New
Oct 9, 2017 2:47 AM
#51
EMChamp said: -It is explicitly stated on the "Yosuga no Sora" wiki page under their character bios that both Haru and Sora do not know how to swim. In fact, earlier in Nao's arc, Haruka almost drowns/dies in the beach scene. The wiki is lying. Sora is proven to be able to swim in the visual novel. https://i.imgur.com/RxCNSUm.png |
Mar 14, 2019 1:20 PM
#52
| I just finished this anime, and I will say this. Although there is an abundance of evidence pointing towards the fact that they very well could be dead, I’m still going to say that they are alive. But one thing I noticed was when Akira was talking about the lake and saying that it has mystical powers and can make you reborn. When they are on the rain in the last scene they are wearing the same outfits as when the anime started. Haru also has a suitcase, but when their friends went to look theough the windows, it looked as disheveled as when Sora and him left it before the lake scene. Also, Sora’s teddy Bear was in pieces laying on the bed, but it’s shown completely intact and by her side on the train. Neither one of them could swim, but there was a scene where Nao was teaching Haru the basics at the pool. I don’t think either death would just be swept under the rug, since their parents seemed to be widely known around town. And even if the text was fake, their aunt and uncle were supposedly coming to take them away, so I’m pretty sure there would be some light shed on their disappearance once they showed up and it seemed like it had been a little while from what their friends claimed when they met up. And just, that’s a lot of sneaking and lying to your friends when you know the truth, I just don’t see that happening. BUT... let’s say that they did die. Maybe the fact that they were wearing the same clothes at the end, and his bearing a suitcase was symbolic, showing us that the lake did give them a chance to be reborn in another life and start over. When he asked were they alive, Sora didn’t answer him. He was also saying that maybe it would be better for them if it were that way, if they could be somewhere else or whatever he said when they were drowning. I honestly feel like it could go either way, and there is evidence that supports each theory. |
Apr 18, 2019 1:42 AM
#53
| 4/18/2019 still searching for haruka no sora , were they got married and a child is on the way ............. gawd help me seach it . |
May 11, 2019 2:52 PM
#54
| They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. |
LekkainMay 27, 2019 5:43 AM
May 27, 2019 11:52 PM
#55
| Does anyone else think the twins died at the end? Because: 1. The stuffed rabbit was seen still ripped up in sora's bedroom, when their friends visited their house after they supposedly left. Then when you see them on the train in the end, the rabbit is in one piece and with sora. A rabbit that she keeps as a memento from her mother doesn't seem to be something so easily and quickly replaced. 2. The text message that Kazuha got, you can see there wasn't an email address on it, even though she was reading an email. Yes, in Japan it's easier to text through email than sms. why? you may ask. It might just be easier to cope with loss of two friends, if they all just believe they moved away. They said it themselves, sora and haru were the glue that kept their circle together. It would have been devastating to suddenly lose people like that. Also when she's reading the text, she looks away in the typical anime trope fashion, signaling to the audience that she's lying. 3. Sora and haru don't know how to swim. Even if Sora knew how to swim in the VN, it's evident she couldn't in the anime. She started drowning the second she got into the deep end. There also wasn't any scenes in the show that indicated she could swim and Haru told Nao he needed swimming lessons. Even if Sora even did know how to swim, how exactly would a character frequently described as weak and frail, be able to carry her larger brother out of the water and up some steps when he's fully unconscious? Especially with the fact that when they both started sinking, Sora was powerless to keep them afloat. |
Jun 17, 2019 5:04 PM
#56
Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... |
Jul 2, 2019 5:23 AM
#57
Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. |
Jul 2, 2019 4:40 PM
#58
Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! |
Jul 2, 2019 5:15 PM
#59
Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! |
Jul 2, 2019 6:29 PM
#60
Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! |
Jul 3, 2019 4:55 AM
#61
Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Oh, okay...sorry, I didn't mean to crush your views so badly. But since I did, umm, sucks to be you, I guess? Jokes aside, I'm not angry at you or anything; I just felt weirded out by your dicotomic attitude. My only intent was to post what I learnt/knew about the ending and see the reactions (assuming there were going to be any). Given your responses, it worked, in a way. Admittedly, though, you're right about the fact that I could've been more consistent with my posts instead of leaving clues all over MAL. |
LekkainJul 3, 2019 5:00 AM
Jul 3, 2019 3:24 PM
#62
Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Oh, okay...sorry, I didn't mean to crush your views so badly. But since I did, umm, sucks to be you, I guess? Jokes aside, I'm not angry at you or anything; I just felt weirded out by your dicotomic attitude. My only intent was to post what I learnt/knew about the ending and see the reactions (assuming there were going to be any). Given your responses, it worked, in a way. Admittedly, though, you're right about the fact that I could've been more consistent with my posts instead of leaving clues all over MAL. Ha! Point taken for using my own words against me. Sorry again for calling you a sucker, but because you just did the same, even if you were joking, I suppose now we could say we're even! That said, despite their fate having been determined, I still haven't had enough of this pairing. Not yet, at any rate. I shall now take my leave to search after the following 2 dawns for possible fanfictions! Therefore, I salute you, "perfectly-ambiguous-ending destroyer"! |
Jul 3, 2019 6:10 PM
#63
Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Oh, okay...sorry, I didn't mean to crush your views so badly. But since I did, umm, sucks to be you, I guess? Jokes aside, I'm not angry at you or anything; I just felt weirded out by your dicotomic attitude. My only intent was to post what I learnt/knew about the ending and see the reactions (assuming there were going to be any). Given your responses, it worked, in a way. Admittedly, though, you're right about the fact that I could've been more consistent with my posts instead of leaving clues all over MAL. Ha! Point taken for using my own words against me. Sorry again for calling you a sucker, but because you just did the same, even if you were joking, I suppose now we could say we're even! That said, despite their fate having been determined, I still haven't had enough of this pairing. Not yet, at any rate. I shall now take my leave to search after the following 2 dawns for possible fanfictions! Therefore, I salute you, "perfectly-ambiguous-ending destroyer"! That's an oddly specific way to say you'll be searching for fics; also, what's up with naming me as if I were an anime villain?! You're making me sound like an extra outcast monster from Power Rangers! There aren't many Yosuga no Sora fanfictions out there; there is one, however, that is currently ongoing and pretty well written. It's on chapter 12 at the moment and a new chapter update regularly occurs about once a month. The length of the chapters though more than makes up for the wait. Try it out, that should keep you busy. It's easy to find, usually amongst the first few results when searching for these specific fanfictions. I won't spoil you its name though, since I already feel so guilty for spoiling you the ending of the anime... Good luck in your search! |
Jul 3, 2019 6:29 PM
#64
| A lot of people arguing for them being alive, but it seems pretty obvious to me that they are dead and that this is the intention of the author. I read most replies here and has seen nothing that convinces me otherwise. |
It's only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. |
Jul 4, 2019 5:10 AM
#65
Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Oh, okay...sorry, I didn't mean to crush your views so badly. But since I did, umm, sucks to be you, I guess? Jokes aside, I'm not angry at you or anything; I just felt weirded out by your dicotomic attitude. My only intent was to post what I learnt/knew about the ending and see the reactions (assuming there were going to be any). Given your responses, it worked, in a way. Admittedly, though, you're right about the fact that I could've been more consistent with my posts instead of leaving clues all over MAL. Ha! Point taken for using my own words against me. Sorry again for calling you a sucker, but because you just did the same, even if you were joking, I suppose now we could say we're even! That said, despite their fate having been determined, I still haven't had enough of this pairing. Not yet, at any rate. I shall now take my leave to search after the following 2 dawns for possible fanfictions! Therefore, I salute you, "perfectly-ambiguous-ending destroyer"! That's an oddly specific way to say you'll be searching for fics; also, what's up with naming me as if I were an anime villain?! You're making me sound like an extra outcast monster from Power Rangers! There aren't many Yosuga no Sora fanfictions out there; there is one, however, that is currently ongoing and pretty well written. It's on chapter 12 at the moment and a new chapter update regularly occurs about once a month. The length of the chapters though more than makes up for the wait. Try it out, that should keep you busy. It's easy to find, usually amongst the first few results when searching for these specific fanfictions. I won't spoil you its name though, since I already feel so guilty for spoiling you the ending of the anime... Good luck in your search! You and that damn sharp tongue of yours...Assuming you aren't leading me on a wild goose chase, I'll check it out. Can't say I like the idea of having to wait a month for each update, but whatever works I guess. |
Jul 4, 2019 5:13 AM
#66
Jokuc said: A lot of people arguing for them being alive, but it seems pretty obvious to me that they are dead and that this is the intention of the author. I read most replies here and has seen nothing that convinces me otherwise. I'm glad you at least got to preserve your take on the finale. Gotta envy your consistency! |
Jul 4, 2019 8:35 AM
#67
Beltzebrute said: Jokuc said: A lot of people arguing for them being alive, but it seems pretty obvious to me that they are dead and that this is the intention of the author. I read most replies here and has seen nothing that convinces me otherwise. I'm glad you at least got to preserve your take on the finale. Gotta envy your consistency! I mean there are a whole bunch of reasons to why I think that is, but just the name of the anime is enough. It even tells you how the show ends! |
It's only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. |
Jul 4, 2019 8:40 AM
#68
Jokuc said: Beltzebrute said: Jokuc said: A lot of people arguing for them being alive, but it seems pretty obvious to me that they are dead and that this is the intention of the author. I read most replies here and has seen nothing that convinces me otherwise. I'm glad you at least got to preserve your take on the finale. Gotta envy your consistency! I mean there are a whole bunch of reasons to why I think that is, but just the name of the anime is enough. It even tells you how the show ends! That's what I thought too at first regarding the name of the show. Then I remembered it was the same name of the manga, where they live, so I couldn't keep it into consideration. |
Sep 5, 2019 2:29 PM
#69
PerlaNemesis said: They are alive as it was shown at the end. The simplist answer, yet the most effective; this topic is just dumb. I really cannot grasp how a few not-so-certain hints are enough to prove they are dead. -The Akira/Kazuha fake text plot has been debunked through logic; not only that, but Mrs Violinist was asked a very specific question: whether she had received 'any more messages' from the two, to which she denied, averting her look. If she was lying, it was about having received other texts, which means she would have received them, but hidden them from everyone else; why do that? Her averting her gaze was played for extra drama effect and nothing more. Happens a lot in many other anime I've seen and videogames with 'anime visuals', if you can call it that. It's pretty annoying, actually. If she had really faked the e-mail, she wouldn't have been so specific about the details either: for example, why say 'we went to live with an artisan who had connections with our parents' when she could have simply written 'our relatives took us in'? It's evident the email is real and from harem boy. -The sentence uttered by Haruka regarding whether they were alive or not seems to be a question expressing doubt, at least until you look at it carefully: it wasn't really a 'question', more like a reassurance. He said the sentence not as 'Are we alive?', but rather, "We're alive, right?" as if to reassure his sister/lover/whatever-she-is that it was all alright now, since they were both okay, together, and the worst hadn't happened. The fact that he said it with a smile, while she smiled back to him, silently confirming his assertion, just confirms it further: no 'oral' answer was needed, they were alive, and they both knew it. -The bunny on the train is pointless and confusing, no matter how I look at it: if you consider them alive, it seems like a cheap rip-off of the real torn up one which held sentimental value to the sister. If you like to think the train is taking them to heaven and they're dead, the bunny makes even less sense than if they were alive; not only because it itself is just a copy of the real torn up one Shrine girl saw, but also, why would she need a memento of the mother if she is going to meet her in heaven? Or is it that the twins' parents never got to heaven, because their train broke down? Am I overthinking this? Also, where did they get that pochi box on the train? Was it from a holy vending machine? Saint's Bar? The divine Supermarket? How did they change clothes after the lake scene? And most importantly...why would they have a damn suitcase with them if they're travelling to the afterlife?! Do gods discriminate those who bring no change of clothes?! Or did all this stuff magically materialize inside the not-so-supernatural-looking train? This whole anime was rushed: between the romances seeming unrealistic because they were too quick and the weird pacing, and the fact that apparently they cut quite a few scenes from the original source material, the only love story that sounded the most believable was, ironically, the incest one. I believe that because of this, the bunny was indeed an unintentional mistake; or they just felt like trolling us. I'm not even going to mention all the proof of them being alive, since someone else has already done that for me. Needless to say, it's more than enough to make it painfully obvious that they survived the lake. The only thing missing to make it even more obvious would have been the train conductor saying: "Next stop: Sweet Home Alabama!" I say painfully, because I for one would've preferred it if they had died in the end; it would have made for a much more bitter and better ending, considering the seriousness of the topic. Unfortunately, I'm not that blind as to let my wish for a more dramatic ending cloud my judgment regarding what actually happened, unless someone is able to convince me otherwise...somehow. If they had cut out the second part of the lake scene, you know, the one where they were shown to be alive, and removed that suitcase from Paradise Express along with the text, then I would have believed them dead. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. Note: all these considerations are coming from someone who's never tried the VN or manga of this...and probably never will; is it true that they also live there? That said, this anime still deserves a solid 8: the visuals were good, the music was excellent, albeit sometimes repetitive, the arcs got better and slightly darker the more they progressed and they were able to present the last arc in a way that made it serious/dramatic/realistic. It would have scored higher had they -A) killed off the twins at the end, and -B) made each arc, especially the maid one, which felt so out of place at the end of each episode, longer. 8 is still pretty good though. Not the most memorable of animes I've watched though: saw it 7 years ago, so I had to rewatch it recently to remember it...I only found out about the death theory 3 days ago, by randomly spotting comments here. Just goes to show how not once, but twice it was too obvious that they survived, and it wasn't until external intervention that I ended up on this poll page. I'll continue this...no, wait...I can finally rest my case. |
Saturos-GSSep 7, 2019 2:41 PM
Sep 7, 2019 2:45 PM
#70
Jokuc said: Beltzebrute said: Jokuc said: A lot of people arguing for them being alive, but it seems pretty obvious to me that they are dead and that this is the intention of the author. I read most replies here and has seen nothing that convinces me otherwise. I'm glad you at least got to preserve your take on the finale. Gotta envy your consistency! I mean there are a whole bunch of reasons to why I think that is, but just the name of the anime is enough. It even tells you how the show ends! Then please do enlighten me regarding such reasons. I see them as alive, but I'd like to believe them dead; maybe there is something I missed; something that can persuade me to click that 'No' button, since I haven't voted yet. |
Sep 7, 2019 2:53 PM
#71
Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? |
Sep 8, 2019 7:58 AM
#72
Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! |
Sep 9, 2019 4:03 AM
#73
Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. |
Sep 9, 2019 2:06 PM
#74
Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. Well sooorrrryyyy if my observational skills suck! But the last thing I expected was, no offence, for a Sri-Lankan, if that is your nationality, to mention one of our poets. How did you know of him? Scratch that. How did you form such precise thoughts on the ending within less than 3 days? And how are you so sure about it; the ending, I mean? |
Sep 9, 2019 4:14 PM
#75
Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. Well sooorrrryyyy if my observational skills suck! But the last thing I expected was, no offence, for a Sri-Lankan, if that is your nationality, to mention one of our poets. How did you know of him? Scratch that. How did you form such precise thoughts on the ending within less than 3 days? And how are you so sure about it; the ending, I mean? I teach Philosophy; Nietzsche's Ubermensch is often compared to D'Annunzio's Superman. I am expected to know one just as well as the other. Just as I am expected to process thoughts as quickly as possible. I apply this to anime as well; you can give a variety of interpretations to some elements of the ending: the lack of an answer, a look which may hide a lie behind it, a torn up object then magically restored in the following scenes...if we assume it to be the same object, which is unlikely, considering one was torn up at home, the other one was on the train unscathed; they were two different bunnies. The one thing we cannot interpret is two sopping wet people lying on stairs with a water trail leading to them. Unless you are somehow able to prove they are zombies, then such beings are still alive. Everything else, every interpretation after that, I base on that scene. That is why I'm sure of it. That isn't to say I am unwilling to change my thoughts: I'm still hoping someone can whack my brain a little with some good reasoning and convince me otherwise...somehow. That's why I still haven't voted, even though I'm currently certain of the outcome. |
Saturos-GSSep 15, 2019 5:51 AM
Sep 10, 2019 3:24 AM
#76
Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. Well sooorrrryyyy if my observational skills suck! But the last thing I expected was, no offence, for a Sri-Lankan, if that is your nationality, to mention one of our poets. How did you know of him? Scratch that. How did you form such precise thoughts on the ending within less than 3 days? And how are you so sure about it; the ending, I mean? I teach Philosophy; Nietzsche's Ubermensch is often compared to D'Annunzio's Superman. I am expected to know one just as well as the other. Just as I am expected to process thoughts as quickly as possible. I apply this to anime as well; you can give a variety of interpretations to some elements of the ending: the lack of an answer, a look which may hide a lie behind it, a torn up object then magically restored in the following scenes...if we assume it to be the same object. The one thing we cannot interpret is two sopping wet people lying on stairs with a water trail leading to them. Unless you are somehow able to prove they are zombies, then such beings are still alive. Everything else, every interpretation after that, I base on that scene. That is why I'm sure of it. That isn't to say I am unwilling to change my thoughts: I'm still hoping someone can whack my brain a little with some good reasoning and convince me otherwise...somehow. That's why I still haven't voted, even though I'm currently certain of the outcome. I feel like I'm being schooled again... "Still haven't voted, but sure of the outcome?" Aren't you just delaying the inevitable? I'd be surprised if 1 guy was able to change YOUR thoughts! |
Sep 10, 2019 12:26 PM
#77
Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. Well sooorrrryyyy if my observational skills suck! But the last thing I expected was, no offence, for a Sri-Lankan, if that is your nationality, to mention one of our poets. How did you know of him? Scratch that. How did you form such precise thoughts on the ending within less than 3 days? And how are you so sure about it; the ending, I mean? I teach Philosophy; Nietzsche's Ubermensch is often compared to D'Annunzio's Superman. I am expected to know one just as well as the other. Just as I am expected to process thoughts as quickly as possible. I apply this to anime as well; you can give a variety of interpretations to some elements of the ending: the lack of an answer, a look which may hide a lie behind it, a torn up object then magically restored in the following scenes...if we assume it to be the same object. The one thing we cannot interpret is two sopping wet people lying on stairs with a water trail leading to them. Unless you are somehow able to prove they are zombies, then such beings are still alive. Everything else, every interpretation after that, I base on that scene. That is why I'm sure of it. That isn't to say I am unwilling to change my thoughts: I'm still hoping someone can whack my brain a little with some good reasoning and convince me otherwise...somehow. That's why I still haven't voted, even though I'm currently certain of the outcome. I feel like I'm being schooled again... "Still haven't voted, but sure of the outcome?" Aren't you just delaying the inevitable? I'd be surprised if 1 guy was able to change YOUR thoughts! Witty reply, I'm glad you noticed the discrepancy in both my thought process and phrasing. Though I'd rather wait until the end of the week before voting, in hopes that someone may cause me to doubt myself. Until then, I have a few brains to fill. |
Sep 11, 2019 2:18 PM
#78
Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. Well sooorrrryyyy if my observational skills suck! But the last thing I expected was, no offence, for a Sri-Lankan, if that is your nationality, to mention one of our poets. How did you know of him? Scratch that. How did you form such precise thoughts on the ending within less than 3 days? And how are you so sure about it; the ending, I mean? I teach Philosophy; Nietzsche's Ubermensch is often compared to D'Annunzio's Superman. I am expected to know one just as well as the other. Just as I am expected to process thoughts as quickly as possible. I apply this to anime as well; you can give a variety of interpretations to some elements of the ending: the lack of an answer, a look which may hide a lie behind it, a torn up object then magically restored in the following scenes...if we assume it to be the same object. The one thing we cannot interpret is two sopping wet people lying on stairs with a water trail leading to them. Unless you are somehow able to prove they are zombies, then such beings are still alive. Everything else, every interpretation after that, I base on that scene. That is why I'm sure of it. That isn't to say I am unwilling to change my thoughts: I'm still hoping someone can whack my brain a little with some good reasoning and convince me otherwise...somehow. That's why I still haven't voted, even though I'm currently certain of the outcome. I feel like I'm being schooled again... "Still haven't voted, but sure of the outcome?" Aren't you just delaying the inevitable? I'd be surprised if 1 guy was able to change YOUR thoughts! Witty reply, I'm glad you noticed the discrepancy in both my thought process and phrasing. Though I'd rather wait until the end of the week before voting, in hopes that someone may cause me to doubt myself. Until then, I have a few brains to fill. Then start by filling your own brain with some of this info: the second half of the lake scene definitely isn't their afterlife, given all the facts that prove otherwise, but for all we know it could be a dying hallucination or some sort of recreated reality to give them a chance to confess to each other before they are sent off. The text could still very well be a fake, given Kazuha's attitude; maybe she found the bodies on her own and got rid of them through her wealth. In the opening theme, we see Sora at the bottom of the lake becoming of purple hue. Purple in Japanese culture represents nobility; on a more general note though, it can depict magic, as in the same magic that was perhaps preparing/taking her soul to the afterlife. Sora not answering could be because she honestly didn't know, or because she knew there was something fishy on how they survived. You bring up a good point about the bunny not making sense/being relevant to their death, so I won't address it. However, in the same train scene, which is exclusive to the anime, all you can see is clouds. Perhaps they are going to the distant sky (name of the episode), as in...that of heaven. Even if this doesn't happen to convince you they're dead, it should at least make you consider the possibility the ending was left ambiguous. |
Sep 12, 2019 4:04 AM
#79
Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. Well sooorrrryyyy if my observational skills suck! But the last thing I expected was, no offence, for a Sri-Lankan, if that is your nationality, to mention one of our poets. How did you know of him? Scratch that. How did you form such precise thoughts on the ending within less than 3 days? And how are you so sure about it; the ending, I mean? I teach Philosophy; Nietzsche's Ubermensch is often compared to D'Annunzio's Superman. I am expected to know one just as well as the other. Just as I am expected to process thoughts as quickly as possible. I apply this to anime as well; you can give a variety of interpretations to some elements of the ending: the lack of an answer, a look which may hide a lie behind it, a torn up object then magically restored in the following scenes...if we assume it to be the same object. The one thing we cannot interpret is two sopping wet people lying on stairs with a water trail leading to them. Unless you are somehow able to prove they are zombies, then such beings are still alive. Everything else, every interpretation after that, I base on that scene. That is why I'm sure of it. That isn't to say I am unwilling to change my thoughts: I'm still hoping someone can whack my brain a little with some good reasoning and convince me otherwise...somehow. That's why I still haven't voted, even though I'm currently certain of the outcome. I feel like I'm being schooled again... "Still haven't voted, but sure of the outcome?" Aren't you just delaying the inevitable? I'd be surprised if 1 guy was able to change YOUR thoughts! Witty reply, I'm glad you noticed the discrepancy in both my thought process and phrasing. Though I'd rather wait until the end of the week before voting, in hopes that someone may cause me to doubt myself. Until then, I have a few brains to fill. Then start by filling your own brain with some of this info: the second half of the lake scene definitely isn't their afterlife, given all the facts that prove otherwise, but for all we know it could be a dying hallucination or some sort of recreated reality to give them a chance to confess to each other before they are sent off. The text could still very well be a fake, given Kazuha's attitude; maybe she found the bodies on her own and got rid of them through her wealth. In the opening theme, we see Sora at the bottom of the lake becoming of purple hue. Purple in Japanese culture represents nobility; on a more general note though, it can depict magic, as in the same magic that was perhaps preparing/taking her soul to the afterlife. Sora not answering could be because she honestly didn't know, or because she knew there was something fishy on how they survived. You bring up a good point about the bunny not making sense/being relevant to their death, so I won't address it. However, in the same train scene, which is exclusive to the anime, all you can see is clouds. Perhaps they are going to the distant sky (name of the episode), as in...that of heaven. Even if this doesn't happen to convince you they're dead, it should at least make you consider the possibility the ending was left ambiguous. Why are you of all people responding? Haven't you already given your proof regarding them being alive? If so, have you already changed your mind on their fate? Or is there more to this? I won't address your points now simply because I'm out of time. I will reply later though, so be ready. |
Sep 12, 2019 6:10 AM
#80
Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. Well sooorrrryyyy if my observational skills suck! But the last thing I expected was, no offence, for a Sri-Lankan, if that is your nationality, to mention one of our poets. How did you know of him? Scratch that. How did you form such precise thoughts on the ending within less than 3 days? And how are you so sure about it; the ending, I mean? I teach Philosophy; Nietzsche's Ubermensch is often compared to D'Annunzio's Superman. I am expected to know one just as well as the other. Just as I am expected to process thoughts as quickly as possible. I apply this to anime as well; you can give a variety of interpretations to some elements of the ending: the lack of an answer, a look which may hide a lie behind it, a torn up object then magically restored in the following scenes...if we assume it to be the same object. The one thing we cannot interpret is two sopping wet people lying on stairs with a water trail leading to them. Unless you are somehow able to prove they are zombies, then such beings are still alive. Everything else, every interpretation after that, I base on that scene. That is why I'm sure of it. That isn't to say I am unwilling to change my thoughts: I'm still hoping someone can whack my brain a little with some good reasoning and convince me otherwise...somehow. That's why I still haven't voted, even though I'm currently certain of the outcome. I feel like I'm being schooled again... "Still haven't voted, but sure of the outcome?" Aren't you just delaying the inevitable? I'd be surprised if 1 guy was able to change YOUR thoughts! Witty reply, I'm glad you noticed the discrepancy in both my thought process and phrasing. Though I'd rather wait until the end of the week before voting, in hopes that someone may cause me to doubt myself. Until then, I have a few brains to fill. Then start by filling your own brain with some of this info: the second half of the lake scene definitely isn't their afterlife, given all the facts that prove otherwise, but for all we know it could be a dying hallucination or some sort of recreated reality to give them a chance to confess to each other before they are sent off. The text could still very well be a fake, given Kazuha's attitude; maybe she found the bodies on her own and got rid of them through her wealth. In the opening theme, we see Sora at the bottom of the lake becoming of purple hue. Purple in Japanese culture represents nobility; on a more general note though, it can depict magic, as in the same magic that was perhaps preparing/taking her soul to the afterlife. Sora not answering could be because she honestly didn't know, or because she knew there was something fishy on how they survived. You bring up a good point about the bunny not making sense/being relevant to their death, so I won't address it. However, in the same train scene, which is exclusive to the anime, all you can see is clouds. Perhaps they are going to the distant sky (name of the episode), as in...that of heaven. Even if this doesn't happen to convince you they're dead, it should at least make you consider the possibility the ending was left ambiguous. Why are you of all people responding? Haven't you already given your proof regarding them being alive? If so, have you already changed your mind on their fate? Or is there more to this? I won't address your points now simply because I'm out of time. I will reply later though, so be ready. Changed my mind? Who knows... A little bird just happened to mention your dilemma to me. Well, it was more like a Revan. I mean raven! Raven... You'll get the stupid joke if you check his profile pic. |
Sep 13, 2019 4:23 AM
#81
Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. Well sooorrrryyyy if my observational skills suck! But the last thing I expected was, no offence, for a Sri-Lankan, if that is your nationality, to mention one of our poets. How did you know of him? Scratch that. How did you form such precise thoughts on the ending within less than 3 days? And how are you so sure about it; the ending, I mean? I teach Philosophy; Nietzsche's Ubermensch is often compared to D'Annunzio's Superman. I am expected to know one just as well as the other. Just as I am expected to process thoughts as quickly as possible. I apply this to anime as well; you can give a variety of interpretations to some elements of the ending: the lack of an answer, a look which may hide a lie behind it, a torn up object then magically restored in the following scenes...if we assume it to be the same object. The one thing we cannot interpret is two sopping wet people lying on stairs with a water trail leading to them. Unless you are somehow able to prove they are zombies, then such beings are still alive. Everything else, every interpretation after that, I base on that scene. That is why I'm sure of it. That isn't to say I am unwilling to change my thoughts: I'm still hoping someone can whack my brain a little with some good reasoning and convince me otherwise...somehow. That's why I still haven't voted, even though I'm currently certain of the outcome. I feel like I'm being schooled again... "Still haven't voted, but sure of the outcome?" Aren't you just delaying the inevitable? I'd be surprised if 1 guy was able to change YOUR thoughts! Witty reply, I'm glad you noticed the discrepancy in both my thought process and phrasing. Though I'd rather wait until the end of the week before voting, in hopes that someone may cause me to doubt myself. Until then, I have a few brains to fill. Then start by filling your own brain with some of this info: the second half of the lake scene definitely isn't their afterlife, given all the facts that prove otherwise, but for all we know it could be a dying hallucination or some sort of recreated reality to give them a chance to confess to each other before they are sent off. The text could still very well be a fake, given Kazuha's attitude; maybe she found the bodies on her own and got rid of them through her wealth. In the opening theme, we see Sora at the bottom of the lake becoming of purple hue. Purple in Japanese culture represents nobility; on a more general note though, it can depict magic, as in the same magic that was perhaps preparing/taking her soul to the afterlife. Sora not answering could be because she honestly didn't know, or because she knew there was something fishy on how they survived. You bring up a good point about the bunny not making sense/being relevant to their death, so I won't address it. However, in the same train scene, which is exclusive to the anime, all you can see is clouds. Perhaps they are going to the distant sky (name of the episode), as in...that of heaven. Even if this doesn't happen to convince you they're dead, it should at least make you consider the possibility the ending was left ambiguous. Why are you of all people responding? Haven't you already given your proof regarding them being alive? If so, have you already changed your mind on their fate? Or is there more to this? I won't address your points now simply because I'm out of time. I will reply later though, so be ready. Changed my mind? Who knows... A little bird just happened to mention your dilemma to me. Well, it was more like a Revan. I mean raven! Raven... You'll get the stupid joke if you check his profile pic. Pardon my tardiness in replying, I was busy. Your joke assumes that I know something of Star Wars Expanded Universe, which I just happen to, barely; you're right, it is stupid. Both parties, brother and sister, were active during the second half of the lake scene, since they both renewed their love together. It being a hallucination would mean one of the two was a fake. There's also the issue of where the 'hallucination' would have happened. Harem boy never got a chance to see the stairs where he would have been lying on while chasing after his sister. Sissy on the other hand never noticed the bruise her brother was carrying on his knee. Yet both the elements are present during Lake Scene: Part 2. To put it simply, neither of the two had enough elements for such an accurate hallucination to occur in the first place. A conveniently recreated reality that just happens to have a trail of water leading to them? Next thing you'll tell me the whole Sora arc was just class prez having a bad dream. I used the lake scene as the cause to determine the effect that they are alive; you changed the effect to 'they're dead', but in order to do so had to alter the cause to 'Lake Scene: Part 2 isn't real' with nothing proving that it is fake. Simply put, Lake Scene: Part 2 happened and proves them to be alive. With that out of the way, I could just stop here, since as you said 'the lake scene was enough to prove them alive'. But for completion, I'll address your other points too. Purple magic Sora works more against you than in your favour. That same magic could be what was saving them instead, fulfilling the title 'Lake of Rebirth'. What was reborn wasn't the two of them physically, rather their bond as lovers. Would also mean that sister really didn't know what had saved them, which is why she was hesitant in answering. I still back my claim though that she didn't answer simply because there was no need to. I've already expressed why the text is real and what was up with Mrs Violinist's attitude. As you stated in one of your posts, Shrine girl would have been the first to find the bodies, but found nothing, considering she believed the text; Kazuha wasn't even present during the 'Lake allows you to be reborn' speech Akira gave, meaning that out of all the friends, she's the only one who wouldn't have even been able to guess Sora's location, like the brother did. She found no bodies, in other words. Not that there were any bodies to be found in the first place. Are there also tunnels and road beds when going to heaven? Because I recall the train traveling through a tunnel and on a road bed. The final scene mirrors the first one of the anime almost perfectly; it's called a 'bookend': the difference is that they travelled to the village as brother and sister, but left it as lovers. The fact that only clouds can be seen is due to camera angling, nothing more; also, because anime. Do you have any idea how many characters in anime happen to have only clouds in the background, yet aren't dead? One would think they're floating in the air. It's quite fitting they did it this way in this particular case: the anime is called 'Sky of Connection' after all. The only distant sky they are going to is that of the country the artisan who had connections with their parents lives in. And the name of the episode is simply a play on their names "Haruka na Sora"; is that also the name of what people refer to as the sequel fan disk of the VN? Could be that the name of the last episode is a hint to what happens after the anime: the fan disk, or a season 2 which never occurred; but that is just speculation. I've only heard bits and pieces, but is it true that the name of the last episode is the same as the last chapter of the manga, where they live (so I heard); and that there is also a text which Mrs Violinist receives at the end? If so, that doesn't help the death theory at all. You forgot to address the suitcase. In this particular kind of anime, where each route is given a precise conclusion, there's no such thing as an ambiguous ending. It can only be one: they are either dead, or alive. But you already knew all this, didn't you? You never did change your mind, you simply tried to satisfy a friend's request, playing devil's advocate even if you didn't believe in what you were typing. Each of your sentences wasn't a statement, rather a 'what if' scenario. I appreciate that you tried to sustain a thesis which wasn't yours to begin with; unfortunately, you only ended up strengthening my conviction that they survived. While I am a bit late, as promised, I will be voting now. I shall...Actually, I'm done. |
Saturos-GSSep 15, 2019 4:04 AM
Sep 15, 2019 9:58 AM
#82
Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. Well sooorrrryyyy if my observational skills suck! But the last thing I expected was, no offence, for a Sri-Lankan, if that is your nationality, to mention one of our poets. How did you know of him? Scratch that. How did you form such precise thoughts on the ending within less than 3 days? And how are you so sure about it; the ending, I mean? I teach Philosophy; Nietzsche's Ubermensch is often compared to D'Annunzio's Superman. I am expected to know one just as well as the other. Just as I am expected to process thoughts as quickly as possible. I apply this to anime as well; you can give a variety of interpretations to some elements of the ending: the lack of an answer, a look which may hide a lie behind it, a torn up object then magically restored in the following scenes...if we assume it to be the same object. The one thing we cannot interpret is two sopping wet people lying on stairs with a water trail leading to them. Unless you are somehow able to prove they are zombies, then such beings are still alive. Everything else, every interpretation after that, I base on that scene. That is why I'm sure of it. That isn't to say I am unwilling to change my thoughts: I'm still hoping someone can whack my brain a little with some good reasoning and convince me otherwise...somehow. That's why I still haven't voted, even though I'm currently certain of the outcome. I feel like I'm being schooled again... "Still haven't voted, but sure of the outcome?" Aren't you just delaying the inevitable? I'd be surprised if 1 guy was able to change YOUR thoughts! Witty reply, I'm glad you noticed the discrepancy in both my thought process and phrasing. Though I'd rather wait until the end of the week before voting, in hopes that someone may cause me to doubt myself. Until then, I have a few brains to fill. Then start by filling your own brain with some of this info: the second half of the lake scene definitely isn't their afterlife, given all the facts that prove otherwise, but for all we know it could be a dying hallucination or some sort of recreated reality to give them a chance to confess to each other before they are sent off. The text could still very well be a fake, given Kazuha's attitude; maybe she found the bodies on her own and got rid of them through her wealth. In the opening theme, we see Sora at the bottom of the lake becoming of purple hue. Purple in Japanese culture represents nobility; on a more general note though, it can depict magic, as in the same magic that was perhaps preparing/taking her soul to the afterlife. Sora not answering could be because she honestly didn't know, or because she knew there was something fishy on how they survived. You bring up a good point about the bunny not making sense/being relevant to their death, so I won't address it. However, in the same train scene, which is exclusive to the anime, all you can see is clouds. Perhaps they are going to the distant sky (name of the episode), as in...that of heaven. Even if this doesn't happen to convince you they're dead, it should at least make you consider the possibility the ending was left ambiguous. Why are you of all people responding? Haven't you already given your proof regarding them being alive? If so, have you already changed your mind on their fate? Or is there more to this? I won't address your points now simply because I'm out of time. I will reply later though, so be ready. Changed my mind? Who knows... A little bird just happened to mention your dilemma to me. Well, it was more like a Revan. I mean raven! Raven... You'll get the stupid joke if you check his profile pic. Pardon my tardiness in replying, I was busy. Your joke assumes that I know something of Star Wars Expanded Universe, which I just happen to, barely; you're right, it is stupid. Both parties, brother and sister, were active during the second half of the lake scene, since they both renewed their love together. It being a hallucination would mean one of the two was a fake. There's also the issue of where the 'hallucination' would have happened. Harem boy never got a chance to see the stairs where he would have been lying on while chasing after his sister. Sissy on the other hand never noticed the bruise her brother was carrying on his knee. Yet both the elements are present during Lake Scene: Part 2. To put it simply, neither of the two had enough elements for such an accurate hallucination to occur in the first place. A conveniently recreated reality that just happens to have a trail of water leading to them? Next thing you'll tell me the whole Sora arc was just class prez having a bad dream. I used the lake scene as the cause to determine the effect that they are alive; you changed the effect to 'they're dead', but in order to do so had to alter the cause to 'Lake Scene: Part 2 isn't real' with nothing proving that it is fake. Simply put, Lake Scene: Part 2 happened and proves them to be alive. With that out of the way, I could just stop here, since as you said 'the lake scene was enough to prove them alive'. But for completion, I'll address your other points too. Purple magic Sora works more against you than in your favour. That same magic could be what was saving them instead, fulfilling the title 'Lake of Rebirth'. What was reborn wasn't the two of them physically, rather their bond as lovers. Would also mean that sister really didn't know what had saved them, which is why she was hesitant in answering. I still back my claim though that she didn't answer simply because there was no need to. I've already expressed why the text is real and what was up with Mrs Violinist's attitude. As you stated in one of your posts, Shrine girl would have been the first to find the bodies, but found nothing, considering she believed the text; Kazuha wasn't even present during the 'Lake allows you to be reborn' speech Akira gave, meaning that out of all the friends, she's the only one who wouldn't have even been able to guess Sora's location, like the brother did. She found no bodies, in other words. Not that there were any bodies to be found in the first place. Are there also tunnels and road beds when going to heaven? Because I recall the train traveling through a tunnel and on a road bed. The final scene mirrors the first one of the anime almost perfectly; it's called a 'bookend': the difference is that they travelled to the village as brother and sister, but left it as lovers. The fact that only clouds can be seen is due to camera angling, nothing more; also, because anime. Do you have any idea how many characters in anime happen to have only clouds in the background, yet aren't dead? One would think they're floating in the air. It's quite fitting they did it this way in this particular case: the anime is called 'Sky of Connection' after all. The only distant sky they are going to is that of the country the artisan who had connections with their parents lives in. And the name of the episode is simply a play on their names "Haruka na Sora"; is that also the name of what people refer to as the sequel fan disk of the VN? Could be that the name of the last episode is a hint to what happens after the anime: the fan disk, or a season 2 which never occurred; but that is just speculation. I've only heard bits and pieces, but is it true that the name of the last episode is the same as the last chapter of the manga, where they live (so I heard); and that there is also a text which Mrs Violinist receives at the end? If so, that doesn't help the death theory at all. You forgot to address the suitcase. In this particular kind of anime, where each route is given a precise conclusion, there's no such thing as an ambiguous ending. It can only be one: they are either dead, or alive. But you already knew all this, didn't you? You never did change your mind, you simply tried to satisfy a friend's request, playing devil's advocate even if you didn't believe in what you were typing. Each of your sentences wasn't a statement, rather a 'what if' scenario. I appreciate that you tried to sustain a thesis which wasn't yours to begin with; unfortunately, you only ended up strengthening my conviction that they survived. While I am a bit late, as promised, I will be voting now. I shall...Actually, I'm done. You know...I feel like I want a picture of you, just so I can make a 'I'm out of time' meme. But, um, oops! Seems I got the opposite effect of what I had intended. Sorry! But yeah, we did get to almost identical conclusions; and yes, you got me, I had already imagined what your answers would have been, since I got to pretty similar ones in determining they are alive; what I never expected was for you to figure me out so soon... and I never addressed the suitcase because...what the hell was I supposed to say? They are carrying 'Heaven Tunics: Incest Edition'?! Sorry Belzie, I flopped on this one. Massive spoiler alert. Just to clear it up, they also survive in both VN and manga. In the manga there's also the text received by Kazuha mentioning the artisan who had connections to their parents. Only difference is that in the manga they go on a trip, in the anime they leave for good. End of the spoilers. Now, something's been bugging me about you, so let me get this off my chest, and do answer me honestly: you never did intend to change your mind, did you? Despite wanting them dead, you knew all along the outcome would be that they were alive from the very beginning. I bet you were only looking for someone to debate with, whose points you could debunk like you did with mine. Of course, I could be just sprouting nonsense, so feel free to correct/insult me if so. |
LekkainSep 15, 2019 10:24 AM
Sep 16, 2019 4:25 AM
#83
Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. Well sooorrrryyyy if my observational skills suck! But the last thing I expected was, no offence, for a Sri-Lankan, if that is your nationality, to mention one of our poets. How did you know of him? Scratch that. How did you form such precise thoughts on the ending within less than 3 days? And how are you so sure about it; the ending, I mean? I teach Philosophy; Nietzsche's Ubermensch is often compared to D'Annunzio's Superman. I am expected to know one just as well as the other. Just as I am expected to process thoughts as quickly as possible. I apply this to anime as well; you can give a variety of interpretations to some elements of the ending: the lack of an answer, a look which may hide a lie behind it, a torn up object then magically restored in the following scenes...if we assume it to be the same object. The one thing we cannot interpret is two sopping wet people lying on stairs with a water trail leading to them. Unless you are somehow able to prove they are zombies, then such beings are still alive. Everything else, every interpretation after that, I base on that scene. That is why I'm sure of it. That isn't to say I am unwilling to change my thoughts: I'm still hoping someone can whack my brain a little with some good reasoning and convince me otherwise...somehow. That's why I still haven't voted, even though I'm currently certain of the outcome. I feel like I'm being schooled again... "Still haven't voted, but sure of the outcome?" Aren't you just delaying the inevitable? I'd be surprised if 1 guy was able to change YOUR thoughts! Witty reply, I'm glad you noticed the discrepancy in both my thought process and phrasing. Though I'd rather wait until the end of the week before voting, in hopes that someone may cause me to doubt myself. Until then, I have a few brains to fill. Then start by filling your own brain with some of this info: the second half of the lake scene definitely isn't their afterlife, given all the facts that prove otherwise, but for all we know it could be a dying hallucination or some sort of recreated reality to give them a chance to confess to each other before they are sent off. The text could still very well be a fake, given Kazuha's attitude; maybe she found the bodies on her own and got rid of them through her wealth. In the opening theme, we see Sora at the bottom of the lake becoming of purple hue. Purple in Japanese culture represents nobility; on a more general note though, it can depict magic, as in the same magic that was perhaps preparing/taking her soul to the afterlife. Sora not answering could be because she honestly didn't know, or because she knew there was something fishy on how they survived. You bring up a good point about the bunny not making sense/being relevant to their death, so I won't address it. However, in the same train scene, which is exclusive to the anime, all you can see is clouds. Perhaps they are going to the distant sky (name of the episode), as in...that of heaven. Even if this doesn't happen to convince you they're dead, it should at least make you consider the possibility the ending was left ambiguous. Why are you of all people responding? Haven't you already given your proof regarding them being alive? If so, have you already changed your mind on their fate? Or is there more to this? I won't address your points now simply because I'm out of time. I will reply later though, so be ready. Changed my mind? Who knows... A little bird just happened to mention your dilemma to me. Well, it was more like a Revan. I mean raven! Raven... You'll get the stupid joke if you check his profile pic. Pardon my tardiness in replying, I was busy. Your joke assumes that I know something of Star Wars Expanded Universe, which I just happen to, barely; you're right, it is stupid. Both parties, brother and sister, were active during the second half of the lake scene, since they both renewed their love together. It being a hallucination would mean one of the two was a fake. There's also the issue of where the 'hallucination' would have happened. Harem boy never got a chance to see the stairs where he would have been lying on while chasing after his sister. Sissy on the other hand never noticed the bruise her brother was carrying on his knee. Yet both the elements are present during Lake Scene: Part 2. To put it simply, neither of the two had enough elements for such an accurate hallucination to occur in the first place. A conveniently recreated reality that just happens to have a trail of water leading to them? Next thing you'll tell me the whole Sora arc was just class prez having a bad dream. I used the lake scene as the cause to determine the effect that they are alive; you changed the effect to 'they're dead', but in order to do so had to alter the cause to 'Lake Scene: Part 2 isn't real' with nothing proving that it is fake. Simply put, Lake Scene: Part 2 happened and proves them to be alive. With that out of the way, I could just stop here, since as you said 'the lake scene was enough to prove them alive'. But for completion, I'll address your other points too. Purple magic Sora works more against you than in your favour. That same magic could be what was saving them instead, fulfilling the title 'Lake of Rebirth'. What was reborn wasn't the two of them physically, rather their bond as lovers. Would also mean that sister really didn't know what had saved them, which is why she was hesitant in answering. I still back my claim though that she didn't answer simply because there was no need to. I've already expressed why the text is real and what was up with Mrs Violinist's attitude. As you stated in one of your posts, Shrine girl would have been the first to find the bodies, but found nothing, considering she believed the text; Kazuha wasn't even present during the 'Lake allows you to be reborn' speech Akira gave, meaning that out of all the friends, she's the only one who wouldn't have even been able to guess Sora's location, like the brother did. She found no bodies, in other words. Not that there were any bodies to be found in the first place. Are there also tunnels and road beds when going to heaven? Because I recall the train traveling through a tunnel and on a road bed. The final scene mirrors the first one of the anime almost perfectly; it's called a 'bookend': the difference is that they travelled to the village as brother and sister, but left it as lovers. The fact that only clouds can be seen is due to camera angling, nothing more; also, because anime. Do you have any idea how many characters in anime happen to have only clouds in the background, yet aren't dead? One would think they're floating in the air. It's quite fitting they did it this way in this particular case: the anime is called 'Sky of Connection' after all. The only distant sky they are going to is that of the country the artisan who had connections with their parents lives in. And the name of the episode is simply a play on their names "Haruka na Sora"; is that also the name of what people refer to as the sequel fan disk of the VN? Could be that the name of the last episode is a hint to what happens after the anime: the fan disk, or a season 2 which never occurred; but that is just speculation. I've only heard bits and pieces, but is it true that the name of the last episode is the same as the last chapter of the manga, where they live (so I heard); and that there is also a text which Mrs Violinist receives at the end? If so, that doesn't help the death theory at all. You forgot to address the suitcase. In this particular kind of anime, where each route is given a precise conclusion, there's no such thing as an ambiguous ending. It can only be one: they are either dead, or alive. But you already knew all this, didn't you? You never did change your mind, you simply tried to satisfy a friend's request, playing devil's advocate even if you didn't believe in what you were typing. Each of your sentences wasn't a statement, rather a 'what if' scenario. I appreciate that you tried to sustain a thesis which wasn't yours to begin with; unfortunately, you only ended up strengthening my conviction that they survived. While I am a bit late, as promised, I will be voting now. I shall...Actually, I'm done. You know...I feel like I want a picture of you, just so I can make a 'I'm out of time' meme. But, um, oops! Seems I got the opposite effect of what I had intended. Sorry! But yeah, we did get to almost identical conclusions; and yes, you got me, I had already imagined what your answers would have been, since I got to pretty similar ones in determining they are alive; what I never expected was for you to figure me out so soon... and I never addressed the suitcase because...what the hell was I supposed to say? They are carrying 'Heaven Tunics: Incest Edition'?! Sorry Belzie, I flopped on this one. Massive spoiler alert. Just to clear it up, they also survive in both VN and manga. In the manga there's also the text received by Kazuha mentioning the artisan who had connections to their parents. Only difference is that in the manga they go on a trip, in the anime they leave for good. End of the spoilers. Now, something's been bugging me about you, so let me get this off my chest, and do answer me honestly: you never did intend to change your mind, did you? Despite wanting them dead, you knew all along the outcome would be that they were alive from the very beginning. I bet you were only looking for someone to debate with, whose points you could debunk like you did with mine. Of course, I could be just sprouting nonsense, so feel free to correct/insult me if so. What? I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm a simple almost middle-aged man who just wanted some convincing regarding a dumb topic. Okay fine, you asked me to be honest: I was looking for someone to debate with; and yes, I never was going to change my mind, given that after 9 years since airing nothing new would have been found to sustain an already weak death theory. I did start out by saying it was a dumb topic, didn't I?Congratulations, you were right. Have a banana. Debating wasn't my only objective though. My other intention was to find out the following: how on earth people believe them to be dead? Even if we did interpret some moments to be possible death flags, there is one problem: the lake scene exists and it proves them to be alive. It doesn't matter HOW they survived; wether they were saved by the sister, Glasses girl, Shrine girl, magic, or a yellow submarine. Fact is, they DID survive. How do people still believe they're dead? Is it because they want to? Did they not notice the trail of water? Or the fact that they were both drenched? Do they scoff off the scene as a dying hallucination, even though it isn't? Or, even more absurdly, do they convince themselves it's a recreated reality? This is what I aimed to grasp. I said this anime wasn't memorable, aside from maybe the incest; well, now I'll forever remember the fact that in the ending people got misled by a bunny. I now take my leave. I've already spent more time on this poll than what I had originally intended. |
Nov 3, 2019 10:55 AM
#84
Jokuc said: A lot of people arguing for them being alive, but it seems pretty obvious to me that they are dead and that this is the intention of the author. I read most replies here and has seen nothing that convinces me otherwise. Now I'm genuinely curious. How do you justify the lake scene, where they are clearly shown to be alive? I mean, it's already been proven it isn't a dying hallucination or their afterlife. I cannot think of any other explanation, other than the fact that they would have had to die after the lake scene, while going back home lol |
Nov 3, 2019 11:47 AM
#85
Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. Well sooorrrryyyy if my observational skills suck! But the last thing I expected was, no offence, for a Sri-Lankan, if that is your nationality, to mention one of our poets. How did you know of him? Scratch that. How did you form such precise thoughts on the ending within less than 3 days? And how are you so sure about it; the ending, I mean? I teach Philosophy; Nietzsche's Ubermensch is often compared to D'Annunzio's Superman. I am expected to know one just as well as the other. Just as I am expected to process thoughts as quickly as possible. I apply this to anime as well; you can give a variety of interpretations to some elements of the ending: the lack of an answer, a look which may hide a lie behind it, a torn up object then magically restored in the following scenes...if we assume it to be the same object. The one thing we cannot interpret is two sopping wet people lying on stairs with a water trail leading to them. Unless you are somehow able to prove they are zombies, then such beings are still alive. Everything else, every interpretation after that, I base on that scene. That is why I'm sure of it. That isn't to say I am unwilling to change my thoughts: I'm still hoping someone can whack my brain a little with some good reasoning and convince me otherwise...somehow. That's why I still haven't voted, even though I'm currently certain of the outcome. I feel like I'm being schooled again... "Still haven't voted, but sure of the outcome?" Aren't you just delaying the inevitable? I'd be surprised if 1 guy was able to change YOUR thoughts! Witty reply, I'm glad you noticed the discrepancy in both my thought process and phrasing. Though I'd rather wait until the end of the week before voting, in hopes that someone may cause me to doubt myself. Until then, I have a few brains to fill. Then start by filling your own brain with some of this info: the second half of the lake scene definitely isn't their afterlife, given all the facts that prove otherwise, but for all we know it could be a dying hallucination or some sort of recreated reality to give them a chance to confess to each other before they are sent off. The text could still very well be a fake, given Kazuha's attitude; maybe she found the bodies on her own and got rid of them through her wealth. In the opening theme, we see Sora at the bottom of the lake becoming of purple hue. Purple in Japanese culture represents nobility; on a more general note though, it can depict magic, as in the same magic that was perhaps preparing/taking her soul to the afterlife. Sora not answering could be because she honestly didn't know, or because she knew there was something fishy on how they survived. You bring up a good point about the bunny not making sense/being relevant to their death, so I won't address it. However, in the same train scene, which is exclusive to the anime, all you can see is clouds. Perhaps they are going to the distant sky (name of the episode), as in...that of heaven. Even if this doesn't happen to convince you they're dead, it should at least make you consider the possibility the ending was left ambiguous. Why are you of all people responding? Haven't you already given your proof regarding them being alive? If so, have you already changed your mind on their fate? Or is there more to this? I won't address your points now simply because I'm out of time. I will reply later though, so be ready. Changed my mind? Who knows... A little bird just happened to mention your dilemma to me. Well, it was more like a Revan. I mean raven! Raven... You'll get the stupid joke if you check his profile pic. Pardon my tardiness in replying, I was busy. Your joke assumes that I know something of Star Wars Expanded Universe, which I just happen to, barely; you're right, it is stupid. Both parties, brother and sister, were active during the second half of the lake scene, since they both renewed their love together. It being a hallucination would mean one of the two was a fake. There's also the issue of where the 'hallucination' would have happened. Harem boy never got a chance to see the stairs where he would have been lying on while chasing after his sister. Sissy on the other hand never noticed the bruise her brother was carrying on his knee. Yet both the elements are present during Lake Scene: Part 2. To put it simply, neither of the two had enough elements for such an accurate hallucination to occur in the first place. A conveniently recreated reality that just happens to have a trail of water leading to them? Next thing you'll tell me the whole Sora arc was just class prez having a bad dream. I used the lake scene as the cause to determine the effect that they are alive; you changed the effect to 'they're dead', but in order to do so had to alter the cause to 'Lake Scene: Part 2 isn't real' with nothing proving that it is fake. Simply put, Lake Scene: Part 2 happened and proves them to be alive. With that out of the way, I could just stop here, since as you said 'the lake scene was enough to prove them alive'. But for completion, I'll address your other points too. Purple magic Sora works more against you than in your favour. That same magic could be what was saving them instead, fulfilling the title 'Lake of Rebirth'. What was reborn wasn't the two of them physically, rather their bond as lovers. Would also mean that sister really didn't know what had saved them, which is why she was hesitant in answering. I still back my claim though that she didn't answer simply because there was no need to. I've already expressed why the text is real and what was up with Mrs Violinist's attitude. As you stated in one of your posts, Shrine girl would have been the first to find the bodies, but found nothing, considering she believed the text; Kazuha wasn't even present during the 'Lake allows you to be reborn' speech Akira gave, meaning that out of all the friends, she's the only one who wouldn't have even been able to guess Sora's location, like the brother did. She found no bodies, in other words. Not that there were any bodies to be found in the first place. Are there also tunnels and road beds when going to heaven? Because I recall the train traveling through a tunnel and on a road bed. The final scene mirrors the first one of the anime almost perfectly; it's called a 'bookend': the difference is that they travelled to the village as brother and sister, but left it as lovers. The fact that only clouds can be seen is due to camera angling, nothing more; also, because anime. Do you have any idea how many characters in anime happen to have only clouds in the background, yet aren't dead? One would think they're floating in the air. It's quite fitting they did it this way in this particular case: the anime is called 'Sky of Connection' after all. The only distant sky they are going to is that of the country the artisan who had connections with their parents lives in. And the name of the episode is simply a play on their names "Haruka na Sora"; is that also the name of what people refer to as the sequel fan disk of the VN? Could be that the name of the last episode is a hint to what happens after the anime: the fan disk, or a season 2 which never occurred; but that is just speculation. I've only heard bits and pieces, but is it true that the name of the last episode is the same as the last chapter of the manga, where they live (so I heard); and that there is also a text which Mrs Violinist receives at the end? If so, that doesn't help the death theory at all. You forgot to address the suitcase. In this particular kind of anime, where each route is given a precise conclusion, there's no such thing as an ambiguous ending. It can only be one: they are either dead, or alive. But you already knew all this, didn't you? You never did change your mind, you simply tried to satisfy a friend's request, playing devil's advocate even if you didn't believe in what you were typing. Each of your sentences wasn't a statement, rather a 'what if' scenario. I appreciate that you tried to sustain a thesis which wasn't yours to begin with; unfortunately, you only ended up strengthening my conviction that they survived. While I am a bit late, as promised, I will be voting now. I shall...Actually, I'm done. You know...I feel like I want a picture of you, just so I can make a 'I'm out of time' meme. But, um, oops! Seems I got the opposite effect of what I had intended. Sorry! But yeah, we did get to almost identical conclusions; and yes, you got me, I had already imagined what your answers would have been, since I got to pretty similar ones in determining they are alive; what I never expected was for you to figure me out so soon... and I never addressed the suitcase because...what the hell