| I seriously don't understand what quality weed some people are high in when they call Yuuri x Wolfram as gay representation, the engagement happened due to a mistake and Wolfram uses that as an excuse to abuse Yuuri, it's clearly a toxic and abusive relationship @CamomiIe  1. No, Yuuri is not bisexual, he himself has mentioned plenty of times that he's only into women, he IS STRAIGHT Wolfram holds Yuuri hostage to a mistaken engagement and doesn't allow him to have the choice of his sexual preference, invades his privacy and personal space and doesn't respect his boundaries. He even tried to rape him under the pretext that their relationship will never make any progress if he leaves things up to Yuuri, of course the anime remove that scene and reduced it to Yuuri simply waking up to finding naked Wolfram in his bed and panicking for no reason. And what would be a better way to turn a straight boy gay than restricting him from having any interactions with women 2. And it's not like Yuuri hasn't tried to break the engagement, in episode 6, he said that he would take back the proposal but Wolfram said that it would hurt his pride so Yuuri even suggested that they can simply make it look like Wolfram dumped Yuuri but he doesn't agree to that either. Again when Elizabeth appeared Yuuri was ready to break the engagement but Wolfram forced Yuuri to fight Elizabeth to "prove his love for him" even though Yuuri thought it would be good opportunity to break the engagement by losing to her. Also Yuuri has expressed discontent with the way Wolfram treats him. This is from the LN Even though I'm not a patient person by any means, while waiting for the other party to turn down the engagement, I have endured it till this day so as to not aggravate the situation. And that's because the other party is a selfish prince, his highness the overly proud former prince. Nonetheless, even if I was unaware of the etiquette, it was my fault as well for carelessly getting engaged. I admit that. And that's why so as to not hurt him, I suggested countless times that I don't mind if he turns me down. Even so Wolfram completely refuses to dump me. On the contrary, on every opportunity that I bring up the topic of our engagement, it only ends up in him making fun of me. I think that anyone who possesses even average sensitivity would have disappeared long ago while getting angry or crying. Even if I do say so myself, I really have done my best. I honestly feel like praising myself for tolerating him so far without snapping. However this is impossible, it's too much for me to handle. God, I don't think I can endure this anymore. Also this series was originally meant to be what the author calls Boys Gag not Boys Love and the engagement was supposed to be a running joke. Here's a comment from the author: And now we'll talk about the "couples". A lot of people send me letters telling me they want Conrad x Yuuri , or Wolfram x Yuuri to be together. Stuff like that, always makes me feel strange. Since I didn't think it was clearly a boys-love style story, I didn't think about that kind of stuff. I, rather than thinking about who will end up with who, think about how to make more and more gags. I want to have tons and tons of that, rather than the other. For real, lately I've been having a shortage of gags..... So, if this book, seems to be a little biased towards a particular couple, it has nothing to do with the main story, so please just laugh it off, as if it were a bad dream. Even if evidence piles up, nothing has been decided yet. I haven't decided anything. Ah! But Beatrice x Yuuri seems promising, right? Ah, but that's also a troublesome remark. Because that would be completely illegal, Shibuya Yuuri. (I wonder if he's even interested in healthy relationships). Simple question, if Yuuri was a lesbian girl and Wolfram was a straight guy with the rest remaining exactly the same but Yuuri turning straight for Wolfram in the end, would you still have hailed this as representation or thrown a fit about it being homophobic? Given how Wolfram cannot respect Yuuri's sexuality, this is the perfect case of heterophobia. @CamomiIe Also let's talk about why you are so confused regarding my reviews. |
| Hi! I don't disagree with you about yuuram in the kkm anime being bad lgbtq+ representation. Unfortunately it feels like a product of its time, as an early 2000s isekai slapstick comedy (”Boys Gag” as you mentioned the author called it) where a lot of the queer themes were played up for laughs in typical 2000s fashion. It's apparent that the characterizations remain shallow and stagnant throughout seasons since there was never really any clear direction for the anime to go, as it barely follows the source material and has a lot of filler/stand-alone storylines with no lasting character development carried between arcs. Wolfram in particular was also molded to fit more into the violent tsundere archetype for some reason, and he never seems to grow very much beyond his "wagamama puu" phase, unlike in the LN. I have no idea why the anime made the choice to make him physically abusive towards Yuuri either, but it's such a great disservice to his character and I really hate it. However, I find it a little disingenuous and misleading to stick one excerpt from the light novels into this argument and treat it like that's an overall summary of how Yuuri feels about Wolfram even in the source material? Especially when anyone who has read the novels should know VERY well that their relationship develops a lot and is FAR from toxic! Personally I also hc Yuuri as a closeted bisexual, because the way he's reacting to Wolfram (and Saralegui to some extent) in the novels is not straight boy behavior lol. Anyway, I would like to share some LN excerpts as well, so that any anime watchers who (like me) always wanted to see a more developed yuuram bond could get an idea of what a lovely mutual partnership (platonic or romantic, your choice) they're missing out on! These are all from Yuuri's POV btw. Yuuri Shibuya, allegedly 100% straight, thinks Wolf looks "lovelier than a girl": Yuuri appreciates Wolfram's forthright personality even when he's being a hardass, actually: Yuuri's patented Anti-Gay Thoughts Mantra: Yuuri, overjoyed after regaining his vision, using his powers (eyes) for good (admiring Wolfram's beauty. Again.) Yuuri musing that he would outright date Wolfram if only he wasn't a guy: Yuuri and Wolfram having a relaxed, effortlessly cute dress-up moment: Yuuri and Wolf on their Mission Impossible:Stowaways mission (and Yuuri thinks Wolf makes a cute cook): Yuuri misses the banter, comfort and sense of safety he gets from being together with Wolfram: Yuuri openly appreciating Wolfram's company and seeking out his comfort when he's dejected: Anime Yuuri: goes wild with grief when Saralegui gets hit by an arrow. LN Yuuri: sees Saralegui get hit by an arrow, proceeds to think about that time when Wolf got hit by an arrow (and he went wild with grief). Calms himself down by telling himself Wolf is safe and it was only Sara getting hurt this time (lol???): Yuuri thinks about a time Wolfram almost died in front of him. Uses the same phrasing of "taisetsu na hito/person important to me" that Conrad and Adalbert both use for Julia (in the very romantic sense, in their case): Aaaaand my personal favorite! "I would give you anything, Wolf." |
harmonization said: That's not true, I re-read the LN last year and Wolfram is physically violent towards him there too, for example he throws books at him in vol. 2 and tries to rape him at the end of vol. 2. When Yuuri asks for water in vol. 3 he shoves Yuuri's head in the water bowl, during the Caloria arc when Yuuri was talking to Flynn Wolfram threw a knife between them to separate them. Wolfram has absolutely 0 development in the LN, he just randomly changes his attitude overnight, you won't notice it if you watch the anime beforehand where Wolfram's development is more gradual because of the fillers. However, I find it a little disingenuous and misleading to stick one excerpt from the light novels into this argument and treat it like that's an overall summary of how Yuuri feels about Wolfram even in the source material? Especially when anyone who has read the novels should know VERY well that their relationship develops a lot and is FAR from toxic! harmonization said: Your excerpt itself shows Yuuri's preference for women, and there's no rule saying that you are gay if you praise the looks of someone belonging to the same gender.Yuuri Shibuya, allegedly 100% straight, thinks Wolf looks "lovelier than a girl": harmonization said: And that scene makes 0 sense, Wolfram had done absolutely nothing for Yuuri on their trip so far yet he thanks him. Not to mention right after that scene Yuuri says that he wants to break up the engagement but Wolfram doesn't listen and locks himself in the closet.Yuuri appreciates Wolfram's forthright personality even when he's being a hardass, actually: harmonization said: It's "if he was a girl" which he isn't Yuuri musing that he would outright date Wolfram if only he wasn't a guy: It's very obvious from the author's twitter account that she's a Wolfram simp and from interviews she even admitted that she has no clue how a high school boy would feel or think so she just wrote a caricature of a boy she and other fujos could self-insert into. You seem to have entirely ignored my quote from the LN, if Yuuri felt that way about Wolfram then it would take considerable development for him to go from that to accepting him which isn't the case. Added to which Yuuri didn't think about Wolfram even for an instant when Hashimoto Asami asked Yuuri out and suggested to be his girlfriend, Yuuri himself called her his girlfriend when he was on the ship to Seisakoku. When talking to Flynn Yuuri even mentioned that he was a single father which means he had not accepted Wolfram. The latter part of the LN heavily relies on the anime for development which is why Yuuri doesn't accept Wolfram as Greta's second father much later until the Prison arc despite both of them not having spent time together with Greta, looks like the author just randomly went along with it because of the anime. Wolfram keeps on forcing Yuuri into a relationship he never wanted until he simply gets used to having Wolfram around, Yuuri never had a choice to opt out from the relationship and choose someone else, Wolfram would never allow him to, so no their relationship in the LNs is just as terrible. LN Yuuri seems like a huge masochist to me. It's your typical run-of-the-mill BL that romanticizes a toxic relationship. |
Maou_heikaJun 9, 6:19 AM
Reply to Maou_heika
harmonization said:
However, I find it a little disingenuous and misleading to stick one excerpt from the light novels into this argument and treat it like that's an overall summary of how Yuuri feels about Wolfram even in the source material? Especially when anyone who has read the novels should know VERY well that their relationship develops a lot and is FAR from toxic!
