Vinland Saga Episode 10 Discussion

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Apr 2016

4788

Callesthe said:

TopgunUK said:

It's funny how a forgettable scene to one person is one of the more defining scenes to someone else, all the more reason to keep them all in when you're not stretched for time, I'd argue.

I would completely agree in the case of many other shows, but -spoken like a true fan of this story- Vinland Saga has so many great scenes! It's one of few series that manages to make every scene relevant to the story or meaningful in some way. It's why the absence of one or two scenes doesn't harm the show that much, since as you said the same/similar points have been made with other scenes already.

TopgunUK said:

His father would've helped anyone who needed it, at great personal cost but Thorfinn is not following in his footsteps at all.

Like, you could argue from a story-technical point of view this point was made in the dream sequence, and a few episodes ago with Thorfinn burning the house and christian woman more subtly. If leaving out a scene makes the content more accessible to some watchers, I would be okay with that.

TopgunUK said:

It's so rare to have a rape related scene in Manga or Anime that isn't supposed to be either titilating or an excuse to have a situation for the protagonist to resolve (or a mixture of both).

I mean, Devilman (Crybaby adaptation) and any other show that has drawn direct inspiration from it (Berserk, NGE) come to mind as shows that also directly or indirectly discuss rape in a more serious way. It just kinda scares me when people can't separate shows that try to discuss rape, from rape hentai shows.

"Accessible"? You mean, less complete. Or worse, twisted from the original meaning.
[/quote]

Kimurah said:
What a bunch of absolutely nothing.

Boring slow episode with a huge epiphany dream that lasts too long with already reused footage (where are my wit fanboys now?)

Askeladd's phrases sound like I'mfourteenandthisdeep kind of thing, just shallow phrases to impress teenagers.

Thorkell beats Canute's forces, oh, lets just "tell" what happen and just show a couple of static shots with tons of speedlines to make it look like it has movement.

This boat is sinking faster than their undestructible viking boats.

Akkhhtually, what Askeladd says is the most profound thing yet found in this series after Thors outlook. Askeladd is royally disappointed in the post-Romans world and perishing while trying to destroy it seems to be his prime dream.

Re:formed

Sep 15, 2019 1:49 PM

#54

RainyShadow

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Oct 2017

523

NotFred said:

RainyShadow said:
Can we have an alternate story where the stupid brat dies along with Thors and then Ylva goes on a revenge quest, please?!

I don't understand the hype for Ylva, forgetable as hell. oh wait. Waifu's.

Also we don't need an alternate story, since it is already great.

Personally - it's not hype for Ylva, just hate for Thorfuckn...

Also, the story is boring.

Sep 15, 2019 2:10 PM

#55

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Apr 2016

4788

Marrone said:

Daniel_Naumov said:
Okay I was critical. I was rash when talking about this series. But when Thorkell threw those stones like M&Ms I lost it. I lost all desire to keep going. As the series lost any desire to stay coherent. I will just... observe the drama, and try not to refer to this series as "historical" anymore.

I actually don't think they did, as at least when the Thorkell and the Asgeird were talking, both tips of his cut fingers were missing. But I did not pay much attention to that, I kinda lost any desire to pay attention after Thorkell became a catapult.

Honestly for a series like that it does not seem that they care for a coherent adaptation any more than the author cared for a coherent story to begin with.

Maybe read up on some 'history' mr historian. Icelandic sagas vastly exaggerated the feats vikings accomplished making them appear superhuman. The word saga in vinland saga implies a retelling of these events. And apart from Thorkell other characters dont display superhuman strength.

The story seems coherent to me. Canute is captured and the plan is to save him. Not hard to grasp im sure even for you.

Top tier excuses but please spare me them: this is a forum for civilized and matter discussions, and these excuses amount to nigh, even to you! If only you were slightly less insecure and able to admit that the series you like is not so great. Why, even I am able to do so.

