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| Another good epd, I liked the final scene. |
MarthX said: rabbitpoets said: 4saken_762 said: rabbitpoets said: 4saken_762 said: Beatrice said in red that there are only 5 master keys. Hmm, but when Beatrice tells Battler there's no duplicate keys, that text wasn't in red. Kumasama tells us there's only one key to Jessica's room, but it's possible that she's mistaken or unaware of another. But later Beatrice said: "The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's key or the keys held by each servant, one per servant." in red. I wonder what the circumstances for text being red and not red are then. Is all non-red text not necessarily true? Beatrice chooses when to use red but she can only say things that are true in red. If something isn't red then it may or may not be true. If something is red then it's true without question. Ok, maybe I'm getting too nipicky (although I feel like the whole point of the mystery is to be nipicky), but the first time Beatrice tells Battler there's no duplicate keys, that text wasn't in red. We can assume that there may be a duplicate key, correct? But later she says the only way to lock the door is with Jessica's key or the 5 keys held by each servant in red. So this is assumed to be true. We could then assume that there is a duplicate key, but except that it can't lock the door. So it's possible that after killing Jessica, the culprit took her key and slipped the non-functioning duplicate into her pocket. I guess that would be my next thought if I was Battler. It'd be an easy thing to test, although it doesn't look like they tested Jessica's key. On a separate note, I keep reading that we shouldn't necessarily believe our eyes when we see all the crazy, magical things happening. That it might be Beatrice playing tricks. If that's the case, why would we assume that Beatrice's red words are actual truth without any evidence of it? |
| Well if you doubt the red truth then you have nothing to go on. No way to narrow down possible theories to find the truth. |
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| I suppose that's true, but even now, if Beatrice chooses to not respond to some of Battler's questions and statements, how could Battler come to a conclusive conclusion? The best he could do would still only be a guess. |
| Beatrice didn't introduce the red truth to help Battler. It's her weapon. She uses it to smash his theories and corner him. She uses it when it's to her advantage. |
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| Hmm, so Battler would need a weapon of his own to truly prove his case... |
| Maybe it would be good to keep a thread with all the red truth so far, like the Umineko wiki does. Specially because that wiki has all of them so far, so checking it for any non-spoiled user would be suicidal. Though I'm not sure if Beatrice has said the same and all of them in the anime. Hmmm. |
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| But even though it is her weapon, it can be used against her. Eliminating theories to corner him also pushes him closer to the truth. OmegaDenmad said: Maybe it would be good to keep a thread with all the red truth so far, like the Umineko wiki does. Specially because that wiki has all of them so far, so checking it for any non-spoiled user would be suicidal. Though I'm not sure if Beatrice has said the same and all of them in the anime. Hmmm. http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=85382 |
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| Can't see the spoilers there xD. Oh well, I guess it's an obvious idea to keep track, since it's pretty tricky stuff. |
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wakka9ca said: I laughed hard at Battler's lame excuse of not suspecting the servants: "because they had a happy face when cooking and like to make people happy" :/ *facepalm What Beatrice says as the red truth is the only information she gives. Any information she does not reveal or any future information that will disprove the entire red truth thing have as much possibility of existing as not existing. Anything is now possible and nothing is far fetched if explained correctly.... Again, Beatrice is playing too much.... She basically proved her red text or magic is a lie when she said "The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's key or the keys held by each servant. One per servant. When the door is locked, it's impossible to enter or exit through it by any means". So basically she unintentionally said no one can enter this room without a key. Not even people that know magic or witchcraft. Now if Battler picks up on this he can prove magic is a lie. However she may turn it around on him and say her red text has been a lie the whole time. If that happens then Battler can re-use his past theory's and she has no way to dismiss them.But then again that line may also be a translation error. She may have really said "it's impossible to enter or exit through it by normal means". I guess we'll find out in the future episodes :). |
^)^ DeathfireD ^)^ Anime Alliance P2P Network *OPEN FOR NEW MEMBERS* |
When the door is locked, it's impossible to enter or exit through it by any means. So basically she unintentionally said no one can enter this room without a key. Not even people that know magic or witchcraft. For the record, there are plenty of other ways magic could be used to open the door, go through walls, ect. Also question everything you see in the show. It's all I'm gonna say. |
| That line in the translation by Witch Hunt should be the equivalent of this one When locked, entry is not possible by any means Hm. Pretty sure any mention of magic in red (if it was possible) would bring the "kicking the chessboard" problem. |