That's not true, I re-read the LN last year and Wolfram is physically violent towards him there too, for example he throws books at him in vol. 2 and tries to rape him at the end of vol. 2. When Yuuri asks for water in vol. 3 he shoves Yuuri's head in the water bowl, during the Caloria arc when Yuuri was talking to Flynn Wolfram threw a knife between them to separate them. Wolfram has absolutely 0 development in the LN, he just randomly changes his attitude overnight, you won't notice it if you watch the anime beforehand where Wolfram's development is more gradual because of the fillers. However, I find it a little disingenuous and misleading to stick one excerpt from the light novels into this argument and treat it like that's an overall summary of how Yuuri feels about Wolfram even in the source material? Especially when anyone who has read the novels should know VERY well that their relationship develops a lot and is FAR from toxic!
harmonization said:
Yuuri Shibuya, allegedly 100% straight, thinks Wolf looks "lovelier than a girl":
Your excerpt itself shows Yuuri's preference for women, and there's no rule saying that you are gay if you praise the looks of someone belonging to the same gender.Yuuri Shibuya, allegedly 100% straight, thinks Wolf looks "lovelier than a girl":
harmonization said:
Yuuri appreciates Wolfram's forthright personality even when he's being a hardass, actually:
And that scene makes 0 sense, Wolfram had done absolutely nothing for Yuuri on their trip so far yet he thanks him. Not to mention right after that scene Yuuri says that he wants to break up the engagement but Wolfram doesn't listen and locks himself in the closet.Yuuri appreciates Wolfram's forthright personality even when he's being a hardass, actually:
harmonization said:
Yuuri musing that he would outright date Wolfram if only he wasn't a guy:
It's "if he was a girl" which he isn't Yuuri musing that he would outright date Wolfram if only he wasn't a guy:
It's very obvious from the author's twitter account that she's a Wolfram simp and from interviews she even admitted that she has no clue how a high school boy would feel or think so she just wrote a caricature of a boy she and other fujos could self-insert into. You seem to have entirely ignored my quote from the LN, if Yuuri felt that way about Wolfram then it would take considerable development for him to go from that to accepting him which isn't the case. Added to which Yuuri didn't think about Wolfram even for an instant when Hashimoto Asami asked Yuuri out and suggested to be his girlfriend, Yuuri himself called her his girlfriend when he was on the ship to Seisakoku. When talking to Flynn Yuuri even mentioned that he was a single father which means he had not accepted Wolfram. The latter part of the LN heavily relies on the anime for development which is why Yuuri doesn't accept Wolfram as Greta's second father much later until the Prison arc despite both of them not having spent time together with Greta, looks like the author just randomly went along with it because of the anime.
Wolfram keeps on forcing Yuuri into a relationship he never wanted until he simply gets used to having Wolfram around, Yuuri never had a choice to opt out from the relationship and choose someone else, Wolfram would never allow him to, so no their relationship in the LNs is just as terrible. LN Yuuri seems like a huge masochist to me.
It's your typical run-of-the-mill BL that romanticizes a toxic relationship.
Maou_heika said: That's not true, I re-read the LN last year and Wolfram is physically violent towards him there too, for example he throws books at him in vol. 2 and tries to rape him at the end of vol. 2. When Yuuri asks for water in vol. 3 he shoves Yuuri's head in the water bowl, during the Caloria arc when Yuuri was talking to Flynn Wolfram threw a knife between them to separate them. Meanwhile the anime will have Wolfram waking up from a nightmare and kicking a sleeping Yuuri in the face unprovoked. Or chasing him at swordpoint and threatening to kill him if he won't reciprocate his love (in your posted screencap). In your intro post you talk about people smoking weed for interpreting two characters a certain way – IMO comparing anime yuuram to LN yuuram also requires smoking some high quality weed. Also note that I said their relationship develops and Wolfram grows a lot as a character where he starts shelving his agendas and putting Yuuri's wellbeing before himself – you’re pulling examples from novels 2 and 3 out of 17. I don't actually recall Wolfram throwing any books at Yuuri in the LN either, so if you can back that one up, please do? All I know is that he threw books in the second stageplay, and throws a pillow in the anime. In the LN he just complains (lol). Here, have Wolfram comforting Yuuri when they’re hiding from pirates in novel 2 instead, showing that he does have kindness and a protective instinct in him even early on in the series. This was curiously omitted from the anime as well: You're right about the water scene. The Flynn scene is not physical abuse. The bedroom scene is Wolfram telling Yuuri he sneaked over to consummate their engagement, Yuuri asking him to clarify, and Wolfram misunderstanding it as an affirmative. He doesn't try to rape him or touch him inappropriately before Yuuri runs off. But to be clear I do NOT agree with any shippers who try to make the bedroom scene appear like he was even remotely interested just because he dropped the "let me wash first" line. (Yes, I've seen one or two shippers make that claim and I find it very distasteful.) Also going to drop that scene so people can decide for themselves if it's SA or not: Maou_heika said: Wolfram has absolutely 0 development in the LN, he just randomly changes his attitude overnight, you won't notice it if you watch the anime beforehand where Wolfram's development is more gradual because of the fillers. The big shift in his character wasn’t out of nowhere. It was after Conrad and Yuuri’s disappearance and/or presumed deaths, where he had to grapple with the thought of losing two very important people in his life and he has an emotional breakdown. Afterwards when Yuuri loses Conrad by his side, Wolf acknowledges that he has to step the F up, and steps into the role of his king’s protector, rather than his spoiled fiance who used to stand by in the sidelines while Conrad pulled all heavy retainer load. Every Wolfram-POV chapter starting from Caloria arc has him introspecting and acknowledging his faults. And y'know. Developing. Yuuri commenting on how Wolfram's seems to have changed immediately after being reunited with him after the assassination scare: Here are some other examples of third parties noticing that Wolfram has grown a lot post-Caloria. Sizemore: Adalbert: Yuuri: Yuuri again: Yuuri once more: Maou_heika said: Your excerpt itself shows Yuuri's preference for women, and there's no rule saying that you are gay if you praise the looks of someone belonging to the same gender. My excerpts also show Yuuri talking about how his heart flutters over a beauty like Wolfram showing interest in him, and he has to resort to OTHER justifications why he’s not supposed to be affected by him since ”we’re both boys” doesn’t work. But for some reason you didn’t quote that one. (shrug) I also never claimed he’s gay, but that I interpret him as a closeted bisexual and that I think it’s a reasonable read to have of him. Maou_heika said: And that scene makes 0 sense, Wolfram had done absolutely nothing for Yuuri on their trip so far yet he thanks him. To me it shows how Yuuri values Wolfram not for what he contributes with on their trips, but for how freely the two of them can argue and banter as friends, giving him back a sense of normalcy in otherwise high-stress situations. Which was also blatantly stated by Yuuri himself in one of the other excerpts I posted. Maou_heika said: It's very obvious from the author's twitter account that she's a Wolfram simp and from interviews she even admitted that she has no clue how a high school boy would feel or think so she just wrote a caricature of a boy she and other fujos could self-insert into. You seem to have entirely ignored my quote from the LN, if Yuuri felt that way about Wolfram then it would take considerable development for him to go from that to accepting him which isn't the case. Added to which Yuuri didn't think about Wolfram even for an instant when Hashimoto Asami asked Yuuri out and suggested to be his girlfriend, Yuuri himself called her his girlfriend when he was on the ship to Seisakoku. When talking to Flynn Yuuri even mentioned that he was a single father which means he had not accepted Wolfram. The latter part of the LN heavily relies on the anime for development