| I just finished to watch it but I still don't understand 1 thing: |
| It's been a while since I've seen the series and it's all a bit vague, but here's what I think anyway. |
 |
| m.... I even rated this 7...with this kind of plot hole,I'm switching my vote to 6 :/ |
MarcusAsethAug 21, 2014 9:47 AM
| No, it was explained in the anime and I definitely don't think it's just a plot twist as you described. This kind of thing was planned from the beginning, which makes it a really well-written show in my eyes. I suggest rewatching the series, you probably missed a couple of subtleties that may help you understand the story. I feel like you're rating this show badly because you didn't understand everything by watching it just once (off topic, but that's something I did with Baccano. I could appreciate it so much more after watching it a second time). I'm planning on doing that anyway. |
nedratjeAug 21, 2014 10:13 AM
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| Its all extremely contrived . One episode they handle time travel with the idea that there is a parallel universe which can be changed ,the other time (this case in particular) nope its all the same universe and you cant change anything no matter what. So yeah you have to suspend your disbelief and just go with whats presented. |
amateur said: One episode they handle time travel with the idea that there is a parallel universe which can be changed I don't remember that. Which episode would that be? The one where they bring Hakaze back? They didn't change anything at that time. It had already happened. |
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nedratje said: amateur said: One episode they handle time travel with the idea that there is a parallel universe which can be changed I don't remember that. Which episode would that be? The one where they bring Hakaze back? They didn't change anything at that time. It had already happened. Yes,Hakaze being dead when the 2 main characters confront Samon implies that she is currently is in a parallel universe where she doesn't end up with the same faith because she travels to the future. But that doesn't change the fact that she did die once. |
| I didn't interpret it that way. Imo, Hakaze was never dead. Samon just thought she was, since he retrieved her bones from the island. But her bones were there, only because she had already left them behind to go to the future. So I don't think there was ever a parallel universe. |
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| She still had to actually die once for that to happen though. That's the thing with most time travel stories,when you go down to the very basics you notice how the premise of the plot couldn't have happened as is later described in the story. |
amateur said: She still had to actually die once for that to happen though. Could you explain why? As I see it, she moved her flesh etc. through time, just leaving behind her bones. I don't see her dying anywhere in the process. |
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| Her "present" self died on that island leading Samon to retrieve her remaining bones without a shadow of a doubt that they were real ones and having proof that she died,that much is certain. Her past self ,the one they 2 main characters communicate with, which didn't share the same faith traveled trough time and replaced the skeleton that remained on the island. Assuming the process repeats itself once more ,she still had to die in the first place for it to happen again. |
amateur said: Her "present" self died on that island leading Samon to retrieve her remaining bones without a shadow of a doubt that they were real ones and having proof that she died,that much is certain. Not to me though. I think you see you different versions of Hakaze, whereas I only see one. The one who communicated with the MCs was also the one who left her bones behind for Samon to find. If she died, she couldn't have travelled through time indeed and that would be a plothole, as it would require a parallel universe, but I don't see how she ever had to die. Argh, I feel like this isn't going anywhere. |
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nedratje said: I suggest rewatching the series, you probably missed a couple of subtleties that may help you understand the story... Man...your logic here is sooooo broken,that you telling me to watch it again is silly and almost insulting! xD I mean,follow me in this: |
MarcusAsethAug 21, 2014 2:42 PM
