HopefulNihilist said: I think for a character to be complex, they need to have many layers to their personality, as well as, contradictions. The best example I can think of Shinji Ikari: generally, he's a very timid, obedient kid, but then he sometimes displays a more rebellious attitude towards authority. He wants to become close to other people, but is afraid to do so. Shinji to me is a character who genuinely feels like an actual person I'd know in real life, and that's why I think he's complex. Can you think of any other examples of characters you'd consider to be complex? If so, why? Interesting topic! I agree with everything you said except the Shinji part because I haven't watched NGE so I couldn't tell. In addition to what you said, I think a complex character has to have something relatable, something human, something realistic so we as viewers can connect with them. - Things like flaws also important. - Characters that have their own goal, and reasons to reach it. - Is not revolving in only one character. - Doesn't feel like a plot device. - Have reasons to behave the way they do. - Have struggles with something, just like how we all do irl. - Have preferences that define them, based on their past experience and things around them. Will add more later~ |
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Shicchi said: In addition to what you said, I think a complex character has to have something relatable, something human, something realistic so we as viewers can connect with them. - Things like flaws also important. - Characters that have their own goal, and reasons to reach it. - Is not revolving in only one character. - Doesn't feel like a plot device. - Have reasons to behave the way they do. - Have struggles with something, just like how we all do irl. - Have preferences that define them, based on their past experience and things around them. I overall agree with this. My go-to definition is a character you can see existing as an irl person (personality wise, obviously) |
 I AM THE ONE CALLED POWER! How foolish and conceited these humans be... |
HopefulNihilist said: Shicchi said: Interesting topic! I agree with everything you said except the Shinji part because I haven't watched NGE so I couldn't tell. In addition to what you said, I think a complex character has to have something relatable, something human, something realistic so we as viewers can connect with them. - Things like flaws also important. - Characters that have their own goal, and reasons to reach it. - Is not revolving in only one character. - Doesn't feel like a plot device. - Have reasons to behave the way they do. - Have struggles with something, just like how we all do irl. - Have preferences that define them, based on their past experience and things around them. Will add more later~ I think when it comes to goals, it's more relatable for a character to have a basic goal we have: something like, trying to quit drugs, or become a lawyer. My problem with Shirou Emiya is precisely that: his goal of becoming a, "hero" is not something that anybody in real life would think of. A realistic version of his goal would be something like wanting to be a doctor. For me it just have to fit with the settings/world of the story it took place in. |
| OTP: KidLaw | IzuKatsu | GureShin | EruRi | AoKi | See more! » My art » My translation » Doujinshi collection » Favorite Kurobas doujinshi BISHIES X RAP |
| Seeing all these deep characters from pretty deep shows The feels when you believe the most complex characters in fiction as a whole are from a harem comedy ecchi manga which no one will ever care about... |
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| dude that is a nice thinking if someone calls me a hypocrite with too many contradictions then i will just say im a complex character lol and i can add this guy aside from Shinji https://myanimelist.net/character/149087/Charioce_XVII he got an alter ego (not exactly split personality though) same with Mob from Mob Psycho especially the manga |
| A complex character is defined by their actions, no inner monologue, not too many expressions, just a character that is prepared to act and think for themselves. To have many complex characters, just make them do different things and say different things. Complexity can only be experienced indirectly. |
| 1. First type Otosaka Yuu (Charlotte) Osamu Dazai (Bungou Stray dogs) 2. Second type Nanachi (Made in Abyss) Stark x Grimmjow (Bleach) A character whose personality turns 180 degrees (Ouma Shuu, Train Heartnet) is the 1st complex type. A character who addapts to his surroundings or to suit the situation he/she finds him/herself in. (Kuroyukihime, Altair) fit in the 2nd type. |
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| Someone who acts contrary to typical anime characters. A complex character would also be someone with a sadistic desire to show people the meaninglessness of life through pain and death, and the narcissism to see the world remade in his own image. It is very rare to see an antagonist in anime so far that is ruthless, lethal, brilliant and unpredictable. Most of the time, they're just plain boring with their ambitions to rule the world. There are some anti-heroes in anime, but hardly have I seen one with a brutal nature and strong willingness to murder, kidnap, extort, coerce, maim, torture or inflict a variety of pain to his foes. I guess I can consider Yuji from Blue Gender a complex protagonist since his persona changed like the weather. I didn't expect him to become unwillingly dark or bloodlusted when he massacred some giant mutant bugs. |