Re:formed

Sep 15, 2019 2:13 PM

#56

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Aug 2019

87

Daniel_Naumov said:
Okay I was critical. I was rash when talking about this series. But when Thorkell threw those stones like M&Ms I lost it. I lost all desire to keep going. As the series lost any desire to stay coherent. I will just... observe the drama, and try not to refer to this series as "historical" anymore.

Vinland Saga is modeled after the Icelandic Sagas. While those sagas contained exploits of historical figures that match other historical records, many of those exploits are exaggerated. By the time some sagas were written, many accomplishments were inflated after years of constant retelling, to the point where you could consider some sagas part-historical record and part-works of fiction. (i.e. Saga of Ragnar Lothbrok).

Sep 15, 2019 2:13 PM

#57

GalacticMagna

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Jul 2013

1569

Thorfinn is still saddened by his father's death. And he's still determined to kill Askaleed. Overall, nothing much to think about honestly.

Sep 15, 2019 2:18 PM

#58

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Apr 2016

4788

najumobi said:

Daniel_Naumov said:
Okay I was critical. I was rash when talking about this series. But when Thorkell threw those stones like M&Ms I lost it. I lost all desire to keep going. As the series lost any desire to stay coherent. I will just... observe the drama, and try not to refer to this series as "historical" anymore.

Vinland Saga is modeled after the Icelandic Sagas. While those sagas contained exploits of historical figures that match other historical records, many of those exploits are exaggerated. By the time some sagas were written, many accomplishments were inflated after years of constant retelling, to the point where you could consider some sagas part-historical record and part-works of fiction. (i.e. Saga of Ragnar Lothbrok).

If you are really trying to support the "saga" excuse, then how come in this epic, in this saga only Thors and Thorkell, from a pool of about 20 characters, fit into this? Were they not conventionally "overpowered" to propel the story in the needed way the author envisioned, no matter the cost of the quality? I believe so.

Re:formed

Sep 15, 2019 2:36 PM

#59

Flaecy

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Feb 2009

2483

another epic episode worth the wait for 2 weeks

Sep 15, 2019 2:52 PM

#60

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Apr 2016

4788

Marrone said:

Daniel_Naumov said:

Top tier excuses but please spare me them: this is a forum for civilized and matter discussions, and these excuses amount to nigh, even to you! If only you were slightly less insecure and able to admit that the series you like is not so great. Why, even I am able to do so.

so you replied back without actually making any points. what about the plot is not coherent to you? and yes lol icelandic sagas are what i just made up on the spot not that they are real legitimate scriptures. bye mr historian in quotation marks

I can not counter excuses. That's the whole point. Either way if you have nothing of a value to share do not participate in forum discussions, I beseech ye.

Re:formed

Sep 15, 2019 3:12 PM

#61

bluninja

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May 2019

859

Daniel_Naumov said:
Okay I was critical. I was rash when talking about this series. But when Thorkell threw those stones like M&Ms I lost it. I lost all desire to keep going. As the series lost any desire to stay coherent. I will just... observe the drama, and try not to refer to this series as "historical" anymore.

I agree with this one. For the past few episodes I watched everything with pure joy but when Thorkell threw those rocks like that I thought I was watching a fantastic shounen for a second. Totally disliked that part.

I still love the series though.

If you read Eleceed you're automatically my friend.

Sep 15, 2019 3:23 PM

#62

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Aug 2019

87

Daniel_Naumov said:

najumobi said:

Vinland Saga is modeled after the Icelandic Sagas. While those sagas contained exploits of historical figures that match other historical records, many of those exploits are exaggerated. By the time some sagas were written, many accomplishments were inflated after years of constant retelling, to the point where you could consider some sagas part-historical record and part-works of fiction. (i.e. Saga of Ragnar Lothbrok).

If you are really trying to support the "saga" excuse, then how come in this epic, in this saga only Thors and Thorkell, from a pool of about 20 characters, fit into this? Were they not conventionally "overpowered" to propel the story in the needed way the author envisioned, no matter the cost of the quality? I believe so.