which is why Yuuri doesn't accept Wolfram as Greta's second father much later until the Prison arc despite both of them not having spent time together with Greta, looks like the author just randomly went along with it because of the anime. Not sure how I'm supposed to reply to this tbh? If the author likes Wolfram the most, let her like Wolfram the most? (So valid of her actually). Yuuri is supposed to be an average joe isekai self-insert, that's the whole point. And I didn't ignore your quote from the LN, I decided to log onto my dirt-old MAL account precisely because of the LN post, since I thought it was a disingenuous move to include it in the first place, as I said. If you feel like there was no development of their relationship and that Yuuri didn't grow to treasure Wolfram within the 17 released novels+side stories, then I don't know what to tell you, it seems like we've been reading two different medias. I also never claimed Yuuri canonically considers Wolfram his romantic partner or that he didn't call Hashimoto his girlfriend. I'm here to argue my case that LN yuuram isn't a toxic relationship, and that pulling them into a conversation about whatever the hell anime-yuuram is supposed to be, is a no-no to me. Maou_heika said: LN Yuuri seems like a huge masochist to me. It's your typical run-of-the-mill BL that romanticizes a toxic relationship. It's not a BL, it's Boys Gag, remember? Anyway here's even Conrad, your favorite character, commenting on how Wolf treats Yuuri :) (Apollo 2019) |
harmonization said: Wolfram threw a knife between Yuuri and Flynn in the LN unprovoked as well, just because Yuuri was talking to Flynn, aren't you going to talk about that?Meanwhile the anime will have Wolfram waking up from a nightmare and kicking a sleeping Yuuri in the face unprovoked. Or chasing him at swordpoint and threatening to kill him if he won't reciprocate his love (in your posted screencap). harmonization said: You seriously think that someone trapping you in an unwanted relationship and then barging into your bed even when you don't want to and keep on doing that shit till you get used to it is romantic? The whole gaiden story about the bearbee exists because Yuuri wanted a private room to himself. But fujos always support hot gay rapists, don't they? Everything is forgiven as long as it's a hot gay bishounen, isn't it?In your intro post you talk about people smoking weed for interpreting two characters a certain way – IMO comparing anime yuuram to LN yuuram also requires smoking some high quality weed. harmonization said: What happened at the beginning of the LN is very important too, it's hard to believe that Yuuri was so frustrated with Wolfram at one point but then magically changed to simping to him later which makes no sense. Can you even tell why how or when did Wolfram magically develop feelings for Yuuri when he was so opposed to him in vol. 1? Also when in the LN timeline exactly did Yuuri develop feelings for Wolfram when they haven't even spent much time together. Also note that I said their relationship develops and Wolfram grows a lot as a character where he starts shelving his agendas and putting Yuuri's wellbeing before himself – you’re pulling examples from novels 2 and 3 out of 17. harmonization said: Sorry my bad, it was in the manga vol. 2 pg 155 where Wolfram tries to hit Yuuri with Gunter's diary.All I know is that he threw books in the second stageplay, and throws a pillow in the anime. In the LN he just complains (lol). harmonization said: That's so minor the scene doesn't even make a difference, Yuuri has no reason to be thankful for that when Conrad has done so much more to support him yet he never thanks him.Here, have Wolfram comforting Yuuri when they’re hiding from pirates in novel 2 instead, showing that he does have kindness and a protective instinct in him even early on in the series. This was curiously omitted from the anime as well: harmonization said: Then what is it? Is it a healthy relationship where you need to stop a throw a knife because you can't stand your love interest talking with someone?The Flynn scene is not physical abuse. harmonization said: Yuuri clearly said "NO" as shown in your excerpt but Wolfram still pulled him down in bed and Yuuri. Wolfram has never been one to care about consent, he only cares about his own feelings. Also you forgot to add the text from the next page:The bedroom scene is Wolfram telling Yuuri he sneaked over to consummate their engagement, Yuuri asking him to clarify, and Wolfram misunderstanding it as an affirmative. He doesn't try to rape him or touch him inappropriately before Yuuri runs off. But to be clear I do NOT agree with any shippers who try to make the bedroom scene appear like he was even remotely interested just because he dropped the "let me wash first" line. (Yes, I've seen one or two shippers make that claim and I find it very distasteful.) I was still wearing my underwear. And it was that underwear of all things. In the middle of the star tours that I have gotten used to while sheding tears I thought. Better. Rather than having things settled like that or rather than having been done by him, returning to Japan wearing this underwear is so much better! And yet when Yuuri meets Wolfram the next time he acts normal as if the scene never happened which I don't like because the author is clearly downplaying the SA which is nothing unusual coming from a BL author, rape is funny for them. And when Shinou puts his arms around Wolfram the author is quick to label it as "sexual-harassment" in the afterword, the double-standards! harmonization said: Wolfram treated Conrad like shit for years together, how convenient that he only starts treating him as his brother after he disappears specially when he shows up as the enemy and Yuuri immediately sympathizes with him, the disgusting fujo author just wanted to give him pity points from Yuuri . Not to mention the shift in character happens before that as well, like when he immediately started treating Greta as his daughter despite her being a human that tried to assassinate Yuuri. Remember that Wolfram in vol. 1 was just thinking of reasons to start a war against the humans? He had that attitude for 82 years, people don't change that easily specially given that they have only ever gotten into trouble when they were on human lands.The big shift in his character wasn’t out of nowhere. It was after Conrad and Yuuri’s disappearance and/or presumed deaths, where he had to grapple with the thought of losing two very important people in his life and he has an emotional breakdown. harmonization said: Wolfram is useless as Yuuri's protector given that he lost to him during their duel and even admitted that he wasn't holding back. Even during Seisakoku arc he attacked Yuuri without forst confirming who was there, even if Yuuri blames himself it was clearly Wolfram's fault. The whole thing with Conrad happened only because the disgusting bitch of an author hated Conrad and most thought that getting rid of Conrad would give way for Wolfram to shine.Afterwards when Yuuri loses Conrad by his side, Wolf acknowledges that he has to step the F up, and steps into the role of his king’s protector, rather than his spoiled fiance who used to stand by in the sidelines while Conrad pulled all heavy retainer load. Every Wolfram-POV chapter starting from Caloria arc has him introspecting and acknowledging his faults. And y'know. Developing. harmonization said: The whole "finally caught you" scene is the biggest bs I've ever read. To being with why would Gisela go on a vacation when their country was just recently under attack, added to which Wolfram's only clue about Yuuri's whereabouts was somewhere in Cimarron, that's a whole continent! He left the castle before Gwendal received message about Yuuri being in Caloria. Even if by some miracle if Wolfram reached Caloria there's no way he could trace the path Yuuri was on given that the ship had taken a different path to transport the POW to experiment with the box. Also there was a huge earthquake and water flowing, how exactly do you think that Wolfram was able to reach Yuuri under such circumstances when Yozak and Murata who were closer to him couldn't?Yuuri commenting on how Wolfram's seems to have changed immediately after being reunited with him after the assassination scare: harmonization said: That's not development and given the circumstances he wouldn't have the luxury of behaving like a brat. Why does Wolfram need to be praised for doing something that's normal and expected of the king's subordinate? Gwendal and Conrad never receive any praise despite helping Yuuri a lot more than Wolfram.Here are some other examples of third parties noticing that Wolfram has