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| man .. that was seriously bloody |
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MarthX said: But my question is, how did Shanon find out so fast that that injured kanon is fake? When Kanon said it was Rosa she didnt say anything but suddenly ran out, closed door behind her, then went down to the basement looking for spiderweb only to use it as soon as she returned? I think there is something wrong ... Dayan said: Butterflies don't like spider webs.but i didn't understood the spider web thing... I think its because... maybe.... 1. producer neglected it. or... 2. she trusts her brother to be a person who would never give Rosa (his mistress) away even if Rosa really is the murderer. or... 3. she knew it for sure that Kanon was already dead by that point, which means she is one of the murderers? somehow I find 3. very interesting if one comes to the conclusion that Genji is most probably involved in the killings. Then again, if I consider Genji to be the suspect, it somehow always comes to the final conclusion that Rosa is as well involved even though she already "proved" herself to be innocent. ps: I dont consider any kind of magic. edit: after i read the post myself, i have to say the whole thing was fake. it is much easier to suggest that shanon didnt run down to basement at first place. |
vinesageAug 28, 2009 4:51 AM
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| so the next episode and episode after next one are still Episode II 10. Episode II-V accept 11. Episode II-VI back rank mate so i assume, since the word "mate" is in the title, that it will be the last one of the second arc? because i seriously dont want to think how do they want to pack arcs III and IV into 15 episodes, if this series really is gonna be regular 26... as for actual episode 9 it was okay, but nothing really happened (after the first half of the episode i was like "huh? what? why is it half already, it just started") Battler is so full of fail :haha: Kanon had red eyes. His scene was lovely btw ;] |
| I know that there has been a few posts about this, and while I realise that Meta-Battler and Piece-Battler are 2 different people, How come it is after Piece-Battler proves that Kanon can't of been suspct. Beatrice congratulations Meta-Battler on his argument, does this mean that Meta-Battler chooses what Piece-Battler says or something around those lines? So, meaning, that Meta-Battler proves his theories through Piece-Battler, or something like that? Because, that would make the most sense to me... Good Episode, as expected and can't wait for the next one~ |
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Neilikki said: so the next episode and episode after next one are still Episode II 10. Episode II-V accept 11. Episode II-VI back rank mate so i assume, since the word "mate" is in the title, that it will be the last one of the second arc? because i seriously dont want to think how do they want to pack arcs III and IV into 15 episodes, if this series really is gonna be regular 26... as for actual episode 9 it was okay, but nothing really happened (after the first half of the episode i was like "huh? what? why is it half already, it just started") Battler is so full of fail :haha: Kanon had red eyes. His scene was lovely btw ;] 11 will end Turn Banquet will most likely be 7 episodes and Alliance will be 8. |
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| From someone who does play the vn. I really enjoyed this episode. I thought it was really well done and super interesting. I don't understand how Shannon knew he was a fake... you would think she would trust her brother. hm? Suspicious. |
 Where there is no imagination there is no horror. || Arthur Conan Doyle || Happy Halloween! |
RetroElectro said: Elika said: And Shannon was quite smart to know how to kick the ass of Fake!Kanon. It wasn't mentioned in the anime, but Kumasawa was the one who told Shannon about the spiderwebs. Actually, that should be mentioned in the next episode, if we're going by the VN. I think it was Gohda that asked why a spider's web, and Shannon explains that Kumasawa told her about it. |
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11 will end Turn Banquet will most likely be 7 episodes and Alliance will be 8. yes its easy to conclude....im just saying its kinda little... |
moldy_tomato said: Use the Spoiler tags! You're spoiling the next ep. Even if it's only a small spoiler. It might not even be mentioned in the next episode. Besides, people were asking about it, and I answered the question. It's not that much of a plot related spoiled. But next time, I'll be more conscientious. |
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| I liked this episode than the last one, and thank goodness for censoring. >.< And it's nice to see that this time more people are thanking the censoring than blasting it. |
(Almost) 13 years on MAL! ()__() (='.'=) (")_(") |
| Episode 9 as intense. |
     #Feitoism @ irc.rizon.net - the official IRC channel for Fate Testarossa.  |
Rufusruferson said: I know that there has been a few posts about this, and while I realise that Meta-Battler and Piece-Battler are 2 different people, How come it is after Piece-Battler proves that Kanon can't of been suspct. Beatrice congratulations Meta-Battler on his argument, does this mean that Meta-Battler chooses what Piece-Battler says or something around those lines? So, meaning, that Meta-Battler proves his theories through Piece-Battler, or something like that? Because, that would make the most sense to me... Good Episode, as expected and can't wait for the next one~ I think it's just because they have the same personality and way of thinking, so in the same situation they'll have the same argument. |