Early contextualization & characterization, with consistency moving forward matters.
The word Saga lets you know upfront that it draws inspiration from semi-historical works. In addition, many sagas are written about people who were seen as being larger than life, so telling of their deeds would reflect that they're doing things other people can't. Vinland lets you know upfront how a figure should be viewed. Thors effortlessly kills 10 in a row, and Thorkell chops a ship's mast in half with one swing. That's episode 1, Scene 1. That early characterization lets you know upfront that going forward, that their scenes will play out as if they have abilities that are super human unless there's a reason it should be otherwise.

najumobiSep 15, 2019 3:47 PM

Sep 15, 2019 4:29 PM

#63

ChainxBastard

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Feb 2016

257

Anyways, I had an earlier theory about Askeladd that I feel has all but confirmed it for me in this scene.

I'm fairly sure that I am correct.

Sep 15, 2019 4:30 PM

#64

TsukuyomiREKT

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May 2015

5397

Week 10 of dumb trolls that can't come up with any legitimate criticism.

Sep 15, 2019 4:41 PM

#65

Gabisu

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Jun 2015

58

Daniel_Naumov said:
Okay I was critical. I was rash when talking about this series. But when Thorkell threw those stones like M&Ms I lost it. I lost all desire to keep going. As the series lost any desire to stay coherent. I will just... observe the drama, and try not to refer to this series as "historical" anymore.

AcceleratorAngel said:

Thorkell put his fingers back on and they grew together dont forget hes a super human.

I actually don't think they did, as at least when the Thorkell and the Asgeird were talking, both tips of his cut fingers were missing. But I did not pay much attention to that, I kinda lost any desire to pay attention after Thorkell became a catapult.

dicecop said:
Guess the rape scene was too much to animate after all. Oh well, I expected as much

Yeah, wonder why they didn't fix that. They had a bunch of time to make a small edit for that

Honestly for a series like that it does not seem that they care for a coherent adaptation any more than the author cared for a coherent story to begin with.

But being consistent or realistic is not optional? I believe that storytellers tend to go one way, there is the fact that a mangaka uses more exaggerated action scenes to hook another audience, are justifiable by work.

I don't know what this generation of people tend to do that every work needs to be 100% realistic.

Sep 15, 2019 5:02 PM

#66

Mich666

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Oct 2012

5799

Can Throkell please stop hurling those rocks several kilometers away and waving around with those logs?
I know I had grumbled about it several times before but all those feats of strength pretty much undermine the otherwise serious tone of the show.

Other than that, this was a good episode, with that Thorfinn's dream and Askeldadd's fateful talk about Ragnarok. Thorfinn is still pain in the ass until he gets his revenge though. I have the feeling that Askeldadd will use him as means to end his life at his highest, showing him he get nothing with it.

Still, the pace is really slow... we are still circling around and around and nothing than more pillages and fights are happenning lately. I almost feel like the story is bit aimless in this part.

Sep 15, 2019 5:03 PM

#67

mayhem1994

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May 2015

38

Ah yes, the trolls are out in force today I see.

Another phenomenal episode, Vinland Saga has been the most consistent show I've seen in years, OST, animation, writing and especially the background art have always held to a high standard of quality throughout (apart from a few CG shots during large scale events)

A little flash to Askeladd's past, the insight to his current world view and his hunger is absolutely enthralling, those few minutes during the latter part of the episode have opened up so many questions that I can't wait for the anime to deliver.

Sep 15, 2019 5:21 PM

#68

Lawren222

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Apr 2019

38

Mich666 said:
Can Throkell please stop hurling those rocks several kilometers away and waving around with those logs?
I know I had grumbled about it several times before but all those feats of strength pretty much undermine the otherwise serious tone of the show.

Other than that, this was a good episode, with that Thorfinn's dream and Askeldadd's fateful talk about Ragnarok. Thorfinn is still pain in the ass until he gets his revenge though. I have the feeling that Askeldadd will use him as means to end his life at his highest, showing him he get nothing with it.

Still, the pace is really slow... we are still circling around and around and nothing than more pillages and fights are happenning lately. I almost feel like the story is bit aimless in this part.