| Yeah the whole Layers thing definitely makes sense.Contradictions does not seem like a necessary characteristic, feels more like a optional feature or a by-product of being complex. Your question need not be restricted only to anime, I've asked this question as to 'How is one person(in real life)more complex than another with respect to their behavior and personalities" to myself? Well I have my own pet theory for this. Firstly, we consider all kinds of simple people.Who are 'simple' people? These are people whose behavior and personality is highly predictable.For example most children exhibit simplistic behavior.You can always tell how their thought process is functioning and how they feel and react.And there are different 'simplistic' personalities like The simple lover,The simple farmer(workers),The simple politician and so on. 'Complex' people are ones who start out as 'simple' but manifest other 'simplistic' behavuorial tendencies and personalities and integrate them into their current existence due to interactions with the external environment.For example making jokes or fun at another(friends or close people) may seem like insulting at first to the mindset of the simple person but he/she soon learns to develop this contradictory yet supremely effective way of expressing comradeship. Now let's assume that any(or rather every) person(or fictional character) exhibits all the infinitely many 'simplistic' tendencies but in varying proportions.So naturally a 'simple' person is one whose proprotions of most of these characteristics goes close to 0.While a 'complex' person will have many characteristics of sizable proportions. To make it easier to follow,just consider the analogy of a cocktail.They all start out as simple liquids before getting mixed together.And it can be very hard to predict what went in and how much of it.That is why contradictions is not a necessity.Bitter-Sweet cocktails are all complex but not all complex cocktails need to contain substances which elicit polar response.I could be clearer but hope you are getting my point. Coming back to fictional characters,I consider those characters whom I think I got some read on but am unable to predict what they will do or how they will react as one measure of complexity.Of course they have to be well written too and not some random mish-mash of 'not so well thought out' writing is trying to sell. There are few examples from anime but I can't think of them right now.I know you haven't watched Breaking Bad yet @AbsurdistOtaku but that show has a character that always comes to my mind when I think of 'complex' personality. |
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| It is necessarily to decide whether characters meet some arbitrary standard of 'complexity' or not? |
| not really a reply but Diavolo is a complex character |
| To Define a Complex Character.. She Have a Body Figure.. A Galaxy Eyes.. A Short Haired.. With Glasses. Have a Medium Oppai And The Most of All She is A Loli xD |
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| All those traits that the OP is talking about - yes, those are some signs for complexity...but also their execution is really important. Lets take your typical live action detective show protagonist: 40+, divorced, middle life crisis, burned out, drinking problems... The guy has layers, contradictions, realistic behaviour...is this automatically makes him complex? Naaah. He is stock footage, trope, a cliche even. This archetype is overdone, thus we need more deepness to him. The easiest method to detect complex characters is to compare them to other characters. Like "Is X more complex than Y or not? Is those differences meaningful for the story?". |
alshuSep 14, 2019 4:02 AM
AbsurdistOtaku said: What does, "personality turns 180 degrees" mean? The 2nd type is something that always exists in real life in all of us, but rarely in anime. For example, in highschool, I had a friend on the bus who was very quiet, calm, kept to himself. But in lunch, when he was with his other friends, he turned into an animal; they'd start screaming and banging on the table; we act differently around certain people. It means something extreme happened to the mc: A dear/best friend, lover or family member died, was maimed or crippled, example (Ouma Shuu). He was overcome with grief and became oppressive and cold. Second type refers to a character that only reveals his true self in particular situations, example is Roberta from "Black Lagoon". She was a clumsy and inept maid, that at times makes elementary mistakes and errors. However when she sensed danger or hostility she reverts back to a soldier (with all that encompasses). |
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| Koko (Jormungand) is a complex character born as the daughter of an arms dealer and along with her older brother carries out the family business of selling weapons. She is bright and cheerful even in the midst of battle, cares about her crew a lot, sleepwalks, and can't hold her liquor. |
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach"  |
