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m4rc0 | Sep 20, 2011 5:24 PM
Whoa, a lot since I've been here for the last time.I agree with many things lazlain wrote, but I'm kinda confused. What I got: about the thing with the doctor and the hobo (a very common argument in the internet), I think he was trying to say that even if the most influential group that dictates the aesthetic values say something is good, a random guy won't be wrong when stating it's bad. First, because saying something is good because someone said so is a fallacy. Second, because saying someone is wrong because who that person is (like the hobo), is also a fallacy. And third, because there is almost no obecjtive criteria we can use to evaluate an anime. The only ones are the FPS rate of the animation, the maintenance of the art quality throughout a series and the absence of plot holes. That is too little to evaluate IMO. And since evaluations are mostly subjective, he argues that there's no standard and even though you can say something sucks, that's only your opinion. I can't argue with that. In my opinion, it helps to give arguments to support your opinions. Like saying: I like Naruto because some of the fights are very clever, instead of going narutard and saying it's the best anime of all time. He also argues that not only all evaluations are subjective, but that they are done by comparing titles and thus they depend on the experience of the viewer. I can't argue with that either. That explains why a new fan watches IS and says it's awesome, while a veteran that has seen his share of shounen harem love comedies will think it's lame or will like it for other reasons than the plot. But then the discussion kinda goes into rating standards and other stuff that really contradict what's above. Personally, I think that the problem is in how people discuss. Many try to convince a fan that something this person likes is shit. Or convince a hater that something is good. I don't really want to tell people what they should discuss, how and with which objectives, but since all of the above is true most of these discussions are pointless. I'd rather be discussing the similar character types, reading the insigths other people had when watching anime X and stuff like that. |
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_laz_ | Aug 10, 2011 5:08 AM
@MadDogV2The works are not the prime focus but were used as examples to support our arguments which had something to do with standards, opinions in general, and subjectivity. @DrewTheDude I will clarify my argument which indirectly supports yours. "...eating a bag of nails to a bag of shit" vs. "doctor's opinion vs hobo's opinion" My previous post, "That doesn't mean that I believe it and will act on it accordingly. It must be analyzed based on whatever objective standards is used to determine its accuracy. ", should answer your question about the reliability of the information. I did mention about the possibility of the hobo being right which disproves the doctor's opinion. What I meant is that both opinions are initially unreliable and thus are not true yet. Having proof raises the validity of the opinion. This all depends on how you view all opinions as initially valid or invalid, and reliable or unreliable Of course, if I do this all the time, then I might actually die from cancer. Did I miss anything? |
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DrewTheDude | Aug 6, 2011 9:03 AM
MadDogV2: You've completely missed the point of the argument if you think that's the subject matter. |
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MadDogV2 | Aug 5, 2011 8:52 PM
Please do change the subject, I'd rather discuss the meaning of works, not whether they suck or not. Otherwise you end up with the following: |
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_laz_ | Aug 5, 2011 5:37 AM
@YoungVagabondMAL is confusing at times. 4/10 rating by itself is bad but if reviewed, the overall rating 4/10 is decent. I view it as 5+/10 so, to me, it is average. Shall we end the game then? Can you suggest a new topic that is to your liking? I said in my previous post that I will not ignore an opinion. That doesn't mean that I believe it and will act on it accordingly. It must be analyzed based on whatever objective standards is used to determine its accuracy. We can conclude then that proving anything doesn't necessarily mean that it is undeniably true or false so it is inefficient. Thus, this entire discussion that you actually started by opposing my view of "Nothing is truly good or bad" is a waste of our time. I assume that idiots also don't believe and act accordingly about anything. That's freedom for you. Whether this is all useful and entertaining or not, it is up to you and everyone else in this club. Also, I am the only one defending my arguments and I am out of ideas for the moment. |
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YoungVagabond | Aug 5, 2011 3:37 AM
By the way, I should note that in my MAL ratings, 4/10 is "bad" and 3/10 is "horrible". They're certainly not "average/decent" by any means.Drew's response below was very good, and honestly, I have nothing more to add. One can play these silly semantics/pseudo-philosophical games all they like, but it doesn't lead anywhere interesting or tangible. And I had to laugh at "you can't prove the homeless bum's medical opinion is less accurate than that of the doctor!", because you can't prove anything in real life. (You can only prove anything in math...and even then, about a very limited number of cases) I can't "prove" that the world won't end tomorrow or that Obama isn't actually a space alien from Neptune, but I think anyone who believes that and acts accordingly is a fucking idiot. Pointing out that certain things aren't provable and using that as some kind of defense is a stupid, boring waste of time. |