The story is aware of were it's going Askeladd decision to save Caunte it's just another random job,it will lead to the driving plot and conflict of the rest of the season. The stroy of Vinland Saga is in general not exactly fast paced and some episodes of the anime including this one has only covered one chapter from the manga in an episode.

Sep 15, 2019 5:27 PM

#69

skipped

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Jan 2018

123

Why was this episode delayed again?

whats a signature

Sep 15, 2019 5:44 PM

#70

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Aug 2019

87

Mich666 said:
Can Throkell please stop hurling those rocks several kilometers away and waving around with those logs?
I know I had grumbled about it several times before but all those feats of strength pretty much undermine the otherwise serious tone of the show.

Other than that, this was a good episode, with that Thorfinn's dream and Askeldadd's fateful talk about Ragnarok. Thorfinn is still pain in the ass until he gets his revenge though. I have the feeling that Askeldadd will use him as means to end his life at his highest, showing him he get nothing with it.

Still, the pace is really slow... we are still circling around and around and nothing than more pillages and fights are happenning lately. I almost feel like the story is bit aimless in this part.

I don't mind feats of super strength this episode from Thorkell since it's consistent.
But I agree about the pace. The story didn't progress as far as I thought it would have. Based on how they added and cut material maybe they thought later episodes would be more cohesive with this stopping point. Though there's no way to know until we see the payoff.

Sep 15, 2019 8:17 PM

#71

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Jun 2009

2741

Like I expected they didn't include the rape scene from chapter 20. It wasn't Thorfinn who did it, they were some randos in Askeladd's crew but still. He ignored her and walked right past without helping her. He even seemed annoyed about it, not even one iota of compassion. If he thought if he would have stopped the rape, Askeladd's men would have complained about it to Askeladd and make him upset at Thorfinn, denying him any duels in the future, Thorfinn could have easily gone around the issue. He could have just said they woke him up from his sleep and if he's not at 100% he won't be able to find some treasure or steal it from someone strong or something like that. Askeladd would have no problem with it since he wants treasure to keep his operation afloat.

Thorfinn wouldn't have needed to go all gentlemanlike "You won't rape this woman on my watch, that's disgraceful" he could have just said "Hey, her screams bother my sleep, so stop raping her". That's a wrap. But him not doing anything about it really made me hate him when I first read this chapter years ago. Now he's one of my favorite characters so that shows how much he has changed.

The actual rape wasn't even shown in the manga, it was very tastefully done. Just them surrounding her and putting some cloth in her mouth so she won't scream and her looking at Thorfinn pleading with her eyes for help. No skin was shown. So I don't think they didn't show that scene because of the censors but because it would make Thorfinn look very bad. They wanted to make Thorfinn more likeable in the anime. They did the same with episode 8. In the manga, Thofinn doesn't tell Hordaland about Vinland. It's just Hordaland wondering if there's a land of peace across the horizon while Thorfinn stays silent. In the anime however Hordaland is pessimistic and thinks no matter how far you go there's no peace anywhere. Thorfinn doesn't stay silent in the anime and tells her of Vinland, and describes it as a place of peace, with no slaves.

It really upsets me they didn't include this scene since I think it's pivotal for Thorfinn's character and shows just how much of a monster he is at this point in time. Again, he didn't do the raping but he totally ignored it and didn't help one bit.

Studio WIT and the director trying to make these changes weaken the story, it makes it toothless and not as impactful and raw as in the manga.

Rhiannon-SenpaiSep 15, 2019 8:34 PM

Sep 15, 2019 8:21 PM

#72

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Jun 2009

2741

skipped said:
Why was this episode delayed again?

The episode was delayed because of a typhoon: https://comicbook.com/anime/2019/09/08/vinland-saga-anime-delay-new-episodes-typhoon/

Sep 15, 2019 8:34 PM

#73

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564612

It was OK episode, I am sure the episode could have worked without the flashbacks. And yikes the last minutes was almost unwatchable with the awful background art! o_O pretty sure it was done on the last minute of the production but damn now this really worries me of the upcoming episodes while the show is not half done yet.

