| I really enjoyed the first two episodes of this series because in the first 30 minutes of this series it was able to bring forth one of the major topics in philosophy, one that I think is extremely interesting. What does it mean to be a person? Eve no Jikan really pushes the boundaries by blurring the line between human and android with the cafe. In there the androids and humans are so similar that it is nearly impossible to tell who is human and who is not, and that is where the problem arises. There are numerous times in the series where androids are clearly seen as objects, far inferior to their human models. What's striking though is that there is really no reason for this. They have the same mental capacity and feelings that humans do so what is making them inferior? Surely humans don't think the only thing that makes humans humans is their body? Sooo, what are your thoughts about the issues in the series and what it means to be a person/human? [referencing the series of course] |
| I believe that the main reason 'driods are considered inferior, is because they are "our own" creations. We generaly treat things we create, or make irresponsibly and with little care for the object in question. We like to be in control, and if it's not on another person, it might as well be over a thinking, feeling, "lifeless" object. The company that created them obviously doens't want people knowing 'nout their intelligence and feelings. As long as we see them as inferior, they are "dehumanized" in our eyes, and we can treat them however our mood takes us. That and the possible religious conflict... >_> |
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| It's almost like that same thing could be thought of of children in that sense. We make them so they could be seen as inferior. They're of the organic variety, but they're still things that are made by others. It just seems that there should be a clearer way to define what is a sentient being [gonna replace human/person with that] and how they should be treated because treating them are mere objects is just not the right way. |
| Hi there :) I'm glad to see that other people enjoy this series as much as i do. Sirdam said: Surely humans don't think the only thing that makes humans humans is their body? The people who don't know about the Eve, probably not. The rest... maybe. Sirdam said: It's almost like that same thing could be thought of of children in that sense. We make them so they could be seen as inferior. Yes, they could, but they aren't. The way different individuals are treated on a society (a "healthy" one) clearly resides on their origin. Humanity would not treat in the same way an android manufactured on some sort of factory and a little boy who was born. It is right to say that both are "human creations", but one of them carries a closer origin to the "general idea of what is human". A little more confusing case it's Armitage III. There, the main character it's a robot capable to conceive. That draws a very blurred line. --- About the title of the topic... I've always believed that an organism, in order to be recognized as human, must regard itself as human, as the first step. The organism must "wake up" his condition (John Locke anyone?). Sirdam said: It just seems that there should be a clearer way to define what is a sentient being [gonna replace human/person with that] and how they should be treated because treating them are mere objects is just not the right way. I completely agree with you on this point. I'm trying to build some ideas about that, but it's hard, lol. Besides that, it's interesting to define not only what a sentient being is, also what a sentiment/feeling is. If a feeling isn't only a human "ability" ...do the androids "feel" just like the humans? If the answer is yes, it's an answer that generates more questions. (Sorry for the bad english, it's not my native language) |
CanopusOct 30, 2008 9:07 PM
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| I wasn't expecting much when I started the series, but it quickly left me in awe. There's just so much put into each episode. It's done so simply yet it has such a deep meaning. I really love it. Vinzalf said: Sirdam said: It's almost like that same thing could be thought of of children in that sense. We make them so they could be seen as inferior. Yes, they could, but they aren't. The way different individuals are treated on a society (a "healthy" one) clearly resides on their origin. Humanity would not treat in the same way an android manufactured on some sort of factory and a little boy who was born. It is right to say that both are "human creations", but one of them carries a closer origin to the "general idea of what is human". A little more confusing case it's Armitage III. There, the main character it's a robot capable to conceive. That draws a very blurred line. --- About the title of the topic... I've always believed that an organism, in order to be recognized as human, must regard itself as human, as the first step. The organism must "wake up" his condition (John Locke anyone?). I suppose that is true. Most people would probably be offended at the thought of their child being equivalent to a machine, but I really don't think there is much difference. I guess that stems from my wide acceptance of different beings and their nature. I just wouldn't be able to see something like the androids in this series as objects. They're wanting and needing, desires, love... how could such a thing with those abilities be an object? I'll have to check out Armitage then, that sounds like it would be VERY interesting. I don't really have a belief on what I think it means to be human. Modality is one tricky thing to explore. There are many levels to what humans are right now, but determining the core of the human to say what makes them humans is something I'm not up to the task of doing yet. =] Vinzalf said: Sirdam said: It just seems that there should be a clearer way to define what is a sentient being [gonna replace human/person with that] and how they should be treated because treating them are mere objects is just not the right way. I completely agree with you on this point. I'm trying to build some ideas about that, but it's hard, lol. Besides that, it's interesting to define not only what a sentient being is, also what a sentiment/feeling is. If a feeling isn't only a human "ability" ...do the androids "feel" just like the humans? If the answer is yes, it's an answer that generates more questions. (Sorry for the bad english, it's not my native language) It really is hard to think about what makes a person a person, that's why I am loving this series. XD Feelings and sentiment, those are certainly something to explore as well. If they're simply a physiological process [neurons in the brain being fired] then it would make one think that an android could certainly have feelings, just with a different process of doing so. Like getting to work, I could ride my bike or drive, but in the end either one of them leads to me getting to work. I'm betting the core of what Rikuo and Sammy were feeling was the same when they saw each other, just for different reasons. Your post was very well written, nothing to apologize for. ^_^ |