was I supposed to say? They are carrying 'Heaven Tunics: Incest Edition'?! Sorry Belzie, I flopped on this one. Massive spoiler alert. Just to clear it up, they also survive in both VN and manga. In the manga there's also the text received by Kazuha mentioning the artisan who had connections to their parents. Only difference is that in the manga they go on a trip, in the anime they leave for good. End of the spoilers. Now, something's been bugging me about you, so let me get this off my chest, and do answer me honestly: you never did intend to change your mind, did you? Despite wanting them dead, you knew all along the outcome would be that they were alive from the very beginning. I bet you were only looking for someone to debate with, whose points you could debunk like you did with mine. Of course, I could be just sprouting nonsense, so feel free to correct/insult me if so. What? I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm a simple almost middle-aged man who just wanted some convincing regarding a dumb topic. Okay fine, you asked me to be honest: I was looking for someone to debate with; and yes, I never was going to change my mind, given that after 9 years since airing nothing new would have been found to sustain an already weak death theory. I did start out by saying it was a dumb topic, didn't I?Congratulations, you were right. Have a banana. Debating wasn't my only objective though. My other intention was to find out the following: how on earth people believe them to be dead? Even if we did interpret some moments to be possible death flags, there is one problem: the lake scene exists and it proves them to be alive. It doesn't matter HOW they survived; wether they were saved by the sister, Glasses girl, Shrine girl, magic, or a yellow submarine. Fact is, they DID survive. How do people still believe they're dead? Is it because they want to? Did they not notice the trail of water? Or the fact that they were both drenched? Do they scoff off the scene as a dying hallucination, even though it isn't? Or, even more absurdly, do they convince themselves it's a recreated reality? This is what I aimed to grasp. I said this anime wasn't memorable, aside from maybe the incest; well, now I'll forever remember the fact that in the ending people got misled by a bunny. I now take my leave. I've already spent more time on this poll than what I had originally intended. Wow, I didn't think such a pointless poll existed. The ending was pretty straightforward actually. Still, it's surprising to see that there are a few people that believe them to be dead. It's too obvious they are alive. Despite this, I also voted them dead, just for shits and giggles, lol. It's as you said. They either didn't notice the stuff that proved the two mains alive, trail of water, wet twins (in more ways than one, XD), or they just wanted a darker ending, either because it would have been slightly more fitting, given the seriousness of the topic, and I can agree with this, or because they thought the anime was shit. The recreated reality bit sounds like bullshit honestly, given this is not a supernatural type of anime (and even if it were a supernatural one, which it isn't, it would still be pretty dumb, given all the details involved in the scene). Might as well say the whole arc was just a 'recreated reality'. Maybe some did it like me, and voted no just to be a troll, lol. I cannot honestly think of any other reason. Which brings me to why I think this poll is pointless. Our votes won't determine their fate. Neither will our interpretations, not that there's much room for interpretation in the first place. As you said, at best what can be interpreted is HOW they survived (I support the yellow submarine theory, XD). That they DID survive is a fact, as the anime portrayed it as such, with no room for interpretation, through what you call Lake Scene: Part 2. Spoiler below for the Monogatari series. And I thought Kaiki Deiishu being dead was a stupid theory (how do ghosts grow a fucking beard?!) this one's way worse. Misled by a bunny indeed, lol. |
LuananeeNov 3, 2019 12:01 PM
Nov 8, 2019 4:01 AM
#86
Luananee said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. Well sooorrrryyyy if my observational skills suck! But the last thing I expected was, no offence, for a Sri-Lankan, if that is your nationality, to mention one of our poets. How did you know of him? Scratch that. How did you form such precise thoughts on the ending within less than 3 days? And how are you so sure about it; the ending, I mean? I teach Philosophy; Nietzsche's Ubermensch is often compared to D'Annunzio's Superman. I am expected to know one just as well as the other. Just as I am expected to process thoughts as quickly as possible. I apply this to anime as well; you can give a variety of interpretations to some elements of the ending: the lack of an answer, a look which may hide a lie behind it, a torn up object then magically restored in the following scenes...if we assume it to be the same object. The one thing we cannot interpret is two sopping wet people lying on stairs with a water trail leading to them. Unless you are somehow able to prove they are zombies, then such beings are still alive. Everything else, every interpretation after that, I base on that scene. That is why I'm sure of it. That isn't to say I am unwilling to change my thoughts: I'm still hoping someone can whack my brain a little with some good reasoning and convince me otherwise...somehow. That's why I still haven't voted, even though I'm currently certain of the outcome. I feel like I'm being schooled again... "Still haven't voted, but sure of the outcome?" Aren't you just delaying the inevitable? I'd be surprised if 1 guy was able to change YOUR thoughts! Witty reply, I'm glad you noticed the discrepancy in both my thought process and phrasing. Though I'd rather wait until the end of the week before voting, in hopes that someone may cause me to doubt myself. Until then, I have a few brains to fill. Then start by filling your own brain with some of this info: the second half of the lake scene definitely isn't their afterlife, given all the facts that prove otherwise, but for all we know it could be a dying hallucination or some sort of recreated reality to give them a chance to confess to each other before they are sent off. The text could still very well be a fake, given Kazuha's attitude; maybe she found the bodies on her own and got rid of them through her wealth. In the opening theme, we see Sora at the bottom of the lake becoming of purple hue. Purple in Japanese culture represents nobility; on a more general note though, it can depict magic, as in the same magic that was perhaps preparing/taking her soul to the afterlife. Sora not answering could be because she honestly didn't know, or because she knew there was something fishy on how they survived. You bring up a good point about the bunny not making sense/being relevant to their death, so I won't address it. However, in the same train scene, which is exclusive to the anime, all you can see is clouds. Perhaps they are going to the distant sky (name of the episode), as in...that of heaven. Even if this doesn't happen to convince you they're dead, it should at least make you consider the possibility the ending was left ambiguous. Why are you of all people responding? Haven't you already given your proof regarding them being alive? If so, have you already changed your mind on their fate? Or is there more to this? I won't address your points now simply because I'm out of time. I will reply later though, so be ready. Changed my mind? Who knows... A little bird just happened to mention your dilemma to me. Well, it was more like a Revan. I mean raven! Raven... You'll get the stupid joke if you check his profile pic. Pardon my tardiness in replying, I was busy. Your joke assumes that I know something of Star Wars Expanded Universe, which I just happen to, barely; you're right, it is stupid. Both parties, brother and sister, were active during the second half of the lake scene, since they both renewed their love together. It being a hallucination would mean one of the two was a fake. There's also the issue of where the 'hallucination' would have happened. Harem boy never got a chance to see the stairs where he would have been lying on while chasing after his sister. Sissy on the other hand never noticed the bruise her brother was carrying on his knee. Yet both the elements are present during Lake Scene: Part 2. To put it simply, neither of the two had enough elements for such an accurate hallucination to occur in the first place. A conveniently recreated reality that just happens to have a trail of water leading to them? Next thing you'll tell me the whole Sora arc was just class prez having a bad dream. I used the lake scene as the cause to determine the effect that they are alive; you changed the effect to 'they're dead', but in order to do so had to alter the cause to 'Lake Scene: Part 2 isn't real' with nothing proving that it is fake. Simply put, Lake Scene: Part 2 happened and proves them to be alive. With that out of the way, I could just stop here, since as you said 'the lake scene was enough to prove them alive'. But for completion, I'll address your other points too. Purple magic Sora works more against you than in your favour. That same magic could be what was saving them instead, fulfilling the title 'Lake of Rebirth'. What was reborn wasn't the two of them physically, rather their bond as lovers. Would also mean that sister really didn't know what had saved them, which is why she was hesitant in answering. I still back my claim though that she didn't answer simply because there was no need to. I've already expressed why the text is real and what was up with Mrs Violinist's attitude. As you stated in one of your posts, Shrine girl would have been the first to find the bodies, but found nothing, considering she believed the text; Kazuha wasn't even present during the 'Lake allows you to be reborn' speech Akira gave, meaning that out of all the friends, she's the only one who wouldn't have even been able to guess Sora's location, like the brother did. She found no bodies, in other words. Not that there were any bodies to be found in the first place. Are there also tunnels and road beds when going to heaven? Because I recall the train traveling through a tunnel and on a road bed. The final scene mirrors the first one of the anime almost perfectly; it's called a 'bookend': the difference is that they travelled to the village as brother and sister, but left it as lovers. The fact that only clouds can be seen is due to camera angling, nothing more; also, because anime. Do you have any idea how many characters in anime happen to have only clouds in the background, yet aren't dead? One would think they're floating in the air. It's quite fitting they did it this way in this particular case: the anime is called 'Sky of Connection' after all. The only distant sky they are going to is that of the country the artisan who had connections with their parents lives in. And the name of the episode is simply a play on their names "Haruka na Sora"; is that also the name of what people refer to as the sequel fan disk of the VN? Could be that the name of the last episode is a hint to what happens after the anime: the fan disk, or a season 2 which never occurred; but that is just speculation. I've only heard bits and pieces, but is it true that the name of the last episode is the same as the last chapter of the manga, where they live (so I heard); and that there is also a text which Mrs Violinist receives at the end? If so, that doesn't help the death theory at all. You forgot to address the suitcase. In this particular kind of anime, where each route is given a precise conclusion, there's no such thing as an ambiguous ending. It can only be one: they are either dead, or alive. But you already knew all this, didn't you? You never did change your mind, you simply tried to satisfy a friend's request, playing devil's advocate even if you didn't believe in what you were typing. Each of your sentences wasn't a statement, rather a 'what if' scenario. I appreciate that you tried to sustain a thesis which wasn't yours to begin with; unfortunately, you only ended up strengthening my conviction that they survived. While I am a bit late, as promised, I will be voting now. I shall...Actually, I'm done. You know...I feel like I want a picture of you, just so I can make a 'I'm out of time' meme. But, um, oops! Seems I got the opposite effect of what I had intended. Sorry! But yeah, we did get to almost identical conclusions; and yes, you got me, I had already imagined what your answers would have been, since I got to pretty similar ones in determining they are alive; what I never expected was for you to figure me out so soon... and I never addressed the suitcase because...what the hell was I supposed to say? They are carrying 'Heaven Tunics: Incest Edition'?! Sorry Belzie, I flopped on this one. Massive spoiler alert. Just to clear it up, they also survive in both VN and manga. In the manga there's also the text received by Kazuha mentioning the artisan who had connections to their parents. Only difference is that in the manga they go on a trip, in the anime they leave for good. End of the spoilers. Now, something's been bugging me about you, so let me get this off my chest, and do answer me honestly: you never did intend to change your mind, did you? Despite wanting them dead, you knew all along the outcome would be that they were alive from the very beginning. I bet you were only looking for someone to debate with, whose points you could debunk like you did with mine. Of course, I could be just sprouting nonsense, so feel free to correct/insult me if so. What? I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm a simple almost middle-aged man who just wanted some convincing regarding a dumb topic. Okay fine, you asked me to be honest: I was looking for someone to debate with; and yes, I never was going to change my mind, given that after 9 years since airing nothing new would have been found to sustain an already weak death theory. I did start out by saying it was a dumb topic, didn't I?Congratulations, you were right. Have a banana. Debating wasn't my only objective though. My other intention was to find out the following: how on earth people believe them to be dead? Even if we did interpret some moments to be possible death flags, there is one problem: the lake scene exists and it proves them to be alive. It doesn't matter HOW they survived; wether they were saved by the sister, Glasses girl, Shrine girl, magic, or a yellow submarine. Fact is, they DID survive. How do people still believe they're dead? Is it because they want to? Did they not notice the trail of water? Or the fact that they were both drenched? Do they scoff off the scene as a dying hallucination, even though it isn't? Or, even more absurdly, do they convince themselves it's a recreated reality? This is what I aimed to grasp. I said this anime wasn't memorable, aside from maybe the incest; well, now I'll forever remember the fact that in the ending people got misled by a bunny. I now take my leave. I've already spent more time on this poll than what I had originally intended. Wow, I didn't think such a pointless poll existed. The ending was pretty straightforward actually. Still, it's surprising to see that there are a few people that believe them to be dead. It's too obvious they are alive. Despite this, I also voted them dead, just for shits and giggles, lol. It's as you said. They either didn't notice the stuff that proved the two mains alive, trail of water, wet twins (in more ways than one, XD), or they just wanted a darker ending, either because it would have been slightly more fitting, given the seriousness of the topic, and I can agree with this, or because they thought the anime was shit. The recreated reality bit sounds like bullshit honestly, given this is not a supernatural type of anime (and even if it were a supernatural one, which it isn't, it would still be pretty dumb, given all the details involved in the scene). Might as well say the whole arc was just a 'recreated reality'. Maybe some did it like me, and voted no just to be a troll, lol. I cannot honestly think of any other reason. Which brings me to why I think this poll is pointless. Our votes won't determine their fate. Neither will our interpretations, not that there's much room for interpretation in the first place. As you said, at best what can be interpreted is HOW they survived (I support the yellow submarine theory, XD). That they DID survive is a fact, as the anime portrayed it as such, with no room for interpretation, through what you call Lake Scene: Part 2. Spoiler below for the Monogatari series. And I thought Kaiki Deiishu being dead was a stupid theory (how do ghosts grow a fucking beard?!) this one's way worse. Misled by a bunny indeed, lol. Glad someone else noticed the details. People keep mentioning to me the Monogatari series for one reason or the other. I think I'll try it if I ever have the chance. Then I can come back and see what that spoiler was all about. I've just checked your profile: 'genre challenges', eh? If horror is this month's one, try Pet Shop of Horrors. I personally don't like it, but it may intrigue you. Oh, but you must watch Boku no Pico! It's probably the most horrifying thing I've ever seen; It'll definitely win your challenge! And, I've read that review you mentioned: not too bad for a first. |
Nov 8, 2019 4:44 PM
#87
