| I have chosen to start a discussion topic for this because it has intrigued me ever since i heard it's meaning on 'the melancholy of haruhi suzumiya' where Itsuki is talking to Kyon about it. Without going into too much detail the idea goes that the universe exists because we, as human beings on a higher plane of existence, can observe it and that if humans hadn't been born into this existence here on a planet that can sustain life then it would have been somewhere else because without humans to observe it, the universe does not exist. There are many other theory's to this principal this is the principal in it's simplest form, to go into more detail would be rather confusing but look it up if you're interested to learn more, my question to you- do you think this theory is true? |
daievJan 11, 2008 9:47 AM
Ah cheese, the devil's play thing. |
| i kinda believe in evolution, so i couldn't agree with it no. i have heard this interesting theory, that life only exist for you. For example, before you meet someone they dont exist. they only exist for you and your life. kinda selfish theory aye? i dont agree with it. But its an interesting one ^^ |
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| "..forest to observe a tree fall, doesn't mean it didn't fall at all" omigod. i was gonna say that!!!! :O ofcourse it makes a sound. most stupid thing ever T__T lol "is that Solipsism?" yeah. i find it's quite interesting, just because it makes sence in some sort of way. tho i do completely disagree that i'm the one everyones living for. a strange thought. |
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| Good point, but in a sense it can be true because if something is never seen happening or reprted to have happened it may as well have never existed, right? |
| Ah cheese, the devil's play thing. |
| not right. it doesn't have to prove it's existance to anyone. i mean, for example, if i lived alone, never met or saw anyone, people might say i might as well not a lived, but hows that fair? it still happened. |
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| that is the silliest question evar...but in somways its a zen thing...if a tree falls and none is there to experience it dose it still make a sound? we know the answere is yes, BUT HOW CAN YOU PROVE IT you were not there to hear it...blag blah zen zen....and so on and so fourth |
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| Very good, thats the flaw with this theory. Although some aspects may be true the main idea is very controversial. It's also impossible to able to figure this kinda thing out unfortunately. |
| Ah cheese, the devil's play thing. |
| the thing is we ARE are own experience if we stop experiencing things then we are dead, but do we still continue on some level? the universe will, but will we? will we know that we now no longer experiencing these things which is an experience in itself ...er my ming just boggles at the shear inability of its own ability to comprehend such things >_< |
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| but if we knew the tree had fallen then we know it made a sound. Trees cant defy the laws of sound. [thats not directed at you lee :)] |
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NATASENOJan 13, 2008 10:19 AM
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| wn ability to comprehend such things >_< |
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jade-the-raptor said: but if we knew the tree had fallen then we know it made a sound. Trees cant defy the laws of sound. [thats not directed at you lee :)] yes jade but please read my post marked #9 ^_^ |
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| lol what did that have to do with tree falling. i know the "if a tree falls..." thing is spose to work on many levels, but it's just to flawed. |
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| thats the point...re read the post....the paradox continues from there...it is supposed to help you think about what is actauly, that which you are experiencing not to get tied down with the scientific principles we know to be true |
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| yeah, i know thats what the whole tree thing is about. i just dont think it's a good example considering how popular it is. |
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| its is perfect because you have two options...you either free your mind or free your mind...you either beome so boged down with the concept that its silly your mind just cant see the point: "of course it makes a sound all thing make a sound" untill you become so boxed down by reality your mind seeks freedom and searches for its deeper meaning toward existance of onself and experiences or you get it straight away and through that you understand the principle of the laws that are and you a free.....so its very good you see and this is why it is so popular...it is also simple |
NATASENOJan 13, 2008 11:29 PM
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| T_T did i not just say i know what it represents? i find the answer to fast without a whole lot of thought, therefore, it's not all that great. |
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| you dont think about it, do you |
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| yes i do.i think about things alot before i decide what i think about them. i thought about it, it used to be interesting, but then i found the answer, now i think its a shit saying. :P |
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| I voted yes, like everyone lese here it seems... , but if there really wouldn't be no homos i don't think such questions if the universe would or would not exist pop up so it's kinda right to say that there would be no universe as there would be no one of our stupid little race to acknowledge it. |
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| i find the whole idea of humans being the only creatures that experince the universe a slightly absurd one. |
