine, and it may not apply to other fans of whichever character you pick.

First off, I'm not a blind loyalist, I am acutely aware of the changes and developments (which ultimately led to improvement) that Chitoge has gotten throughout the series. You guys have mentioned the concept of being a tsundere and I won't waste your time here and I'll simplify my points instead. Tsundere, in its very name, implies a moving dynamic, a changing character. Most anime/manga fans, even ones that aren't big on the romance genres, are at least aware of this character type. I myself have encountered a good number of such types and I adore a lot of them. However, there was a disconnect within myself that I wasn't even aware of before starting this series, and that was the type of tsunderes that I'm into (hooray for subtypes!). When a tsundere character is introduced, that character can either come as the name implies (tsun AND dere) or the character can be primarily tsun before introducing the dere part after a time. After some introspection, I found that much prefer the former type, and while I have no issue with the latter type, I prefer the dere to be added quickly if I ever saw a character like that. This ultimately set me up for disappointment in Chitoge as she was introduced as fully tsun and ERROR 404: DERE NOT FOUND, with the final nail being the absence of that dere element until after 40 or so chapters (or most of the first season of the anime). Not only that, the tsun element was quite jarring for me to see without the presence of the dere element, and this was what kept me from hopping on the Chitoge wagon even after the dere has finally been introduced.
This is not the characters fault, it's what I interpreted in those characters is what caused me to make that call.

So I gave you my thought process on "why not Chitoge" and now I'll do the same with "why Onodera."
The above points about Chitoge played a lot into answering this but I'll also give a few points about Onodera herself. When she was initially introduced I immediately thought of her as a deredere type character who, very simply, loves Raku, no strings attached (regardless of all this key and pendant business). I thought of that love as simple and pure, it's a kind of love that doesn't need much development despite her awkward tendencies. Of course, as the series went on, that reason was no longer sufficient as Marika came into the picture, a person who displayed that love, except that love had been through hell and she was willing to move mountains for that love (which ultimately places her at second on my list), it was a hell-bent effort that touched Raku enough to make that effort to rescue her despite his feelings for her is not the same as hers is for him. So once again, I had to do some introspecting, and while I still don't have a one and done answer, I can still start with her aforementioned awkward tendencies. For the Chitoge fans and Onodera haters, this tendency, along with her multiple failed attempts (if you could call them that) at securing Raku's love is her weakness and it shows her lack of development as a character. But for me as her fan, it is actually something to be related to, even after it got to the point where I got tired of seeing all those failed attempts. Like her, I can be very shy about putting my feelings out there and I can be envious of Marika type people who can. Like her, I can get very complacent about a crush to the point where I can make excuses for not attempting a move (i.e. "There's no way she likes a person like me"). I can do a lot more "like her" sentences but you guys will probably just get bored. Point is, the person that she is is not a person to be scorned at, but rather (and this will sound weird considering that she's a fictional character) a person to relate to and fall in love with. This is why I've decided to not only go with Team Onodera but also to ride with it to its bitter end (which may come in the upcoming chapter 225).
Again, this is my interpretation of these characters and it's my own personal response to it, I am not expecting you guys to agree and relate to any of these points, but hopefully it'll give you guys an insight as to how different fans think and we can perhaps move this into more of a Waifu Discussion rather than a Waifu War.

eogo said:

