actuallyaadhi said: I used the word entertain in a very broad sense. like if a piece of art satisfies its viewer in any way at all, it is entertaining. Animation requires a huge amount of work and I think its okay to assume when some studio produces an animation on the large scale, they expect the viewers to be satisfied in some way or the other. I don't think the meaning we give to the word entertain changes anything to my argument. Also now you are saying that satisfying the expectations of studios is what makes an anime good, which still sounds a lot like an objective criterion to me. The whole "anime is subjective but popular=good" reasoning is just difficult to take seriously. Btw I dislike the term "overrated" too. I can still see why someone would use it if they were talking about a show that everybody praised for doing something it actually doesn't really do though. |
thizlasJul 5, 2022 12:02 AM
thizlas said: actuallyaadhi said: I used the word entertain in a very broad sense. like if a piece of art satisfies its viewer in any way at all, it is entertaining. Animation requires a huge amount of work and I think its okay to assume when some studio produces an animation on the large scale, they expect the viewers to be satisfied in some way or the other. I don't think the meaning we give to the word entertain changes anything to my argument. Also now you are saying that satisfying the expectations of studios is what makes an anime good, which still sounds a lot like an objective criterion to me. The whole "anime is subjective but popular=good reasoning" is just difficult to take seriously. Btw I dislike the term "overrated" too. I can still see why someone would use it if they were talking about a show that everybody praised for doing something it actually doesn't really do though. 1.A huge part of this argument depends on the meaning we give to these words. 2.I didnt say satisfying the expectaion of studios, I said "satisfying viewers" 3. satisfying viewers isnt an objective criterion because there is a lot of subjectivity about "how" an anime satisfies its viewers. 4.I hate evangelion but a huge portion of people loved the series. Personally I didnt like it but, since most others enjoyed it, we can call it a "good series". |
raisin-kun said: actuallyaadhi said: "Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's good" Then how else do you say an anime is good? I'm sure we can all agree that art is subjective and the point of anime is to entertain people. If most of the people like it then the anime has achieved its purpose. Thus popular=good Ask yourself, Evangelion is a very popular anime that changed the very landscape of anime; yet why do you give it a 4? And also: From that reasoning is an anime that isn't popular bad? Just because it doesn't appeal to the crowd? There are also plenty of objective ways to view anime. There's things called animation quality/consistency, seeing if there are plot holes, seeing if character's actions make sense in context, how well and how consistent the world is built, how well-executed the story is, how much an anime has succeeded in doing what it set out to do thematically etc. If an anime is popular that just means it appeals to a lot of people. Seeing how you're still early in your anime watching, I swear one day there will come an anime you will watch that is popular that you will personally think is bad. But from your own thought process it must be good. Things are so much more nuanced. Good luck finding your way through this mess of a medium. I didnt want to imply not popular = bad. But I did want to imply popular = good. If you had one shot at impressing someone with an anime, you'll surely pick the anime that everyone likes, right? I didnt like evangelion at all and the only reason I didn't give it a 1 was because of the opening song but it's a definitely a good anime considering the overwhelming positive response from the audience |
fishyrishiOct 25, 2019 7:53 AM
| @actuallyaadhi 1.A huge part of this argument depends on the meaning we give to these words -> You don't seem to have read my point or at least tried to understand it. You can't both state that everyone has their own way of appreciating art and in the meantime claim that it has a single purpose. It is contradictory. What this purpose is is completely irrelevant to the argument. 2.I didn't say satisfying the expectation of studios, I said "satisfying viewers" -> you said " its okay to assume when some studio produces an animation on the large scale, they expect the viewers to be satisfied in some way or the other.", i.e. your justification for why anime should be entertaining was that it is what the studios made them for/expected of them. That is literally what you wrote... 3. satisfying viewers isn't an objective criterion because there is a lot of subjectivity about "how" an anime satisfies its viewers. -> That's not how it works. When you say "entertaining=good", you are making an objective statement. The fact that enjoyment varies between people is something else entirely. Why should the fact that the majority thinks something have to apply to others who might have completely different ways of seeing art ? For instance, why should a major writer agree with the majority of people, who have very limited knowledge of literature, on what book is good ? That seems completely ridiculous. 