| TL;DR: I agree that complex character to me is one with a lot of different traits that are all required to make up a character. However, I disagree that a character needs to be realistic or contradictory to be complex. I think a complex character is similar to cooking. Cooking becomes more difficult when more ingredients are added to the recipe, and you have to make sure each is prepared properly in order for the dish to come together as a cohesive unit. A character can be realistic but, in my opinion, not complex. The main characters from "I Want to eat your pancreas" are realistic, but, to me, only one step above a 1-D character. That's like eggs on toast; it's tasty, but still nothing more than an egg and a piece of bread. A character can be contradictory to their personality but, in my opinion, not be complex. Kagura Souma (Fruits Basket), for example, does things that are contradictory but, in the end, she's nothing more than a bodere. That's like chocolate; you may find a special filling inside, but it's still just a piece of chocolate with paste squirted in. Nagito Komaeda from Danganronpa, in my opinion, is one of the most complex characters I've seen. However,you will never meet someone like him on the street, and his motives were said early on and maintained. But, he's still complex because there are a lot of various ingredients in his recipe, and a lot of work needs to be put in to it to make him tasty. He's the Baked Alaska of characters. To make by scratch you need the ingredients for the cake, the ice cream, AND the meringue. And then after a bunch of mixing, baking, assembling, freezing, and re-assembling, you have to put a flame on it. A lot of work, effort, and detail for an ice cream cake. |
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| As a hollow "light novel protagonist" wherein I can insert myself and vicariously experience the joy of having a large harem that sexually harasses me to compensate for the extremely small size of my real life penis. Since I am layers, and layers of complexity this automatically makes this character super complicated in my eyes. |
 It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
alshu said: The easiest method to detect complex characters is to compare them to other characters. Like "Is X more complex than Y or not? Is those differences meaningful for the story?". This is a great example of how complexity is experienced indirectly. @Peaceful_Critic @MelissaRedburm @CHLO_JO007 This idea of complexity as pure quantity of traits/layers misses the point that characters are not isolated personalities, personality is their very inclusion in a social community and context. So a character can have one trait and still be complex because their social inscription is complex. @Sakurai_Aoi The argument above is also my argument for why simple archetypes can still be complex. |
| @Peaceful_Critic I mean a character cannot be isolated from their story without losing their complexity. |
Peaceful_Critic said: Safeanew said: Ah, I see. Well, characters often change to different stories and context in episodic shows, so do you think it's possible that characters can still be complex then? @Peaceful_Critic I mean a character cannot be isolated from their story without losing their complexity. Yeah, my point is more that there is no formula to write a complex character seperate from writing a complex story. |
| I think it's hard to define, and yet quite easy to determine on a case by case analysis. It's not JUST personality, like some people seem to be thinking. It's how that personality interacts with the world around them, and in turn, how those elements affect their personality. |
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| @Sakurai_Aoi Yeah I missread that. This about lacking depth, I wonder if you agree that this can be seen by comparing how characters speak. Some shows I claim that every character speaks the same way, for example the first episodes of Kenja no Mago the characters speak exactly the same way even when they are quite different types of people. |
| Simply if the character have 2 or more personalities, backgrounds can help too. |
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| If i like them then they're Complex, and if i don't like them then they're One-dimensional, duh. obvious question op. Okay, on a more serious note now. I think character are complex when we actually see their "moral code" and how his circumstance in the story troubles him because of it. For example: (Slight durarara spoiler about shizuo) It's a simple character built on one quirky habit. The result is a very entertaining character with many room for the story to develops. |
| "This is boring...I'm bored..." |
