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Metroid_Ex said: MarthX said: Ignoring the red truth is like ignoring the rules of a game. You can't play if you don't follow the rules. The rule is anything said in red is the truth. Your explanations cannot contradict the red. Fail, one must ignore part of the red text for the red text to hold any meaning. Therefor the red text is not complete truth. try again Why do you think you need to ignore the red text for there to be any meaning? And I never said the red was the complete truth. It's only as true as it says. |
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PlatinumHawke said: people are still people whether the be dead or alive. regardless of who dies the amount of people on the island has been 18.Metroid_Ex said: Sorry, try again Alright. Spoilers for a point further ahead than the anime. Don't click or quote me. Metroid_Ex said: try again, one cannot make several statements that are in complete contradiction with each other and still call the truth. kaena: It's not said anywhere beyond where we are now, but: |
MettyOct 29, 2009 3:49 PM
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| -Oh my god! A level above Endless Eight! Endless Nine! Take that Haruhi! Battler>God! In fact...his anti-magical resistance level! It's OVER 9000! -Yay Blushing Beato! -Ha! Knew it was Eva....okay actually no I didn't. I had no freaking clue what was going on anymore. -IT'S A TRAP! Anyway, hello random redhead. -Hahahahaha! Oh my god! They actually pulled off a "Tsundere" trap! They actually did it. "You start out by acting 'tsun' and then switch over to 'dere'" Truer words were never spoken girl! I cannot believe they just did that. This just became a very memorable anime for me. -I was waiting for Beato to just come out with a "Just as planned!" -Let me guess. This Ange person. She's the real main character like Rika was isn't she? |
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MarthX said: by complete truth i mean that all the red statements are all true and this is clearly not possible, therefore the red text is not always truth as I stated earlierMetroid_Ex said: MarthX said: Ignoring the red truth is like ignoring the rules of a game. You can't play if you don't follow the rules. The rule is anything said in red is the truth. Your explanations cannot contradict the red. Fail, one must ignore part of the red text for the red text to hold any meaning. Therefor the red text is not complete truth. try again Why do you think you need to ignore the red text for there to be any meaning? And I never said the red was the complete truth. It's only as true as it says. |
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PlatinumHawke said: The red text denies the possibility of anyone else (out of the 15 mentioned) being not dead. And at no point has Ryukishi07 backed himself into an unescapeable corner with regards to the the mysteries of the murders. Even with the Web of Red there are numerous outs. Notice how one thing was most definitely not confirmed in that huge mass of red text laid out by EVA Beatrice. No. The red text states that individual characters died, not when. So it is totally possible that someone thought to be dead was, in fact hanging on by a thread and died of whatever wound after killing Nanjo. |
| There is no contradiction. That red mystery has an answer and the answer lies in what the red truth doesn't say opposed to what it does say. The red truth is only as true as it says. If no details are given then only what's stated is true. If there's details you assume that aren't a part of the red then they're not confirmed. |
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PlatinumHawke said: Metroid_Ex said: Sorry, try again Alright. Spoilers for a point further ahead than the anime. Don't click or quote me. On Beato's trolling, I honestly think she's just good and putting on a tough face and wanted to reap her reward. It wasn't all a lie. Of course, some of it was a plan. But I believe some of it was honest. |
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| Mindfuck. |
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| I came back, after thinking about eva for a whole day (lol) only to read a whole bunch of red texts denying almost anything I might have thought.... :-( anyway, seems like people still doubting the red words... well, I cant really think of anything either, only some minor stuffs like, 1). those red words didnt mention any specific time point or 2).are the names really referring to the persons we know? besides that, I am pretty much at my wits end, lol.... ps: come to think of it, we never seen how Nanjo really died... maybe the trick is there, like: those red words say its not those 3 people who killed nanjo, and other 15 people are dead, but it doesnt mention when or where nanjo really died and we never seen his body either. so, is it possible that he didnt die on that island but was killed somewhere else? hhhhmmm....ok have to confess myself, seems unlikely~ ps2: forgot to write what I actually