Just a reminder, the "grasping at straws" statement I made was in regards to your whole reply, not just your first point.
I have read the forum guidelines. There is nothing there about quoting entire essays. I have no idea what you're talking about. So I'll say it again. This is how I like to write. Get over it.
Your first point is that Chitoge makes sense to you. She makes sense to you? So a person that hits another on a whim makes sense to you? I have explained multiple times how inconsistent her violent tendencies are and why the reason for her doing so is petty. She also doesn't make sense because the reason given for her inability to make friends is bullshit. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Chitoge's father is the head of the gang. That was established very early on in the manga. He has complete authority over Claude. These aspects combined tell us one thing. Hey, that doesn't make sense. I am aware you have made more counter-arguments to my points above. I will explain how they are pointless in due time. Patience my friend. You still don't think that your statement that it's just "fiction" is ridiculous. That's beyond me. You previously blamed Chitoge's actions on the work being fiction. You blamed character inconsistencies on the work being fiction. By your logic, characters in a work of fiction are allowed to be inconsistent and irrational no matter the circumstances. Do you now realise how ridiculous this is?
You then say a girl smacking a guy is natural in anime. Let me remind you that smacking isn't all she does. She kicks, punches, dropkicks and more. Also, just because it's common, doesn't excuse its presence. Fanservice is very common in anime, yet it is constantly criticised by many fans. By your logic, because fanservice is common, it is completely fine and doesn't ruin or effect a show. Once again, your logic is mind-boggling.
You say I'm putting words in your mouth. I'm not, I'm simply showing you how backwards your mindset on this issue is.
I say that it isn't supernatural because the work being a fantasy or supernatural might effect how the characters act. For example, if the world of a show was very dangerous and death rates were high, you would expect the characters to be well-trained for violence and possibly be very jumpy and afraid of any kind of danger. The setting and circumstances would explain if some characters acted strangely. However, as I have pointed out, Nisekoi has a normal setting. No magic, no monsters and no constant threat of danger hanging over each person in the world. Therefore, you would expect the characters to be mostly rational and relatable. I have pointed out how Chitoge is neither of the aforementioned in earlier replies. Calling me retarded isn't going to get you anywhere. Actually, it's quite ironic because you're the one who didn't understand my point.
You still seem to think because Raku is dense, it's okay if Chitoge hits him. What? You would hit someone purely because they slightly frustrate you? No rational human being would hit someone because of their relatively harmless personality. People piss me off every day, but I don't throw down each time they do. Do you know why? I don't because I'm a rational human being. I try to avoid violence.
You then say there is more to Chitoge than violence. Tell me this. Would you want to be in the presence of someone who actively uses violence as a means to take out their frustration? I hope not. As regards to the point that there is more to her as a person, there isn't. There's a few small character details, like her athleticism, but beyond that there's nothing more to her. Like I said, every description of Chitoge you have given has included trivial traits. I have responded to each description you have given. Nothing you have said has convinced me that she is nothing more than an abrasive girl who hits people.
In fact, the point that I make about the illusion crumbling isn't stupid at all. Let's go back to basics. Do you know why you sometimes get sad when a character dies in a story? Do you know why you feel happy when a character gets a happy ending? Do you know why you feel sorry for a character that had a hard childhood? It's called empathy. Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. We mainly feel empathy towards human characters because we understand each other on a fundamental level. We can sometimes even relate with each other's problems. Where I'm going with this is that I don't see Chitoge as a real human being. She doesn't act like one. No real human acts like that, and the only exceptions to this are usually locked up in jail. Every attempt made in the manga to humanise Chitoge fails. The whole "I can't make friends because Claude" thing doesn't make sense. Instead of feeling sorry for her, I was simultaneously laughing and scratching my head. This attempt to humanise Chitoge fails miserably. When she falls in love, I thought to myself: "Maybe she'll stop this madness and atone for what she's done to him!". But alas, her behaviour continues. The failed attempts to humanise her and her outlandish behaviour combined give me one answer and one question. I can't empathise with her. How can people relate or empathise with her?
You ask me why she hasn't hit Raku since chapter 199, I say most of the time since she hasn't even been in his presence. She was too busy running away. Anyway, like I said, it never should have happened in the first place. Three years of it.
I actually don't blame Komi for that. I blame him for giving a shitty excuse as to why Chitoge is bad at making friends. Her father doesn't need scenes of power. It has already been established. He's the leader. Now we know he has full authority over the whole gang. It doesn't really need to be emphasised.
Okay, so now I know how gang members are treated. I still think after many years of exposure to her, people would realise she's normal.
Actually, Marika's childish nature has everything to do with her actions. Her father spoils her. Marika is full of herself. She is confident that Raku loves her, or will love her at some stage. She enjoys seeing other people fail to be as committed to Raku as she is because she's childish. It's bragging rights. Most spoiled children are childish and want everything they set eyes on. This explains her possessive nature as well.
You're very obstinate about this special snowflake thing. This remains to be amusing. You say I'm a special snowflake because not a lot of people complain about Chitoge. Oh dear God. So you're shunning me because I pointed out an inconsistency in a character. I simply said that a short sequence would resolve this issue. So pointing out faults in a work that other people don't see is to be shunned. By your logic, critics are all "special snowflakes" that point out issues in a work that not many people are aware of. Destroy the critics! Everyone should feel the same way about a work of fiction! They just want things to make sense! Vive la Revolution! How very amusing.
You say we got reasons as to why Chitoge can't make friends. I have told you many times how one of these reasons is faulty. The Claude reason. So here, I'll give you a better argument to spice things up a bit. Imagine you said "maybe she's just awkward around people! That's natural". Interesting argument. It's still faulty though. Chitoge is never seen interacting overly awkward towards a main character on several occasions where a normal person wouldn't act awkwardly. She is shown fidgeting once while talking to strangers in chapter 6, but this is the only time I remember where she was overly nervous towards other people. She acts natural towards Kosaki in their early interactions. Same thing with her interactions with Yui. That argument is flawed too. So that can't be the case. No reason has been given that isn't flawed to some extent.
It's quite obvious why I'm bringing up plot holes. A plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. It is established that Chitoge's father has authority over Claude. Why wouldn't she tell her father to order him to stop? This goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. Why does Chitoge hit no one on a regular basis except Raku? This goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. I complain about the plot hole, you call me a special snowflake. By your logic, pointing out plot holes is to be shunned.
Yes, Kosaki blushes and stutters around him. Yes, he would have to be quite dense. However, you can't deny that Raku doesn't think she would like a guy like him. This mindset isn't very admirable, but it certainly is possible. There are many occasions where Raku realises that Kosaki doesn't see him as a normal friend. He is obviously aware that she is fond of him. He is still halted by his indecisive nature and his low self confidence. I don't think it's great for the progression of the story and I would much prefer if Raku made his decision earlier. However, this is still plausible and at least there is a logical explanation as to why he is the way he is. There is no logical explanation as to why Chitoge hits Raku so much for such a petty reason.
You say it's normal in anime that girls hit boys. I have already addressed this. Just because it's common, doesn't mean it's acceptable. For example, if in every 2 anime you watched the story was completely incomprehensible and didn't make sense, would you say: "It's common, so it's okay"? By your logic, you would think this way. Just because it is common, doesn't mean it is acceptable.
I have already explained why Marika is the way she is. It is a logical explanation.
It would be OK if the impressions you had about Chitoge made sense or swung my opinion on her. Every impression you have given I have shown how trivial it has been. If you want me to remind you how trivial they are, I would happily go in to more detail. I'm not being hypocritical, I am pointing out flaws in your analysis. You, on the contrary, attempt to insult me rather that take my analysis in to consideration. You didn't even attempt to point out flaws.
It is quite unusual for someone to be shy around their crush for that amount of time. May I remind you that Kosaki and Raku don't spend a lot of time alone together however. She still isn't quite used to being all alone with him. Her low self-confidence complements this claim. It's perfectly normal for someone to be nervous around someone they don't know too well. There are still occasions where she isn't stuttering and she acts normally, so I think we are witnessing her maturing. It's a pity the spotlight is given more to Chitoge rather than Kosaki, but whatever.
