Anyone find Sakura Matou annoying or It just me? [Spoilers]

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Way to downplay everything.

We can also say that all there is to Shirou is his wish to be a hero.
We can also say that all there is to Rin is that she is a tsundere prodigy mags that fails when it matters.

Imagine saying to a victim of abuse that they were wrong to give up when anything they did was monitored and could die in any moment.

Imagine blaming the victim.

Just wow.

Dec 16, 2019 8:50 AM

#56

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pxiao said:
Her focus in both the movies and the visual novel is her history and love for Shirou. She has no desires that aren't about Shirou, EVERY bit of her personality is just MY LIFE SUCKS, I'M HORNY AND I LOVE SHIROU.

There's "being abandoned by your family and wanting to be loved by them", for one.

That's what the train scene is about, we know that Sakura has complicated feelings towards her sister, she wants to be able to call her "Sister" instead of pretending they're only classmates, she wants to be accepted by her as family, and yet, there are moments when she shows a different side towards Rin.

When Shinji threw her the bottle towards the end of the second movie, she wanted to believe that he was acting like nice brother towards her.

pxiao said:
And Sakura never truly develops BECAUSE SHE'S NOT ENOUGH OF A CHARACTER TO DEVELOP. Lets say her "heroic" idea to face Zouken was development ... how did she change from it? Sakura's issue was never she's too scared to do anything because her inability to do anything after Shirou learns of Sakura's history in Heaven's Feel WASN'T FEAR

So, you aren't going to count her development from the beginning of the first movie?

A normal girl is sent to an abusive family that mentally and physically damages her, she has given up on living a happy life and becomes like a doll as a method to cope, decided that her life will just be used up by someone else eventually, and becomes an obedient, but emotionless looking slave.
Until she sees a guy around her age trying to do something that seems to be impossible for him, if it's impossible, then why would he bother? and yet, he just kept trying for a long time.

Shirou was very different from her, he didn't give up straight away even though the jump looks impossible, he tried and kept struggling, and that gets transferred into Sakura over time.

She was afraid of Zouken himself and her daily life with Shirou being robbed from her. If she opposed him, he could kill her at any moment, and Sakura has admitted that she didn't have enough courage to kill herself before, despite everything that Zouken did to her, she was still afraid of death and wanted to live.

Despite that, she starts to get in Zouken's way at the end of the first movie, she sent Rider to protect Shirou from True Assassin and later worked up the courage to confront Zouken, she knows that it's most likely a suicidal move, but Shirou and her have been pushed into a corner, and to protect him from more suffering, she had no other options.

Also, she denied Shinji instead of letting him do whatever he wants at the end of the second movie.

pxiao said:

pxiao said:
Sakura isn't active either so you can't say the story follows her either like Fate and UBW did for Saber and Rin respectively.

She's less active in the war itself, but there are many scenes where the focus is on her, what's going through her mind, and her relationship with Shirou, especially in the VN. She definitely doesn't have the screen time of a side character so far, despite the first movie cutting out many scenes from the VN.

Dec 16, 2019 8:09 PM

#57

pxiao

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ssjokg said:
Way to downplay everything.

We can also say that all there is to Shirou is his wish to be a hero.
We can also say that all there is to Rin is that she is a tsundere prodigy mags that fails when it matters.

Imagine saying to a victim of abuse that they were wrong to give up when anything they did was monitored and could die in any moment.

Imagine blaming the victim.

Just wow.

First I'm just going to say one post as we all know this is pointless argument, we won't change our minds but I need to air out my feelings to get over them and hopefully figure why exactly I dislike Sakura as a character.

I'm not attacking Sakura for being a victim of abuse, no one deserves to go through what she did, I didn't intend to make it seem as if I was attacking Sakura for being scared. My issue with Sakura is she's not really a character but a plot device. Sakura has a sad backstory but after that's revealed, she just becomes Shirou's love interest. There is nothing wrong with Sakura being the love interest but her issue is unlike with Saber or Rin, that is essentially ALL she becomes. She might have some other aspects like her relationship with Rin or Rider but that's far more on their sides than her and she's really just "Shirou's love interest that needs saving" unlike Saber who in the Fate route was dealing with her guilt of failing to save Britain in addition to her growing feelings for Shirou. In the VN and the second movie Sakura never truly changes as a person and while she becomes Dark Sakura that's more due to Angra Mayra corrupting her. While those dark emotions are her own, the fact it takes a CURSE to force her to show it, undermines the idea of it being a development on her part and not like it revealed anything new about her. All it did reveal was that she's bitter against Rin and that she hated that she was sent away which was revealed LONG AGO. And before she becomes Dark Sakura, Sakura's only real emotions are jealously and feeling sad that she's making Shirou suffer, essentially all her thoughts are about Shirou. The vn or the movies never say that's a bad thing thus her character revolves around Shirou which is never good writing.