Shroomie said: Eh, I still wish it wasn't censored. It sort of takes away from the show, I mean, what did everyone expect? Of course it's going to have gruesome scenes, deal with it. But other than that, I feel like the anime is leaving out important tid bits from the VN, which I have not personally played. I only say this because there are some things (like the spiderwebs and random Kanon!swordarm) that randomly appear and aren't quite well explained. Perhaps they will be elaborated upon later, I don't know. I hope so. Although the murder mystery is still keeping my attention, I'm starting to lose interest in the show. Solely because of Battler and Beatrice's magic-or-no-magic battle. I mean, the dude is in some sort of ghost form, watching himself and the other guests in the mansion. How can he deny that Beatrice possesses no magic?? It makes no sense to me. It's like trying to explain to someone about evolution and showing proof and still having the person deny it's existence. And the entire "every truth I say will be shown in red writing" trick has so many loopholes, I wouldn't know where to start. Guh...hopefully, it all ends up making sense somehow and not seeming completely ridiculous. The magic sword and spiderweb thing was just as sudden in the VN. They were both explained but not well. Going by fantasy explanation, Kinzo made Kanon with magic (furniture) so that's why he has a magic sword. Dark Kanon being destroyed by the spiderweb because butterflies hate spiderwebs. When it disappeared, it broke into butterflies just like everything else of Beatrice's You're misunderstanding Battler and Beatrice's game. Battler denies magic and witches in the real world. The time stop gray world isn't the real world, that's what fans like to call the "meta world". It's a separate world. This isn't explained in the visual novel either but it's made obvious. Seeing magic and witches in the meta world isn't proof that they exist in the real world. Battler also believes that Beatrice is only a half-existence. She only exists in the meta world because people believe she exists. If he can prove that magic and witches had nothing to do with the murders then the illusion that Beatrice was responsible will disappear and Beatrice will disappear from the meta world. All this was explained in the anime. Pay more attention. About the red truth. If she says something in red it's the absolute truth. But that doesn't mean things not in red aren't the truth. Beatrice chooses when to use red. For example Beatrice says There are only 5 master keys. then later repeats what she said, there's only 5 master keys. But she doesn't use red. There's no need to. It's already been established that it's the absolute truth. Having her speak in red every time she says something true would be dumb. |
LunarEmeraldAug 28, 2009 4:18 PM
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| Thought the episode was pretty interesting, as usual. That "Kanon" who showed up meant to divide the Ushiromiya/servant factions but Shannon's quick thinking did well for them and was probably the highlight of the episode for me. |
TirMcDohl said: DeathfireD said: wakka9ca said: I laughed hard at Battler's lame excuse of not suspecting the servants: "because they had a happy face when cooking and like to make people happy" :/ *facepalm What Beatrice says as the red truth is the only information she gives. Any information she does not reveal or any future information that will disprove the entire red truth thing have as much possibility of existing as not existing. Anything is now possible and nothing is far fetched if explained correctly.... Again, Beatrice is playing too much.... She basically proved her red text or magic is a lie when she said "The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's key or the keys held by each servant. One per servant. When the door is locked, it's impossible to enter or exit through it by any means". So basically she unintentionally said no one can enter this room without a key. Not even people that know magic or witchcraft. Now if Battler picks up on this he can prove magic is a lie. However she may turn it around on him and say her red text has been a lie the whole time. If that happens then Battler can re-use his past theory's and she has no way to dismiss them.But then again that line may also be a translation error. She may have really said "it's impossible to enter or exit through it by normal means". I guess we'll find out in the future episodes :). She didn't prove her red text is a lie by not mentioning people with magic being able to enter the door. The point is, witchcraft could ignore any of the red text if it exists. The red text only applies to rules humans are bound by. I think one of the lines around here in the VN had her saying some red text, followed by some plain text with "...except of course, for witches!". The way I understood it in episode 6 was that the red text can only show up if what she's saying is true (which she says). Battler even asks her when the rule is started "why cant you just say these crimes where carried out by magic in red" and she responds with "I'm competing against you in a game. I plan to watch you struggle until you give up on your own." which doesn't rule out the possibility that she can say "This was done by magic" and have non red text show up as a result of a lie. This is why any magic related question or a question that would lead to a magic related question has been refused by her so far. In this case when she says "When the door is locked, it's impossible to enter or exit through it by any means" Battler can do one of two things. 1) Point out that if it's impossible to enter or exit by "any means" then that means magic can't enter through the door when it's locked either. or 2) Point out that if nothing can enter or exit through the door but she keeps claiming magic can, then the red words are a lie therefor everything she's said in red up to this point is questionable. Both choices are double edged swords though. They show signs that he would at least accept the idea of magic being a choice which is something he's refused to do up to this point and is obviously something Beatrice is trying to get out of him. I suspect if this was really translated right, might actually be a planted answer to try and get Battler to accept magic as a possible choice. Just my theory though, I could be wrong. |