 LolitaDecay said: I have no idea. It was just a random thought. And now I can't stop reading people's posts with an accent. http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/episodes.html |
| haha i'll agree with you there :) |
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| As absurd as it may be it may never be proved false. |
| Ah cheese, the devil's play thing. |
Kamaitachi said: As absurd as it may be it may never be proved false. true but it comes back to what somone said earlier on in the post, if a tree falls does it make a sound? we know the answer is yes but HOW can we prove it. also its like the cat in the box. if you have a cat and you put him in a box and seal it so nothing can get in or out how can you prove he is dead or alive? we know the answer must be dead, but with no way to open the box we can never know, so a paradox has been created. |
LolitaDecay said: I have no idea. It was just a random thought. And now I can't stop reading people's posts with an accent. http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/episodes.html |
| Very nice. I like the cat in the box paradox. Also the Paradox of how do you know that the blue you see is the blue somebody else sees. |
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| that thought drives me crazy. my red could be your green! INSANE! how would anyone ever be able to tell? >.> <.< *head explodes* whats the cat one about then? |
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| Basically the 'Cat one' is based on the idea that, if you seal something(a cat in this case) in a box you cannot touch, How do you prove the death of whats inside with no means of being able to prove it. Logic dictates that the cat will die, but if you cannot see it dead is it dead or still alive? with no way to check you can never know. |
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| but surely you would be able to smell the rotting bodie. and you can say that about anything. "yeah, my mum went to spain, but i didn't see her go to spain, i cant prove shes in spain so i have no way of telling i she was in spain or not" |
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jade-the-raptor said: but surely you would be able to smell the rotting bodie. and you can say that about anything. "yeah, my mum went to spain, but i didn't see her go to spain, i cant prove shes in spain so i have no way of telling i she was in spain or not" basically yes spain etc. The box is sealed completely you would not be able to smell it, basically use the apex of separation until you archive that which is separate. But yes you did not see you mother go to spain prove that she went. The photos could be fakes etc so unless you experience it you cannot prove its existence. |
jade-the-raptorJan 17, 2008 3:28 AM
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i think the theory of time, and life stages is enough to prove to me that the cat will die. inless it's a super cat! :O awesome. not that im keen on the man made theory of time. meuh. i dont really believe in time, however there are stages of life, that pretty much all living things have to stick by. [ and wow i just modified your message by mistake, I HAVE THE POWER >: D but dont worry, i changed it back :) ] |
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jade-the-raptor said: i think the theory of time, and life stages is enough to prove to me that the cat will die. inless it's a super cat! :O awesome. not that im keen on the man made theory of time. meuh. i dont really believe in time, however there are stages of life, that pretty much all living things have to stick by. [ and wow i just modified your message by mistake, I HAVE THE POWER >: D but dont worry, i changed it back :) ] WOW how did you edit his message? Yeah Life stages are fairly linear, but the idea is that although the logic behind the fact that with no food or water etc it will die, without proof you can never know. LOL I CAN EDIT YOURS ASWELL!!!!!!!!!!!! :O WOOW. I feel like a super hacker XD hehe! coz i made the club i guess! the amount of things that we'll never know due to proof of that kind is unlimmited, thats all im saying :) |
jade-the-raptorJan 17, 2008 3:55 AM
LolitaDecay said: I have no idea. It was just a random thought. And now I can't stop reading people's posts with an accent. http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/episodes.html |
| re read your message to get reply lol !! ^^^^^^ |
| |
| LOL thats scarier than a quote edit >_<. yeah its infinite thats what the paradoxes are there for, to help you grasp in some small way that which cannot be grasped(the infinite) |
LolitaDecay said: I have no idea. It was just a random thought. And now I can't stop reading people's posts with an accent. http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/episodes.html |
| Hahaha!!! >: D yeah, i see what you mean, but it doesn't help me to grasp, it just annoys me >.< |
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| Yeah i mean it is basically beyond the scope of our consciousness, but thats where dream states come in because when you dream you just accept that a huge tomato starts speaking to you or raptors are chasing you etc |
LolitaDecay said: I have no idea. It was just a random thought. And now I can't stop reading people's posts with an accent. http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/episodes.html |
| trust me, i dont accept raptors chasing me even in my dream XD tomatos?!! *pats* ;D |
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| you may not accept that you are being chased by such a creature but you accept that they are there or you would not be running. Tomato talking is just an idea the only tomato that has ever spoken to me is the one that sitting next to me now and he is a great vegetable to know.:P |
LolitaDecay said: I have no idea. It was just a random thought. And now I can't stop reading people's posts with an accent. http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/episodes.html |