The real issue of Sakura's character is her backstory is just there and doesn't really affect her decisions besides explain why she loves Shirou and that becomes the crux of her character. That she loves Shirou. Backstory is important but what makes Shirou, Rin and Saber/Artoria interesting characters is their backstory is meant to EXPLAIN their characters and how they would act in adversary. Shirou wants to be a hero, Rin wants to be a perfect mage, Saber wants to undo her actions. In UBW and HF Shirou and Rin are faced with situations that force them to question their own beliefs. In UBW Archer and each other act as that catalyst. Archer's brutal but efficient methods and the fact he's future Shirou forces Shirou to see how hypocritical his ideals truly are and wonder if he should continue them while Rin keeps pointing out how suicidal and broken Shirou is as a person which makes him question himself more. Similarly Archer's memories of his past and his determination to win at all cost makes Rin question how brutal she can be, which is added to the fact that Rin keeps protecting Shirou both because she's too nice to actually want to kill him and later on, she likes him essentially forcing her to see how she can't be the mask she puts up as the perfect mage. HF continues this when Shirou is forced to choose between his ideals and Sakura when Sakura is causing the death of innocent people and Rin is again forced to face the fact she has to be heartless against her little sister who she still loves no matter how much she lies to herself. That's what I mean by them having character.

Sakura's backstory translates to she's desperate for love which means ALL her actions and thoughts are focused on Shirou. In the VN and movies you can see that when she barely interacts with anyone that isn't Shirou and those interactions are more on the other characters' feelings than her. Rider's relationship with Sakura is meant to show both her twisted nature and her kind nature as she's loyal to Sakura as it reminds her too much of her backstory but she will do ANYTHING to protect Sakura even sacrifice innocent people. Simply put while she is scared of Zouken that never truly comes up as she rarely talks or thinks of Zouken in the VN or movies, it's just about Shirou. She's hesitant to go to Shirou in movie two after she accidentally impaled him with her magic wasn't because she's scared of disobeying Zouken, she thinks she doesn't deserve Shirou. Zouken's influence is just a background element to explain why she never left than actually influenced her behavior in the story proper. And even then the VN and movie shows that Sakura was broken but fell for Shirou thus she tried to make some changes, so her deciding to face Zouken is simply an extension of that, not development.

The issue many, though not all, people do Sakura's character is she completely revolves around Shirou with HF more revealing how shitty her life is than any real personality changes. As Fate and UBW long revealed she loves Shirou with HF early on revealing she would try to change for him to love her. And that's the same issue she has in HF, all of her actions are just because she's desperate for him to love her with some minor details of her sprinkled here and there but 90% of her character is she's in love with Shirou. Her backstory isn't used to develop her personality so much as to make you feel sorry for her which many feel as manipulative. Especially for those that played the VN and would have chose to have killed Sakura to protect Fuyuki but are called a cold monster for it. And even her fighting against Shinji is about she's Shirou's than regaining a sense of self-value, Sakura is never a character in HF's, she's just Shirou's sad love interest that you have to save. And some people are bored as that's ALL she is.

Dec 17, 2019 1:23 PM

#58

YossaRedMage

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I'm not the biggest fan of Sakura's character. And, while they're all masterpieces, I generally prefer the Fate and UBW routes to HF. But I don't know about these criticisms.

Sakura's problem as a character is that she is just a punching bag we are meant to feel sorry for. Don't get me wrong, I felt sorry for her, but nothing else. I could go on and on about the layers to Rin and Saber, but Sakura... I mean, fucked up shit happened to her and now she's fucked up. That gets you most of the way with describing her character.

She is supposed to be angsty and kind of creepy in HF. If you don't like that about her character... well I mean I'm not sure one is supposed to "like" it exactly. It's just how she is.

But whiny? Considering what she went though, she's one of the least whiny characters ever lol. She's always like "nah it's all good *SMILE*"...