grown a lot post-Caloria. harmonization said: No, he's not Yuuri is a straight boy that was forced to go gay because the series is a shitty BL. You didn't answer my question from my op btw. Would the exact same thing fly if Yuuri was a lesbian girl and Wolfram a straight guy? My excerpts also show Yuuri talking about how his heart flutters over a beauty like Wolfram showing interest in him, and he has to resort to OTHER justifications why he’s not supposed to be affected by him since ”we’re both boys” doesn’t work. But for some reason you didn’t quote that one. (shrug) I also never claimed he’s gay, but that I interpret him as a closeted bisexual and that I think it’s a reasonable read to have of him. In Mahiru no Kettou Yuuri clearly mentioned that there's no love in their relationship and that what Wolfram does is a breach of privacy and he also adds: "Listen Wolf, a man can't become a bride. Just like tomorrow is written as a bright day, in Japan bride is written with the radical for woman and house. Even if you are cute like an angle I have no intentions of taking a man as my bride" In fact the whole of Mahiru no Kettou just screams about how toxic their relationship is. The whole incident with the bearbees happened because Yuuri wanted some privacy and a room to himself. harmonization said: So basically Yuuri is a masochist that likes being abused and insulted.To me it shows how Yuuri values Wolfram not for what he contributes with on their trips, but for how freely the two of them can argue and banter as friends, giving him back a sense of normalcy in otherwise high-stress situations. Which was also blatantly stated by Yuuri himself in one of the other excerpts I posted. harmonization said: The author showing blatant favoritism towards a character and hating another ruins the series. Also self-praise is no praise, she's a narcissist for liking a character she writes herself and then self-inserts into Yuuri to ship him with her. Notice how Wolfram's actions are always forgiven? Wolfram never received any punishment for injuring Yuuri but the author said that Conrad shouldn't get away without any punishment for what he has done due to which he isn't allowed to live in the castle and be Yuuri's bodyguard after he finally returns. The author also mentioned in her interview that she hates "cool" guys and that's why she hates Conrad and reduced Gunter into nothing more than comic relief but then she calls Wolfram "cool" and praises him for it, sounds like double standards to me. And Yuuri quite literally just parrots the exact same opinions the author expresses in her interviews.Not sure how I'm supposed to reply to this tbh? If the author likes Wolfram the most, let her like Wolfram the most? (So valid of her actually). harmonization said: And that's terrible writing, she should have just made Yuuri a girl in that case, at least the sexuality barrier wouldn't exist in that case because I highly doubt that she would have made female Yuuri a lesbian.Yuuri is supposed to be an average joe isekai self-insert, that's the whole point. harmonization said: You clearly read it with your fujo goggles, I didn't. To you the only LN parts that are valid are where Yuuri praises Wolfram and the entire LN is quite shallow given how many times the authors rubs on to your face that Wolfram is beautiful, Yuuri is shallow too for constantly commenting on his looks, his justice falls flat on his face given that he punched his baseball coach but didn't punch Wolfram for insulting his mother just because he has a pretty face. Most of the side stories don't even fit anywhere in the LN timeline given that both Conrad and Greta are in there together.And I didn't ignore your quote from the LN, I decided to log onto my dirt-old MAL account precisely because of the LN post, since I thought it was a disingenuous move to include it in the first place, as I said. If you feel like there was no development of their relationship and that Yuuri didn't grow to treasure Wolfram within the 17 released novels+side stories, then I don't know what to tell you, it seems like we've been reading two different medias. harmonization said: You have added so many quotes and claim that Yuuri is bi and loves Wolfram in that case why did he not think about Wolfram even for a second when Hashimoto asked him out but instead was overjoyed saying that an actual girl the same age as him asked him out.I also never claimed Yuuri canonically considers Wolfram his romantic partner or that he didn't call Hashimoto his girlfriend. harmonization said: I stand by my argument, Wolfram has trapped Yuuri into an unwanted relationship, he never allows him the freedom to choose whom he wants to choose. Would you be happy if someone invades your personal space and privacy and insults you? If Wolfram truly cared about Yuuri then he wouldn't forcibly keep him tied to himself using a mistaken engagement as an excuse till Yuuri simply got used to it because there was no other option. Just read the second quote in my op, looks like even the author knows that Yuuri x Wolfram is not a healthy relationship because of which she mentions "I wonder if he's even interested in healthy relationships"I'm here to argue my case that LN yuuram isn't a toxic relationship, and that pulling them into a conversation about whatever the hell anime-yuuram is supposed to be, is a no-no to me. harmonization said: In my op I clearly said initially, the series did turn into an actual BL later given how the author constantly romanticizes Wolfram's actions, she's not only a narcissist but also a pathological liar. Also just because I love Conrad doesn't mean I accept everything he says, in volume 3 even Yuuri comments that Conrad isn't helping him resolve the matter with the mistaken engagement:It's not a BL, it's Boys Gag, remember? Anyway here's even Conrad, your favorite character, commenting on how Wolf treats Yuuri :) (Apollo 2019) That's not done Conrad, your only baseball buddy in this world is getting into a marriage fraud... no, wait rather than marriage fraud it's gender deception...? Also forgot to mention your "personal favorite" quote from Misepan 2 is taken out of context, Yuuri didn't mean in a romantic way but rather helping if he lost something important. In the very same story Yuuri also mentions that he had "forgotten" that Greta treats Wolfram as her father too. This is the series that taught me that characters are noting more than ink on paper and the authors can easily manipulate them to their will irrespective of whether it's inline with the character's personality so far. |
harmonization said: You will defend Wolfram while show double standards when it comes to other characters won't you? She force fed him the wine, that's not a kiss. Also Flynn had her reasons behind her actions, she was doing it for her country unlike Wolfram's selfish motives to get into Yuuri's pants. Flynn also acknowledges all the wrong she has done to Yuuri while the scenes with Wolfram gets swept under the rug. Remember that Wolfram never even apologized for insulting Yuuri's mother neither does he apologize for trying to force Yuuri into sex at the end of vol. 2 and Yuuri had clearly stated that he wanted to break the mistaken engagement in the very same volume, how delusional does Wolfram have to be to try to have sex with the guy who said he wanted to break up? Besides just how people are out there that ship Yuuri x Flynn? I haven't come across even a single Yuuri x Flynn shipper while Yuuram shippers are the majority. But the editor GEG did mention in ma-hon that vol. 8 is the only vol that has any romance which is supposed to one-sided from Yuuri's side, really makes me believe that he's a masochist:The same Flynn that had just talked about how she planned to sell off Yuuri to the enemy? (And if we want to talk about sexual assault, who kissed a non-consenting defenseless Yuuri to force wine into his mouth?) The final volume of the "Caloria Arc". The volume which leaves a dignified impression of Flynn, the female ruler of Caloria. And perhaps the only volume which stands out for having romance. Escorting her well despite being an inelegant baseball boy was a bit entrancing. But maybe this attitude was because Yuuri didn’t have enough self-consciousness about love. In the end Flynn clearly dumped him saying that "we are friends" (laughs) harmonization said: Wolfram doesn't know what happened between Flynn and Yuuri and even if he did he has no business to interfere when Yuuri is having a conversation with someone. If Wolfram respected Yuuri's wishes and autonomy he wouldn't have tried to stop Flynn from talking to him.The same Flynn who Wolfram was looking for permission to kill moments earlier as revenge for that? Can’t imagine