wanted to write in the first place: i've been thinking about this arc for a while now, and I come to the conclusion, the culprit cant possibly be eva (which is the opposite of what I thought ealier...) the way natsuhi and her husband died was too suspicious. (I had this thought ealier, and even pointed out too, but didnt think much of it) the way those 2 people were killed, was like hanging a "I did it!" plate over eva's face. there wasnt anyone else besides Eva and victims at that time. If eva really murdered those 2, which seems very likely, she wouldnt act the way she did, which is: she returned to the others as if nothing happened and even went searching for the corpses with them as well. Thats not what the murderer would have done~ oh, again forgot the conclusion i wanted to prove: the whole arc might have been a troll, not only among the witches, but among those 18 humans as well ~ someone (I might even have specific name in my mind) set up a trap for eva after killing 6 people in the first twillight and continue to kill others but leaving hints that it is no more the first suspect anymore.. |
vinesageOct 29, 2009 4:46 PM
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| What's going to happen in the meta world now... So Beatrice fails to get Battler to sign the contract and Ange appears, did it just turn from a oral game to violence? |
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| WHO IS THE NEW CHARACTER ~ I THOUGHT SHE IS THE SIS OF BATTLER?! |
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Phoenix012 said: We want episode 19!!!! And fast!!!! Ep19 won't explain anything. Ep19 starts the next arc. |
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MarthX said: Extra information Instead of only listing what was omitted, here's all Eva-Beatrice's red truth at the end. Battler is neither the culprit or an accomplice. By this, we can establish a perfect alibi for Eva There are no more than 18 people on this island No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game Kinzo is dead Krauss is dead Natsuhi is dead Hideyoshi is dead George is dead Rudolf is dead Kyrie is dead Rosa is dead Maria is dead Genji is dead Shannon is dead Kanon is dead Gohda is dead Kumasawa is dead Nanjo is dead The 15 people mentioned are dead Battler is alive Eva is alive Jessica is alive Eva was with you the whole time. So committing a crime was impossible for her. Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit. He wasn't forging an alibi for her, and he took the possibility that she was the culprit into account, watching her actions carefully. No chance existed for her to do anything suspicious! In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servants' room Ushiromiya Jessica has not committed murder She was not involved with Nanjo's murder Her eyes were completely blocked. It's impossible for her to carry out a murder like that Neither Eva nor Battler killed Nanjo, nor were they involved The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica Jessica's eyes were completely blocked, and murder was impossible for her No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo This also applies to Battler and Eva neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo Nanjo was killed by another person Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him! The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him The red only tells the truth Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it! Right before his eyes! Wait a minute.... hasn't she just denied magic right there? =/ She said it was definitely a human, i.e. not a witch.. |
| Great twist (for anime-only watchers) and probably the best ep yet I wish they'll air 2 eps a week, I want another one now |
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| For Bernkastel to call Ange, Ange-Beatrice, is something interesting to hear for the future. |
MarthX said: Extra information There are no more than 18 people on this island Also, this seems like a vague term. 18 people dead? 18 people alive? 18 in total? So if you threw a corpse into the sea and someone else came onto the island you'd still have 18? Just a crazy thought I had.... ^^;; Building on that Kind of like, someone was already dead from the begininng maybe. Let's say someone was killed at the beginning, then his/her place was taken by the imposter (let's assume maybe someone was a great imitator or had a twin). Then they were disposed of, i.e. thrown into the sea, transported away etc. It would then hold true they are dead e.g Krauss died (could be anyone else), but the red text never mentioned when or how (mainly when). So if the imposter faked his/her death with the original off the island he/she could continue killing while the original is stated as killed in red and no problem with only 18 on the island. |
kittybellOct 29, 2009 7:29 PM