4.I hate evangelion but a huge portion of people loved the series. Personally I didn't like it but, since most others enjoyed it, we can call it a "good series". -> Why though ? That's just something you decided ! You are making your own definition of "good" seem like the only acceptable one, that is to say you are presenting your opinion as an objective truth. There are many different criteria that could be used to determine what is good, many of which make a lot more sense than just majority rule. What if for me, in order to be good, an art piece has to have flowers in it ? What if I claimed that what is good is only what certain scholars decide is good ? etc.... Do you get it now ? Your claim that popularity=good is completely random. You are making popularity an objective criterion of quality, and thus contradicting yourself, who stated that "art is subjective" Also, if most people thought killing each other and burning books is a great thing, does that mean you should agree with them ? What if what most people think was actually based on the influence of very few people, or on some cultural norms you don't share at all ? Majority rule is a complex concept that you can't just throw around like that. |
thizlasJul 5, 2022 12:03 AM
| @DateYutaka I wasn't actually talking to you, and no that's not really the same as what you said. Rather, I said many other things than what you were saying. By the way, why do you randomly message me with such a tone ? Did I do something to bother you ? |
thizlasOct 25, 2019 8:21 AM
DateYutaka said: nope I was agreeing with you most people who say x or y overrated or underrated hardly ever look at things critically Oh sorry then I misunderstood ! I never talked about people who say that things are overrated though XD My main point was that the guy who made the thread is contradicting himself without realizing it. |
thizlasOct 25, 2019 8:33 AM
| When people's average subjective ratings of a show far surpass the show's objective quality. |
actuallyaadhi said: I didnt want to imply not popular = bad. But I did want to imply popular = good. If you had one shot at impressing someone with an anime, you'll surely pick the anime that everyone likes, right? I didnt like evangelion at all and the only reason I didn't give it a 1 was because of the opening song but it's a definitely a good anime considering the overwhelming positive response from the audience You highly overestimate the good will of people who make anime. There's a reason why anime studios and producers keep pushing really shitty isekai or little sister shows season after season. Watch even a bit of Gi(a)rlish number if you want to understand something more. Or don't, I'm not the anime police. There are reasons an anime can be popular. One of those reasons may be that it's good but there are plenty of other factors. |
 Latest reviews: Wonder Egg Priority and A Couple of Cukoos |
actuallyaadhi said: This isn't true of all people and generalizations like this are as reductive as simply saying something's overrated without explaining why you think it's overrated. I think FMAB is overrated, but that doesn't make it a show I even dislike, I just don't think it's the be all end all of anime and certainly isn't the greatest anime of all time. It has a good story and good moments, but it's very very far from perfect, especially with the opening episodes. I also don't think the presentation is anything to write home about, especially considering it's Bones and what they've achieved with other anime (including FMA 2003). It just feels like a slightly above average anime in terms of presentation; I never thought "wow, I've never seen anything like that" when I was watching it, unlike with other Bones shows where I was asking myself how they managed to pull shots off with the budget of a tv anime. With how much praise the show gets for its animation, to say I was sorely disappointed would be a gross understatement. Do I think the show looks bad? No, of course not, I'm not blind and it does look good, but saying it has some of the best animation for an anime is a straight up lie and I can name off the top of my head probably 5 shows from the same studio that look better on a moment to moment basis than FMAB does in it's greatest moments (FMA 2003, Mob Psycho 100, My Hero Academia, Space Dandy, and Soul Eater come to mind almost immediately). It's certainly a great anime, but the amount of praise it gets in certain areas seems overzealous which imo makes it overrated. (I used FMAB because it's the only anime I've watched all the way through in months)There is no objective metric to judge how good an anime is, so what even is the point in calling something "overrated"? It is the biggest crybaby word there is, it just means "I hate how much people like this thing that I dont like". This will be followed by them nitpicking every small mistake of the show and blow it out of proportion. They wont ever apply the same extent of criticism to a show they like. Basically if its a show they like they'll try to make it sound as good as possible and if its something they dont like then they'll suddenly start caring about logic and science and all that. |
   Why don’t we become monsters and really mess up this awful world? Just destroy until there’s no more evil, no more sadness, no more anything… Wouldn’t that be great? |