You suggest that people may be smarter because they know why Chitoge acts strangely. There are people who give logical explanations as to why Chitoge only hits one person on a regular basis for petty reasons? Where are they? You certainly aren't giving any logical explanations other than the petty excuses that "it's common" and "he annoys her".
The next few points you make are about Bebop. I am really trying to constrain myself from talking about Bebop here. If you want me to educate you on Bebop, I would gladly do so. However, I will refrain from doing so for the time being. Like I said, that's another argument for another day. I will respond to your comments on Spike because that is related to Nisekoi(the whole background issue). You still don't seem to understand the point I was making. I was trying to point out that making a character that makes sense and is relatable isn't hard. It doesn't have to be time-consuming. The solution to the Chitoge problem is simple. Just take a page out off Bebop's book and give us short sequences that explain why she acts this way. I hope that you can at least realise that doing so would improve Chitoge's character. About Spike hating animals. That's perfectly fine. Some people aren't fond of animals. My friend hates dogs because one bit him as a kid. I don't like cats and horses because I'm allergic to them. I don't like pigs because they stink and all that. Not liking animals is fine. It's not like Spike actively goes around shooting animals and kicking puppies. He doesn't do any of that because he's a rational human being. Hitting someone actively isn't very rational. Believe it or not, it's perfectly fine to hate animals but not do anything harmful towards them.
It's quite simple to see what I'm looking for. A valid character description like I did for Kosaki some time ago. What makes her who she is. What she wants to do. Why she acts he way she does. You have given none of the above that I have not proven to be faulty.
Yes, the manga tells me it's Claude. I know that much. I have pointed out that he is merely a gang member, and doesn't have the right to act as he pleases towards the gang leader's daughter. I have said it once and I will say it again, his personality has nothing to do with this. Her father has complete authority over him and what he does. You then talk about the notebook scene. I have stated on many occasions that I was laughing and scratching my head when I read this. It didn't make sense. It wasn't powerful. To be powerful, I would have to take it seriously. I can't take it seriously if there's a plot hole. You say I blocked it from my memory, which is quite strange, because I have mentioned chapter 6 on several occasions. Clearly, I still remember this chapter. Clearly, I haven't blocked it from memory. I don't see where you were going with that. Maybe it was an attempt at comedy? Ha ha ha I guess?
You say Chitoge threw away her pride and loved Raku. You say she stopped being petty, which I disagree with. Hitting someone for no valid reason is petty. She went to fucking America when she found out about Raku and Kosaki, even though she is aware that a lot of people care for her in Japan, which is petty. Why didn't she just talk it out with Kosaki or if that was too much, wait until Raku made his decision? He wasn't going out with Kosaki. There is no reason to give up. If was rational about her love, she would care for his feelings instead of fucking off to America. I'm not saying she doesn't love Raku, I'm saying she was petty and didn't think of his feelings. You say she loves him despite "the feelings of others". The recent events that I stated above also contradicts that. She leaves because she wants Kosaki to be happy. I thought she didn't care about others when it comes to her love for Raku? You say that Chitoge starts thinking of how Raku feels on dates. While I would argue that Kosaki has always cared for Raku, as shown when she's first introduced, I'll just run with Chitoge for now. Chitoge and Raku are forced to go on a date in chapter 3. That's pretty much at the beginning of the story. I would assume that eventually they get used to it. If I was forced to do something that wasn't that bad for so long, I would eventually stop hating it. So Chitoge not hating the dates has pretty much nothing to do with her loving Raku. Keep in mind I'm not saying enjoying the dates, I'm just saying not hating the dates. Two different things. So what about her caring if Raku has fun or whatever. I'm pretty sure you're deriving this claim from chapter 199, the only chapter where I remember she clearly states that she wanted to cheer Raku up. Let's look at the context here. Raku is down because his childhood friend whom he has spent a considerable amount of time with has moved away. He is worried for her health and realises why she was so possessive and dedicated to him. She didn't have much time with him. So it's fair to assume Raku is feeling pretty guilty and down. Naturally, seeing that Raku is down, Chitoge attempts to cheer him up. Something any friend would do. I assume you think she mightn't have done this earlier in the story. However, I beg to differ. Chitoge also realises all of the above details concerning Marika. She knows how much she means to Raku. If the early Chitoge was placed in the same situation, I have a feeling she would act the same way. If she knew the effect this was having on Raku. It is fair to say that Chitoge pre-Raku wasn't completely devoid of emotion and kindness. If you disagree with this point I have another question. Why only start considering his feelings now? She certainly doesn't care for his feelings when hitting him. My point being here is that she only considers how Raku feels on rare occasions. The recent events highlight this. I can accept if you don't agree with the first proposal that Chitoge pre-Raku would still try and cheer him up, but the questions are quite puzzling to me. On the contrary, Kosaki is shown on multiple occasions caring for Raku's well being. Chitoge seems to take one step forward and then two steps backwards in regards to development. I begin to think she develops, then she does something insensitive like running off to America.
Your next point is about Eva. I don't care what genre it is. They are still characters that can be objectively compared. The genre has nothing to do with this. Whether violence is played for laughs or not, it can still be quite shocking unless it is presented correctly. Violence is violence. The reason for it is petty. I know this may sound cheesy, but think about how Raku feels. Asuka had an extremely traumatic childhood. She rushed to her mother to tell her the good news about her becoming an Eva pilot. Do you know what she found? Her mother had hung herself. If that doesn't fuck someone up, I have no idea what would. As I have stated before, she wants to be the very best and get all the attention. Shinji steals the spotlight from her, so she is frustrated. About her kissing Shinji, Asuka was annoyed that Kaiji didn't show any interest in her. She just wanted him to see her. To pay attention. She takes this sexual frustration out on Shinji. She wants to feel dominant and she just wants someone to acknowledge her presence. Shinji was the victim of it, but the reason for it happening is given. It is a plausible explanation. Complaining about Asuka being bi-polar while not objecting to Chitoge's actions is hypocritical. Asuka is mentally scarred. She has a plausible and logical explanation for her actions. Chitoge does not. That's the difference.
You then say manga aren't grounded in reality, which I can partly agree with and I can partly disagree with. It's not like it can't happen, there's no unwritten rule that characters can't get help. Let's leave that point though and focus on your next one on Marika.
You say she throws Marika. Yes, on one occasion. Never to happen again. As you know yourself, Marika's teasing is constant. So why only one occasion? And why not more severe? It's inconsistent. You then give some shaky reasons why Chitoge hits Raku. I can't believe you try to defend this aspect of her character, but whatever. You say it's because he is a pervert. What? You would hit someone just because they are sexually excited, but obviously won't do anything to you? Take your head out of the clouds here. Also, surprise surprise, Raku never goes out of his way to perv on the girls. Maybe once or twice, but always on Kosaki not Chitoge. Chitoge just overreacts like every cliché tsundere. Before you bring up that bullshit excuse that "it's common", I'll remind you that just because it's common doesn't mean it's acceptable.
He comments on things she's sensitive on? Dear God how does that mean violence is acceptable? Why not just act mature and get over it? Or at least try not to resort to violence? I have been over this many times, and it's disappointing that you can't just accept this as a flaw.
His stupidity frustrates her? Believe me, I have met many people with sub-par intelligence. Doesn't mean that I hit them. Even to the point where their questionable thought process annoys me. I won't even fully answer the next one, because it's basically point one. Raku has stated many times he doesn't feel anything special in regards to Marika.
The fact that you are attempting to justify her violence leads me to one thing. You're grasping at straws. Just think about it. You're trying to justify violence. Just accept that it's wrong and move on. This is ridiculous.
You say she has other traits. I've already stated how she isn't likable. Refer to them please.
Then, you state Chitoge is growing out of her violent tendencies. Like I said, it never should've happened in the first place without a plausible reason. A simple slap in the face every 150 chapters isn't too bad, but full on violence isn't.
Yes, I may be in the minority, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. This is a reoccurring theme in your essays. I'm a minority, therefore I'm wrong. This is mind boggling. I have a different opinion of a character based on logic and facts from the story. But I'm a minority, so that must mean I'm wrong, right? Do you know who else was a minority? Martin Luther(of 1483 of the reformation not MKJ). He realised that the church was corrupt. He was a minority, so does that mean he was wrong? Do you now realise how backwards that is?