EDIT: @pxiao Yeah pretty much. Although I wouldn't say personally I dislike her character. I think thematically the whole "deredere gone corrupted with all the evils of the world" motif is interesting. But she's not got the depth of the other two main girls. By the way, you could say the same thing about Rin in UBW, that it was more about Shirou than Rin (maybe even Archer > Shirou > Rin). The only route where the heroine takes center stage over Shirou is Fate, and even then one could say it's more 50/50.

YossaRedMageDec 17, 2019 1:31 PM

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Dec 18, 2019 3:37 AM

#59

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pxiao said:

ssjokg said:
Way to downplay everything.

We can also say that all there is to Shirou is his wish to be a hero.
We can also say that all there is to Rin is that she is a tsundere prodigy mags that fails when it matters.

Imagine saying to a victim of abuse that they were wrong to give up when anything they did was monitored and could die in any moment.

Imagine blaming the victim.

Just wow.

First I'm just going to say one post as we all know this is pointless argument, we won't change our minds but I need to air out my feelings to get over them and hopefully figure why exactly I dislike Sakura as a character.

Well then there is nothing to really say here then.

3 things tho.

1. Even if her character is all about her feelings about Shirou(which isnt true anyway)that is still her character. Why does it matter if she only has this to deal with or another myriad of problems?
Her feelings for Rin are equally important if not more important than her love for Shirou. The VN shows us this. It isnt Shirou that "wakes her up", it is Rin. All Shirou did in the entire Route was show her affection and love. That didnt stop her from turning Dark.
Rin brought her back to the light.
She doesnt need Shirou to have a happy life.She needs both him and Rin.The VN tells us that.

If you find that boring or you just dont care that is on you, not her.

2. Do you need the VN to spell it out for you that one character, their emotions/ideals, or a situation is bad?
Even if you need that the first person that knows and tells us that this is wrong is Sakura herself. Then Shirou. And Rin..... And Kirei.

3. Dark Sakura is still Sakura or just half of her. Even if it's AM that pushed her on the surface those are still her feelings, her worldview.
Sakura's character is complete only when you take into account both.
If Archer was some random dude that just happened to have the same dream as Shirou most of what he said wouldnt matter to us or Shirou. What he says and what he does have weight because he once was Shirou. Sakura is the same. You cant look only at vanilla Sakura or only at Dark.
That Sakura had enough self restrain to not go nuts on everyone before AM is still part of her character.

Jan 17, 2020 4:05 PM

#60

xenosys

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Aug 2019

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Not really.

Given the circumstances and what's she had to go through growing up (being driven out of her own family, ostracised, only to then be molested by her adopted brother, and experimented on by her adopted grandfather), I think her character is perfectly reasonable, but a bit too quiet and reserved for me to consider her anything other than a friend.

Shinji on the other hand, is an absolute weapon and deserved his fate.

In saying that, i do prefer Rin and Saber.

Feb 7, 2020 11:30 AM

#61

mizukasa

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I actually find her very pitiful. I seriously feel sorry for he. Her tragic backstory and how it was used to develop and depict her insanity actually made sense and didn't feel forced. The scenes of her day-dreaming about a wonderland while in reality, eating corpses and bathing in its blood sent chills down my spine as it shows her state of mind. I've seen many characters who have been written to be creepy or insane and none of them can compare to Sakura and as far as these kinds of characters goes, I very much like her. I did feel happy when Shirou confirmed his feelings for her and thought she deserved it. But don't misunderstand; I also think it's quite interesting/fun seeing her being mind-broken and suffer. I was rooting for Shinji at the end there but he was too noisy. Had he just shut up, he would've had his way.

I've seen many comments about her being annoying and such but hating her because of such shallow reasons is a bit stupid and it shows that some people doesn't even try to understand the character more and dig deeper than what's being shown.

Illya on the other hand is far cuter when she's all quiet and serious compared to her playful side. Is it just me?

mizukasaFeb 7, 2020 12:02 PM

Mar 17, 2020 9:34 PM

#62

Destinesia

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Yes, finally someone said it! Specially the last movie, it was a pain watching her whine all the time over her "Sen...pai". Her scenes were painfully slow to watch and to be honest, I couldn't care less what happen to her; the character felt flat compared to the others.