thizlas said: @actuallyaadhi 1.A huge part of this argument depends on the meaning we give to these words -> You don't seem to have read my point or at least tried to understand it. You can't both state that everyone has their own way of appreciating art and in the meantime claim that it has a single purpose. It is contradictory. What this purpose is is completely irrelevant to the argument. 2.I didn't say satisfying the expectation of studios, I said "satisfying viewers" -> you said " its okay to assume when some studio produces an animation on the large scale, they expect the viewers to be satisfied in some way or the other.", ii.e. your justification for why anime should be entertaining was that it is what the studios made them for/expected of them. That is literally what you wrote... 3. satisfying viewers isn't an objective criterion because there is a lot of subjectivity about "how" an anime satisfies its viewers. -> That's not how it works. When you say "entertaining=good", you are making an objective statement. The fact that enjoyment varies between people is something else entirely. Why should the fact that the majority thinks something have to apply to others who might have completely different ways of seeing art ? For instance, why should a major writer agree with the majority of people, who have very limited knowledge of literature, on what book is good ? That seems completely ridiculous. 4.I hate evangelion but a huge portion of people loved the series. Personally I didn't like it but, since most others enjoyed it, we can call it a "good series". -> Why though ? That's just something you decided ! You are making your own definition of "good" seem like the only acceptable one, that is to say you are presenting your opinion as an objective truth. There are many different criteria that could be used to determine what is good, many of which make a lot more sense than just majority rule. What if for me, in order to be good, an art piece has to have flowers in it ? What if I claimed that what is good is only what certain scholars decide is good ? Do you get it now ? Your claim that popularity=good is completely random. You are making popularity an objective criterion of quality, and thus contradicting yourself, who stated that "art is subjective" Also, if most people thought killing each other and burning books is a great thing, does that mean you should agree with them ? What if what most people think was actually based on the influence of very few people, or on some cultural norms you don't share at all ? Majority rule is a dangerous concept that you can't throw around just like that. "You can't both state that everyone has their own way of appreciating art and in the meantime claim that it has a single purpose. It is contradictory" It isnt. everyone has their own way of appreciating art - true because there is no other metric to judge an anime producers try to make something appreciable - True because unless they do they wont make any money "Why should the fact that the majority thinks something have to apply to others who might have completely different ways of seeing art ?" I never said this. I even said I hated evangelion even though the majority thought it was good. "Your claim that popularity=good is completely random" It isnt. Anime has one more purpose that you are forgetting which is to make money and that very much depends on people appreciating it. I defined the "goodness" of anime based on that which is pretty reasonable. This is the only other way we can define how good it is. |
| @actuallyaadhi Ok well you clearly have no clue what you are talking about... Now art's purpose is to make money... You are completely conflating the standpoint of those who make the art and those who consume it. And even then, far from all of the people who make art make it solely to make money or to "entertain" people. I suggest you study art a bit before stating this kind of absurdities. Anyways I think I'm done, maybe you're in middle school or something, but still, I struggle to understand how someone could be so blind as to think their way of seeing art is "the only way" and say art is subjective in the same time XD The answer to anything you might reply back to me is already in my previous posts, I suggest you read them more slowly and take a bit of time to think instead of rushing to contradict me as soon as you read this. You're so convinced you are right that you don't even really examine other's arguments, it seems. |
thizlasOct 25, 2019 9:07 AM
actuallyaadhi said: If you think people make anime without the slightest intention of making money then you are just fucking stupid. Did I say that ? Where did I say that ? Why are you insulting me ? XD Actually I just understood where all the problems come from : you don't understand English and thus aren't able to even really get what I'm saying. Things make sense now... If you want we can continue this conversation on Discord, I think it'd be more convenient. |
thizlasJul 5, 2022 12:07 AM
thizlas said: @actuallyaadhi Ok well you clearly have no clue what you are talking about... Now art's purpose is to make money... You are completely conflating the standpoint of those who make the art and those who consume it. And even then, far from all of the people who make art make it solely to make money or to "entertain" people. I suggest you study art a bit before stating this kind of absurdities. Anyways I think I'm done, maybe you're in middle school or something, but still, I struggle to understand how someone could be so blind as to think their way of seeing art is "the only way" and say art is subjective in the same time XD The answer to anything you might reply back to me is already in my previous posts, I suggest read them more slowly and take a bit of time to think instead of rushing to contradict me as soon as you read this. I struggle to understand how someone could be so blind as to think their way of seeing art is "the only way" and say art is subjective in the same time XD I never said my way of seeing art is the only way. You literally are making things up I never said to make me look bad. |