why he’d do that! I wasn’t talking about that scene because you called it physical abuse, and it wasn’t abuse. In that scene he told Flynn to stay the fuck away? harmonization said: That's vol. 9 ch 7 Pg 145A more reasonable example of his jealousy rearing its ugly head and him physically taking it out on Yuuri is whenever Saralegui comes into the picture tbh. IIRC he pinches Yuuri for being too receptive to Sara's flirting at some point? I'll have to find the chapter, but that's like the only notable case I can remember. Speaking of Wolfram's abuses there was a point where he clearly said called out Wolfram for domestic violence. From Kakka-ma's special booklet "Darekaga moete iru ka" pg 26 "Speaking of Princess Greta, the other day when it was her homecoming... his majesty asked her. About what will you become when you grow up? And then Princess Greta gave a cute answer saying she's be his majesty Yuuri's bride. At that moment his majesty's face! He melted and became happy... Even though I who basically adore men without thinking turned over to Princess Greta" "But you know what happened after that? His Excellency Wolfram who heard that became very agitated and his majesty's screams echoed throughout the office. I only heard a bit of it. He was screaming DV something, domestic something..." harmonization said: Isn't that the same as shipping them? They clearly don't have a healthy relationship with Wolfram holding Yuuri hostage to the engagement which was a mistake to begin with.I don’t particularly even ship yuuram romantically is the thing, I just love their dynamic and the bond they form. It’s my bad for using the term yuuram for them since it’s so associated with romantic shipping, it’s just easier than saying ”Yuuri and Wolfram’s relationship dynamic” every time. harmonization said: Doesn't change that fact that he still forcibly sleeps with him even though Yuuri doesn't want him to added to which Wolfram has really bad sleeping habits like he climbs on top of Yuuri in his sleep making him uncomfortable and he also snores. And what's done is done, it cannot be undone and Wolfram has never apologized for it either. There's also the scene with Yuuri saying he doesn't believe in having sex without love and then the scene cuts to Wolfram saying "but love is right here", I wonder what the author intended by that, consent needs to be from both parties. Also remember that this series is from 2000s, it follows the typical BL trope of hot bishounen harassing straight guy till he selectively goes gay for him. Since maruma was not originally meant to be a BL the tropes are watered down a bit but it's still the same story.Also you’re somehow tossing Wolfram into the same category as some seedy yaoi seme (cringing from using that word in 2025 btw EW) forcing sexual acts onto their resisting subs, even though all Wolf does in comparison is sleep soundly in the same bed once he knows Yuuri isn’t interested in sex. (Which he initiated on one occasion, and then thought Yuuri was initiating on a second occasion, in early arcs. He NEVER tries anything beyond that). harmonization said: How quick of you to change sides. Wolfram has no qualms about forcibly sleeping in Yuuri's bed but he's too shy to kiss? As if I'd believe that! LN Wolfram even shamelessly tried to initiate sex with Yuuri on 2 occasions. And there's a short story "Shin Makoku demo Christmas" which was also adapted into a drama CD where Wolfram, Gunter and Celi were competing to steal a kiss from Yuuri all without his consent, did you forget that? And this is an expert from "Darekaga moete iru ka" pg 28:Somehow even the anime staff managed to understand it would be entirely out of character for Wolfram to physically force himself on Yuuri, so they had to make Shinou possess his body just to cram some yuuram fanservice kiss into that one OVA to make the shippers happy. Wolfram is not a rapist. That’s a crazy thing to say. "Alright, I'll let you take off my clothes. How's that, it's an honor, right?" Although Yuuri seems to have misunderstood something Wolfram clearly had ulterior motives. Wolfram even tried to strip Gwendal to see if he has body hair in the Animate Special message paper shot story that came along with vol. 15 of the LN. You still think it would be out of character for Wolfram to forcibly kiss Yuuri despite he's shameless enough to do these things?"...why would taking off the clothes of a man be an honor..." "What, you don't like it? Jeez, you being selfish is so troublesome. It can't be helped, I'll take off your clothes..." "Or rather Wolf, you're a grown up adult at least take off your clothes by yourself" harmonization said: There's a difference, Yuuram is the main canon couple, no one is going to ship Yuuri with the other random nameless dudes that appeared just one time and for the scene you mentioned Yuuri clearly called it sexual harassment. If the author wanted to make Yuuram end game then she should have been more careful with the way she wrote their interactions. Then again I've been following both the author and editor on twitter since 2011 and both are clearly fujoshis the editor in particular likes Junjou Romantica and Sekai ichi Hatsukoi, both these works are known to be pretty rapey so they most likely didn't think much about adding such scenes since they are already used to these things being romanticized which is also most likely why the editor chose the attempted rape scene from the manga with Wolfram pinning down Yuuri in bed for the "ii fuufu no hi" (good couple day) in the kkm calendar adding that comment besides it that Wolfram would make a very good future spouse, there is no hope for the series if the author and editor have such a mindset. This is exactly why I dislike Yuuram.There are scenes even in the LN that are in poor taste, I agree, and the author should have probably a) not included them at all or b) have characters acknowledge them as such instead of the whole thing being laughed off. Such as the time Yuuri was escorted to the colosseum and was groped by the man in the carriage, so he makes Morgif shock the dude and makes a quip about static electricity, and then never thinks about that incident nor gets negatively impacted by it ever again. Or even Saralegui licking him at one point while he was blind, and it getting completely shrugged off in the next moment. Trust me, I dislike these tropes in animanga too. Unfortunately it's extremely common, or at least WAS common back in the day (I don't consume much modern stuff these days so idk how prevalent it still is). harmonization said: The only time they spent was the 4 months between vol. 3 and vol. 4 where Yuuri still seemed frustrated that he wasn't getting to have a private room to himself. And what happened during those 4 months is left upto the reader's imagination. They spent time together in Hildyard hot springs and at the end of vol. 4 Yuuri calls Wolfram his friend. Also worth noting that Wolfram always forcibly follows them on their trips uninvited like an official stalker. The Caloria arc starts right after that where Yuuri and Wolfram are separated for the first half and they haven't had any noteworthy interaction in the second half either. Yuuri spends some time alone with Wolfram in the beginning of the Seisakoku arc when they were hiding in the crate and is later separated from Yuuri till the second half of the Seisakoku arc. There just doesn't seem to be any point at which their relationship develops and yet Yuuri is shown simping to Wolfram in the later part of the Seisakoku arc, specially the bed scene where it was Wolfram's fault that Yuuri was injured in the first place and he had just used his magic but Wolfram doesn't give a fuck about Yuuri's condition and selfishly goes on to take the dry bed and Yuuri gets angry at Conrad who was concerned about his well being and goes and simps to Wolfram. The whole enemies to loves tope is very poorly done.It is of course important, but there being a progression of a story and its characters is no magic trick, it’s just how stories and character arcs work. Yuuri was frustrated with Wolf because he was acting like a hostile twat with no redeeming qualities towards him in the beginning, simple as. And then they spend months getting to know each other beyond the surface level. Enemies to lovers/enemies to friends is one of the oldest tropes in the book, c’mon now. harmonization said: That's exactly why I think that this series is very poorly written, looks like the author didn't think things through, she should have toned down Wolfram aggressing towards humans in vol. 1. Yuuri is the main character whom the series revolves around so obviously his presence is going to affect the trajectory of the story and how the characters