Mar 17, 2020 9:40 PM

#63

zrdb

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I have absolutely no problems with her at all-we'll see if that changes in the 3rd and final movie.

Life Is Short But Intense.

Mar 20, 2020 11:08 AM

#64

Nick123asdf

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It’s okay if people don’t like her. It just feels wrong, when people hate her so much, like she’s a bad character

Apr 7, 2020 3:49 AM

#65

TruongfromVN

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I feel like she’s a character for you to empathize rather than a character for you to like. Also i find it kinda weird when just bc she afraid to lose Shirou she walked into his room at night and then procceded to...y’know... do that. I guess that seeing her E-Cups isn’t my type of fan service

Apr 7, 2020 5:10 AM

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TruongfromVN said:
I feel like she’s a character for you to empathize rather than a character for you to like. Also i find it kinda weird when just bc she afraid to lose Shirou she walked into his room at night and then procceded to...y’know... do that. I guess that seeing her E-Cups isn’t my type of fan service

It is weird for someone to want to have sex with the person they like?

Apr 7, 2020 5:18 AM

#67

TruongfromVN

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ssjokg said:

TruongfromVN said:
I feel like she’s a character for you to empathize rather than a character for you to like. Also i find it kinda weird when just bc she afraid to lose Shirou she walked into his room at night and then procceded to...y’know... do that. I guess that seeing her E-Cups isn’t my type of fan service

It is weird for someone to want to have sex with the person they like?

I just feel like that isn’t something a character like Sakura would do.

Apr 7, 2020 5:22 AM

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TruongfromVN said:

ssjokg said:

It is weird for someone to want to have sex with the person they like?

I just feel like that isn’t something a character like Sakura would do.

What do you mean a character like her?

Apr 7, 2020 5:45 AM

#69

TruongfromVN

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ssjokg said:

TruongfromVN said:

I just feel like that isn’t something a character like Sakura would do.

What do you mean a character like her?

I don’t think she would be the one who suggest having sex

Apr 7, 2020 5:57 AM

#70

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i havent watched the heavens feels movies but ive seen bits and pieces from the vn and read on her character.... but like isn't that the point??

i mean, if a character has gone through that kind of abuse and mentality then it shouldn't be surprising she doesn't really have a neurotypical personality. and i know some people are like "i know this but i dont care" but..... how else do you want her to act.

also, i dont think they're meant to have a happy relationship. shirou literally sacrifices everything for the sake of Sakura being happy. it was never meant to be a healthy relationship.

Apr 7, 2020 6:00 AM

#71

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nousername19 said:
I havent watched this movie nor do I plan to but from what I've read of the VN, she is so damn annoying. Just her voice pisses me off. I hate meek characters like her who let everyone walk all over them. Infinitely worse than Rin and Saber.

"let everyone walk all over them" didn't she literally devour and kill said people

Apr 7, 2020 7:37 AM

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fuckgendo said:
shirou literally sacrifices everything for the sake of Sakura being happy. it was never meant to be a healthy relationship.

Every relationship has that at different degrees.

And Shirou scarified an unhealthy obsession after coming face to face with reality and decided to aim his "heroism" towards the one person he loves the most.

I cant say if the end result, as a relationship, is better than one with Rin or with Saber, but it definitely is a better life than any other outcome.

fuckgendo said:

nousername19 said:
I havent watched this movie nor do I plan to but from what I've read of the VN, she is so damn annoying. Just her voice pisses me off. I hate meek characters like her who let everyone walk all over them. Infinitely worse than Rin and Saber.

"let everyone walk all over them" didn't she literally devour and kill said people

Well till the end of the second movie she only willingly killed one person. But yeah, I am not sure how a girl standing up to a Servant like Saber or making the decision to end it all while in bad condition is meek.

Apr 7, 2020 8:43 AM

#73

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ssjokg said:

fuckgendo said:
shirou literally sacrifices everything for the sake of Sakura being happy. it was never meant to be a healthy relationship.

Every relationship has that at different degrees.

And Shirou scarified an unhealthy obsession after coming face to face with reality and decided to aim his "heroism" towards the one person he loves the most.