I agree with pretty much everything the former says. Especially on the Chitoge case. She leaves a bad first impression. Not only that, but she continues to act strangely throughout the story.

As the latter has pointed out, you are hypocritical. You resort to petty insults and then contradict yourself a few lines later. You attempt to justify violence. You grasp at straws. I may be in the minority, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. You call me retarded for some reason. Your arguments are weak. You deny common sense. You deny the facts. Look at yourself. Look at the facts. Look at the truth. Try not to resort to petty insults. After all, maybe this special snowflake could be right about something for once.

elior1 said:
i will say this i like chitoge and love some of her character aspects but i agree with you wit all your points. it not a bad thing i still like her even if i agree with all you said right?

eogo said:

No, it's not necessarily a bad thing. If you can acknowledge Chitoge's flaws and agree that she's nothing special but still like her, that's perfectly fine. That's just personal preferance. The person I have been debating with, on the contrary to you, tries to make excuses for her flaws. They also don't use particularly strong arguments. It's a debate about characters and how they should and shouldn't be handled. It's not a case of "It's wrong for you to like her", it's more a case of "can you acknowledge that she is fundamentally flawed, or do you believe her flaws aren't present?". While I may make reference to how I cannot understand why someone would like her, I assure you that having personal preference is fine. Like whoever you want. The debate is all about how characters should and shouldn't be handled, in our separate opinions.

elior1 said:
i acknowledge chitoge flaws and agree that she not so special

now for about how character should and shouldn't handled. for me there was some times where they handled chitoge fine with her flaws but like you said there was lot of times where they didn't handled it not so good in other words in my opinion there was times they actually did fine with her flaws .

also i not one of those who ship pairs but in my opinion even if it generic i prefer chitoge to end with raku since she got lot of development even if they didnt handled the development not so good sometimes.

eogo said:

Like I said previously, Chitoge takes one step forward and then two steps backwards. In my opinion anyway. There are times where I can say she seems to be acting normally and whatnot, but for me the negatives heavily outweigh the positives in the way she was handled. If you think on the contrary, that's fine. If you give reasons as to why you do, I mightn't necessarily agree but that's just personal preferance. There are certain ways in which I think a character should be handled in certain situations, but someone else might have a completely different standard of how to judge if the character was handled well. If this standard is logical to a certain extent, then I will be able to appreciate their method of judging characters.

elior1 said:
i am logical so i will focus only on chitoge and not talk on the outher girls with her. i will say that for me the positive and negatives is balanced and the reason is because at some point of the story sorry if i dont remember where i felt there were many chapters i felt her positive overweight the negative in her personality.it hard for me to point on specific chapter since there is 224 chapters so far and it hard to
find. is my reason logical to some extend to you?

eogo said:

Yeah, it's understandable that you can't really remember. During the debate I had to go back and read a lot of chapters that I had forgtotten about. I can agree that at some points, like in chapter 198, Chitoge's behaviour is admirable. While I don't think there are many other moments in which I feel this way about her behaviour, I just think it's all down to personal preference. Most of it anyway. So yes, if it's just a matter of your overall view on Chitoge and an overall view of her character without really going into specifics, it is quite logical. The reason why I don't agree with Chiibi's arguments is because the debate has gone into specifics on making characters and they won't acknowledge her flaws, no matter how obvious they are. The debate isn't really a matter of personal preference, rather different views on why characters act the way they do. It is opinionated to a certain extent, but I try to keep my analysis as logical as possible and provide as much evidence from the manga as possible.

elior1 said:
about chitoge runing away to america few chapters ago from my point of view it runing from her problems instead of want to make them both happy. what about you?

elior1 said:

Just a reminder, the "grasping at straws" statement I made was in regards to your whole reply, not just your first point.
I have read the forum guidelines. There is nothing there about quoting entire essays. I have no idea what you're talking about. So I'll say it again. This is how I like to write. Get over it.

Your first point is that Chitoge makes sense to you. She makes sense to you?

So a person that hits another on a whim makes sense to you?

I have explained multiple times how inconsistent her violent tendencies are and why the reason for her doing so is petty.

She also doesn't make sense because the reason given for her inability to make friends is bullshit. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Chitoge's father is the head of the gang. That was established very early on in the manga. He has complete authority over Claude. These aspects combined tell us one thing. Hey, that doesn't make sense.

You then say a girl smacking a guy is natural in anime. Let me remind you that smacking isn't all she does. She kicks, punches, dropkicks and more.

Also, just because it's common, doesn't excuse its presence. Fanservice is very common in anime, yet it is constantly criticised by many fans.

By your logic, because fanservice is common, it is completely fine and doesn't ruin or effect a show. Once again, your logic is mind-boggling.

You say I'm putting words in your mouth.

However, as I have pointed out, Nisekoi has a normal setting. No magic, no monsters and no constant threat of danger hanging over each person in the world. Therefore, you would expect the characters to be mostly rational and relatable.

Calling me retarded isn't going to get you anywhere.

You still seem to think because Raku is dense, it's okay if Chitoge hits him.

What? You would hit someone purely because they slightly frustrate you?

No rational human being would hit someone because of their relatively harmless personality. People piss me off every day, but I don't throw down each time they do. Do you know why? I don't because I'm a rational human being. I try to avoid violence.

Nothing you have said has convinced me that she is nothing more than an abrasive girl who hits people.

In fact, the point that I make about the illusion crumbling isn't stupid at all.

Where I'm going with this is that I don't see Chitoge as a real human being. She doesn't act like one.

Her father doesn't need scenes of power. It has already been established. He's the leader. Now we know he has full authority over the whole gang. It doesn't really need to be emphasised.