Much as I admire Tolkien, and I do admire Tolkien — he’s been a huge influence on me, and his Lord of the Rings is the mountain that leans over every other fantasy written since and shaped all of modern fantasy — there are things about it, the whole concept of the Dark Lord, and good guys battling bad guys, Good versus Evil, while brilliantly handled in Tolkien, in the hands of many Tolkien successors, it has become kind of a cartoon. We don’t need any more Dark Lords, we don’t need any more, ‘Here are the good guys, they’re in white, there are the bad guys, they’re in black. And also, they’re really ugly, the bad guys. It is certainly a genuine, legitimate topic as the core of fantasy, but I think the battle between Good and Evil is waged within the individual human hearts. We all have good in us and we all have evil in us, and we may do a wonderful good act on Tuesday and a horrible, selfish, bad act on Wednesday, and to me, that’s the great human drama of fiction. I believe in gray characters, as I’ve said before. We all have good and evil in us and there are very few pure paragons and there are very few orcs. A villain is a hero of the other side, as someone said once, and I think there’s a great deal of truth to that, and that’s the interesting thing. In the case of war, that kind of situation, so I think some of that is definitely what I’m aiming at. (GRR Martin) That's basically it: a character with a credible individual motivation and in conflict with him/herself over a dilemma. |
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| Usually, anime characters are not complex at all. It's quite easy to pinpoint the complex ones, usually associated with complex shows. |
| Enigmas. 100%. And the way the characters react and interact with others. They definitely shouldn't be read like an open book, nor should "secrets" be told through general backstories and flashbacks. That's a cheap way out. Enigmas stay enigmas, or there's a whole lot to describe behind them. And no... people who have twisted or multiple personalities are not complex, many are irrational and edgy and it's a way to make an excuse for not having a proper character with a proper personality without it randomly changing. That is bad writing. |
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| Being realistic is being complex imo, characters that love, hate, acting or not acting based on feelling, being happy or sad, some kind of goal (ot lack of it), hipocrisy, having doubs, being overcome by some situation, being unpredictable, etc etc. Alll the things that makes us human is what makes a character complex. Kruszer said: Koko (Jormungand) is a complex character born as the daughter of an arms dealer and along with her older brother carries out the family business of selling weapons. She is bright and cheerful even in the midst of battle, cares about her crew a lot, sleepwalks, and can't hold her liquor. Aka, an edgy character with a bright personality and a darky past... sorry, but I have no idea how you think that she is complex, especially considering how the character was developed during the show. |
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DaCraziGuy said: Being realistic is being complex imo, characters that love, hate, acting or not acting based on feelling, being happy or sad, some kind of goal (ot lack of it), hipocrisy, having doubs, being overcome by some situation, being unpredictable, etc etc. Alll the things that makes us human is what makes a character complex. Kruszer said: Koko (Jormungand) is a complex character born as the daughter of an arms dealer and along with her older brother carries out the family business of selling weapons. She is bright and cheerful even in the midst of battle, cares about her crew a lot, sleepwalks, and can't hold her liquor. Aka, an edgy character with a bright personality and a darky past... sorry, but I have no idea how you think that she is complex, especially considering how the character was developed during the show. Op wanted layers and contradictions and I just finished a rewatch of that. Speaking of I don't want to hear anti-edgy comments from someone called DaCraziGuy. LOL |
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach" |
Kruszer said: I like edgy stuff, I don't like lazy edgy stuff. Using backstory for building up a dark atmosphere when there is no dark development is lazy and poor writting, that was my point.DaCraziGuy said: Being realistic is being complex imo, characters that love, hate, acting or not acting based on feelling, being happy or sad, some kind of goal (ot lack of it), hipocrisy, having doubs, being overcome by some situation, being unpredictable, etc etc. Alll the things that makes us human is what makes a character complex. Aka, an edgy character with a bright personality and a darky past... sorry, but I have no idea how you think that she is complex, especially considering how the character was developed during the show. Op wanted layers and contradictions and I just finished a rewatch of that. Speaking of I don't want to hear anti-edgy comments from someone called DaCraziGuy. LOL Also, I don't see any layers nor contractions, Koko always had the same actitude since the beginning and the relationships among the characters were pretty static. But OK, I guess that having a funny nickname (at least for me) means that my opinion is worthless. |
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DaCraziGuy said: I like edgy stuff, I don't like lazy edgy stuff. Using backstory for building up a dark atmosphere when there is no dark development is lazy and poor writting, that was my point. If you say so, I don't differentiate between the two when the result is the same. |
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach" |