I cant say if the end result, as a relationship, is better than one with Rin or with Saber, but it definitely is a better life than any other outcome.

fuckgendo said:

"let everyone walk all over them" didn't she literally devour and kill said people

Well till the end of the second movie she only willingly killed one person. But yeah, I am not sure how a girl standing up to a Servant like Saber or making the decision to end it all while in bad condition is meek.

from what ive read, their happy ending still ends up costing tons of innocent lives. and i guess it all depends on people's views of whether shirou giving up his ideologies and beliefs to be with the girl you love. some might call that romantic, some think it's toxic.

also didn't she kill gilgamesh AND shinji??? or was that like her "dark self" that she has no control over. i still need to watch the fate films so my knowledge is a bit iffy.

Apr 7, 2020 8:54 AM

#74

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fuckgendo said:
also didn't she kill gilgamesh AND shinji??? or was that like her "dark self" that she has no control over. i still need to watch the fate films so my knowledge is a bit iffy.

She didn't kill Gil willingly, she was walking around unconscious and had no control of her actions.

Apr 7, 2020 9:00 AM

#75

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Shayon said:

fuckgendo said:
also didn't she kill gilgamesh AND shinji??? or was that like her "dark self" that she has no control over. i still need to watch the fate films so my knowledge is a bit iffy.

She didn't kill Gil willingly, she was walking around unconscious and had no control of her actions.

Well thats not really true. Something that was skipped is that Sakura knew to a degree what she was doing and enjoying it. Obviously part of that is due to Angra's influence but its wasn't no control.

Apr 7, 2020 9:03 AM

#76

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Shayon said:

fuckgendo said:
also didn't she kill gilgamesh AND shinji??? or was that like her "dark self" that she has no control over. i still need to watch the fate films so my knowledge is a bit iffy.

She didn't kill Gil willingly, she was walking around unconscious and had no control of her actions.

oof. fair enough tho, as much as i love gil he's a bit of a prick in the og fate series.
(also ur yuki avatar is giving me flashbacks)

Apr 7, 2020 9:05 AM

#77

Zinrei_16

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Dieshouri said:

Well thats not really true. Something that was skipped is that Sakura knew to a degree what she was doing and enjoying it. Obviously part of that is due to Angra's influence but its wasn't no control.

She thought she was just having nightmares

Apr 7, 2020 9:08 AM

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fuckgendo said:

ssjokg said:

Every relationship has that at different degrees.

And Shirou scarified an unhealthy obsession after coming face to face with reality and decided to aim his "heroism" towards the one person he loves the most.

I cant say if the end result, as a relationship, is better than one with Rin or with Saber, but it definitely is a better life than any other outcome.

Well till the end of the second movie she only willingly killed one person. But yeah, I am not sure how a girl standing up to a Servant like Saber or making the decision to end it all while in bad condition is meek.

from what ive read, their happy ending still ends up costing tons of innocent lives. and i guess it all depends on people's views of whether shirou giving up his ideologies and beliefs to be with the girl you love. some might call that romantic, some think it's toxic.

also didn't she kill gilgamesh AND shinji??? or was that like her "dark self" that she has no control over. i still need to watch the fate films so my knowledge is a bit iffy.

On the flip side killing her turns Shirou's into Kiritsugu v2, makes Rin wanna use the Grail to revive her and it all leads to Shirou killing everyone. Sure he has to live with his "crimes"(even tho I dont believe it is a crime that they didnt want to kill her) but it is far better than turning into a machine.

And look back at UBW. The ideologies he has are just an excuse.All he wants is to feel happy but thanks to Kiritsugu he believes he can do that only by helping others/being a hero.
HF doesnt deal with the hypocrisy of his ideal to that extend since we as viewers/readers already know that.It instead gives him a second way to feel like a normal human.
Now he has to face reality(unlike UBW when he had to face the ideal itself) and pick between a fake ideal and someone he loves. Thankfully we know how both options end.

It is a horny path for both of them even if they survive the war but surely a lot better than anything else.

Sakura gets control of her Shadow only when she kills Shinji. Before that the Shadow would act on its own but still based on her -negative- feelings.

When Sakura goes Dark the random attacks in the city actually stop.

Apr 7, 2020 9:10 AM

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Dieshouri said:

Shayon said:

She didn't kill Gil willingly, she was walking around unconscious and had no control of her actions.

Well thats not really true. Something that was skipped is that Sakura knew to a degree what she was doing and enjoying it. Obviously part of that is due to Angra's influence but its wasn't no control.

She has no control .She thinks they are nightmares. Even if she started to enjoy them she didnt actually have control of what she/her shadow was doing.