Actually, Marika's childish nature has everything to do with her actions. Her father spoils her. Marika is full of herself. She is confident that Raku loves her, or will love her at some stage. She enjoys seeing other people fail to be as committed to Raku as she is because she's childish. It's bragging rights. Most spoiled children are childish and want everything they set eyes on. This explains her possessive nature as well.

So pointing out faults in a work that other people don't see is to be shunned. By your logic, critics are all "special snowflakes" that point out issues in a work that not many people are aware of. Destroy the critics! Everyone should feel the same way about a work of fiction!

It is established that Chitoge's father has authority over Claude.

Why wouldn't she tell her father to order him to stop?

Why does Chitoge hit no one on a regular basis except Raku?

This goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot.

Yes, Kosaki blushes and stutters around him. Yes, he would have to be quite dense. However, you can't deny that Raku doesn't think she would like a guy like him. This mindset isn't very admirable, but it certainly is possible.

There are many occasions where Raku realises that Kosaki doesn't see him as a normal friend. He is obviously aware that she is fond of him.

However, this is still plausible and at least there is a logical explanation as to why he is the way he is.

There is no logical explanation as to why Chitoge hits Raku so much for such a petty reason.

You say it's normal in anime that girls hit boys. I have already addressed this. Just because it's common, doesn't mean it's acceptable. For example, if in every 2 anime you watched the story was completely incomprehensible and didn't make sense, would you say: "It's common, so it's okay"? By your logic, you would think this way. Just because it is common, doesn't mean it is acceptable.

I have already explained why Marika is the way she is. It is a logical explanation.

It would be OK if the impressions you had about Chitoge made sense or swung my opinion on her. Every impression you have given I have shown how trivial it has been. If you want me to remind you how trivial they are, I would happily go in to more detail. I'm not being hypocritical, I am pointing out flaws in your analysis. You, on the contrary, attempt to insult me rather that take my analysis in to consideration. You didn't even attempt to point out flaws.

You suggest that people may be smarter because they know why Chitoge acts strangely. There are people who give logical explanations as to why Chitoge only hits one person on a regular basis for petty reasons? Where are they?

You certainly aren't giving any logical explanations other than the petty excuses that "it's common" and "he annoys her".

If you want me to educate you on Bebop, I would gladly do so.

About Spike hating animals. That's perfectly fine.

Hitting someone actively isn't very rational.

It's quite simple to see what I'm looking for. A valid character description like I did for Kosaki some time ago. What makes her who she is.

What she wants to do.

Why she acts he way she does.

You say Chitoge threw away her pride and loved Raku. You say she stopped being petty, which I disagree with. Hitting someone for no valid reason is petty.

She went to fucking America when she found out about Raku and Kosaki, even though she is aware that a lot of people care for her in Japan, which is petty.

Why didn't she just talk it out with Kosaki or if that was too much, wait until Raku made his decision? He wasn't going out with Kosaki. There is no reason to give up.

I thought she didn't care about others when it comes to her love for Raku?

If I was forced to do something that wasn't that bad for so long, I would eventually stop hating it. So Chitoge not hating the dates has pretty much nothing to do with her loving Raku.

So what about her caring if Raku has fun or whatever.

It is fair to say that Chitoge pre-Raku wasn't completely devoid of emotion and kindness.

Your next point is about Eva. I don't care what genre it is. They are still characters that can be objectively compared. The genre has nothing to do with this.

About her kissing Shinji, Asuka was annoyed that Kaiji didn't show any interest in her. She just wanted him to see her. To pay attention. She takes this sexual frustration out on Shinji. She wants to feel dominant and she just wants someone to acknowledge her presence. Shinji was the victim of it, but the reason for it happening is given. It is a plausible explanation. Complaining about Asuka being bi-polar while not objecting to Chitoge's actions is hypocritical. Asuka is mentally scarred. She has a plausible and logical explanation for her actions. Chitoge does not. That's the difference.

You say she throws Marika. Yes, on one occasion. Never to happen again. As you know yourself, Marika's teasing is constant. So why only one occasion? And why not more severe?

You then give some shaky reasons why Chitoge hits Raku.

I can't believe you try to defend this aspect of her character, but whatever.

You say it's because he is a pervert. What? You would hit someone just because they are sexually excited, but obviously won't do anything to you?

Take your head out of the clouds here.

He comments on things she's sensitive on? Dear God how does that mean violence is acceptable?

Why not just act mature and get over it? Or at least try not to resort to violence?

I have been over this many times, and it's disappointing that you can't just accept this as a flaw.

His stupidity frustrates her? Believe me, I have met many people with sub-par intelligence. Doesn't mean that I hit them.

You're trying to justify violence. Just accept that it's wrong and move on. This is ridiculous.

Leafina said:
You completely made this whole forum fall off-track because you were butthurt someone doesnt suck chitoges tits.

YuujinA12 said:
Kosaki Onodera until the end. woot woot

Chiibi said:


It's ANNOYING because EVERYONE responding has to SCROLL AND SCROLL AND SCROLL AND SCROLL.....would YOU like it if you had to read through something like 100 page essay because some idiot doesn't learn how to quote people correctly?


Yes.

Yes, because this isn't the first manga or anime I've watched. There's no "whim" about it. He makes her angry, she hits him. It's supposed to be oh....this thing called comedy. It's SLAPSTICK. You may not think it's funny, I don't always think it's funny, but it's intended to be funny. This isn't "character inconsistency", this is "Rule of Funny".


Maybe they are petty to you but not they are not petty to her. You just need to get inside a character's head to figure her out.


Just because he has complete authority over him doesn't mean Claude will always obey. People DO disobey their bosses you know? Like all the time.



It's the same thing. It's all slapstick.


It's criticized by being uneccessary and tasteless, which it can be. It doesn't have anything to do with "character inconsistency".


You need to STOP MISUNDERSTANDING ME and jumping to conclusions because it makes you look really foolish.


Accusing me of saying something I DIDN'T say IS putting words in my mouth, yes.


.....................are you NEW to the comedy genre or......?


It was merely a query. lol


I don't think it's "okay" but I understand why she would.
I think you are mixing up "okay" with "reason to". How can you possibly confuse those? Are you POSITIVE you are not mentally deficient somewhere?