MarcusAseth said: Man...your logic here is sooooo broken,that you telling me to watch it again is silly and almost insulting! xD Well it definitely wasn't my intention to insult you, so I'm sorry for that. I never knew rewatching something was silly, as it has helped me several times to understand series better. My logic isn't broken though (I may, hoever, be bad at getting my point across). The thing with time travel is: you can have an effect on what happens in the past. So yes, the cause can be from the future. If Aika were alive, Mahiro would have no reason to help Hakaze, and she'd still be stuck on the island. The entire story as it was told, would have never taken place. MarcusAseth said: but Hakaze WOULD NOT HAVE a reason to go back in the first place if she going back is the one that cause the death!!! But she never knew beforehand that she would be the cause. She actually thought she could prevent Aika's death by going back in time. MarcusAseth said: this chain of events COULD NEVER START in the first place because the cause (Hakaze going back) would have no reason to happen,since Aika IS NOT GOING TO KILL HERSELF FIRST...can you see where the problem is? xD Now here your logic is flawed, if you believe that something from the future can cause an effect in the past, which you don't, but I do. Aika only killed herself because the future Hakaze travelled back. |
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| Again,you are failing really bad on getting the logic of things straight man xD Of course future action can change past,the problem is that...that future CANNOT exist first if for it's existence it is actually required an action that come from the future itself,how you can't you get this?! x_x Is like if that future is genereting itself out of nothing. I'll make you another example to help you understand this,but please,follow this carefully. Let's say that every timeline has a beggining,and it keep going forward like a line,from left to right,ok? Imagine our timeline now,ok? Let's say that my timeline and your timeline is the VERY first time it is beign "written" by our actions,so we actually don't have a future yet,because if we had a future it would mean that every action is already decided and we don't have free will. Anyway,imagine that our real timeline stops to today, 22/08/2014,there is nothing beyond that for now,because we are building it in real time with our action. NOW,you imagine YOU are Aika, and I am Hakaze.YOU ARE NOT thinking of suicide yet,because as you mention is Hakaze speach that put those ideas in Aika's head. I (as Hakaze) CANNOT come from the future to tell you how thigs are in there,and this because the first time we walk this timeline, the time stops to 22/08/2014,so there is no future yet!! So the day "you are meant to suicide",you actually would not suicide. This means that the timeline in the anime HAS NO WAY TO EXIST,unless Aika decide to suicide for SOME OTHER REASON,wich has to be DIFFERENT from the one that is a RESOULT of her death itself (therefore,said future). How can a chain of even like the one described in the anime could start then?! As I told you, the future cannot be the reason for how it itself actually is,otherwise the future is building itself alone,detached from everything else. So Hakaze from the future CANNOT be the reason of the future beign in the way it is. The writer created an infinite loop wrong in it's core,is like "Aika die because Hakaze go back because Aika die because Hakaze go back because Aika die because Hakaze go back because Aika die because Hakaze go back...ecc" see? This 2 things are pointing to each other, is like if you start to think if is born before the egg or the chicken, the problem that is that the "chain" described in the anime is a close loop,wich is ok if you think only to it,but falls apart when you think "then how it started?!" Aika could not suicide without that future in place,but that future would have not be in place if Aika don't suicide,therefore since Aika event in the timeline happens before the future is even generated,there is NO REASON for Aika suicide at all,is simply cannot happen that way. Man,if you still fail to get this basic logic after this explanation,I'm giving up on explaining it to you... If someone cannot get this kind of logic,then it only means is too complex and beyond a certain IQ (no offense if you didn't get it,is just a fact.) |
MarcusAsethAug 22, 2014 1:18 AM
MarcusAseth said: Of course future action can change past,the problem is that...that future CANNOT exist first if for it's existence it is actually required an action that come from the future itself,how you can't you get this?! x_x Is like if that future is genereting itself out of nothing. MarcusAseth said: I (as Hakaze) CANNOT come from the future to tell you how thigs are in there,and this because the first time we walk this timeline, the time stops to 22/08/2014,so there is no future yet!!