Apr 7, 2020 9:11 AM

#80

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Zinrei_16 said:

Dieshouri said:

Well thats not really true. Something that was skipped is that Sakura knew to a degree what she was doing and enjoying it. Obviously part of that is due to Angra's influence but its wasn't no control.

She thought she was just having nightmares

But she says that she probably knew all along and was enjoying it.

Apr 7, 2020 9:13 AM

#81

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ssjokg said:

Dieshouri said:

Well thats not really true. Something that was skipped is that Sakura knew to a degree what she was doing and enjoying it. Obviously part of that is due to Angra's influence but its wasn't no control.

She has no control .She thinks they are nightmares. Even if she started to enjoy them she didnt actually have control of what she/her shadow was doing.

I mean she did though to a degree. The shadow is not a completely separate entity from Sakura part of it is her repressed personality and desires. Hence how it attacks Rin whenever it sees her. Obviously again this is mainly Angra's influence but I think saying she has no part in it takes away from Sakura's character.

Apr 7, 2020 9:16 AM

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Dieshouri said:

Zinrei_16 said:

She thought she was just having nightmares

But she says that she probably knew all along and was enjoying it.

This is the same girl that blacks out and considers breaking a hand or two of her senpai so that he cant leave the house, before coming to her sense.

She isnt in control of herself even when she is awake.

Even if she knew it was real and even if she enjoyed it later she still could do nothing about it.

Apr 7, 2020 9:17 AM

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Dieshouri said:

ssjokg said:

She has no control .She thinks they are nightmares. Even if she started to enjoy them she didnt actually have control of what she/her shadow was doing.

I mean she did though to a degree. The shadow is not a completely separate entity from Sakura part of it is her repressed personality and desires. Hence how it attacks Rin whenever it sees her. Obviously again this is mainly Angra's influence but I think saying she has no part in it takes away from Sakura's character.

I am not saying that.

The Shadow is obviously lead on by her amplified negative feelings. But it is nowhere near saying that she has control over it.

I mean, she wouldnt try to BLAST Shirou in the forest if she had actual control.

Apr 7, 2020 9:24 AM

#84

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ssjokg said:

Dieshouri said:

I mean she did though to a degree. The shadow is not a completely separate entity from Sakura part of it is her repressed personality and desires. Hence how it attacks Rin whenever it sees her. Obviously again this is mainly Angra's influence but I think saying she has no part in it takes away from Sakura's character.

I am not saying that.

The Shadow is obviously lead on by her amplified negative feelings. But it is nowhere near saying that she has control over it.

I mean, she wouldnt try to BLAST Shirou in the forest if she had actual control.

I think in the forest is a good example for how she did have a BIT of control. The Shadow sees Rin doesn't think about anything else and launches its mega laser. After its sees Shirou and what happened to him it immediately retreats and we get the scene of Sakura watching the scene that we're supposed to think is happening through Rider but is really the Shadow.

Apr 7, 2020 9:27 AM

#85

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Dieshouri said:

Shayon said:

She didn't kill Gil willingly, she was walking around unconscious and had no control of her actions.

Well thats not really true. Something that was skipped is that Sakura knew to a degree what she was doing and enjoying it. Obviously part of that is due to Angra's influence but its wasn't no control.

There are some differences between the movie and VN here. But even in the VN, she thought she was having a nightmare.

But anyway, yeah. The shadow does amplify Sakura's negative feelings and brings them to the surface. Imagine if you had thoughts about hurting someone, but you're still in control, so you don't allow yourself to do that.

And now there's something that is really pushing those thoughts and tries to make them a reality, and you think these moments where you're killing people are only dreams.

How much of the blame should you take if they're reality? I guess the answer is different depending on the person.

Apr 7, 2020 9:36 AM

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20055

Dieshouri said:

ssjokg said:

I am not saying that.

The Shadow is obviously lead on by her amplified negative feelings. But it is nowhere near saying that she has control over it.

I mean, she wouldnt try to BLAST Shirou in the forest if she had actual control.

I think in the forest is a good example for how she did have a BIT of control. The Shadow sees Rin doesn't think about anything else and launches its mega laser. After its sees Shirou and what happened to him it immediately retreats and we get the scene of Sakura watching the scene that we're supposed to think is happening through Rider but is really the Shadow.