Yes, I've whacked people on the arm and the face before. But because I don't have comically superhuman strength, it doesn't hurt them. Also, we are not cartoon characters.


I'm also going to assume it's because you aren't a cartoon character created to amuse another being. Just a hunch.


That is perfectly your right to remain stubborn as a mule. Biased hatred for a character normally doesn't change. You don't like her and you've convinced yourself that you never will like her.


Yes, it is. The series does a good job into making her into a person with feelings like a real human but oh no, she HITS one boy so NOPE, she's not a person anymore suddenly?
Lol wtf.



Yes, she does. Take the slapstick out and she certainly does.



It kinda does. Just because he's the leader, doesn't mean he KNOWS everything.



That STILL doesn't explain her sadistic nature. Or maybe you don't know what that means?


On the contrary, I LOVE watching videos of critics and I agree with most of them on many many things. The Nostalgic Critic is my favorite guy to watch online. Even though he makes fun of or doesn't like some of my favorite things, he just does a better job of explaining why, compared to you. And his reasons make SENSE. Take a hint.


It is established that people disobey authority all the time. That's why we have things called criminals.


Maybe she feels that she shouldn't bother him....or that he still wouldn't stop anyway?


He's the only one who makes her mad, like I told you.


HOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!?

HOW pray tell, does THAT go against the plot? That FOLLOWS the plot. The plot says "they don't get along at first". Hitting is people not getting along, for sure.




For TEN years, it is not possible. No human being could ever be that oblivious. However, I will accept that Raku IS that dense because I don't demand my characters to act like real human people I know personally 100% of their screentime, UNLIKE a certain someone else.


He's 100% clueless.


Status Quo.


Because short-tempered girl hitting dense boy=FUNNY in Otaku World. Again., I personally don't find it THAT funny but because a large number of people in Japan find it funny, authors will use it endlessly.



You CAN'T see into my head or how I think so quit making such sad attempts.


Actually, it's assumption.



Your entire way of expressing yourself is flawed. It's like you're confused and you're typing one thing but you actually mean something else. It's really hard to take you seriously. You call everything you don't agree with "illogical". Well, sir, that way of thinking is illogical. lol


I'm not hunting them down for you. lol Lazy.


So....just because something is "petty", in your opinion, that makes it "illogical"?



PFTTTTT. Educate me? You certainly are full of yourself, aren't you? No thanks. I don't want to take another nap today, I'm good.


It's not fine. I disliked him the second he said that.



If you haven't noticed, lots of anime girls are not what you'd call rational. It would be less "funny" that way.


Kosaki is a shy girl who is terrible at everything and shy because "it's moe" *gag*


She wants to be Raku's wife. She has no other goal in life. That's why people hate her.


I think it's because she's mentally deficient. Because that's also "moe". Also fanservice. She may as well be named "Miss Fanservice" because that's all her (lol) "character" revolves around.



"Anger" is a valid reason for hitting. Is it a "right" reason? No. Is it a mature, rational thing to do? No. Do I understand why she does it? Yes.


She's scared of getting hurt. HISTORY IS REPEATING ITSELF. Hello?


Because she thought it was a hopeless cause. Also, Chitoge doesn't have a poker face. She couldn't face either one and pretend she was ok and nothing happened. That is part of her personality (that you claim she doesn't have)


Why the hell would you think that at all? You clearly don't understand her character. Being selfless like that is one of her likable traits.



If I was forced to date someone I hated, I'd hate the dates as well. So you are wrong.


So WHAT?

More evidence that you don't know how love works.

Love is putting others' needs before your own needs

On that date, Chitoge did everything Raku liked, even though she didn't enjoy it. She made it ALL about him. That shows her maturity and growth.


I never said she was?



*blows a bullshit horn*




It doesn't make sense to me because if I hate someone, I won't kiss him. I think she's very weird.



The opportunities don't really present themselves.


There was nothing "shaky" about them. Does constantly degrading my posts make the little boy feel better about himself?


Who said anything about defense? I'm explaining to you that there were reasons. They are not great reasons but they are different from "no reason at all" like your false claim.



Sexually excited? What are you talking about? She hit him because he knocked down the wall and saw EVERYONE buck-naked. It was an accident, yes but she didn't want him to see her naked. So she launched him away to correct that problem.

Would I hit someone who was spying on my naked body will I was taking a bath?

Likely. Not that it would accomplish the same thing.


Take your head out of your ass, here.


Who said it was acceptable?


Because people don't find that "funny".



It's disappointing that you are either too dumb or don't understand English well enough to recognize that I DO accept this as a flaw. I said "I like her in SPITE of this flaw"


Does the little boy want a cookie for that?


I do accept that it's wrong but it's not enough to make me HATE her or call her a bad character.




EW please keep your sick fantasies to yourself, you pervert.

eogo said:

I'm just going to ignore the whole quoting thing because it's not against the guidelines and it has no relevance to the argument.

Chitoge fails to be a funny character like Shuu.

If it fails at doing so, then it's a flaw.

You then say just because Chitoge's father is the leader, "doesn't mean he knows everything".

What are you talking about? I'm genuinely confused.

Knowledge had nothing to do with this. I was simply implying that he was established as the leader early on. He is not a main character, so it's not like we need to see his daily life or scenes of his power. We already know he is a gang leader. Like I said, it hardly needs to be emphasised.

You then say fanservice can be tasteless. Slapstick that doesn't work is tastless.

On many occasions, such as the aforementioned chapter 42, even though Marika annoys Chitoge by acting suggestive, Chitoge hits Raku.

This is kind of inconsistent if you think that she's genuinely angry a lot of the time or if she has some sort of mental issue.

Many opportunities present themselves for Chitoge to hit Marika, but usually Raku is the victim.

I know what you're probably gonna say. "She's starting to hit Marika now". Why hasn't she been doing it since her appearance or at least when she began aggravating Chitoge?

You then ask me am I new to the comedy genre. Quite the opposite actually. I watch a lot of comedy movies and tv shows. I've watched a considerable amount of anime/manga comedies too. The point I was trying to make about the setting thing was that I would at least expect them to act rationally.

You make reference to "cartoon characters" quite a bit. I could argue by going into character details, but we're talking comedy here. Yet again, refer to my first point. The slapstick fails to even be fresh.

You have already said that if you take away the slapstick, she is a good character. But here's the problem with that. That aspect of Chitoge is quite a big part of her.