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_laz_ | Aug 2, 2011 10:09 AM
It seems that it wasn't obvious at all that I'm being philosophical or technical here, not necessarily realistic. Same goes to the subjectivity topic.Loosening standards? Any way you look at it? We evaluate upon comparison using a general objective criteria. The anime doesn't change but our perceptions towards it does. If I LOOK at it, it's average. If You LOOK at it, it's a piece of shit. Since I'm not convincing anyone here about School Days, should we break it down into its simplest factors? Psycho Wars is 7/10 and Mars of Destruction is 10/10? ... ... ... so much for objectivity ......... It hasn't been proven yet so both are not completely reliable. Like I said, the doctor is more accurate therefore the likelihood of his opinion becoming a fact is higher. Why should I outrightly disregard an opinion? If I can't find a hobo as of the moment, does that mean I'm wrong to consider their opinion? Even if i find one, how will I be able to show you? Which definition of hobo are you using anyway? To enjoy something with such flaws means loosening your standards in watching, not evaluating. That means that despite the fact that it is piece of shit, you are still willing to watch every episode? I'm confused with your standards and enjoyment. It is a fallacy but the same logic applies for positive aspects of whatever is being compared. Like I said, I don't care about what you think of me. This evolved from this "Nothing is truly good or bad because of our perception." to whatever the discussion is right now. If it is not hard to enjoy something despite its flaws, then there should be less opposition about whatever I have been psoting and the topic might have been different by now. |
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DrewTheDude | Aug 2, 2011 6:52 AM
Okay, so basically you're saying that we should loosen our standards on something because there's shit that's worse than School Days? So you want me to prefer eating a bag of nails to a bag of shit? That doesn't help your argument at all. Just because there's something worse than School Days doesn't make the anime itself any better. It's still a piece of shit any way you look at it.And truth be told, despite being absolutely horrendous, I did find Pyscho War and Mars of Destruction more enjoyable to watch purely on the basis of how laughably bad they were. With School Days, it was just lack the enjoyment factor of being bad like the previous mentioned animes. To be frank, if you think that the hobo's opinion is at all valid in any way then you are a moron. And what do you mean "it has not been proven yet"? That just because some claim the hobo made is unproven that it means it's instantly a reliable source of information? Yeah, enjoy dying from your cancer pal! And I'd like you to find me ANY hobo who's sane and has a degree in any sort of medical field. As far as standards go, 7 is mine. Though anything I give a 6 is something that had something I liked about it but I don't think is good at all. For instance, I gave Code Geass a 6 because I just loved watching how much of a mess that piece of shit becomes. I think it's not hard to enjoy something despite it's flaws, but to believe those flaws are irrelevant is a fallacy. |
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_laz_ | Aug 1, 2011 3:13 PM
@YoungVagabondYou don't have to remind me of the plot holes and idiotic characters in School Days. I've read your review and no matter how bad they are, the character rating 2/10 at least. The overall rating is 4/10 (same as your enjoyment rating), bad or decent(?) by MAL standards. Come on, they had more characterization than the ones in Mars of Destruction, Psychic Wars, and this piece of shit where logic doesn't exist literally. Using the mentioned objective perspectives, School Days is average at least and decent adaptation from the eroge IF compared to the three pieces of shit. How many titles have you watched from the same genre/s? I'm curious because, by using your standards, everything I've rated 3/10 and below deserves 0 or a negative. About the repetitive gags in Excel Saga, I can use the same excuse for Azumanga Daioh. Both weren't entertaining but stilll offer decent (4+/10) entertainment at some points. You have accepted this opinion as reality so there is no point arguing about this any longer. Forget the realism about White Album. It is just terrible, especially the ending. Made in 2009, it is set in the 1980s where cellphones don't exist so ... all sorts of BS happened. If Makoto is sexiest man alive, then Touya is the sex god. He is a female magnet. I completed this series at the same time I crammed my projects for two days so trust me, not the 6+/10 reviews. White Album < School Days is part of my reality. About the doctor's opinion, I'm just saying that there is a possibility, no matter how small and illogical it sounds, because it has not been proven yet. Don't automatically reject the drunk if it makes sense. Let's put this way so we can agree. I'll drop the subjectivity/objective topic since it's not getting us anywhere. As stated in my about page, my standard is Lain. Since 7/10 means good in MAL, everything in my list with a rating less than 7 is garbage by your standards. If you want to continue this topic, then it's up to you. |
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YoungVagabond | Aug 1, 2011 8:40 AM