| actually i quite often realise im dreaming, but i still run anyway :D |
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| But what are you running from? wether its from fear or fun your mind has created a completely believable image/form of what it is and it seems not under your control(in most cases dreams are not under our control because it the sub consciousness acting out against the conscious mind) I have controlled some dreams in the past but it is rare, despite knowing I am dreaming I still completely believe the world around me i.e the trees, characters, sensations, views, smells etc even though i know its a dream these thing are real non the less, which is why when i come close to dieing i feel fear. |
LolitaDecay said: I have no idea. It was just a random thought. And now I can't stop reading people's posts with an accent. http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/episodes.html |
| im running from fear of seeing them i think. yeah same here. some dreams im aware of, and some seem so real it's pretty scary. out of interest, whats the best dream you have ever had? |
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| erm, im not sure really i think it was when the N64 was coming out and i dream't about having one but then i woke up and i was'nt there :( actually thats pretty depressing. erm let me think..........i supose i had i dream about a girl that i liked that was nice :) |
LolitaDecay said: I have no idea. It was just a random thought. And now I can't stop reading people's posts with an accent. http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/episodes.html |
Yoshi-Moto said: Kamaitachi said: As absurd as it may be it may never be proved false. true but it comes back to what somone said earlier on in the post, if a tree falls does it make a sound? we know the answer is yes but HOW can we prove it. also its like the cat in the box. if you have a cat and you put him in a box and seal it so nothing can get in or out how can you prove he is dead or alive? we know the answer must be dead, but with no way to open the box we can never know, so a paradox has been created. Hmm... well it's logic that dictates the way we think however if ideas that are more ideological prove to be true it can throw all sorts of reality concepts out of order. The logical side dictates that a falling tree makes a sound because of the vibration it gives on impact however the 'truths of the mind' ideology would suggest that a person, as their existence dictates, without having felt or heard or even knew about the tree falling, to that person the tree hasn't fallen or even existed. |
| Ah cheese, the devil's play thing. |
Kamaitachi said: Yoshi-Moto said: Kamaitachi said: As absurd as it may be it may never be proved false. true but it comes back to what somone said earlier on in the post, if a tree falls does it make a sound? we know the answer is yes but HOW can we prove it. also its like the cat in the box. if you have a cat and you put him in a box and seal it so nothing can get in or out how can you prove he is dead or alive? we know the answer must be dead, but with no way to open the box we can never know, so a paradox has been created. Hmm... well it's logic that dictates the way we think however if ideas that are more ideological prove to be true it can throw all sorts of reality concepts out of order. The logical side dictates that a falling tree makes a sound because of the vibration it gives on impact however the 'truths of the mind' ideology would suggest that a person, as their existence dictates, without having felt or heard or even knew about the tree falling, to that person the tree hasn't fallen or even existed. yeah basically thats what it comes down too, If your not there to experience it, how do you prove it happend? |
LolitaDecay said: I have no idea. It was just a random thought. And now I can't stop reading people's posts with an accent. http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/episodes.html |
| there's so many things you cant prove tho, sometimes theres just no point thinking about it as it's pretty much endless. you cant prove my existance for example. |
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jade-the-raptor said: there's so many things you cant prove tho, sometimes theres just no point thinking about it as it's pretty much endless. you cant prove my existance for example. But this is the whole point of these paradoxes, to make you think or not think etc the universe is infinite when you try to grasp it you fail, so you then have a understanding that there are things you know nothing about. LOL sorry did it againe XD |
jade-the-raptorJan 17, 2008 4:00 PM
LolitaDecay said: I have no idea. It was just a random thought. And now I can't stop reading people's posts with an accent. http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/episodes.html |
| i know what your saying, it just seems a lil silly to me, as whats the point screwing up your head with those sort of questions when they can be applied to almost everything and there will never be any sort of answer. tho it is satisfying when you do come up with an answer... when there is one. right then, Who knows where space ends? im very interested in this :) |
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jade-the-raptor said: i know what your saying, it just seems a lil silly to me, as whats the point screwing up your head with those sort of questions when they can be applied to almost everything and there will never be any sort of answer. tho it is satisfying when you do come up with an answer... when there is one. right then, Who knows where space ends? im very interested in this :) there is no answer to any of these questions if there were there would be nothing to talk about |
LolitaDecay said: I have no idea. It was just a random thought. And now I can't stop reading people's posts with an accent. http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/episodes.html |
| true. it would be pretty boring. |
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