actuallyaadhi said: I never said my way of seeing art is the only way. You literally are making things up I never said to make me look bad. "This is the only other way we can define how good it is" -> You said exactly this XD, just use ctrl+f and you'll have the proof |
thizlas said: actuallyaadhi said: I never said my way of seeing art is the only way. You literally are making things up I never said to make me look bad. "This is the only other way we can define how good it is" -> You said exactly this XD, just use ctrl+f and you'll have the proof I used commercial success as one way of defining how good an anime is. If you think this and what you said are the same thing then I don't know what to tell you |
actuallyaadhi said: I used commercial success as one way of defining how good an anime is. If you think this and what you said are the same thing then I don't know what to tell you You have basically made a 360 degrees shift, as you are now presenting this metric as only one way of seeing things and not the absolute truth. As long as you get that it's just one metric among others, and a pretty basic one at that, then there is no problem. You were stating this "popular=good" thing as if it was the result of a demonstration, a factual evidence, which it isn't. That's what I wanted to point out. |
thizlasOct 25, 2019 9:43 AM
thizlas said: actuallyaadhi said: I used commercial success as one way of defining how good an anime is. If you think this and what you said are the same thing then I don't know what to tell you You have basically made a 360 degrees shift, as you are now presenting this metric as only one way of seeing things and not the absolute truth. As long as you get that it's just one metric among others, and a pretty basic one at that, then there is no problem. You were stating this "popular=good" thing as if it was the result of a demonstration, a factual evidence, which it isn't. That's what I wanted to point out. Go to reply number 69 on this thread. there you will find this statement "I defined the "goodness" of anime based on that which is pretty reasonable" which clearly says I DEFINED IT and NOT THE OBJECTIVE TRUTH. |
| Tbf the same could be the said for some show that's "underrated" . I think its just personal opinion so it can be ignored safely |
 |
actuallyaadhi said: "I defined the "goodness" of anime based on that which is pretty reasonable" which clearly says I DEFINED IT and NOT THE OBJECTIVE TRUTH. just how far will bad faith go... Right after saying that you wrote "This is the only other way we can define how good it is" : you used the terms ONLY OTHER WAY (considering that the other way, the first one, way also defined by yourself). Saying that it is how you define it but that there is NO OTHER WAY is exactly the same as saying that your definition is the only correct one, and thus making it seem like the objective truth !!!!!! |
thizlas said: actuallyaadhi said: "I defined the "goodness" of anime based on that which is pretty reasonable" which clearly says I DEFINED IT and NOT THE OBJECTIVE TRUTH. just how far will bad faith go... Right after saying that you wrote "This is the only other way we can define how good it is" : you used the terms ONLY WAY. Saying that it is how you define it but that there is NO OTHER WAY is exactly the same as saying that your definition is the only correct one !!!!!! The only way because you can MEASURE the commercial success of an anime, you cant measure its plot , soundtrack etc |
actuallyaadhi said: The only way because you can MEASURE the commercial success of an anime, you cant measure its plot , soundtrack etc Ah, now we're getting to the interesting part. You're starting to provide arguments instead of just stating things out of nowhere. Personally, I disagree with what you are saying : I don't think the fact that popularity is easier to evaluate than other things makes in a more interesting or useful metric. Also, it is possible to study and "evaluate", in a sense, the content of art : it is exactly what literary criticism has been doing for centuries. You seem to have a need for exact measurement, but why would that be necessary ? As you said, art is subjective, so isn't it more interesting to try and see what is "inside" to understand what it is with art that people resonate with, what it manifests, how it is produced, and the different reactions it can give birth to ? (I said "inside" but the "location" of the art is actually a pretty complex debate in itself) |
thizlasNov 24, 2019 3:26 PM
| @actuallyaadhi Also, popularity is only an outside manifestation of art pieces, and there are other such manifestations that are just as measurable as popularity (though the measurements can be harder to carry out precisely), such as influence on society, on certain genres, on art as a whole. |