Saturos-001 said: Luananee said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. Well sooorrrryyyy if my observational skills suck! But the last thing I expected was, no offence, for a Sri-Lankan, if that is your nationality, to mention one of our poets. How did you know of him? Scratch that. How did you form such precise thoughts on the ending within less than 3 days? And how are you so sure about it; the ending, I mean? I teach Philosophy; Nietzsche's Ubermensch is often compared to D'Annunzio's Superman. I am expected to know one just as well as the other. Just as I am expected to process thoughts as quickly as possible. I apply this to anime as well; you can give a variety of interpretations to some elements of the ending: the lack of an answer, a look which may hide a lie behind it, a torn up object then magically restored in the following scenes...if we assume it to be the same object. The one thing we cannot interpret is two sopping wet people lying on stairs with a water trail leading to them. Unless you are somehow able to prove they are zombies, then such beings are still alive. Everything else, every interpretation after that, I base on that scene. That is why I'm sure of it. That isn't to say I am unwilling to change my thoughts: I'm still hoping someone can whack my brain a little with some good reasoning and convince me otherwise...somehow. That's why I still haven't voted, even though I'm currently certain of the outcome. I feel like I'm being schooled again... "Still haven't voted, but sure of the outcome?" Aren't you just delaying the inevitable? I'd be surprised if 1 guy was able to change YOUR thoughts! Witty reply, I'm glad you noticed the discrepancy in both my thought process and phrasing. Though I'd rather wait until the end of the week before voting, in hopes that someone may cause me to doubt myself. Until then, I have a few brains to fill. Then start by filling your own brain with some of this info: the second half of the lake scene definitely isn't their afterlife, given all the facts that prove otherwise, but for all we know it could be a dying hallucination or some sort of recreated reality to give them a chance to confess to each other before they are sent off. The text could still very well be a fake, given Kazuha's attitude; maybe she found the bodies on her own and got rid of them through her wealth. In the opening theme, we see Sora at the bottom of the lake becoming of purple hue. Purple in Japanese culture represents nobility; on a more general note though, it can depict magic, as in the same magic that was perhaps preparing/taking her soul to the afterlife. Sora not answering could be because she honestly didn't know, or because she knew there was something fishy on how they survived. You bring up a good point about the bunny not making sense/being relevant to their death, so I won't address it. However, in the same train scene, which is exclusive to the anime, all you can see is clouds. Perhaps they are going to the distant sky (name of the episode), as in...that of heaven. Even if this doesn't happen to convince you they're dead, it should at least make you consider the possibility the ending was left ambiguous. Why are you of all people responding? Haven't you already given your proof regarding them being alive? If so, have you already changed your mind on their fate? Or is there more to this? I won't address your points now simply because I'm out of time. I will reply later though, so be ready. Changed my mind? Who knows... A little bird just happened to mention your dilemma to me. Well, it was more like a Revan. I mean raven! Raven... You'll get the stupid joke if you check his profile pic. Pardon my tardiness in replying, I was busy. Your joke assumes that I know something of Star Wars Expanded Universe, which I just happen to, barely; you're right, it is stupid. Both parties, brother and sister, were active during the second half of the lake scene, since they both renewed their love together. It being a hallucination would mean one of the two was a fake. There's also the issue of where the 'hallucination' would have happened. Harem boy never got a chance to see the stairs where he would have been lying on while chasing after his sister. Sissy on the other hand never noticed the bruise her brother was carrying on his knee. Yet both the elements are present during Lake Scene: Part 2. To put it simply, neither of the two had enough elements for such an accurate hallucination to occur in the first place. A conveniently recreated reality that just happens to have a trail of water leading to them? Next thing you'll tell me the whole Sora arc was just class prez having a bad dream. I used the lake scene as the cause to determine the effect that they are alive; you changed the effect to 'they're dead', but in order to do so had to alter the cause to 'Lake Scene: Part 2 isn't real' with nothing proving that it is fake. Simply put, Lake Scene: Part 2 happened and proves them to be alive. With that out of the way, I could just stop here, since as you said 'the lake scene was enough to prove them alive'. But for completion, I'll address your other points too. Purple magic Sora works more against you than in your favour. That same magic could be what was saving them instead, fulfilling the title 'Lake of Rebirth'. What was reborn wasn't the two of them physically, rather their bond as lovers. Would also mean that sister really didn't know what had saved them, which is why she was hesitant in answering. I still back my claim though that she didn't answer simply because there was no need to. I've already expressed why the text is real and what was up with Mrs Violinist's attitude. As you stated in one of your posts, Shrine girl would have been the first to find the bodies, but found nothing, considering she believed the text; Kazuha wasn't even present during the 'Lake allows you to be reborn' speech Akira gave, meaning that out of all the friends, she's the only one who wouldn't have even been able to guess Sora's location, like the brother did. She found no bodies, in other words. Not that there were any bodies to be found in the first place. Are there also tunnels and road beds when going to heaven? Because I recall the train traveling through a tunnel and on a road bed. The final scene mirrors the first one of the anime almost perfectly; it's called a 'bookend': the difference is that they travelled to the village as brother and sister, but left it as lovers. The fact that only clouds can be seen is due to camera angling, nothing more; also, because anime. Do you have any idea how many characters in anime happen to have only clouds in the background, yet aren't dead? One would think they're floating in the air. It's quite fitting they did it this way in this particular case: the anime is called 'Sky of Connection' after all. The only distant sky they are going to is that of the country the artisan who had connections with their parents lives in. And the name of the episode is simply a play on their names "Haruka na Sora"; is that also the name of what people refer to as the sequel fan disk of the VN? Could be that the name of the last episode is a hint to what happens after the anime: the fan disk, or a season 2 which never occurred; but that is just speculation. I've only heard bits and pieces, but is it true that the name of the last episode is the same as the last chapter of the manga, where they live (so I heard); and that there is also a text which Mrs Violinist receives at the end? If so, that doesn't help the death theory at all. You forgot to address the suitcase. In this particular kind of anime, where each route is given a precise conclusion, there's no such thing as an ambiguous ending. It can only be one: they are either dead, or alive. But you already knew all this, didn't you? You never did change your mind, you simply tried to satisfy a friend's request, playing devil's advocate even if you didn't believe in what you were typing. Each of your sentences wasn't a statement, rather a 'what if' scenario. I appreciate that you tried to sustain a thesis which wasn't yours to begin with; unfortunately, you only ended up strengthening my conviction that they survived. While I am a bit late, as promised, I will be voting now. I shall...Actually, I'm done. You know...I feel like I want a picture of you, just so I can make a 'I'm out of time' meme. But, um, oops! Seems I got the opposite effect of what I had intended. Sorry! But yeah, we did get to almost identical conclusions; and yes, you got me, I had already imagined what your answers would have been, since I got to pretty similar ones in determining they are alive; what I never expected was for you to figure me out so soon... and I never addressed the suitcase because...what the hell was I supposed to say? They are carrying 'Heaven Tunics: Incest Edition'?! Sorry Belzie, I flopped on this one. Massive spoiler alert. Just to clear it up, they also survive in both VN and manga. In the manga there's also the text received by Kazuha mentioning the artisan who had connections to their parents. Only difference is that in the manga they go on a trip, in the anime they leave for good. End of the spoilers. Now, something's been bugging me about you, so let me get this off my chest, and do answer me honestly: you never did intend to change your mind, did you? Despite wanting them dead, you knew all along the outcome would be that they were alive from the very beginning. I bet you were only looking for someone to debate with, whose points you could debunk like you did with mine. Of course, I could be just sprouting nonsense, so feel free to correct/insult me if so. What? I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm a simple almost middle-aged man who just wanted some convincing regarding a dumb topic. Okay fine, you asked me to be honest: I was looking for someone to debate with; and yes, I never was going to change my mind, given that after 9 years since airing nothing new would have been found to sustain an already weak death theory. I did start out by saying it was a dumb topic, didn't I?Congratulations, you were right. Have a banana. Debating wasn't my only objective though. My other intention was to find out the following: how on earth people believe them to be dead? Even if we did interpret some moments to be possible death flags, there is one problem: the lake scene exists and it proves them to be alive. It doesn't matter HOW they survived; wether they were saved by the sister, Glasses girl, Shrine girl, magic, or a yellow submarine. Fact is, they DID survive. How do people still believe they're dead? Is it because they want to? Did they not notice the trail of water? Or the fact that they were both drenched? Do they scoff off the scene as a dying hallucination, even though it isn't? Or, even more absurdly, do they convince themselves it's a recreated reality? This is what I aimed to grasp. I said this anime wasn't memorable, aside from maybe the incest; well, now I'll forever remember the fact that in the ending people got misled by a bunny. I now take my leave. I've already spent more time on this poll than what I had originally intended. Wow, I didn't think such a pointless poll existed. The ending was pretty straightforward actually. Still, it's surprising to see that there are a few people that believe them to be dead. It's too obvious they are alive. Despite this, I also voted them dead, just for shits and giggles, lol. It's as you said. They either didn't notice the stuff that proved the two mains alive, trail of water, wet twins (in more ways than one, XD), or they just wanted a darker ending, either because it would have been slightly more fitting, given the seriousness of the topic, and I can agree with this, or because they thought the anime was shit. The recreated reality bit sounds like bullshit honestly, given this is not a supernatural type of anime (and even if it were a supernatural one, which it isn't, it would still be pretty dumb, given all the details involved in the scene). Might as well say the whole arc was just a 'recreated reality'. Maybe some did it like me, and voted no just to be a troll, lol. I cannot honestly think of any other reason. Which brings me to why I think this poll is pointless. Our votes won't determine their fate. Neither will our interpretations, not that there's much room for interpretation in the first place. As you said, at best what can be interpreted is HOW they survived (I support the yellow submarine theory, XD). That they DID survive is a fact, as the anime portrayed it as such, with no room for interpretation, through what you call Lake Scene: Part 2. Spoiler below for the Monogatari series. And I thought Kaiki Deiishu being dead was a stupid theory (how do ghosts grow a fucking beard?!) this one's way worse. Misled by a bunny indeed, lol. Glad someone else noticed the details. People keep mentioning to me the Monogatari series for one reason or the other. I think I'll try it if I ever have the chance. Then I can come back and see what that spoiler was all about. I've just checked your profile: 'genre challenges', eh? If horror is this month's one, try Pet Shop of Horrors. I personally don't like it, but it may intrigue you. Oh, but you must watch Boku no Pico! It's probably the most horrifying thing I've ever seen; It'll definitely win your challenge! And, I've read that review you mentioned: not too bad for a first. Why thanks! I put my heart in that review, it being my first. Not that I won't put the same effort in those that are to come. Pet Shop of Horrors and Boku no Pico, right? Haven't heard of them, but I'll definitely give them a try. Thanks again! |
Dec 11, 2019 4:05 PM
#88
| The death theory is cool and all, but since no one who worked on the anime came out and outright addressed it, or said they're dead, it's simply that: a theory. Canonically, them surviving and leaving the village is the ending, like in the other adaptations. The wikis and summaries of the last episode confirm this (for whatever that's worth). But that's the simple and boring answer. It's much more fun to prove that they are alive through logic, analysis and evidence, as others have done. This will only be a massive breakdown, possible through the efforts of those who came before me in analysing the scenes. I simply performed the task of verifying the truthfulness of their analysis, by watching what they had pointed out. Everything they said regarding certain 'details', so to say, was in fact what I verified to be true. When saying something I believe or came up with myself, I'll clarify with the words 'personal take'. I'll be addressing everything through 'points', in a random order. Thus it begins. The email: a few people believe it's false, given Kazuha's reaction in averting her gaze from Akira. Averting your eyes from someone in anime isn't a trope sorely used to indicate a person is lying. Saturos-001 pointed out the mere action is used in anime to give drama to a scene, in this case emphasising Kazuha's sadness in not having received any other texts. Personal take: I think it isn't just sadness, but also the fact she couldn't bear to stand Akira's look, wether it was because she was lying, or because she couldn't face the disappointment in Akira's eyes, knowing she couldn't give her the good news that the twins had sent her another text, rather than cutting all ties with them. End of the personal take. As for the email itself, it isn't lacking a from field, as some pointed out. The field is visible in the upper left, as it says 'FROM HARUKA KASUGANO' with his name written in Japanese. It also has a number on it: just like Haruka's two emails previously received in episode 12 were number 154 and 155, this one is number 114. Of course, it being a real email does not necessarily mean it was from Haruka, as she could have had it sent by someone pretending to be Haruka, meaning it was 'false' regardless. This wouldn't be possible to prove though. Lekkain even pointed out that her faking the email doesn't necessarily mean the twins are dead. Sounds ridiculous, but I'll explain why he thinks this afterwards. Personal take: the problem I always had with the email being a fake, is regarding one particular detail that Saturos-001 pointed out too: why say "we went to live with an artisan who had connections with our parents", when Kazuha simply could have said "Our relatives took us in"; why an artisan of all people? It just so happens that said artisan was also mentioned in the manga, and in the VN too, where the email is definitely from Haruka. Quite the coincidence, if you ask me. End of the personal take. The conspiracy theory. It goes as follows: assuming the twins did die, Akira would've found the bodies, since she is the Shrine's caretaker, and possibly the only one who ever goes to the lake. After having found them, she would have deceived everyone for their own good, with Kazuha's help, through the fake email. This theory falls apart on its own. Kudos to Lekkain for his keen thinking: as he stated, Akira was the one who asked Kazuha whether there were 'other messages since that one'. Which means she genuinely believed the text to be true and as a result, the twins to be alive. Which also proves that not only was she not a part of the conspiracy, but never found any bodies in the lake, despite being the first and probably only person who could've found anything in the first place. This means that Kazuha, when presumably faking the email, didn't really know the twins' fate. Which is why the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died, since no bodies were recovered, and Kazuha would have faked the email just to give closure to the whole situation, in case the twins never showed up again, regardless of wether they were dead or not. Their friends' reaction. Part personal take: Rodrigo Obelisco pointed out something very important, which seemingly goes unnoticed by many. In order for the text to be believed, wether it was a fake or not, three days minimum would have had to pass since their 'disappearance', since the email stated 'we arrived at our destination 3 days later'. Yet by the time the email was received, their friends had already stopped searching for them, since they were attending school normally, as if nothing major had happened. This is especially true for Nao Yorihime, who was also attending school like the rest, and seemed rather unfazed when Ryohei communicated the email to her, as if expecting it and knowing the twins were alive. Had they still been missing, she would have certainly had more of a 'reaction' to that message, so to say, given that minimum 3 days would have passed since the last time she saw them, and she was searching for Sora just as intensely as Haruka was. It is also important to notice that Haruka himself had notified their teacher, as was shown in one scene of episode 12, and likely pretty much everyone he came across, about Sora's disappearance. It is likely to assume that Nao had done the same. Yet by the time the text was received, no one, including Nao, was looking for them. And it has to be remembered that the twins were pretty well known in the small community, given their grandparents' reputation. For a search of them to be called off before having received the email, that is, before the 3 days, there are only 2 possibilities: they were either found dead, or alive. Given the fact that their bodies wouldn't have been found, as mentioned above (and I will go later into detail regarding this), this leaves them having been found alive, or rather, them showing up alive, as the only option. After all, it is highly unlikely that a simple text would have been enough to relieve Nao, their neighbour of all people, that the twins were alive, given that she still would've been searching for them before receiving the email, yet she wasn't. After surviving, Haruka would've notified her personally that both he and Sora were fine, which is why no one was searching for them later on, not even Nao herself, since she already knew they were alive. This is particularly evident in her dialogue with Kozue Kuranaga. She states that "for Haru the battle has just begun" and that she "cannot say for sure that Haru is wrong", lines that, apart from strongly implying she knew for a fact they were alive, wouldn't really makes sense if the twins were dead, especially the first one. What is there to fight for if the two are dead? End of the personal take. There is much more that has to be addressed, but this is quite a bit to think about already. I will continue later. |