| ^)^ DeathfireD ^)^ Anime Alliance P2P Network *OPEN FOR NEW MEMBERS* |
| Magic is exempt from the red truth. If she says something can't be done then she means it can't be done without magic. Magic is magic because it doesn't have limitations. Magic can do anything. |
LunarEmeraldAug 28, 2009 4:31 PM
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MarthX said: Magic is exempt from the red truth. If she says something can't be done then she means it can't be done without magic. Magic is magic because it doesn't have limitations. Magic can do anything. She doesn't say that in the anime so your point holds no ground. FYI. If you believe in magic then you should know it has has limitations just like everything else. |
| ^)^ DeathfireD ^)^ Anime Alliance P2P Network *OPEN FOR NEW MEMBERS* |
DeathfireD said: MarthX said: Magic is exempt from the red truth. If she says something can't be done then she means it can't be done without magic. Magic is magic because it doesn't have limitations. Magic can do anything. She doesn't say that in the anime so your point holds no ground. FYI. If you believe in magic then you should know it has has limitations just like everything else. A line from the VN about the first twilight When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit!! As long as you can't use magic, right...? |
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hiddenmoonlight said: kanon...was topless... *fangirl faint* lol yea I'm with you there! let's hope there will be more in the future :) |
- Noblesse Oblige -  And I'm saying a prayer for  the desperate heart's tonight |
| much better than the last episode |
| Ugh more censoring... |
DeathfireD said: She basically proved her red text or magic is a lie when she said "The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's key or the keys held by each servant. One per servant. When the door is locked, it's impossible to enter or exit through it by any means". So basically she unintentionally said no one can enter this room without a key. Not even people that know magic or witchcraft. Now if Battler picks up on this he can prove magic is a lie. However she may turn it around on him and say her red text has been a lie the whole time. If that happens then Battler can re-use his past theory's and she has no way to dismiss them.But then again that line may also be a translation error. She may have really said "it's impossible to enter or exit through it by normal means". I guess we'll find out in the future episodes :). I see no problem with that: - She used magic to unlock/lock the door. - She used the key to lock the door, then used magic to move the key into the room. |
| I could barely watch Kanon dig out his wound even though it was censored. ._. |
| if we die we'll meet again in valhalla... |
| What the hell? Im confused. Kanooooooooooooon ;__________; Kanon digging in his wound was great. |
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| after rereading the red lines and thinking a bit I ended up with the idea that it's quite obvious the door to Jessica's room was unlocked all the time. Everyone was so stunned with the blood message on the door and Maria's explanation.. that nobody even tried opening it without the key. They just accepted it as being locked. Gouda just knocked once or twice and then opened the door with the key. Also, I guess many of you didn't notice but Gouda turned the key clockwise to open the door while Jessica did vice versa when opening the Beatrice's room. That could mean the keys can be turned either side to open the door, and that is actually likely enough to be true. Or that could also mean that Gouda intentionally turned it clockwise to hide the fact it was opened all the time. I.e. as if it was his task to convince others the door was indeed locked. And that makes him an accomplice to Beatrice's crimes. Although I don't wanna blame him or any other at this point of time and space, but I guess he'd have been of use for Beatrice. But what really bothers me is why would Beatrice said "The window is also locked from the inside." as long as she mentioned earlier that "This door is the only way in or out.". What's the whole point of speaking about windows when the door's the only way? If only this is not a translation error and the window cannot be used as a way out, I don't see any partuclar reason for her to speak about it in red. Anyway, I think the door was unlocked from the very moment Jessica opened it herself. It also explains why Beatrice refused to confirm in red that the door was locked by one of the master keys. |
| I got it! Kanon was killed outside of the room and dragged away somewhere! Meanwhile, Jessica realized she had Kanon's key, unlocked the door for him, and then the murderer came in! Everything makes sense now! |
NeloDeath said: Much better episode than episode 8 but still the series has turned into constant battles of logic with Battler and Beatrice. Not that that is a bad thing but still a bit slow at times. The mysteries of who killed who are getting more interesting though imo. Umineko basically is constant battles of logic between them. Also ep2 is the easiest out of them. The following ones are really hard sometimes. Even ep1 is more difficult |
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