^ You're contradicting yourself here. You say the future cannot exist first, but it can have an effect on the past. How can it have an effect on the past if it doesn't happen until later in your timeline? MarcusAseth said: Let's say that every timeline has a beggining,and it keep going forward like a line,from left to right,ok? Imagine our timeline now,ok? Let's say that my timeline and your timeline is the VERY first time it is beign "written" by our actions,so we actually don't have a future yet,because if we had a future it would mean that every action is already decided and we don't have free will. That's an assumption you make. Who ever said time is one straight line? MarcusAseth said: The writer created an infinite loop wrong in it's core,is like "Aika die because Hakaze go back because Aika die because Hakaze go back because Aika die because Hakaze go back because Aika die because Hakaze go back...ecc" see? This 2 things are pointing to each other, is like if you start to think if is born before the egg or the chicken, the problem that is that the "chain" described in the anime is a close loop,wich is ok if you think only to it,but falls apart when you think "then how it started?!" Aika could not suicide without that future in place,but that future would have not be in place if Aika don't suicide,therefore since Aika event in the timeline happens before the future is even generated,there is NO REASON for Aika suicide at all,is simply cannot happen that way. Now this is called time travel. Suspend your disbelief. Any show with time travel will have this kind of loop. Something in the past happened only because someone from the future went there and did something, which means there is a future that exists already. That is exactly what happened in this show as well. MarcusAseth said: If someone cannot get this kind of logic,then it only means is too complex and beyond a certain IQ (no offense if you didn't get it,is just a fact.) I honestly get what you're trying to say, I just don't agree with you. But now you're insulting me. Please don't inult my IQ because I don't agree with you, since I could say the exact same thing of you. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. |
nedratjeAug 22, 2014 7:45 AM
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You're contradicting yourself here. You say the future cannot exist first, but it can have an effect on the past. How can it have an effect on the past if it doesn't happen until later in your timeline? I am not contradicting myself at all,is just that you are not understanding it properly at all... Future can have an effect on the past as I said of course,problem is that the resoult of that effect would switch you into a different future than the one you came from,meaning it would generate another timeline or rewrite the current one,either way would be different. In this anime,is set up to make Hakaze returning back in the future she came from,by the assumption that that specific future is created from the future itself (Hakaze from the future actions). It is a future that is genereting itself,thus is a future imposed by the writer,and against logic,as I told you 3 times or more already. Therefore the writer is ignoring how Aika death could have started in the first place,meaning when a "true" future was not been created yet... (and you did not answered yet to that point,are you ignoring it the hole or what?) Any more doubts? That's an assumption you make. Who ever said time is one straight line? That's actually the first true thing you said. all the timeline could indeed have be generated all in the same time,but in this other way it would be that noone in that anime had "free will" so to say (they actually don't have it already because a guy is writing that story,but that's a different point),the tree of genesis was bound to be destroyed since the beggining,and every effort the character made was meaningless,even the suicide was meaningless yet bound to happen,just because the timeline was casually generated in that way. This point back to the fact that the writed WANTED that resoult, so the tree defeated and Aika suicide,therefore in this way you could justify any shit you want to happens just because you want to,and therefore is a really cheap and easy way to handle timetravel, bringing me to rating this anime with a 5. Now this is called time travel. Suspend your disbelief. Any show with time travel will have this kind of loop. Something in the past happened only because someone from the future went there and did something, which means there is a future that exists already. That is exactly what happened in this show as well. Every show that create that kind of loop either is not telling you the point where the loop begun,when it was not a loop but the first "true" timeline or it is telling you that all the timeline is static and bound to repeat,wich is a cheap way to handle the timetravel. Please don't inult my IQ because I don't agree with you, since I could say the exact same thing of you. the difference is that I'm backing up my claim with logic,you are not even trying to do that...you are just saying "is like this because the anime said that this happen" but you are not critically thinking outside of it in any of the reply that you wrote... is like "I believe in god because they told me there is a god" and then you don't do the extra effort to prove it,not even with a logic reasoning...so if I said that if you want to take that as an insult you are free to do so,but it is you the one who write stuff without backing it up in any way other than stating the fact of what happened in the anime and not going beyond it. |
MarcusAsethAug 22, 2014 8:14 AM