She wants to cheer Raku up. One step forward. She runs off to America(more on this later). Two steps back.

She decides that she loves Raku. One step forward. Yet another stale joke that isn't funny and aggravates the reader.

You haven't given me a good description of her

I'm able to talk about Kosaki's character quite a bit and most of what I talk about are what make her appeal to so many.

You just dismiss her as "moe shit" without even taking a second glance.

Her character is hard to relate to. Hard to empathise with.

She is inherently unlikable at the beginning.

I keep asking you to give me a proper description of Chitoge, and unsurprisingly you seem to just avoid the topic completely.

A big part of her character revolves around the fact that she is overly defensive and is violent towards Raku.Take that aspect of her character away and what do you have left?

My points do make sense.

I have disproven each the above using common sense and facts given to us by the manga.

In the case of comedy, I have proven how it isn't funny in any way, shape or form.

You haven't proven any of my points regarding Chitoge wrong

You then say Raku is the only one who makes Chitoge mad. You know yourself that Marika has infuriated Chitoge many times, but she very rarely resorts to violence when Marika annoys her, she just shouts at her.

I expect characters to act normal because we can then relate to them.

You think my point on Marika is just an assumption. Actually, it isn't. An assumption is supposing something with no proof. I have proven why Marika is spoiled. Her father is over-protective as seen when Raku meets him and he is also stinking rich. She's even introduced with a squad of police members because her father obviously let her take them. It's fair to say she's quite spoiled. So it isn't an assumption. I have used proof that she is spoiled.

You then say my way of expressing my thoughts is illogical and flawed.What?

Tell me how calling me retarded and mentally deficient is an argument.

I say it's petty because no real person would act this way.

You then say Kosaki is just "moe" and is shy for no reason. Unlike you, I can actually give reasons as to why she is this way. I have done so many times and you still haven't proven any of them wrong.

Yes, anger is a reason for doing it, but like you said it's not admirable at all. Who can relate to that aspect of her character?

You then say she's scared of getting hurt, so she runs away. Maybe it was excusable 10 years ago, but not really now. She's like 17.

You then say Chitoge doesn't have a "poker face". What? How very amusing. Your initial description of Chitoge relied on the fact that she has a tough exterior. If she doesn't have a poker face, doesn't that mean she doesn't really have a tough exterior?

Even if she doesn't have a poker face, why run all the way to America?

Couldn't she just stay out of school and stay at home until she felt better and thought it though.

Then you blow a "bullshit horn". Yet again, instead of actually using points with valid proof or trying to disprove my point, you just say that it's bullshit with no reason as to why it is.

You finish by saying that what he said is a sick fantasy. It's actually just an expression. It's not a fantasy.

You act like a pretentious prick by calling me a "little boy". Talking down to someone doesn't win an argument.

Chiibi said:

But it's a pain in the ass. You've also never seemed to have heard of "white space" because you don't leave any or put your replies in easier-to-read format.
Like I do.

*reads blah blah origin of slapstick blah blah*

What I'm reading here is "I don't like Chitoge's slapstick so to me, she remains as a character who makes no sense to me and I don't like her cause I don't think she's funny"

Lol poor argument.

You've even lost track of what my POINT was. This wasn't about you not liking her. I know you don't like her. This was about her actions being illogical. You not liking the slapstick personally doesn't void the reason why the slapstick exists.


She's a very funny character in other ways. Like how her dere is constantly fighting with her tsun. She's always calling herself an idiot for saying the opposite of what she means. Her expressions while doing so are also very funny. The episode where she tries to get Raku to notice her in particular is very funny.

But that is your useless opinion. Why do you keep acting like your opinion is RIGHT?




Shocking.


..................you

I just.......

wow

Try to think with your brain about this statement:

IF Chitoge doesn't tell her father what Claude does in the first place

How the f*ck would he know what Claude does, therefore order him to STOP doing that?

My impression is that Claude is running Chitoge's social life BEHIND her father's back because he's so convinced that HE knows what's good for her, better than her own father, in fact.


Not as tasteless as fanservice.


I don't remember her doing that much.


I don't think she's angry a lot of the time.


Not really?


When Marika first appeared, Chitoge was still in denial about liking Raku. Once she fell in love with him, she began to hit him less and less.




But in comedy, characters DON'T act rationally. Acting irrationally makes them funnier!


It doesn't HAVE to be fresh for it to be there!



It is a very SMALL part. If you want to see what I'm talking about with her humanized character, read (or rewatch) the arc with her mother again. That arc really shows you her personality.



That isn't stepping back to me at all. I can relate to how she is feeling. She basically took in a big shock and needed to get away from the sources of that shock so it can sink in. It's like when people need to go on vacation because they've been stressing out over work too much. She needed ALONE time. She didn't know HOW to face Raku and Onodera after learning such a huge secret.


What stale joke is that?


Yes, I have. Is it my fault you don't like it?


I can do the same thing with Chitoge.


THAT IS WHAT SHE IS. Moe shit. A second glance? THERE'S NOTHING ELSE TO LOOK AT. Everyone who hates her agrees.


It is not hard to empathise with Chitoge in the least bit. But I'm sure girl fans find it much easier to than boy fans. Which is why Chitoge has lots of female fans.


I liked her from the beginning. She pretended she didn't care about Raku's feels or his locket yet she spent ALL that time secretly looking for it and she found it for him in the end. Aw, sweet. :)


I ALREADY DID!!! I hate repeating myself.


A sweet girl who is afraid of her own feelings and will do anything for the one she loves?



Haha!!!

No, they are crap, really. You love to babble on and on about nothing, I'll give you that.


You haven't "disproven" shit. And you sure as hell aren't using "common sense".


You can't prove an opinion on comedy.


I have. One being Chitoge's development.
Which you convienently ignored.


Evidently Raku upsets Chitoge more than Marika does because Chitoge has deeper feelings for Raku than Marika. Makes sense to me.

Think of it this way, back when Marika and Chitoge were enemies:

Your enemy says to you "I hate you; you suck. I'd never date you".

You're already enemies so you might get annoyed but you'd handwave it because you don't care, right?

Now replace that "enemy" with someone you CARE about; i.e. your crush.

..............hurts WAY more, doesn't it?

Why?

Because you CARE about that beloved person. You don't want them to say those things. You want them to like you BACK.