around him develop. The demon age thing was a fun quirk and whatnot, but yeah it's going to feel like a very abrupt change when people who have lived for 100 years Suddenly have new on-screen (on-text?) character developments just because some kid fell into their world like one year ago. That's just the way the cookie crumbles in this case unfortunately. harmonization said: Wolfram is not fit to be Yuuri's protector. He goes to Seisakoku with the intent to help Yuuri but only ends up injuring him because he simply attacked without confirming who was there. Even earlier during the race in the Caloria arc Wolfram goes ahead and falls asleep when Yuuri is still awake. And I've already mentioned the bed scene from the Seisakoku arc, even later when Yelshi wanted to exchange the hostage Wolfram punched him in the gut without knocking him out cold which only caused Yuuri more pain.IMO not being an infallible protector doesn’t undermine his intentions at all, though? If anything I actually enjoy the fact that he isn’t perfect at the job that’s still somewhat new to him. Him suddenly becoming Conrad #2 and never messing up would've been unrealistic and, frankly, boring. harmonization said: I could have accepted it if it was for the sake of the plot but unlike the anime, Conrad's reason for betraying is kept incredibly vague and the author mentioned in her interview that she only made Conrad betray because her editor didn't allow her to kill him for good and that she herself hasn't thought about the reason behind the betrayal but she doesn't want to use the same reason as the anime. She literally wrote a perfectly decent character, then she wrote two giaden stories showing what motives him to protect Yuuri and then he just betrays him out of nowhere and Conrad was completely out of character at the end of the Caloria arc and the first half of the Seisakoku arc, Conrad would never push Yuuri into potential danger when he wasn't even sure if it was a portal back to Earth. She destroyed the best character for the sake of the worst.I do think Conrad being removed from Yuuri’s side does give Wolfram the time to shine (or the requirement to shine, narratively), and I can see how it’d be frustrating to a Conrad fan. Personally I enjoyed it, but y’know, if the roles were reversed and Wolfram was benched in favor of Conrad getting developed I’d probably be bitching about it too lol. harmonization said: That just proves the point I made earlier, you came in from the anime, saw Wolfram as eye candy and then looked for the good in him. I was the same, when I watched the anime on TV as a kid I used to like Wolfram but his magic eventually wore off me specially because of the way he treated Yuuri in regards to the engagement, I most definitely would have hated to have such a guy around me. Do you think you would still have supported Wolfram if he wasn't eye candy and did the exact same things to Yuuri?I mean, 10000% agree. The writing isn’t the best in many cases and the timeline often doesn’t make any sense. I still unapologetically love the scene though ;^) Seeing it (in the anime) at like age 11 rocked my world. Sorry not sorry harmonization said: Of course he was forced to go gay, do you seriously believe that even if Yuuri were to fall in love with someone Wolfram would allow him to be with that person? Yuuri agrees to marry Wolfram in the unofficial drama CD released by the author and editor and he calls Wolfram his husband in the second version of the discarded ending (although that happened within Yuuri's dream). There has been no significant development in their relationship in the LN but Yuuri still simps to Wolfram which was the only possible outcome given how a typical BL usually works. What I dislike is how the author lied in the beginning about this not being a BL.You can scream to the skies all you want that he's 100% straight and I can scream to the skies in turn that he's a closeted bisexual. I'm not sure what we're getting out of this conversation at this point, it's a character from a piece of fiction that people are allowed to interpret differently. I also don't know where the "forced to go gay" is even coming from. Just because there's a loud yuuram fandom? I don't recall the author ever saying Yuuri stopped liking girls and that he's totally gay now! Do you? harmonization said: Yuuri has stated that he's into girls but never mentioned anything about being into guys, that's what straight means.And to answer your question no, it probably wouldn't. I don't think it's a good faith comparison though, since Yuuri isn't explicitly stated by the author to even be straight. harmonization said: In that case I most certainly would be more pleased with the series but the fact is she sacrificed the best character for the sake of the worst. Although Conrad and Yuuri always got along well since the beginning and shared common interests (baseball) so there the author wouldn't need to make sudden changes in Conrad's or Yuuri's personality or their relationship neither would she require to sacrifice any other character for that sake.I hear what you're saying but to my ears it sounds like you're mainly upset about the author happening to favor a character you hate, and disliking the character that you really connected with. If she instead openly favored Conrad in the same ways you're claiming she's favoring Wolfram, and the roles were entirely reversed, I just don't think you would be nearly this upset about it?? I'm making that assumption so correct me if I'm wrong please????? harmonization said: Relying on tropes instead of using your imagination to do something different to make the series stand out is terrible writing at its finest. In the interview from Asuka 2010 April edition even the editor admitted that the LNs have many plot holes.How is a comedy series about isekai-tropes, where the mc is the trope-iest isekai mc who ever lived, terrible writing? Maruma isn't some profound piece of fiction, it was meant to be laughed at for being stupid and gag-filled. harmonization said: And I still think that holding your love interest hostage to a mistaken engagement is a toxic relationship. It was very clear that Yuuri slapped Wolfram because he insulted his mother, Yuuri also made it clear that he slapped him because he wasn't aware of the tradition and despite all that Wolfram insists on continuing the engagement even when Yuuri doesn't want. The only reason why I focused so heavily on the parts where Yuuri blatantly feels attraction to Wolfram in my first post was because I was making the case that bi Yuuri is a valid read and that he isn't a "100% straight guy forced to go gay". And I posted excerpts of Yuuri being friendly and sweet with Wolfram because you made the claim that it was a toxic and abusive relationship even in the LNs. It's not because those are the only valid parts of the LN to me, but they are the only parts that mattered in this discussion. harmonization said: Like I mentioned earlier Yuuri eventually accepts to marry Wolfram then at what point did he magically turn gay for him? It makes no sense. The author could have written a coming-of-age story about a boy discovering his sexuality but instead she wrote a mistaken engagement that was dragged out with one side forcing their feelings on the other till the other gives up and accepts his fate which is a horrible relationship. There could have been better ways to write it for example Wolfram allowing Yuuri to break up and then winning him over with his actions.Because (gasp) Yuuri doesn't consider Wolfram his romantic partner and naturally wouldn't think of it as being unfaithful. I DON'T blame him for that. Being in a relationship with a girl doesn't automatically make him confirmed straight though. If Yuuri accepting Hashimoto doesn't make him straight then why did he emphasize on her being a girl? I doubt it would have been the same outcome if a boy asked him out. From vol. 9 ch 1 pg 20 Just now, I've might have entered the first popularity season of my life. That too with someone who is actually of the opposite sex, with a girl the same age as me. harmonization said: And it doesn't fit anywhere in the LN timeline either since both Greta and Conrad are there in the castle. Yuuri had never spent any time with Wolfram and Greta together in the main timeline.Again, this doesn't diminish anything about their relationship in my eyes. Let it be romantic, let it be platonic, either way it's still sweet as hell. <3 |