Takuan_Soho said: If time travel is possible then time is not linear. The choice here are 2. 1)All the time is written as a whole. In this case,the paradox of the future creating itself can happen,because the future was decided at the same time of the past,there is no future or past actually,there is just the whole timeline created with that particular shape and loop,but everything consistent with itself. Careful because this would mean the also the end is already decided as is decided what is the path that bring to the end,everything is decided and there is no freewill,everyone is like a train on a railroad. 2)Time flow from left to right,but you can jump in the past. Think of it as a youtube video wich is doing the buffering,you can jump back on the track that has already loaded and listen to it again,but still what has not loaded is not there (the future) Also when you jump back and change things,of course you end up in another track. Now.Wich one do you pick for explain me the logic in this anime? If you pick the 1,you are telling me that everything was bound to happen because the writer decided so from the beggining...so to say,there is not even a (fake because is an anime) concept of free will. It just had to happen like that,end of story. This remove any kind of meaning in the action of the characters,they are just trains moving on a railroad without chance to actually change the outcome of the story. If you pick 2,you have to explain me WHY AIKA KILL HERSELF when the timeline "is buffering",in the first and original timeline,no the ones generated by other hypothetical jumps(since is described as a loop so it could have repeated 1000 times already),therefore there is no future set and there is no Hakaze from the future,because if there was it would mean that it was not the first time Aika killed herself but this timeline was generated from another hakaze going back. So tell me how does it happened THE FIRST TIME. Answer is "it couldn't happen",therefore there was no mean to generate a future in wich Hakaze had to go back. Wich one do you choose? Or you want to present another possibility? |
MarcusAsethAug 22, 2014 9:22 AM
| Sorry for the double post (edit: another post was insert before this,lol),but I want to try to "attack" the subject from another perspective. Why Aika decide that the BEST OPTION is to kill herself? She only knew that in the future created from her suicide the 2 person important for her where alive,but nothing more. The tree was not defeated. They could still end up dead. Wouldn't have be the proper logical way to have Hakaze telling her everything then joining force with her to defeat the tree while protecting IN FIRST PERSON Mahiro and Yoshino? Of course,to that one can argue that "Hakaze wouldn't know that the tree of genesis was bad so she probably wouldn't have fighted it alongside Aika,but then both of them could have devised another way,for example Hakaze could have made a video and gave it to Aika,then Aika would have saved Hakaze from the island and show her the video of the other Hakaze explaining to she why she have to side with Aika and take the Tree of Genesis down. But no,in the episode Aika accept the her death like if "all makes sense",and this point clearly to the fact that the writer wanted the suicide in place,maybe to "shock" the viewer or add drama,or simply stop the quest for vengeance of Mahiro in a simple way... The whole thing is handled so simplistically that at this point doesn't even make sense to unfold the paradox created by that timetravel,because the writer fucked up in the way he attempted to make look the suicide as necessary and obvious,like if it was obviously the right thing to do. Can you guys agree on this? |
MarcusAsethAug 22, 2014 10:14 AM
| [quote=Takuan_Soho] MarcusAseth said: In Hakaze's time Aika had to kill herself because she already did. For me the question stays always the same: why she already did it?You may say "because Hakaze told here about the future" but that's again was possible because Aika killed herself first,and we can keep doing this and going back as many time as you want,but everything has to have a beggining,therefore there must be a point when you go back and can't answer the question "why Aika should kill herself" because it is the true beggining. Otherwise it means that in this story the flow of time is fixed,there was never even a "fake" free will and the writer could put on it all the things conveninent to his story,wich is a cheap way of writing imo |
Even if you want to adhere to linear time it is quite clear that she met Hakaze first... and this is where you are wrong,a paradox is created indeed if you think it as linear time. Already explained that to you with the buffering example,Hakaze from the future could not come back since that future doesn't exists yet. The whole point of this linear time is that a future doesn't generate itself but is the resoult of the past,and if that particular condition in the past is indeed created by a specific future when we are talking of it time in linear term (therefore buffering,remember),then you are indeed putting a paradox. I asked you a simple thing wich is how do you generete the future where Hakaze has to go back without having ANOTHER Hakaze that is actually went back to came to that resoult. You can't answer that,because this is a paradox,a loop without a beggining. The point that it has no beggining is a hole in my opinion. Every time loop should have a trigger,if doesn't have this trigger either the time is generated as a whole (no free will) or the writer did a sloppy job. |