Chitoge has feelings like all normal girls have. Which means she's just as vulnerable when those feelings get hurt. But because she's defensive about her pride, she doesn't want ANYONE to see how easily you can hurt her. So she becomes physically hostile and turns her hurt into anger and overreacts like that.


Chitoge IS normal once you remove the super-strength aspect from her. Normal girls want to spend time with their parents if they miss them being around. Normal girls want to have close friendships with other girls. Normal girls want their parents to approve of their performance. Normal girls want their crush to notice them, say nice things, and like them back. Normal girls want the important people around them to be happy.

Chitoge wanted/wants ALL of those things. I don't know how someone CAN'T relate to her; that is what every person (doesn't even have to be a girl would like)



We were not talking about "spoiled", we were talking about SADISM. They are not synoyms. Spoiled does not make you sadistic. My friend is spoiled and she is not a sadist but a masochist. The two terms are not related in the least bit. You derp.



Yeah.........you talk kind of weird.


Lol I didn't call you it. I asked if you were. It was a question, not accusation.


If you're saying "no real person would hit people out of anger" lol, you are wrong. Little kids hit other kids ALL the time. Girls DO hit their boyfriends. It's just that the boys won't report it because they have too much pride. And it's not like most girls have Chitoge's (comical) range of strength enough to hurt the boys anyway.





No person is that shy. You can be shy around your crush but DEAR GOD, she is ridiculous.




You aren't supposed to be able to relate to THAT particular aspect. It's the other stuff. The serious stuff, when she calms down and reveals what is inside of her heart.



Age doesn't have anything to do with that.




Chitoge doesn't have a poker face when something really bothers her. She is able to put on a tough front at times. But this particular love triangle problem is way too much for her. It's also because she is far more vulnerable NOW than what she was at the beginning.


Because she thought she could have peace and quiet where those two wouldn't follow her, of course.


Of course not, they would go visit her there.
Use your brain. Geeze.




*sighs*

If I were to go into all of THAT, the topic would derail and it would not be about Nisekoi anymore.



Well DUR.
Sick expression. I can't stand when people say super gross things like that. I don't have any tolerance for it. So I threw it back in his face.


Calling me a "pretentious prick" makes YOU just as guilty of this. lol It wasn't about winning an argument. It was about pissing you off, since you pissed me off. Apparently it worked, since you called me a pretentious prick.

eogo said:



Unlike my other replies, I'm going to keep this short and sweet. I'm going away with no internet for a month or two

There's probably some 12 year old kid in Japan that thinks some of the scenes are funny.

I can accept that shows like the Big Bang Theory are a dry well of comedy and the jokes are terrible, but it still makes me laugh very rarely. I still hate the show though lol.

You obviously hate deredere characters. I don't agree with why you do

As long as you can acknowledge that Chitoge is pretty flawed as a character, I guess I'm happy.

Hell, you even said yourself that Chitoge isn't a great tsundere.

Chiibi said:

Claude is a total dick....if you haven't noticed. I don't think he would stop even if he was told. Also, Chitoge's social skills aren't very good in the beginning either.


Not everything has to be spelled out for you, like you're incapable of thought. Most tsundere have a hard time making friends. They tend to be outcasts or isolate themselves. Maybe they have ONE good friend. Taiga had Minori and Chitoge has Tsugumi.


No, I think it's quite true.


She hits Raku when he pisses her off.


I think she has hit Shuu before but there's really no need because Ruri beats the living shit outta him first.


I don't really like it WHEN she hits him. I like her character in spite of being that way. And she did stop hitting him eventually.



Ummmm

Do you pay attention AT ALL when Raku talks to her through most of the series? He calls her "gorilla", he comments about her weight and other things girls worry about, he says really insensitive things that would piss any girl off.


She and Marika used to hate each other but now they are friends. She was never as good as friends with Onodera as she is now. She got to be super-close with her mother. She got closer to EVERYONE....except maybe Tsugumi who has always been like her sister anyway.


Again, I don't need things spelled out for me. I know exactly why she acts that way. Raku is a very frustrating person. Hell, I LIKE Raku (and I'm one of the few people who does) but even I want to punch him sometimes....



The only thing you've confirmed is that you don't understand things unless they are spoon-fed to you. Poor you.


Do you even read this manga? Are we talking about the same series?


BECAUSE HE MAKES HER MAD.

Good Lord.....it isn't rocket science, man.


It does make sense.
Would you want to hang around a member of a family in a gang? Does that sound the least bit scary to you? If it was me, I'd be a little bit intimidated.


Work what out?


No.


She's one of the better ones I've seen. I don't like ones that NEVER change. But she changed.



..........wat......

............"not badly wr...." "KOSAKI!?"

"KOSAKI ONODERA ISN'T BADLY WRITTEN"?!!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

THERE'S NO WRITING TO HER AT ALL!!! SHE IS THE MOST ONE-DIMENSIONAL THING I'VE EVER SEEN.

Thanks for that. I had a rough day. Needed to LOL.


You think wrong.

Do you understand how character writing works?

At all?


The author said:"I'm going to create an otaku fetish", he didn't say:"I'm going to create a character".

[insert Kosaki]

Kosaki isn't a character.She's "fanservice". She is the most uncharacter of characters. I have seen 11-minute cartoons with more developed characters than her. In fact, a ROCK has more character than Kosaki does.

At the beginning of the manga, she is a shy doormat who likes Raku.

224 chapters later?

SHE'S STILL THE F*CKING SAME AS EVER.

That's why people hate her.

Yes, Chitoge fits into the tsundere stereotype....but it's not like just ANY tsundere could replace her. There's more than one way to write a tsundere. Chitoge isn't anything like Taiga or Shana or Stella. (well ok, maybe Stella a little but Chitoge was written first) The closest character I can think of her resembling would probably be Akane from Ranma 1/2 (whom I ironically hate but that's because I don't like anything about her) But she's even different from Akane as in she's much more attractive, classy, and girly and doesn't claim to "hate men" like Akane does.

There's Tsugumi, Ruri, Paula, and Haru who are all tsundere too. Can you say Chitoge acts EXACTLY like them? She doesn't.

Extezia said:
Kosaki didn't do anything bad to Raku (I have never seen one)

You would say that Chitoge spend a lot of time with Raku than Kosaki did, Raku knew Kosaki since middle school and love each other, but yeah they didn't know it

mizukasa said:
Harem ending. I'm calling it.