KemboboAug 25, 2020 2:16 PM
Dec 12, 2019 4:59 PM
#89
| As promised, I will address everything else. The empty house and the bunny on the train. Everyone will remember their friends circling around the house and the scene where the famous torn bunny shows up. Fans aware of the death theory will also remember that said bunny (or a different one actually, since they couldn't be the same one) is later seen on the train with Sora. Therefore we have two bunnies: one torn, the other one on the train. This is what pretty much started the whole death theory and its strongest bit of 'evidence' (although I think it's more correct to say 'possible death flag'). Without it, there most likely wouldn't be a theory to begin with. Someone came up with the suggestion that their friends circling the house actually happened when the twins were still at the lake, that is, the following morning, not after they had received the text, as one would think. That would make sure the train scene happened after them searching the house, not before, as we are led to believe. I'm sure you already know where this is going. According to this guy, the torn up bunny and the one on the train are one and the same: after having survived, Haruka and Sora would've gone home and packed up, taking the bunny, which Sora would've sewed back together, with them, which is why it's seen intact on the train. Well, mostly intact, since there are sewing marks on it. Personal take: I really like this theory. Sora was shown to be sewing (or trying to) a few episodes earlier, so her being able to fix the bunny would count as nice character development. Would also explain why their friends waited three days before going to check the twins' house, by having them check it the following morning rather than 3 days later (I say this assuming the twins never showed up after the lake scene). So that's that. With the bunny dilemma solved, the death theory falls apart, correct?! Not really. As much as I checked, I couldn't find the sewing marks on the bunny. Either there aren't any, or Sora is that good at sewing. The main issue though, is when the house search scene would've happened. Given that they went there as a group, they very likely went to the house after having received the message. They would've wanted to check it out, as they did in the VN and manga, after finding out they had left, not before. If they had gone there before the message, that is, when the twins were still 'missing' (assuming they were, according to the death theory), they wouldn't have gone there as a group, since their efforts would have been better spent searching for them split up, not all together. There's also the fact that the house search scene is shown after the email scene. In other words, as much as I like the theory, the two bunnies are indeed different. End of the personal take. But is the twins being dead really the only interpretation for the bunny? Not really. A new one could have been bought. As Lekkain pointed out, while it's true that the original held sentimental value to Sora, since it reminded her of the mother, Sora was the one who tore it up in the first place, exactly because it reminded her of her mother, emphasising the bond Haru and Sora shared as siblings, which was ultimately the reason Haruka couldn't accept her as a lover, also because he felt it was a disgrace to their deceased parents. The scene where Haruka rejects Sora gives particular attention to this detail, since at one point they are both shown looking at the bunny as if it was a symbol of their problem being together. A new one, given as a gift from Haruka would either represent their new blooming love, or the fact that they had moved beyond such obstacle (the fact that they were siblings) and had accepted it. Haruka was there when Sora received the gift, and most likely knew where to get another one. That, or Sora just found one via the Internet. Personal take: while it isn't the first thing that comes to mind, this interpretation is just as valid as the death theory. End of the personal take. Another guy, Saturos-001 says something really curious: first off, there is no hint that the bunny being on the train signifies they are dead. He sees no connection between the two facts. Why does it being on the train mean they are dead? Second, it actually makes less sense if we consider them dead. Even in death, not only is it just a copy of the real torn up one Akira sees and therefore loses its sentimental value (assuming there was any), it's also useless to Sora since there is no need of a memento of the mom, given that she's going to meet her in heaven, where the train is (presumably) taking her. With that said, the only explanation left is that it's either an editor's mistake, or they just put it there to troll us. Personal take: I agree that the bunny doesn't necessarily have relevance to the fact they died, it's just one of the possible interpretations fans came up with. My mind tends to automatically think it was an editor's mistake, considering that Sora was almost always drawn with it, so it is plausible and not impossible that it could have been a mistake. The scenes weren't really back to back given that in-between there was that segment where Nao spoke to Kozue. Wouldn't be the first time such mistakes happen in anime (Ash's two Pikachus, anyone? Better still, Zoro and his twin? Or did he get lost so many times he ended up behind himself?). However, that feels like the easy way out, and with no way of knowing for certain, I will consider the bunny as intentionally placed, not necessarily with the interpretation that they died though. Could be they put it there to troll us a little: between the 'make me come' sentence and the 'I wanted Haru's curry' line, I wouldn't be surprised. End of the personal take. Regarding the house, Lekkain pointed out something very interesting which could be crucial. Everyone spots the bunny Akira sees. What hardly anyone notices is what Nao sees: the futon atop which the twins would sleep together. In an earlier scene, which was the last time anyone was seen in the house after Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave, the futon is shown with both its cushions on each of its corners and the blanket is set so that it covers only half the futon. What Nao sees is a bit different. The blanket covers pretty much the whole futon and there is only one cushion, which is more centered. The only possible explanation here is that someone would've slept on said futon, for it to be placed differently. Who other than the twins could've done so, after surviving the lake? Personal take: keen-eyed Lekkain strikes again. This could be invaluable proof for only one of the following: 1) the twins survived, went home and slept there before receiving the call from the artisan; 2) Goldilocks inhabits the Yosuga no Sora universe. My money's on Goldilocks. And in case you're thinking it could've been an editor's mistake, be reminded that so could have the bunny. Since I decided to consider that as intentional though, it's only fair that I do the same for the futon. And that's the problem: by considering both of them as intentional, the futon basically proves that the twins survived, since they would have slept there, and the bunny can assume one of its many other interpretations (not that they died in other words). If we consider both of them to be mistakes, that's worse, since, while there is no proof they set foot back home, there is no death theory to begin with either, given that the bunny would've been a mistake. Another thing I wanted to address personally is concerning Akira. She is the one who sees the torn up bunny. It's through her eyes that we see it too. The scene then cuts to a meditative Akira as she walks back to school with her friends, thinking about what she had seen days ago. This would make me think that the bunny wasn't meant so much for us to see and connect it to the one on the train (which is why my mind thinks the bunny on thr train was a mistake), rather it was meant for Akira to see. Otherwise they wouldn't have shown her pensive face afterwards. What she was thinking though is a mystery. That she could've thought the twins were dead just by seeing Sora's thrashed room and bunny is highly unlikely, since we only made that connection ourselves by seeing the bunny on the train, something she would have never been able to do, despite all her foresight. Since no one except Kozue and Nao knew about the twincest ordeal, Akira could've maybe figured it out by that point, through her keen intuition. She could've also simply been wondering what the hell had happened. I think there's a bit more to it though. What she sees isn't just the bunny in that room, but also Sora's torn up uniform and the box that contained Sora's cross, a gift given from Haruka when they were children, during the festival. A uniform which most likely would've never been used again. A box, memento of the festival gift, which never would have been used again. It was at that point that Akira truly knew the twins were never coming back. That message Kazuha got was indeed their last. They never bothered to tidy up their grandparents's, their family house, because they were never going to return there anyway. The empty house and Sora's room are a good example of this. So is the bunny: it being torn indicates the severed connection between the twins and their mother, therefore of their bond as siblings, since they were now lovers. They were running from everything and everyone (including their own family, since their relatives were coming to get them, another plot hole if we consider then dead) just to be together. The bunny itself being torn might also indicate Sora's status as 'a person that simply lived with Haruka as a doll' being terminated. But that last part was just my own interpretation. Could also that they added the bunny on the train on purpose, just to confuse us a little, make things vaguer. After all, the anime's goal was to promote the Visual Novel, so making the ending a bit more vague, not ambiguous though, would've prompted confused or curious viewers (such as myself) to see what fate truly awaited the twins, by having us check the VN. It definitely worked in my case. End of the personal take. There is still something left that I need to address, but this is quite enough for now. I'll continue this later. Next up is 'why even if we assume them to be dead, no bodies would have been found'. |
Dec 13, 2019 4:12 PM
#90
| Now I shall address why, even if we do assume the twins to be dead, no one would have found their bodies, meaning they would still be missing, their fate never to be known by any of the villagers. Starting with their friends. Akira Amatsume: it's already been established that she believed the text to be true, therefore the twins to be alive. Logically speaking, this means she wouldn't have found them dead, despite practically living there. This brings up the problem that whoever would have found the bodies would've had to do so sneaking past her and making sure she found nothing about it. Kozue Kuranaga: she is out of the question. "Do you really think they can be happy together?" is not a question you ask regarding someone who's dead. While she is different than her VN and Manga counterparts in dealing with the twincest ordeal, she no doubt would've been devastated in finding out they were dead, and would've most likely felt responsible for what happened. In the death theory, the whole idea of their friends hiding the twins' death is so that Kozue wouldn't find out and feel guilty. The Kozue we see still thinks the twins are alive and in the wrong by the end of the show. There's also the issue that she wasn't there when Akira's 'lake of Rebirth' speech was given. The whole reason Haruka found Sora was thanks to that speech, as shown in his flashback before heading to the lake. The others who were present were Sora, Nao and Ryohei. Kazuha Migiwa: partially the same reason as Kozue, she wasn't there during the lake speech and would've never figured out where Sora disappeared to, like Haruka did. And this is very important, since according to the 'death theory', she is aware that the twins are dead, reason why she would've faked the email. Ryohei Nakazato: his sentence to Akira "Just the two of them, living overseas, huh?" seems to suggest he also would've been unaware. Besides, no offence to him, but it's Ryohei, can you actually imagine him figuring out not only Sora's whereabouts, but also how to hide the bodies from Akira? Nao Yorihime: she is the more interesting case. She heard the speech and was aware of the twincest ordeal, so she could've connected the dots like Haruka did and headed to the lake from there. She wouldn't have necessarily found them dead though, as the omake ending spoils her saving them from drowning, but we'll get to that later. The problem with Nao finding them is that she would've had to beat Akira to it. Nao's last words to Haruka were 'I'll try other places, like Ryohei's house'. That detour would've delayed her from getting there sooner. Akira on the other hand was alerted to someone's presence the moment Haruka touched her gate. Since it has already been proven that Akira would've been completely unaware of their death, in order for Nao to find any corpses without Akira noticing, she would have had to elude her, find the bodies, hide them so that Akira wouldn't find them, backtrack to Kazuha (since cellphones weren't really a thing in that village, only Kazuha and the twins possessed them), ask for her help in disposing of the corpses and have her fake the message. Does this seem plausible to you? She would've then had to put on an act with Kozue. Would she really be able to say something like "That's why I believe they can be happy together" while smiling, yet knowing they are dead? She would've been the most devastated out of all of them. Knowing Nao's character, kind to a fault, to the point where she'd wish the guy who cheated on her with his sister a happy life, I doubt she would've given Kazuha the burden of tricking her friends either. She more likely would've just kept it hidden from everyone, Kazuha included, and dealt with the matter herself. Again, the only one who could've found them was Akira. She lived there, knew those grounds better than anyone, and if they had been searching for them, the shrine's area would've been hers to patrol. Yet she never found anything. Any random villager: definitely not. Apart from the 'eluding Akira' problem, if they had found out the twins died, the whole village would've known about. Rumours spread quickly, especially in a small town All of the twins' friends would know of their death, yet none of them did. The only way the death theory can not fall apart completely is, ironically, if no bodies were found in the first place. Meaning Kazuha would've indeed faked the email without actually knowing what had happened to them, as Lekkain had intelligently predicted. A lot of supporters of the death theory mention Kazuha being able to cover up their deaths through her wealth. Problem is, how do you cover up something you don't even know about? How is one text enough to convince everyone, including their neighbour, Nao, that was looking for them, that they are alive and well, especially if said text arrived 3 days after the twins' 'disappearance'? How exactly would their deaths had legally been taken care of if nobody knew of said deaths in the first place? Just more plot holes the death theory fails to address. I will continue later on. |
KemboboDec 13, 2019 4:16 PM
Dec 14, 2019 6:06 PM
#91