Sep 15, 2019 9:17 PM

#74

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Nov 2015

664

nanimeanswhat said:

Daniel_Naumov said:
Okay I was critical. I was rash when talking about this series. But when Thorkell threw those stones like M&Ms I lost it. I lost all desire to keep going. As the series lost any desire to stay coherent. I will just... observe the drama, and try not to refer to this series as "historical" anymore.

I agree with this one. For the past few episodes I watched everything with pure joy but when Thorkell threw those rocks like that I thought I was watching a fantastic shounen for a second. Totally disliked that part.

I still love the series though.

prior to that we saw cut down people in half and we saw Thors do all that superhuman stuff , so him throwing that wasn't out of place. We also saw thorfin leap 30 feet, so this isn't that out of place.

Sep 15, 2019 9:20 PM

#75

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Nov 2015

664

-Ereya- said:
Like I expected they didn't include the rape scene from chapter 20. It wasn't Thorfinn who did it, they were some randos in Askeladd's crew but still. He ignored her and walked right past without helping her. He even seemed annoyed about it, not even one iota of compassion. If he thought if he would have stopped the rape, Askeladd's men would have complained about it to Askeladd and make him upset at Thorfinn, denying him any duels in the future, Thorfinn could have easily gone around the issue. He could have just said they woke him up from his sleep and if he's not at 100% he won't be able to find some treasure or steal it from someone strong or something like that. Askeladd would have no problem with it since he wants treasure to keep his operation afloat.

Thorfinn wouldn't have needed to go all gentlemanlike "You won't rape this woman on my watch, that's disgraceful" he could have just said "Hey, her screams bother my sleep, so stop raping her". That's a wrap. But him not doing anything about it really made me hate him when I first read this chapter years ago. Now he's one of my favorite characters so that shows how much he has changed.

The actual rape wasn't even shown in the manga, it was very tastefully done. Just them surrounding her and putting some cloth in her mouth so she won't scream and her looking at Thorfinn pleading with her eyes for help. No skin was shown. So I don't think they didn't show that scene because of the censors but because it would make Thorfinn look very bad. They wanted to make Thorfinn more likeable in the anime. They did the same with episode 8. In the manga, Thofinn doesn't tell Hordaland about Vinland. It's just Hordaland wondering if there's a land of peace across the horizon while Thorfinn stays silent. In the anime however Hordaland is pessimistic and thinks no matter how far you go there's no peace anywhere. Thorfinn doesn't stay silent in the anime and tells her of Vinland, and describes it as a place of peace, with no slaves.

It really upsets me they didn't include this scene since I think it's pivotal for Thorfinn's character and shows just how much of a monster he is at this point in time. Again, he didn't do the raping but he totally ignored it and didn't help one bit.

Studio WIT and the director trying to make these changes weaken the story, it makes it toothless and not as impactful and raw as in the manga.

in the manga, she pleaded for help but I don't remember her calling thorfin for help, and them excluding that rape scene detract from the story at all in my opinion, all it does is reaffirm a certain aspect of his character that we already knew, he selfishness and willingness to only help himself but feel remorse for that as well, it doesn't introduce anything new about him. I would've preferred that they kept it in but I understand why they didn't.
Plus I would argue , that the filler they put in the series enhanced it.

Sep 15, 2019 9:22 PM

#76

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Jun 2009

2741

Black_Sheep97 said:
in the manga, she pleaded for help but I don't remember her calling thorfin for help, and them excluding that rape scene doesn't change anything

She did look at him.
Actually yeah, it makes Thorfinn look better, less of a monster. It takes a lot from his characterization at this moment in time.

Sep 15, 2019 9:27 PM

#77

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Nov 2015

664

TopgunUK said:
They should not have cut that scene, it's not an essential story beat, it's not a dealbreaker that will ruin the adaptation, but it was one of the most memorable parts of the Manga still.

It's completely tasteful, not in anyway eroticised, doesn't actually show the rape but it does show the violence and the fact that even though Thorfinn doesn't participate, he doesn't intervene when we know he could easily stop it.

He was just thinking about his mother and sister back home but he doesn't empathise at all with this other girl who is just as innocent.