It is clear from the scene that she wasnt in control. Before she goes into trance again she realizes that this happened only because she had that idea before.
And it is also clear that Shirou survived due to luck not because she could calculate how to attack them.

You can say that her subconscious is in control of the Shadow but that is all. Dark Sakura has conscious control .

Apr 7, 2020 9:41 AM

#87

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Mar 2019

188

Shayon said:

Dieshouri said:

Well thats not really true. Something that was skipped is that Sakura knew to a degree what she was doing and enjoying it. Obviously part of that is due to Angra's influence but its wasn't no control.

There are some differences between the movie and VN here. But even in the VN, she thought she was having a nightmare.

But anyway, yeah. The shadow does amplify Sakura's negative feelings and brings them to the surface. Imagine if you had thoughts about hurting someone, but you're still in control, so you don't allow yourself to do that.

And now there's something that is really pushing those thoughts and tries to make them a reality, and you think these moments where you're killing people are only dreams.

How much of the blame should you take if they're reality? I guess the answer is different depending on the person.

Yep there is no perfect answer and the vast majority of blame clearly goes to the literal incarnation of evil inside the person but Sakura herself and even Shirou think that she holds some responsibility.

The debate around that is part of what makes HF interesting to talk about though so I think that saying Sakura is a pure innocent girl that just needs to be rescued is much less interesting.

Apr 7, 2020 9:48 AM

#88

Offline

Mar 2019

188

ssjokg said:

Dieshouri said:

I think in the forest is a good example for how she did have a BIT of control. The Shadow sees Rin doesn't think about anything else and launches its mega laser. After its sees Shirou and what happened to him it immediately retreats and we get the scene of Sakura watching the scene that we're supposed to think is happening through Rider but is really the Shadow.

It is clear from the scene that she wasnt in control. Before she goes into trance again she realizes that this happened only because she had that idea before.
And it is also clear that Shirou survived due to luck not because she could calculate how to attack them.

You can say that her subconscious is in control of the Shadow but that is all. Dark Sakura has conscious control .

I don't think she calculated it at all she just attacked in Rin and Illya's direction and Shirou got caught in it.

Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying. And how much should you be held accountable for actions of the subconscious as its still you. Dark Sakura after all is the one who actually tears into people about what Sakura's really thinking about.

Just wanna say again that I'm arguing that she shares a tiny tiny part of blame that is due to her horrible upbringing and circumstances, she's absolutely a victim in all this. But I think that that small part makes HF a lot more interesting.

Apr 7, 2020 9:51 AM

#89

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

Offline

Aug 2009

20055

Dieshouri said:

Shayon said:

There are some differences between the movie and VN here. But even in the VN, she thought she was having a nightmare.

But anyway, yeah. The shadow does amplify Sakura's negative feelings and brings them to the surface. Imagine if you had thoughts about hurting someone, but you're still in control, so you don't allow yourself to do that.

And now there's something that is really pushing those thoughts and tries to make them a reality, and you think these moments where you're killing people are only dreams.

How much of the blame should you take if they're reality? I guess the answer is different depending on the person.

Yep there is no perfect answer and the vast majority of blame clearly goes to the literal incarnation of evil inside the person but Sakura herself and even Shirou think that she holds some responsibility.

The debate around that is part of what makes HF interesting to talk about though so I think that saying Sakura is a pure innocent girl that just needs to be rescued is much less interesting.

Well obviously she would feel responsible.
Those are her feelings.AM amplified or not, it was her that couldnt suppress them and as we see at the end

.

Ofc there are many reasons why she could come to her sense at that time and why she didnt do it earlier(thanks Rin for making things worse) but that doesnt change her actions.... or lack of that.

Apr 8, 2020 3:24 AM

#90

Eikonomachia

Offline

Nov 2019

592

Honestly, she could go to burn in hell. I enjoyed the Mind of Steel ending way more than i should.

EikonomachiaApr 8, 2020 3:30 AM

sneed's feed and seed

formerly chuck's

May 19, 2020 2:16 PM

#91

CataOrShane

Offline

May 2009

219

You don't have to like Sakura but if you don't feel sympathy for her tragic life, then I don't even want to breathe the same oxygen that you do.

My favourite girl is Rin and I'll always root for her happiness but ain't no way do I want Sakura's misery and I will be greatly upset if that happens at the end of these movies.