| So much overthinking here, overrated is just a subjective term used to express the personal belief that the global valuation/appreciation of a work is more than what that work really deserves. |
| overrated. underrated. tf even cares at this point |
| Something that is popular but not high in quality, this is of course subjective. |
 |
| Apparent weaknesses are being ignored when rating an anime. For example: at least 1:2 seem to hate the character of Zenitsu in Kimetsu no Yaiba and the humor sorrounding him. Even if you like the type of humor, you should be able to acknowledge the issue due to pure quantity. Not doing so or even using comedy as a pro for the show makes you overrate it. |
 |
actuallyaadhi said: I'm sure we can all agree that art is subjective and the point of anime is to entertain people. This is an overrated opinion. I am hopefully joking, and I think that you had a good point here; it is trivial that many famous writers held this view (that success is one way to measure the quality of a piece of art) since Boileau at least, who was well-known for his critical work and his satires (he had a lot of success in his time too!). Artists who call on posterity to judge of the importance of their work take the huge risk to be ridiculous, like the writer that Camus mentions in The Myth of Sisyphus who committed suicide to attract attention on his first book "Attention was in fact attracted, but the book was judged no good." (there are a lot of exceptions, like Schopenhauer and - to a lesser degree - Proust for example). But success is a limited tool, despite being a useful criterion, to judge of real value. Indeed, it is quite common to encounter in classics names of ancient authors, extremely popular in their time, but completely forgotten today (almost all poets mentioned by Boileau from the 17th century fall into this category). That anime be a piece of art is a difficult question (I have a few examples, but I am afraid that people will judge them overrated if I give their names), and I also think that the vast majority is here for entertainment only, but this is not a very important question in my opinion. Besides the interesting points mentioned by @thizlas, one should also mention the thought of a famous writer (I forgot his name ironically), who argued that writers are like goods on the stock market, and that the latter may fluctuate for trivial reasons such as being part of the official program in school, or by the influence of renowned scholars, etc. However, the names of great artists that are still known today after centuries for sure accomplished works of some value (which may not be quantifiable). And one can hardly speak about subjectivity here; however a sociological (or philosophical) analysis could be carried to analyze the value of our conceptions related to art, but this is certainly not the place for such a study... |
| When someone dislikes what other people like. |
Yakadori said: Preachee said: That is overpopular, not overrated. Presumably, no one ever says SAO is overrated because it has already been recklessly bashed enough, but many will definitely say FMAB is. This is a problem somehow. Ratings and popularity are not very similar, how is that not clear? I don't think SAO is over popular or overrated. It receives the rating it does because people genuinely like it. And at the same time it easy to digest for less that average anime fan(meaning: someone that doesn't watch anime much) Yea I know, it's a subjective statement because in this case, it needs to be subjective. Calling out something as overpopular and overrated is subjective obviously, but what I'm trying to say was that calling something "overrated because of how popular it is" is unjust and irrelevant. Two are different matters. And by giving an example of SAO, I'm trying to make a point that not many will call it "overrated" because it has always been recklessly criticized, but a lot would call it "overpopular". That's just what I was trying to say, and of course liking SAO is a different topic. |
| . . . |
thizlas said: actuallyaadhi said: I used commercial success as one way of defining how good an anime is. If you think this and what you said are the same thing then I don't know what to tell you You have basically made a 360 degrees shift, as you are now presenting this metric as only one way of seeing things and not the absolute truth. As long as you get that it's just one metric among others, and a pretty basic one at that, then there is no problem. You were stating this "popular=good" thing as if it was the result of a demonstration, a factual evidence, which it isn't. That's what I wanted to point out. A 360 degree change means you will be at the same position initially, so yeah, next time say 180 degree change if you want to illustrate an direct and opposite change in claim. its amazing how you call me a middle schooler and cant even get middle school math right |
actuallyaadhi said: A 360 degree change means you will be at the same position initially, so yeah, next time say 180 degree change if you want to illustrate an direct and opposite change in claim. its amazing how you call me a middle schooler and cant even get middle school math right Whoops that's my bad ! Doesn't change anything to the overwhelming validity of my criticism though ^^ |
thizlasOct 26, 2019 4:12 AM
| Its a safety mechanism people use to assure themselves that the show isn't doing something right. |
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