As someone who thinks Goblin slayer is irredeemable trash this scene should've been kept in, and they had ample time to have it in there + they've been inserting lots of anime original content to stretch this arc over a season so the absence of anything that was actually in the manga is clearly very deliberate and clearly in this case to avoid controversy which I don't think it would have actually even generated because of how it was executed.

it really doesn't add anything new to the story, it's never implied in the manga that he was thinking about his mother and sister back home when that happened in the manga.

That scene doesn't add anything new to his character, all it does is reaffirm a part of his characterization that was developed in the previous episodes. That he values his quest for vengeance more than anything else and wouldn't do anything to conflict that.

Sep 15, 2019 9:30 PM

#78

liam0207

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May 2019

861

'A dawn in the age of twilight'

One of the best anime quotes. Completely sums up Vinland Saga's philosophy thus far.

I liked the psychoanalysis of Thorfinn this episode, and the touch of geopolitics

We don't know what kind of people we truly are until the moment before our deaths.
As death comes to embrace you, you will realise what you are.
That's what death is, don't you think?

------------------------------------
Itachi Uchiha

Sep 15, 2019 9:35 PM

#79

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Nov 2015

664

-Ereya- said:

Black_Sheep97 said:
in the manga, she pleaded for help but I don't remember her calling thorfin for help, and them excluding that rape scene doesn't change anything

She did look at him.
Actually yeah, it makes Thorfinn look better, less of a monster. It takes a lot from his characterization at this moment in time.

yeah she did, but we don't know if that was a cry for help ,made eye contact with her and walked away. it doesn't make thorfinn look less of monster cause even when that happened, he didn't participate but his reaction to it wasn't even remorseful , this shows his disregard for others which is something that was developed and showcased before with village burning sequence, that moment arguably developed him to this. And this semi monster characteristics of it can be inferred from other events that happen before and after.

If he did rape her, it would be essential to show as that portrays him who we could classify to be more monstrous.

Sep 15, 2019 9:37 PM

#80

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Jun 2009

2741

Black_Sheep97 said:
it's never implied in the manga that he was thinking about his mother and sister back home when that happened in the manga.

He was just dreaming about his family (that includes his mother and sister) right when he woke up to the guys starting to rape the girl.

Sep 15, 2019 9:51 PM

#81

F4660t

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Mar 2019

20

Gabisu said:

shane_nichols said:

With the sjws all over the media it's a smart move. I mean even Tanjirous earrings got criticized lmao

I think just the fact that there are several innocent people being killed around askeladd's group, already shows this apathetic relationship of thorfinn, does not change much for what material will adapt

It shows how dark these times were and it makes you feel uncomfortable. It also shows you the relationship between Askeladd’s group and Thorfinn.

Sep 15, 2019 10:05 PM

#82

Wintovisky

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Sep 2013

1711

The first 3 episodes of this anime were good. After that, the show got boring quickly.

Sep 15, 2019 10:09 PM

#83

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Aug 2019

87

F4660t said:

Gabisu said:

I think just the fact that there are several innocent people being killed around askeladd's group, already shows this apathetic relationship of thorfinn, does not change much for what material will adapt

It shows how dark these times were and it makes you feel uncomfortable. It also shows you the relationship between Askeladd’s group and Thorfinn.

Yeah, I think askladd's men say "he always looks down on us" or something like that.

Sep 15, 2019 10:31 PM

#84

landofthekwt

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Mar 2015

12591

Got to love Askeladd and Thorkell Why sit around when you can fight On to Ragnarok What you idiots do not seem to realize is that Canute will become of king of England, Denmark and Norway but his empire will fade on his death

landofthekwtSep 15, 2019 10:35 PM

Sep 15, 2019 10:45 PM

#85

Marinate1016

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Feb 2019

8013

This is easily anime of the season, I love and hate how underrated it is tho. Yes, it has a high rating here, but not many people are watching this gem. It has serious berserk and vagabond vibes and the manga has God tier art.

Sep 16, 2019 12:26 AM

#86