Gaming channel just for fun: https://www.youtube.com/cataorshane

May 25, 2020 2:05 AM

#92

Abhinandan2002

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Apr 2020

148

I don't like sakura matou.Because shakira's
Story is dark she is sult,she don't tolerate shiro and Rin closeness.I know she has tragic past.but her current personality and behaviour is worst.

I hope shiro bad dream come true in upcoming movie.
I believe if shiro kill sakura is much better then shiro ends up sakura
Clearly I hope in next series sakura is killed by shiro

Abhinandan2002May 25, 2020 7:27 AM

May 25, 2020 2:45 AM

#93

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

Offline

Aug 2009

20055

Abhinandan2002 said:
I don't like sakura matou.Because shakira's
Story is dark she is sultry,she don't tolerate shiro and Rin closeness.I know she has tragic past.but her current personality and behaviour is worst.

I hope shiro bad dream come true in upcoming movie.
I believe if shiro kill sakura is much better then shiro ends up sakura
Clearly I hope in next series sakura is killed by shiro

Wow. Imagine missing an entire character in 3 different series.

May 25, 2020 7:39 AM

#94

Abhinandan2002

Offline

Apr 2020

148

ssjokg said:

Abhinandan2002 said:
I don't like sakura matou.Because shakira's
Story is dark she is sultry,she don't tolerate shiro and Rin closeness.I know she has tragic past.but her current personality and behaviour is worst.

I hope shiro bad dream come true in upcoming movie.
I believe if shiro kill sakura is much better then shiro ends up sakura
Clearly I hope in next series sakura is killed by shiro

Wow. Imagine missing an entire character in 3 different series.

Sakura is main heroine in heaven's feel is no problem but main problem is she is sult and he had sex with his brother shinji in her willingly.
That irritates me in this story .

May 25, 2020 7:57 AM

#95

Dull_Lull

Offline

Jul 2013

4690

Abhinandan2002 said:

ssjokg said:

Wow. Imagine missing an entire character in 3 different series.

Sakura is main heroine in heaven's feel is no problem but main problem is she is sult and he had sex with his brother shinji in her willingly.
That irritates me in this story .

Are you okay? Are you sure we're reading the same VN?

May 25, 2020 8:01 AM

#96

Dull_Lull

Offline

Jul 2013

4690

Not everyone has to like Sakura. You're free to like Seiba, Rin or the other girls but to outright say she's a terrible character cuz she felt jealous, a NORMAL emotion any human would feel, or because she went crazy in HF or even worse cuz worm stuff is just plain wrong and disregards every context that went to her character. I hate it when people judge characters superficially. I also blame the Fate fandom itself for perpetuating this Sakura hate bandwagon for the longest time now.

May 25, 2020 8:13 AM

#97

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

Offline

Aug 2009

20055

Abhinandan2002 said:

ssjokg said:

Wow. Imagine missing an entire character in 3 different series.

Sakura is main heroine in heaven's feel is no problem but main problem is she is sult and he had sex with his brother shinji in her willingly.
That irritates me in this story .

Sakura has a character to show un in the other routes as well.

Why is she a slut? Because she masturbates? Because she was raped by worms since she was 5? Because she was raped by her step brother? Because she actually had sex with her loved one?

Being raped isnt "had sex willingly".

what the actual fuck.

May 25, 2020 8:20 AM

#98

Offline

Oct 2014

2837

Abhinandan2002 said:
I don't like sakura matou.Because shakira's
Story is dark she is sult

This thread keeps getting better.

Zouken's crest worms sexually violate their target, she was thrown into a nest of these things as a child, and has been exposed to them more and more over time, that sort of thing would leave mental scars, I shouldn't have to say that.

On top of that, the crest worm implanted in her body heightens her sexual desires, especially when she lacks mana, and if she fails to give it mana from an external source, it would suck her dry and she would die. When she was new in the Matou family, she no longer had any self value and felt bad for stealing Shinji's position as the Matou heir, so she let Shinji do what he wants with her.

She rejected Shinji and defied Zouken for the first time in the these movies, feel free to use the word "slut" but her character and situation can't be summarized with it.

May 25, 2020 7:10 PM

#99

Aardwolf94

Offline

Oct 2017

1190

She and Shirou both suck ass. The story of HF actually had potential and would be good with two better leads.

I'm rooting for Kirei!

May 25, 2020 9:02 PM

#100