Sirdam said: Like getting to work, I could ride my bike or drive, but in the end either one of them leads to me getting to work. Wow, you got a point there. So we can say that both had the same emotion, but "created" from different mechanisms. Sirdam said: They're wanting and needing, desires, love... how could such a thing with those abilities be an object? Animals too, so I think that's quite a progress for androids, but once again, if the android don't recognize himself as a person, probably the human race will still treat him as a mere object. Or puppet. But not equally. Continuing with the topic... On society, a person has identity, nationality, etc. Not something the androids from The Time of Eve can't achieve. But biologically, a person it's determined by the DNA. We don't know if the androids have DNA. Probably not. And mentally, what is a person? Something i can't answer now =/ PD: There's an interesting phenomena on robotics, called the "Uncanny Valley". It's a principle which describes the reaction of humans in response to the appearence of robots with a very human look. The principle says that when a robot it's made more and more humanlike, the human will have a positive response, until it reachs the limits between the "barely human", and the "almost human". There, ironically, the human tends to find the robot "too strange" and rejects it. I think this concept it's very clear on Eve no Jikan... |
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Vinzalf said: Sirdam said: Like getting to work, I could ride my bike or drive, but in the end either one of them leads to me getting to work. Wow, you got a point there. So we can say that both had the same emotion, but "created" from different mechanisms. Sirdam said: They're wanting and needing, desires, love... how could such a thing with those abilities be an object? Animals too, so I think that's quite a progress for androids, but once again, if the android don't recognize himself as a person, probably the human race will still treat him as a mere object. Or puppet. But not equally. Continuing with the topic... On society, a person has identity, nationality, etc. Not something the androids from The Time of Eve can't achieve. But biologically, a person it's determined by the DNA. We don't know if the androids have DNA. Probably not. And mentally, what is a person? Something i can't answer now =/ PD: There's an interesting phenomena on robotics, called the "Uncanny Valley". It's a principle which describes the reaction of humans in response to the appearence of robots with a very human look. The principle says that when a robot it's made more and more humanlike, the human will have a positive response, until it reachs the limits between the "barely human", and the "almost human". There, ironically, the human tends to find the robot "too strange" and rejects it. I think this concept it's very clear on Eve no Jikan... There are a lot of instances where people will judge something by the means at which they've arrived at an end, rather than the end itself. It's something, in a lot of cases, that I think is just wrong. [things that harm other people is exempt from that] Self recognition isn't that big of a thing for me. If a person had to recognize themselves as a person to be a person then there would be countless individuals who wouldn't be people. Infants up until... I don't know what age... don't really understand the concept, or think, "hey, I'm a human," but that doesn't mean they are any less of a person than someone who does think that. That Uncanny Valley principle is pretty interesting. It does seem like the humans are like that. I think that because the line becomes so blurred when androids begin to really look like humans is why people tend to not like them. It confuses them about what they [humans] really are and so they feel the need to put the androids in their place by treating them negatively. |
| By my definition of human, they are not human. Because they are not organic. But they are however, an exact digital parallel to the the human mind. In anything is different, it's their ability to be manipulated differently through being digital, and perhaps being more efficient with what they have for a brain. Basically, the are humanoid robots. Who are perfectly up to our level of existence. But until they can have mammalian reproduction, they aren't "human". Where the line between human, and perhaps more apt the word, "transhuman", would be where transhumanism rises to meet robotics, and the two really mesh. Such instance of equal robots and transhumanism meshing together would be Megaman, from what I understand of the world. Or, Ghost in the Shell. Transhumanism is a parallel yet also slightly intrinsically connected idea to robots. Robotics is basically equal, separate, but equal entities rising to us. Transhumanism is where we both meet and interchange with each other. In this world, instead of focusing on transhumanism, or even allowing it to the level of robotics, for all we know all robotics has done is ascended to the level of human. While humans have just stayed in one place, and not taken back. And stayed in a sort of stagnant state and not becoming what can be called transhuman. So the line between organic human and robotic copy is much less blurred. So what's basically going on here, can be thought of as no less than slavery. It's slavery. The robots in this world are enslaved. It may not be human slavery, but it's slavery nonetheless. |
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