| Look who is triggered now, you completely changed your tone the moment I mentioned that Conrad and Yuuri have a better relationship harmonization said: I am stating facts. Flynn doesn't have any feelings for Yuuri, she drugged so she could use him not because she wanted to kiss him, feeding someone mouth to mouth isn't a kiss. I already asked this before but you seemed to have ignored it, how delusional does Wolfram have to be to want to have sex with the person who literally told him that he wants to break up just a few days ago? Also Yuuri clearly said NO which Wolfram again ignored, sex without consent is rape or at least attempted rape in this case since Yuuri luckily managed to free himself of his grip and escape. You are simply looking for a scapegoat to undermine Wolfram's bad actions.I was using the accusations you like to throw around and applying them on another character, actually. Suddenly it’s not so black and white? Wolfram pulling Yuuri’s arm while naively thinking they were going to consummate their engagement is clear-cut unforgivable SA, nasty evil pervert Wolfram on a rape crusade har har har, but Flynn kidnapping+drugging him with a kiss isn’t? I like Flynn, and Caloria arc is my favorite. I would defend her as well if you made as much of an effort bashing her across the internet, but it seems you don’t have as much aversion to her just because the Yuuri/Flynn ship isn’t as popular as yuuram? harmonization said: The first time he stepped up to help Flynn was when she was transporting him to Big Cimarron, what sort of development did he and Flynn have during the time he was locked up? But I don't hate Flynn, she's a well written character, she had her reasons and motivations to do the things she did unlike Wolfram whose so called development makes no sense.Also why would falling in love with Flynn make you believe he’s a masochist? Because they also started off on rough terms and she did some bad shit, but they spent enough time together for him to get to know her, and witness the good in her? Sounds like you’re just allergic to any relationship that doesn’t start off with a friendly frolic on the beach. You do you, I guess. Yuuri tolerating Wolfram's actions in itself is the biggest proof that he's a huge masochist. Wolfram started insulting Yuuri and his family on their first meeting without knowing anything about them, he went back on his word and cheated on during their duel, he attacked Yuuri with his fire that was powerful enough to make the maid faint despite the barrier that Gwendal put up, you know what that means? He essentially tried to burn Yuuri to death, the only reason Yuuri survived is because he had his plot armor as the MC. Wolfram never apologized for any of it and despite that Yuuri acts like a spineless wimp who doesn't want to hurt Wolfram's pride by breaking the engagement from his end and waits for Wolfram to break up despite everything being Wolfram's fault. Saiga Mitsuki said that she wouldn't want to be even friends with Wolfram and that's the only thing I agree with her, I would have never tolerated an asshole like Wolfram. And yes, I prefer wholesome relationships unless there is character development that focuses on redemption on the same level as Koe no Katachi (the manga not the movie). harmonization said: Greta tried to assassinate Yuuri and despite Wolfram not spending any time with Greta, he immediately accepted Yuuri's decision of adopting her. Why the difference? Also Wolfram is quite the manipulative bastard, he brainwashed Greta into believing that he is also her father while Yuuri was away, he's using Greta to get close to Yuuri, no wonder in Love Letter he mentioned that they are a married couple in Greta's eyes.He did know she kidnapped Yuuri and took advantage of him for her own gain, she blatantly stated it in front of him and he even reacted to it. harmonization said: He tried to rape Yuuri so that does make him a hot gay rapist, even once is pretty bad if you ask me, but it's alright I don't expect a fujoshi to understand how consent works. Would you like someone you are not interested in forcing their way and sleeping in your bed added to with they are a terrible sleeper? Remember that the bearbee story exists because Yuuri wanted some privacy and the room to himself. Ecchi means sex in Japanese. The author knows what it means and it shows that she clearly doesn't care about consent. I'm not demonizing Wolfram, simply stating the things he does. You are the one who has a very rosy rainbow colored interpretation of him.It does change the fact that you just now reduced him to a ”hot gay rapist”, but then concede that his invasion of space in Yuuri’s bed mainly consists of him being an annoying sleeper who snores and tosses around. Also that’s a bit of a reach considering Yuuri's line is something to the effect of ”I don’t believe in doing H (ecchi) stuff without love” and Wolfram says "if you’re looking for love, it’s right here" while wondering in his head what the term "H" even means. What the writer meant by that? I don’t know, probably that Wolfram is a pretty oblivious person when it comes down to it. Or maybe just that there's a language barrier between them, which is joked about A LOT throughout the novel. You're one step away from imagining Wolfram hiding in your walls plotting your demise at this point, the way you demonize him (pun intended?) harmonization said: And besides Wolfram and Sara the others seem to respect Yuuri's boundaries which is my point.I won’t deny that the series has some BL trope-bait at least. I think the manga was the biggest culprit of this. But that goes for not only Yuuri with Wolfram but also him with Conrad, Gwendal, Saralegui. Murata if you squint. Again, par for the course with the time period this series dropped in. harmonization said: Despite there clearly being a short story where Wolfram wants to kiss Yuuri without his consent?I also stand firm by my opinion that Wolfram wouldn't forcibly start kissing on Yuuri. Not (even) in the anime, not in the LN. harmonization said: The reply from Yuuri seems far too realistic for something the maids just imagined and the scene with DV was clearly an actual scene narrated by the maid. It is very tropey just like any other BL from 2000s, straight guy forced in a relationship with hot gay dude who tried to rape him and keeps him trapped in an unwanted relationship till he gets used to it all. And one of those inexperienced chickens is a trained 82 year old soldier with the other having spent 15 years being a normal boy in Japan. What exactly has Wolfram done in 82 years of his life!? The bar for Wolfram is quite low.That excerpt you posted is how the maids imagine they would go about having sex -- that entire exchange didn’t actually happen. The fantasy even disinterested the maids because there was no sexual tension between them at all, just silly banter and misunderstandings. Kind of like how the actual yuuram relationship isn't anything hot and heavy or particularly BL-tropey, but instead as Yuuri put it one time, "two inexperienced chickens who can lean on each other harmonization said: That drama CD was released by the editor and author unlike the other drama CDs which were scripted and written by some third party from Kadokawa. As for the Christmas drama CD, the short story written by the author was released first on 29th December 2001 and later adapted into a drama CD in December 2002. I thought you were so knowledgeable about the series, what happened? So Wolfram has indeed tried to kiss Yuuri without his consent! Conrad in fact saved Yuuri with his plan from those 3 horny idiots, you really seem desperate to defend your hot gay rapist. Also I'm not a fujo, BL has always been my most hated genre unlike you who has watched both seasons of Junjou Romantica and now made your list private.Also I find it funny that you're quick to discredit character interactions within works that "don't fit into the main story" like misepan, but then jump on some random silly drama CD extra event and suddenly act like it defines the entirety of those same characters whenever it suits your narrative. That goes for the christmas/mistletoe one as well. But don't worry, I'm fully capable of bad faith arguing as well. Did you forget that the person who set up the mistletoe and orchestrated the whole kiss competition was Conrad, btw? Would you say that this means Conrad is a person who wouldn't protect Yuuri from someone forcing themselves on him against his will? A person who actively contributes to making Yuuri a victim of SA? Gasp, what a terrible protector he is! What kind of a fujoshi are you, hailing such an abuse enabler as your favorite character just because he's hot? Tut tut. harmonization said: And the difference is that Sara is supposed to be a bad guy unlike Wolfram and SaraYuu shippers are very few as compared to the majority that is Yuuram.People may not ship him with the rando in the carriage but they do ship him with Saralegui, who HAS forced himself on Yuuri and