MarcusAsethAug 22, 2014 12:56 PM
| So how do you trigger it? Let's say the first time Aika suicide herself out of "depression",without any external force,then we are set for that future portrait into the anime. Indeed there will come a point when Hakaze go back,talk to Aika and accidentally starts the infinite loop,but as you see the "FIRST SUICIDE", the triggering of the event for the possibility of a loop, is the only way you can put this inside linear time in a logical way. Therefore,the thing noone here still answered to me is about this "first event",the trigger. You guys keep pointing the suicide back to a future that in linear term is "in buffering" so don't exist at all,so can't trigger shit! xD You keep to refer to an ongoing loop,like egg and chicken,but I am asking about the FIRST SUICIDE. (and this if we are considering this as linear time. The other way,would be all pre-determined.) |
MarcusAsethAug 22, 2014 1:06 PM
First you are demanding that time is linear, but the show never said that time was linear Am I demanding it? Or it was a response to your "Even if you want to adhere to linear time it is quite clear that she met Hakaze first..." ? Until now I argumented 2 possibility, linear and time as a whole. If I'm demanding something,is to the anime to tell me wich one is using (through people who may have seen it better). If this is not possible to be determined,then I have to assume that the writer didn't set the clear rules for timetravel in his universe,so it did a sloppy job. |
| did a quick search and it seems that someone here http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=644263 argued my same thing already,so I have to check if they come to a different resoult :) |
| sorry for the double post,the guy in the other topic had this brilliant idea: Ok, well lets just overlook that problem and say can't risk another time paradox. We still have at least one more way to save Aika. Time travel her to her future bones the same way hakaze does it. Lets say thats for some reason impossible. They could still use magic to fake Aika's death (for instance tearing off and regenerating parts of her body till you have an entire spare corpse) and then just have Aika hide somewhere else in the world till after hakaze's second time travel and then come out and be all "miss me?". Happy ending. In the light of this,Aika death seems even more moronic... xD |
MarcusAseth said: Future can have an effect on the past as I said of course,problem is that the resoult of that effect would switch you into a different future than the one you came from,meaning it would generate another timeline or rewrite the current one,either way would be different. No, that’s your view of time travel. You do know that time travel is not real, and so people can have different theories about it, right? MarcusAseth said: Therefore the writer is ignoring how Aika death could have started in the first place,meaning when a "true" future was not been created yet... (and you did not answered yet to that point,are you ignoring it the hole or what?) I already answered you. It’s a loop, and it’s not a plothole. Aika died because she met Hakaze. You’re thinking linearly again. MarcusAseth said: That's actually the first true thing you said. all the timeline could indeed have be generated all in the same time,but in this other way it would be that noone in that anime had "free will" so to say (they actually don't have it already because a guy is writing that story,but that's a different point),the tree of genesis was bound to be destroyed since the beggining,and every effort the character made was meaningless,even the suicide was meaningless yet bound to happen,just because the timeline was casually generated in that way. This point back to the fact that the writed WANTED that resoult, so the tree defeated and Aika suicide,therefore in this way you could justify any shit you want to happens just because you want to,and therefore is a really cheap and easy way to handle timetravel, bringing me to rating this anime with a 5. Honestly, I don’t care about your score that much, but I don’t like how you ‘hate’ on a series because you don’t get it or because you have a different view on time travel and can’t deal with the fact that the author has another view. I like how you bring this up, because honestly, I think that this is what the series wants us to think about. Is life predestined? Is there something called free will? The Tree of Genesis pretty much orchestrated all the events, leaving humans to do its bidding without them even being aware of it (well, they do become aware of