PsychFreak said: seeing who you still don't see the problem with the red text I am obviously paying more attention then you. The problem with a lot of you is that you cant accept that the author made a mistake in his writing. OmegaDenmad said: The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it! EVAtrice, you moron, your side is supposed to be the "witches did it" side! x____X There's a screencap that parodies that from the VN, I can't seem to find it though. Anyways, like I said earlier, this episode was quite rushed, but even that couldn't stop it from being a pretty damn good episode. I'm still waiting for more reactions to how some people were "trolled" by Beatrice. It still shocks me how people are still not trusting the red though. The red truth tells the truth and only the truth, if you ignore the red, you ignore the whole point of the game and that's nonsense. While the red may not tell the complete truth, it still lays out the basic truth. It is your job to find possible loopholes in the red text and what not to get around the mystery it presents you. If you're still ignoring the red at this point, then you're just wasting your time, it's your loss. |
MettyOct 29, 2009 7:30 PM
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PsychFreak said: if you ignore the red It's not that crazy considering this entire show has become about what in front of your eyes can be counted as canon and important, and what is just fluff for Ryukishi to troll you with. Anti-fantasy? Anti-mystery? Puh. You'd might as well be entirely nihilistic about it all at this point. |
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| The probability is higher of the translation being mistaken (which I think it's not their fault really since there are plays on words and stuff that needs more context). The red text is the truth when it's said, period. There will be proof of this later, but I don't think it's a spoiler really: if you don't believe such a basic rule of Umineko, it makes everything pointless to discuss. |
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| skimming threw the thread I get the general jist of everyone's arguments. For one I still have big doubts that 15 people are dead and 3 are alive. Someone or maybe all of them are faking death. Second, there's multiple hints that there's not just one or two killers but possibly many and even accidental deaths. With the way the story is going I would not be surprised if these people where just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Which brings me to the red text. Many of the quotes are "x was not involved in y's murder" this leads me to believe that just because x was not involved doesn't mean x didn't murder at all. There's still the possibility that x could have killed someone else at a later time either on purpose or accident. Battler's gonna have to have Beato say something like "None of the 18, have at any time, killed anyone or will kill anyone". I'm sure if he asked Beato to say that she'd refuse. Third, was that Eva in the hospital talking to Battler's sister? If so then her hostility makes her very suspicious. It would be to obvious to say Eva did the "killings" but it would make more sense that she's the only one that survived the mass murder between family members, which would make sense since she's nuts now and had the personality of the "witch" version of her self. Never the less this arc felt like a waste. The only real thing I found enjoyable was Beato and Battler warming up to each other. I'm still hoping that they end up together in the end. |
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| Preview got filtered and spread like fire in boards, somehow... |
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OmegaDenmad said: Preview got filtered and spread like fire in boards, somehow... Ugh I can't wait! |
YuenSan said: For Bernkastel to call Ange, Ange-Beatrice, is something interesting to hear for the future. They seem to sure love tossing the title of "Beatrice" around, treating it like a hot potato. x_x |
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| That was a damn good episode, i really liked it, and I am sure glad that this part wasn't spoiled for me. |
| Oh yeah. Is there a reason why 13 years later, Eva looks like an old woman of 100 when she should be in her 50s (assuming she was around 30-40 on the island)? |
| you people are making the anime way more confusing Especially with the "Red truth" debates |
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PsychFreak said: DeathfireD said: For one I still have big doubts that 15 people are dead and 3 are alive. Someone or maybe all of them are faking death. Battler is neither the culprit or an accomplice. There are no more than 18 people on this island Kinzo is dead Krauss is dead Natsuhi is dead Hideyoshi is dead George is dead Rudolf is dead Kyrie is dead Rosa is dead Maria is dead Genji is dead Shannon is dead Kanon is dead Gohda is dead Kumasawa is dead Nanjo is dead The 15 people mentioned are dead Battler is alive Eva is alive Jessica is alive 15 people were definitely dead and only 3 people were left alive at the time the red text was stated. DeathfireD said: Third, was that Eva in the hospital talking to Battler's sister? If so then her hostility makes her