"Are you're saying that, despite the small degree of objectivity mixed in with a lot of subjectivity, Excel Saga and School Days are undeniably garbage and no one should bother watch any second of it?"I'm saying that I consider those two garbage. There's no reason to point out that it's an "opinion"; in my world, there are certain views strong enough that they might as well be reality. I will just note that from the more objective perspectives of originality, ingenuity, consistent writing, and relative worth compared to other anime in their genre (and the standard for anime is horrifically bad)...those series two fucking suck. There ARE thousands of plot holes and idiotic characters in School Days. That's completely objective. It IS adapted from a shitty porn game, and is just as bad. Excel Saga IS adapted from a gag manga that uses extremely repetitive jokes. "White Album, not a highschool harem, is the adult version of School Days and is more realistic but with worse characters and logic." (Emphasis mine) Wow. Is that even fucking possible?! "The doctor's opinion about one's ailment is more accurate than the homeless drunk but both are still opinions. There is a small chance that the homeless is right and the doctor is wrong." Well, just like I'm fine with taking that particular chance when I consult my doctor and ignore the homeless drunk, I'm okay with the chance when it comes to judging utterly putrid shit, too. Oh, and speaking of reviews, the following one is pretty nifty! http://myanimelist.net/reviews.php?id=7075 |
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_laz_ | Aug 1, 2011 5:56 AM
Are you're saying that, despite the small degree of objectivity mixed in with a lot of subjectivity, Excel Saga and School Days are undeniably garbage and no one should bother watch any second of it? How is it simply wrong to argue about the positive aspects of the mentioned titles? Then, are the positive reviews about the mentioned titles just wrong? Excel Saga was able to maintain some sort of linear story despite the number of parodies. School Days had a different premise and conclusion from the typical highschool drama/romance/harem. White Album, not a highschool harem, is the adult version of School Days and is more realistic but with worse characters and logic. From my subjective point of view, White Album is garbage and School Days is fine. Should we use an objective criteria for evaluating Excel Saga and School Days? The doctor's opinion about one's ailment is more accurate than the homeless drunk but both are still opinions. There is a small chance that the homeless is right and the doctor is wrong. To be consistent, it still depends. Those are only two titles out of ... who knows? You do realize that FLCL has a harem and parody? Is your criticism towards the genre or the usage? Mention me a highly-rated highschool harem with only loli characters and ecchi (softcore porn). It must be, in your standards, objectively mediocre. Disregarding the story and characters, Kodomo no Jikan, an elementary school harem, fits your bill. I was not expecting ANYONE to respond and/or respect my opinions. This contradicts most of my comments in this club since most of the responses oppose mine. If everything I've said is rubbish and uninteresting, then forget it and change the topic. Heck, delete the comments and kick me out of this club. My primary, if not only, retort is the "opinion" argument, considered to be boring, pedantic, and pointless. |
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YoungVagabond | Jul 31, 2011 10:03 PM
There are certain commonalities that virtually all human beings possess, so when people judge a certain element of a work (like its cinemaphotography), there is a small degree of objectivity mixed in with a lot of subjectivity there. While I normally hate using a populist argument, in this case, it's appropriate; whey else would so many like Avatar's animation (even those that disliked the film) or George Clooney's performance in "Up in the Air", regardless of what they thought of the picture? Anyways, it's besides the point. Excel Saga and School Days are both garbage. You can argue all you want that they're not based on the boring, pedantic point that "everyone's opinion is equally valid!", but it's simply wrong. Is a doctor's opinion on your ailment worth the same as a homeless drunk's with no medical knowledge? After all, he's not sure. He's just making an informed guess. Moreover, if you want your opinions to maintain some level of consistency, enjoying those two crap anime would mean you enjoy dozens upon dozens of mediocre works in both the high school harem (softcore loli porn) and parody (Japanese failure at humor) anime genres. That's your call, but don't expect anyone to respect them as informed and interesting. After all, it's your freedom to think whatever you want, and it's my freedom to call such opinions rubbish. If your only retort has nothing to do with the series itself, but rather the "opinion" argument, well then, by your own logic, there's no point in discussing anything with you at all, is there? |
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_laz_ | Jul 31, 2011 9:29 PM
I agree on your definition and arguments about objectivity but my argument is about our basis for such. What is good animation? Is it absolutely detrimental to have any repeated animation sequences, static backgrounds, and/or similar physicality of characters? Is art quality defined by dynamic animation, detailed backgrounds, unique character designs?It still depends on the overall presentation although the similarities has made this standard generally acceptable. It is measurable only with a frame of reference which you have provided as an example. What I meant by purely garbage is no matter what criteria is used, it is still bad. This is the truth that must be accepted despite one's personal beliefs. I wasn't clear on the 6/10 for that was my passing mark. By MAL standards, it means fine or fair so this can be recommended to others. Well, that's my understanding of the two adjectives describing 6/10. To make things simpler, average rating of 5/10 (average/mediocre) is a pass. If the anime is rated below that, then it is bad and must be flamed and forgotten. All