HAS unapologetically done selfish and toxic things towards him. If I was a more bored person maybe I’d make it my personality to go around calling Saralegui a toxic abusive f-word, as well. SaraYuu is also pretty amplified in the anime, where they blatantly took a moment between Wolfram and Yuuri and made it between Sara and Yuuri instead. harmonization said: So you are saying you enjoy Wolfram unintentionally causing trouble and inflicting pain on Yuuri?Reread what you’re actually replying to. I said I ENJOY that he doesn’t magically become Conrad-level capable. I'm not claiming otherwise or forcing you to feel the same way about it harmonization said: That's your opinion which greatly differs from the author constantly whining and complaining about how she hates Conrad and finds it difficult to write his character. The author herself is a fujo who wanted to shift the spotlight to Wolfram and the only way to do that was to get rid of Conrad.That’s kind of the thing. Conrad’s original fate was to be a perfect protector, reassuring presence, and confidant who heroically died protecting Yuuri. (which IN MY OPINION should have traumatized him and forced him to stand stronger on his own two legs, and also forced the people around him to try to fill Conrad’s shoes) Because he wasn’t allowed that fate, his whole character lost its purpose. It has more to do with him being a walking ghost being written into a corner and less to do with ”Wolfram snatching his spotlight because the fujos wanted it!!!!”. harmonization said: You were never a Conrad fan if you shifted to Wolfram despite seeing him try to rape Yuuri and given that you never noticed how the author did Conrad dirty in the LNs. You also mentioned that you would have been pretty salty too if the author would have got rid of Wolfram for Conrad's sake. Wolfram is a very poorly written character, there are no motivations for him to change, he simply changes because the author wants so.I don’t think it proves anything at all, considering Conrad was my favorite character when I first watched the anime and I thought he was an absolute hottie LOL. (I used to self-insert as Yuuri and rp conyuu on gaiaonline HAHAHA, though I also did ship yuuram at the time) Many years later when I read the LN, I fell in love with Wolfram’s character more. Since y’know. In the LN he actually has one. harmonization said: You didn't explain why Yuuri stressed on the fact that Hashimoto is a girl. Let me ask you again, would Yuuri be equally happy if a boy asked him out instead of Hashimoto? In Yuuri's case there are both apples (Hashimoto) and pears (Wolfram) in front of him but he still chooses apples. If I stated that I like apples, that doesn't automatically mean I could never like a pear. Also can you please explain to me how you can think Yuuri is 100000000% exclusively straight beyond a shadow of a doubt, but then turn around and ship conyuu? Would you be ok with Yuuri "going magically gay" for Conrad? Would you be ok with Yuuri turning out to be bisexual as long as Wolfram wasn't part of the equation? When did I mention that Yuuri has any romantic feelings for Conrad? I'm well aware that he doesn't and never will but if he goes down the gay/bi route then falling in love with someone who doesn't try to rape or abuse him and treats him well is more believable than falling for someone does that so Yuuri with any other character would make more sense than with Wolfram. harmonization said: Then what word would you use for sex without consent? Not to mention Yuuri was still a minor at that point even in Shin Makoku.Your intensity about it is just x10000 to the point of obsession, and it’s pretty off-putting when you go around calling a canonically queer character the f-slur just because you don’t like them, or paint a picture of SA that isn’t there. harmonization said: Fujoshi means a rotten girl which is an apt term for someone who supports gay sexual offenders and glorifies toxic gay relationships. And Yuuri truly is a masochist for tolerating Wolfram's bs right from the beginning despite the slap clearly being Wolfram's fault and there's no real development between the two neither has Wolfram ever apologized for anything he did. Are you saying that I'm not allowed to criticize a character's wrongdoings just because they are queer? What nonsense! You are the one who is so obsessed with Wolfram that you revived your old MAL account and login everyday to check if I have replied and you are calling me obsessive?You use "fujoshi" as a derogatory term a lot to dismiss anyone who appreciates Wolfram's scenes, but tbh I haven’t seen this level of vitriol aimed towards a fictional character since the ancient days of sasunaru fangirls obsessively bashing Sakura for ”getting in the way” of their ship. Kinda like you bashing Yuuri and calling him a masochist for growing closer with Wolfram in the source material and for "not picking Conrad instead, if he was gonna go gay anyway". Maybe you have more in common with fujoshis than you think, with that obsessive mindset? harmonization said: Conrad would never rape Yuuri or overstep his boundaries, they have a very healthy relationship. That ship was only popular among the Japanese fans which seems to have died down in the recent years. I've come across so many Yuuram fans bashing Conrad, they call him pedo because 100 is too old for Yuuri but 82 is just the right age. They call him a groomer even though Conrad has never groomed Yuuri. Yuuram fans even call Conyuu as incest because Conrad is his Godfather but then shipping him with Godfather's blood related brother is suddenly not incest. Calling him a schemer and much more. People used to draw doodles on Conrad's face and post it and call him ugly. One Yuuram fan even said that Conrad forced Yuuri's original soul out of his body and then forced in Julia's while his mother was sleeping. I had a fb page and group for Conrad fans and got so many Wolfram fans going around and reacting with an angry emoji and typing with a broken caps lock literally getting angry at Yuuri even breathing in the same space as Conrad, they did the same with my group, joined in despite not being Conrad fans. Not to mention marumafan writing long walls of text and quoting people who shipped Yuuri with anyone other than Wolfram on tumblr, RedGlassesGirl celebrating that Conrad doesn't return by Yuuri's side in the manga. Also this, this was because of the opening illustration of chapter 97, it wasn't even supposed to be romantic, unfortunately this was the only screenshot I took of the Yuuram fans in action, I don't interact with the fandom anymore:Btw there’s a whole slew of BL-tropes and problematic factors about conyuu as well, which seems to be the most popular ship in the eastern fandom, but I don’t see this concentrated an effort from yuuram fans bashing Conrad? Have you had any experiences with this? harmonization said: Then why did they add Greta to the mix? Why did the bearbees become their children despite Yuuri only wanting a private room to himself? Why was Yuuri living with Wolfram in the discarded ending?The entire engagement is a culture shock gag and comic relief not meant to be taken that seriously btw. It isn't depicted as inherently romantic. harmonization said: But the series is from 2000s. You cannot simply start with a straight character and then turn him gay for the worst character in the series. And besides that, can we please drop the whole "turning gay" rhetoric in the big 2025? harmonization said: It's far too late after 17 volumes, this should have been done in vol. 1 or 2, if the author does it now it will only be for unnecessary drama to get those two together given how the manga went and all her recent short stories from X.1000000000% agree. It would be a lie to say this isn’t exactly how I’d hope their relationship progressed, and my one criteria for shipping them romantically in the future. (Yuuri being given the space to grow up a little more and explore love on his own terms). To be honest I had hopes of the next novel ACTUALLY featuring a dissolution of the engagement since it was hinted Wolfram would distance himself more from Yuuri after the whole ordeal with the boxes. Maybe we’ll find out in another 20 years, maybe we won't. I stand by my stance that Yuuram is a toxic relationship because Wolfram holds Yuuri hostage to an unwanted engagement, doesn't let him choose whom he wants to be with and has even tried to rape him, even if he didn't do it again, once is pretty bad and the whole scene was swept under the rug with no apology from Wolfram, you trying to play mental gymnastics to paint a rainbow colored imagination of Wolfram isn't going to work with me. |
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