it and start thinking about it later on). MarcusAseth said: Every show that create that kind of loop either is not telling you the point where the loop begun,when it was not a loop but the first "true" timeline or it is telling you that all the timeline is static and bound to repeat,wich is a cheap way to handle the timetravel. Again, that’s your view on time travel and I don’t think it’s a cheap way to handle it at all. Let’s go with your view. I’ll give you a general example that has nothing to do with the anime. Person A travels back in time, changes something, which causes the death of person B, who was A’s grandfather. So A was never born. Then what? How can A ever travel to the past to cause the death of B? MarcusAseth said: the difference is that I'm backing up my claim with logic,you are not even trying to do that...you are just saying "is like this because the anime said that this happen" but you are not critically thinking outside of it in any of the reply that you wrote... is like "I believe in god because they told me there is a god" and then you don't do the extra effort to prove it,not even with a logic reasoning...so if I said that if you want to take that as an insult you are free to do so,but it is you the one who write stuff without backing it up in any way other than stating the fact of what happened in the anime and not going beyond it. Just because I didn’t yell out This is logical! Can’t you see that?! doesn’t mean that what I said wasn’t logical. Read it again. Everything I said is logical, maybe you don’t understand that, but that’s something I can’t help. And if you read my post, you will notice that I generalized and didn’t only refer to the anime. Moreover, you wanted an explanation of something that happened in the anime, so that’s what I gave you in the beginning. As for why Aika didn’t choose another option, even when one would have been present, I say just one thing: people aren’t machines. People have personalities and make different choices according to their personalities. People don’t always make the right choice and people don’t always agree on what the right choice is. Aika tried to be rational and make the best choice for everyone. You really don’t like suicide, do you? And still, there are many people in this world who commit suicide, every day. Now, I’m going to read that other thread when I have enough time on my hands. Takuan_Soho said: Go watch episode 22 again Don’t tell him to rewatch something. He thinks it’s silly and for dumb people. |
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Again, that’s your view on time travel and I don’t think it’s a cheap way to handle it at all. Let’s go with your view. I’ll give you a general example that has nothing to do with the anime. Person A travels back in time, changes something, which causes the death of person B, who was A’s grandfather. So A was never born. Then what? How can A ever travel to the past to cause the death of B? A go back. The same instant he goes back,he switch "dimension" or "timeline" so to say,he kill his grandfather and this other timeline has indeed another future,one where he will never born but he will keep living there as a stranger from another timeline. The timeline he left,will simply continue without him. See? Is always possible to handle things without having to create a paradox. There also other answer,that still don't give a paradox,but I just woke up and I don't feel like writing them. The thing that you are missing in your example is the arrangement between the reasons present in the anime. Your example make sense,because A go back to kill the grandfather,so is easy to see the first time where a loop can trigger,but if you consider the anime,it would be like "A go back where the grandfater was already dead,just to found that he is the one who kills him"...the difference is HUGE,because given the future you lived was created by another of you going back and killing him,it would mean you are already in a loop,so the example is not the same at all. |
| That's assuming there are several dimensions, which I don't believe is the case in Zetsuen, but okay. First you say I'm only sticking to the anime, now my example is too different and nothing like the anime at all. Make up your mind. The reasons in the anime are obvious to me, as I have already explained (I've just been repeating myself these past few posts, but you insist it's all illogical). Yes there is a loop, but it all makes sense, and there doesn't have to be answer to the question 'which came first'. Is the existence of chickens and eggs a plothole, just because you don't know where it started? |
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nedratje said: It's been a while since I've seen the series and it's all a bit vague, but here's what I think anyway. but that dosent mean . yes we saw the timeline, a "fixed timeline" as its presented was fixed, becasue that timeline was occorred because of that timelines future. But that still dosent explain the reason of |
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