| Complexity is a continuum. It's basically a measure of how many details there are about a character. Basically, how many sorts of thoughts that can go through their head that we know about, or how much we understand of who they are. One can compare it to getting to know a person. Complexity of a character is like how deeply you "know" the character. It doesn't necessarily have to include any particular sort of thing -- for example, it doesn't have to include a character flaw, though it often does. A character who feels like a plot device isn't very complex, the same way you don't really know a store cashier with whom you never have a conversation. (On the other hand, if you get to know them, and find out that they like baseball, are very fond of the home team in the town they lived in as a child, you've added depth to your familiarity -- or complexity to the character. We can go further -- maybe the person/character has never really been able to find stable employment, and does this cashier job part-time to make ends meet, while also trying to find love. And there's probably little things in that give them joy in their life, even though things seem to be looking down. and so on.) |
GlennMagusHarveySep 14, 2019 7:52 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Kruszer said: I don't get how you can get the same result with something like Berserk compared to something like something as your average shounen MC with a dark past and a bright story. But ok.DaCraziGuy said: I like edgy stuff, I don't like lazy edgy stuff. Using backstory for building up a dark atmosphere when there is no dark development is lazy and poor writting, that was my point. If you say so, I don't differentiate between the two when the result is the same. |
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| 1st an imperfect world that challenges the character beliefs 2nd a character with strong belief system(regardless if their wrong or right to you) 3rd some of those beliefs arent compatible with others that the character holds, like removing evil from the world without removing said evil from the world(Batman) 4th the character beliefs must come from conclusions he reached from any experience...that way his personality and beliefs are connected and make sense(Sasuke being an emo and disregarding the wellbeing of others to reach his goals) Theres probably more but these are the ones that came to my mind. Btw the characters that I mentioned here arent complex the aspects that I was mentioning are, and theyve got them |
JustN0tMeSep 17, 2019 12:11 PM
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| I guess complex characters are just characters that have morals but can still commit bad actions or take bad decisions, without becoming a villain or being despicable It's often "grey" characters, characters that we like and appreciate despite some of their behaviour The best way to describe my point of view is to give a few examples : - Lelouch Lamperouge, from Code Geass - Gon Freecss, from Hunter x Hunter - Solf J. Kimblee, from Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood - Reinhard von Lohengramm, from Legend of the Galactic Heroes (could also mention Paul Oberstein) It doesn't have to be grey characters too, complex characters are just characters without a "one-dimensional" personallity I guess every well-written character could be described as a complex character too So it excludes a lot of characters, like Ichigo Kurosaki, Naruto Uzumaki, every Fairy Tail character A complex character can't be just a good guy or a bad guy. In fact, a complex character just needs one thing : they must feels human. I guess I could state as an example most of Gintama characters, but, fortunately, there's a lot of other anime characters that fit this description |
| I like to think of complex characters as "squares." Imagine a left-right line represents the number of traits a character has, or how many adjectives can be used to describe the character. The longer this line is, the more traits that can be attributed to the character. Then imagine an up-down line that starts at the left end of the first line, and this second line represents how much attention is given to developing these traits, creating nuance, simply involving the character in the narrative. The longer this line, the more attention/development the character receives. If both are super short, then the character is incredibly simple. If the trait line is wayyy longer than the attention/development line, the character feels like a resume, just descriptors. And in vice-versa, the character feels one-dimensional, because while they were given a lot of attention they weren't given the breadth of characterization to feel genuine. So complexity is when both of these imaginary lines are roughly the same length, and that length is "reasonably long," making a square. Plenty of characters can be made interesting without a ton of screen time so long as their development is handled well, and a ton of traits can be demonstrated quickly through effective direction. Complexity is when a character not only possesses the breadth of characteristics to feel varied and real, but also a matching depth of these characteristics to feel nuanced and developed. tl:dr read the manga |
| I'd define a complex character as someone who isn't very easy to understand. -They aren't the typical run-of-the-mill generic character with the same pressures and problems as most people. -Also, it depends on their beliefs as well. If they see and believe things that are different from most people/anime characters then and have their own UNIQUE way of living life. |
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