those involved in the making of this anime shall be punished. The rating cannot be challenged because of the compromise resulting from the collective contribution of the group in determining its value. As such, any attempts to disprove the unjust evaluation of the bad title is futile. The same logic is applied for good animes. In a way, this is objective. There is a standard for quality that the anime industry should follow to satisfy this group and the entire community should accept. The group has specific tastes towards simplicity, comedy, highschool romance, lively animation with sparkles, pop music, lots of action. Dead Leaves and FLCL can pass but Lain won't. The rating is objective, technically speaking. Based on this logic, is Lain bad? You can see from my profile pic and username my liking for Lain but, in the group's POV, I'm objectively wrong. I can say that it is just my opinion and am not trying prove them wrong but the value of the title was proven otherwise and is now considered a truth. There are people who care about the smallest details, live in idiocy, and accept opinions as truths. It's not that simple. |
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naikou | Jul 31, 2011 6:51 PM
There are objective qualities you can rate an anime by, though. For instance, I can look at an anime and see that it has many repeated animation sequences, and that the backgrounds are all static and unmoving, that all of the characters look very similar.Then I can compare it with an anime which has very dynamic animation, intimately detailed backgrounds, unique character designs, etc. It is easy to see that this anime has objectively better animation quality than the first one. "Objective" for the purpose of discussing anime, might be a synonym for "measurable". Can I measure how much emotional impact one anime has versus another? Not really, not in any way that someone else can fully understand, so that is subjective. But I can measure how good the animation is, in certain circumstances, so that is an objective quality. lazlain said: That... doesn't make any sense. What are you trying to argue here? Is it "Some people rate those anime higher than 6/10, therefore they are not bad anime"?None of the mentioned titles are purely garbage. If not, then why would some rate any title from the anime relations less than 6/10? Or are you trying to somehow relate this to the objective vs subjective argument by saying, "Anime ratings are subjective, therefore you can't say that any anime is garbage" (in which case what does your 6/10 statement have to do with anything)? Even if your premise is true, your conclusion doesn't follow. I could claim any anime I like is garbage, I'm just not objectively right. But who cares whether I'm objectively right? I'm simply stating an opinion. I'm not trying to prove to you that Excel Saga is bad by calling it garbage. From my subjective point of view, it is garbage, and who are you to say otherwise? |
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_laz_ | Jul 31, 2011 3:35 PM
Fine. Let's stick to enjoyment and evaluation. Contrary to your belief, both are subjective. The objective critieria is based on a specific bias that is generally accepted. Just because some reactions are better/more reasonable/mature doesn't change the fact that they're subjective. Yes, I will put anything on any sentence if necessary, even my favourites. None of the mentioned titles are purely garbage. If not, then why would some rate any title from the anime relations less than 6/10? I watched FLCL a long time ago and gave it 9/10 but if you want, I'll troll you about its flaws after a rewatch. Excel Saga virtually parodies most, if not all, of the genres. School Days is not your typical drama/romance/harem fare but suffers from similar flaws to Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica. They are garbage to you but are just fine to me. |
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YoungVagabond | Jul 30, 2011 11:37 AM
Yeah, I'm not even sure what this guy is arguing anymore.Is movie enjoyment/evaluation purely subjective? I don't think is is; I believe it's partly objective, part subjective. But even assuming he's right, certain subjective reactions are better/more reasonable/mature/consistent than others. For example, I don't understand why anyone would insult an excellent series like FLCL by putting it in the same sentence as garbage like School Days and Excel Saga... |
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DrewTheDude | Jul 30, 2011 6:59 AM
Personally, I think that Termination:Salvation is ten times better than if you interpret it as a conflict over toothpaste and that all the robots featured in the movie use to have the purpose of cleaning people's teeth. I mean, how else can you explain why all the human's in that movie had such perfect white teeth in the post-apocalyptic world? |
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naikou | Jul 29, 2011 7:26 PM
Uh... if you pretend that No Country for Old Men was created by an Iranian (for example), does that mean you'd be okay to rate it higher than Transformers?Er wait, I think I'm getting lost in this Alice-in-Wonderland logic. What's going on? |
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_laz_ | Jul 28, 2011 2:48 PM
@KaiserpingvinI will edit that statement without deleting my comments. I am one of the few that will not rate No Country for Old Men SIGNIFICANTLY higher than any Transformers movie for I generally dislike live movies. I have lost faith in North American movies especially since after watching the new Captain America movie. __________________________________________________ This is my personal bias. I apologize for the confusion. What I meant by significantly higher is rating something Lucky Star 1/10 and Neon Genesis Evangelion 10/10 without second thoughts. |