very suspicious. In the VN, that scene was expanded upon much more, it says after all the murders on the island happened, she survived, and was the only one left besides Ange with Ushiromiya blood. As you already know, she found the gold, and she pretty much gained headship of the Ushiromiya family. But as time went by through the years she was overcome with stress due to constant accuse and suspicions of her being the culprit of the murders on Rokkenjima thinking she done it to take all of the money. She took care of Ange seeing as her parents were dead and Eva pretty much shoved all her hatred and stress onto her, which in exchange over time Ange did the same. Eva eventually before dying gave the headship of the Ushiromiya family to her so Ange could be burden with the same hate. Like I've mentioned before, I have doubts about the red writing. Beato has contradicted her self before. And even if it was true there's still the possibility that they've been killing each other or have been dieing due to other reasons before the above red was stated. So it was Eva? If she was the winner then that means the rest of them should be alive doesn't it? It is a reward at the end of the witches epitaph right? Also you say she has an incurable illness. Could this be something the rest of the family had as well ;)? |
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| Anyone care to take a look at my theory (on previous page) and see if it's possible? Or VN readers confirm that it hasn't been proven otherwise. |
| I just want to point out that I was talked about Huntington's a few weeks ago. The disease could be some ridiculous adaptation of it. |
| Hope this helps providing a little more information on her illness: I think I understand what Metroid was talking about regarding the red truth. I might be wrong on this: Beatrice has twisted her words around before, regarding the red truth, to the point where Ronove stopped it. It was still declared in red as the truth, but not as exactly Battler requested of her. Though I'm beginning to wonder if in EVA-Beatrice's case, the truth that she acknowledged, is as much as she knows herself. That leaves a room for possibility that something went wrong. EVA did not have the power to see everything that occurred on the game board like Battler and Beatrice do. Beato sneaking around the board was unknown to her for a short while, like flying with George from the guest house to the mansion. (Sorry if that wasn't typed too clearly.) |
SaraiiOct 29, 2009 9:55 PM
noteDhero said: I just want to point out that I was talked about Huntington's a few weeks ago. The disease could be some ridiculous adaptation of it. Eva's disease may have nothing to do with Rokkenjima. She could just catch it after the incident. |
PsychFreak said: OmegaDenmad said: The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it! EVAtrice, you moron, your side is supposed to be the "witches did it" side! x____X There's a screencap that parodies that from the VN, I can't seem to find it though Ah yes, here we are:     |
| @4saken Huntington's is genetic. You don't catch it. That's why I ranked everyone by their crazy. The Ushiroromiya matriarch has been non-existent in a show totally about this family. That's strange. |
kittybell said: Anyone care to take a look at my theory (on previous page) and see if it's possible? Or VN readers confirm that it hasn't been proven otherwise. Sure that could work but you have to take into account several factors 1. If it's a family member most if not all of them should be in on it since it should be pretty noticeable (though Battler may still be fooled) 2. All red text that specifically states a person doing something no dead person could be doing would mean that they are who they say they are ex. in arc 3 (this arc) Beato says in red " Rosa and Maria died. The cause of death was as Nanjo diagnosed" This means that except for the high unlikelihood of an exactly the same death, Rosa=Rosa and Maria=Maria. Another example would be in arc 2 after Kumasawa and Nanjo disappear Beato says in red. "No one exists in this room except all of you. All of you refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon. " |
| Battlers over 9000 magical defense was crushed by the power of |
| Battler's OVER 9000 and Ange is Koolaid Man This was actually pretty good. |
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| Preview of episode 19: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlTIOWpI5ys |
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| Every time I was expecting a line, I find it was cut... Pretty disappointing. And the lack of emotion because of said lack of lines made me sad inside. This episode would have been perfect if it was an hour (45 mins) :/ And everyone! Red = Truth! Whether the whole truth is stated or not is a different story though. There has yet to be a contradiction in that regard, and there are enough possibilities with the truths already stated, whether you think any given theory is stupid or not. |
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