| Almost there, bear with me a little more. The train scene. Out of a dark tunnel, into the deep blue sky...a beautiful image of them going to the afterlife, right? Maybe not so much. Many think this scene is a metaphor of them reaching the afterlife, due to the bunny, the fact that you can only see clouds, and that this mimics the start of the anime too perfectly. Bunny aside, since we've already addressed it, Saturos-001 points out that us seeing only clouds is due to camera angling, nothing more. Wouldn't be the first time it happens in anime. When the shot is taken from above, a roadbed is visible, so the train isn't exactly floating to heaven. He doubts the rail tracks to heaven would even have tunnels. Are there mountains in the afterlife too? Lekkain adds to this the fact they are carrying a brown suitcase with them, something they wouldn't really need in the afterlife, would they? Where would they have gotten it anyway? What would have they been able to put in it if they were dead? Did it just materialize there for no reason? Saturos-001 also wonders where they got the Pochi box. A holy vending machine, perhaps? Personal take: regarding the camera angling issue...Saturos is right, this wouldn't be the first time in anime only clouds are visible. In this anime no less, I might add. A few scenes of its opening come to mind: the first one where Sora is staring out of the Window, all that can be seen are clouds. The real kicker though? That beautiful scene were Haruka is peddling with Sora behind him. What's in the background? Only clouds and the sky! The other example, perhaps more fittingly, concerns the very first scene of the anime. When the train heading to the Okukozome gets out of the tunnel, all you can see around it are clouds and the sky, as if it was drifting through them. Yet I'm pretty sure they weren't dead while heading to the village, wouldn't you agree? And trust me, there are other examples that I'd rather not mention now, we've been here long enough. This would make you think the background consisting of only clouds isn't so much a symbolic choice in the case of the train scene, rather a stylistic one. The final scene of the VN gives quite an important meaning to the sky, as in, no matter how far from each other they may be, Haru and Sora will always be connected by that same sky (hence the title 'Yosuga no Sora' 'Sky of Connection'). The name of the last episode, as Saturos-001 reminds us, is simply a play on their names (Haruka na Sora), like the name of all the other episodes. Perhaps a reference to the sequel fan disk that continued where the VN left off? The 'faraway sky' in this case is that of the country where their parents' acquaintance lives. The same name is also used for the last chapter of the manga, where they also survive. Another thing I'd like to personally add is that in the train scene, both Haru and Sora are casting shadows, in other words their bodies block the light's rays, proof that they still have their bodies and aren't just wondering souls on a train. Curiously, they are also wearing different clothes to those of the lake scene. How would have they changed clothes if they were dead? The clothes are also different to those of the initial train scene at the beginning of the anime. As are the train itself, and the luggage they are carrying. So the final train scene doesn't exactly copy the first one, rather it functions as a BookEnd, as Saturos-001 pointed out. Occasionally used, they are mirroring final scenes of usually the first ones, which highlight important changes. In this case, the twins arrived at Okukozome as siblings, but left it as lovers. Coincidentally, they just happen to be wearing the exact same clothes and carrying the same brown suitcase with which they left the village in the Visual Novel, where they also survive the lake. What are the odds, I wonder? All in all, a pretty standard-looking train scene, which doesn't present any surreal elements to it. The fact that they were out of money. I'll address this briefly: while it's true that they could have had help from their relatives, or had enough money to afford a few busses or trains, in both the VN and manga, their parents' acquaintance, the artisan, paid the fees for the trip. The artisan in the anime would have done the same, especially for the plane ticket. People think that the strongest bit of evidence of them being alive is the text. I strongly disagree however, and what comes next is stronger than anything read so far in proving they are alive. Save the best for last, right? Until next time though. |
Dec 15, 2019 5:07 PM
#92
| Time to end this. The lake scene. This is by far the strongest proof that they are alive. Perhaps the only thing worth calling proof. The moment we see them lying on those stairs defines the twins Haruka and Sora as still being alive. Few possibilities have been given to justify the death theory: that it was either their afterlife, or a dying hallucination, or that they were reborn in another world/reality/you name it. Some, noticing that it couldn't be either of these, since they were proven not to be the case, even tried to call it a recreated reality just to keep the death theory intact. One step at a time though. How do you prove something is a dying hallucination? More importantly, how do you prove it isn't? Saturos-001 was apparently able to answer the second question. There were certain details in that scene that wouldn't be possible for a hallucination. For starters, Sora wouldn't have been able to notice Haruka's bruise on his left knee, the one he got moments earlier when falling off his bike, or his barely visible belt. Yet both these elements are present on Haruka when the two are confessing their love to one another. It couldn't have been Sora hallucinating. Was it Haruka then? Not even. The steps they were lying on were covered by the forest and could not be seen from were Haruka entered the lake. He wouldn't have been able to hallucinate being on them in the first place. Personal take: there's also another issue that came to my mind and that Saturos-001 addressed too. It being a hallucination would mean one of the twins was a fake, projected by the mind of the other. In other words, the confession wouldn't be worth anything. Coincidentally however, we see both of them on the train together, and we know they solved all the issues between them. Which is, what do you know, the same thing that happened during the lake scene. In other words, the lake scene was a moment shared between the two of them, not exclusive to only one of them, all the more reason why it couldn't be a dying hallucination. End of the personal take. Then it had to be their afterlife! Easy to prove it wasn't. Lekkain once again studies the scene carefully. Not only are they wearing the same clothes, Haruka also still has that bruise mentioned before. Most importantly though, they are both wet (Haruka even says this to Sora), a reminder that they were in the lake not too long ago. The devs even went the extra mile and drew water drops on their faces. It doesn't get more obvious than that. Oh wait, it actually does... the real proof that they did get out of there though, as if them being wet wasn't enough? The camera shot taken from above. It shows a trail of water leading from the direction of the lake's surface to where the twins are lying. Once you see it, it's pretty obvious what it is. The water marks of someone being dragged, that someone being Haruka. People still struggle to believe them getting out of the lake was a possibility. As Saturos-001 said however, it isn't important HOW they survived, fact is they DID survive. And the trail of water proves this. As for how, much has been speculated. Maybe Sora saved them both as she did in both the VN and Manga. Nowhere does the anime prove she cannot swim. In fact Lekkain was able to point out that before Haruka dove towards her, she was floating just fine. It's when he started hindering her that they both started sinking. Once he was done wailing, Sora would've been able to save him (add in adrenaline rush in a desperate situation), like she did in both other adaptations. She hadn't passed out, given that her eyes were still half-open. She even tilted her head slightly when looking at Haruka while they were sinking. Personal take: I'd like to add that she was lying on top of Haruka, besides him to his left, a possible hint that she could've been the one to drag him. End of the personal take. Another possibility is that Akira could've saved them. She had been alerted to someone's presence and in episode 1 she was able to lift 4 grocery bags with ease. Many people bet their money on Nao. You don't get to be swimming team captain for nothing. That, and the omake ending spoils it. Putting how they survived aside though, the water trail proves it wasn't their afterlife. For the same reason they couldn't have been reborn. And the recreated reality bit is just as bad as suggesting that Akira was remembering badly and saw a torn bunny where there wasn't one. It's basically grasping at straws. Maybe that was a recreated reality in her mind? As was the whole arc. Personal take: why fool them with a recreated reality? And who would've fooled them? Why go through all the details of trail of water, wet twins...even going as far as adding small droplets of water on their hair and face? This scene is truly definitive proof that they survived the lake. End of personal take. Fans also noted that Sora never answered Haruka's question on wether they were alive are dead. Saturos-001 proves his cunning as a philosophy teacher once again. Haruka's was never a question to begin with. He did not ask 'Are we alive/dead?'. He stated 'We're alive, right?", as if to reassure her that they were indeed alive. The tone with which he said it, the way he smiled as he said it, the way Sora silently smiled back at him, as if she was happy to have him reassuring her of such a thing. It all leads to the sentence being more of a reassurance than a question. Personal take: I can confirm that in the VN this form of speech (question, right?) was used occasionally, with the answer not necessarily being given, because it was a granted one. Example: "As long as it's edible, right?" This sentence uttered by Ryohei was never answered, mainly because the answer is in of itself inside Ryohei's presumed question. The lake scene itself is also way too similar to that of the VN. In the VN, they almost drown, are saved, they confess their love, they have sex. In the anime, the scene is almost the exact same, minus the runtime and shorter dialogue due to episode time constraints, and, unlike in the VN, the sex scene isn't explicitly show (I'm glad they cut it out), but is outright hinted to have happened when they are hugging each other half naked (another reminder they still have their bodies). End of the personal take. As a finale, I'll address the plot holes left by either take on the ending. Plot holes of them living: -the bunny and that's it. No, seriously, just a bunny. And only if we consider it's most popular interpretation, that it is related to their death, since other interpretations were given. You know that personally I think it was an editor's mistake for the reasons I mentioned before, but for fairness I won't consider it as such, since it would pretty much take down the whole death theory (and what fun would that be?). Might have been put there on purpose as 'sequel bait'. The fact that only Haru and Sora are ever seen together after the lake scene, without having interacted with anyone, might have been a plot hole hadn't it been for the fact that the same happened in the VN: not showing them interact with anyone doesn't mean they did not. In fact, their friends' reactions would suggest otherwise. Plot holes left if we consider them dead: -the lake scene:if it wasn't legit then what was it? Afterlife, Rebirth, hallucination and recreated reality are out of the picture. What else could it be if not them surviving? -who found the bodies: definitely not Akira, I can tell you that much. And she was perhaps the only who could've done so. Then who did? Were there maybe no bodies to find in the first place? And if no bodies were found, why stop looking for them? -Nao's reactions and dialogue: they speak for themselves, it is strongly hinted through her dialogue that she knows them to be alive. 'The fight for Haru has just begun'. Except it hasn't, cuz he's dead? -the futon in the house: did the blanket and cushions magically move or did someone just decide to sleep there after almost dying? You cannot prove Goldilocks inhabits this universe. -the fact that no one was searching for them before the text: what, did they just give up and think 'ah, they're probably fine'? Especially true in Nao's case. -the text being not only real and legitimately a normal email, but it also being detailed and similar to that of the VN: both texts (or all 3 if we consider the manga) did mention an acquaintance of their parents: the artisan. Quite the coincidence, wouldn't you agree? -the train scene: between the fact they still have physical bodies, have changed clothes, are eating Pochi and even have a suitcase with them, I don't know what's worse. Probably the suitcase, since they wouldn't need it if they were going to heaven. Oh, and the clothes and suitcase are the same of when they left the town (alive), in the VN. What are the odds?! -Haruka's dialogue: a bit of a nitpick, but what would the point of his speech to Sora be. 'I don't care what others think', 'let's search for a path together'. Except it doesn't matter anymore, you're dead? -Sora's one line: 'I thought I had lost you!' Implying like in the other adaptations, that despite having saved him, she thought she might have been too late already. -The twin's relatives: they were coming to get them, as Haruka had confirmed to them before Sora disappeared. What would've happened to them had the twins actually died? Final verdict: Haru and Sora are alive. The end. Case closed. Sorry, I just felt like saying that. Overall, a straightforward ending. And an expected one at that. I know I could've just jumped straight to the lake scene explanation and solved everything there, since it basically proves them to be alive, but where would've the fun in that be? The long road is sometimes the funnest one...kudos again to Lekkain and Saturos-001 for finding all the proof. Without them, a general debunking of the theory would've been impossible. |
KemboboDec 16, 2019 3:19 PM
May 24, 2020 3:55 PM
#93
| Okay, this is big; we might get an OVA following Sora's route!!! https://mobile.twitter.com/katahito/status/1252231271142445061 |
May 26, 2020 10:23 PM
#94
| Ofc they are alive. The dialogue talking among their close friends in the end proved that they go somewhere place outside the country. Idk where. The messages clear it all with the actual reality. Why even the theory got radical into stating that they are dead? Watch it again, then. |
 Hide and seek is the best offline games on this fatamorgana-called-world-thing. Please comment nicely. I am newbie here. I'm level  on mal-badges. View my badges  |
May 28, 2020 5:40 AM
#95
Saturos-001 said: Luananee said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Lekkain said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Saturos-001 said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: Beltzebrute said: Lekkain said: They are alive. Unless you mean to tell me that dead people can: a) Get wet; b) Have sex; c) Not know they're dead, which sounds like something M. Night Shamalam would come up with (not going to spoil you which movie I'm talking about, but those who've seen it know); d) Eat Pocki while travelling on a train people think will take them to heaven, which for some reason is quite similar to the one they took to get to the village in the first place (it has those ventilators on the ceiling), while carrying luggage with them, cause of course you need a suitcase for the afterlife! ....... Jokes aside, I really do believe this. Sora can swim and if you look carefully when they're lying on the staircase to the lake you can see a trail of water coming out of it, all the way to where they are, a result of her dragging her wet brother to safety; despite being weak and frail, she has shown moments of increased strength, like when she destroyed her whole room, or slapped Haru to the ground when fending off a mosquito; add in the adrenaline boost and will to save the person she cared about the most while they were drowning, and her saving him isn't that far-fetched (she did so in the VN and manga). I once read of this person who saved someone who weighed 40 kilograms more that him, simply thanks to said 'adrenaline rush'. Sora never did confirm with words to Haru whether they were alive or not, but she did smile, which can be seen as a yes, in a way; do remember that in the manga Haru asked her a similar question (Am I still alive?) and Sora never answered, yet in that adaptation it's given for granted that they're alive (since it's pretty obvious). Kazuha tilting her head to the right and looking away while denying having received other texts doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about it; after all, the anime trope isn't only used to show that someone is lying, but also to add extra drama to a scene, emphasising in this case Kazuha's sadness from not having received any more news from the twins; that's up to the viewer's interpretation. A lot of people point out that the email she received was a fake, since it had no from field. This could be true, although it's important to consider that Haru would have had to send said email from a device that wasn't his or Sora's cellphone, since both of them would have been fried due to the water in the lake. He could have done so from a device in Europe, since by the time the email was sent, it confirmed the twins had reached their destination. Also, while their friends are checking out the house, when Nao is looking on the inside you can see the sheet and cushions the twins used to sleep on. If you remember clearly, in a previous scene, when Haruka discoveres Sora's suicide note, there are 2 cushions, both on each corner of the sheet. In the scene where Nao is inspecting the room however, you can only see 1 cushion and it's rather centered compared to where it was in the earlier scene, which was the last time anyone entered the house before Sora disappeared, Haru being the last one to leave. The only possible explanation I see for the cushion having been moved is someone having slept there the previous nights, that someone being the twins after they survived their near-death experience. And finally, the intact bunny on the train: someone pointed out in the WMG section of 'Yosuga no Sora-Tv tropes' that it was confirmed to be an editor's mistake. Even if this weren't true (and I do believe it isn't true, because I myself couldn't find such information), remember that Haru was there when his mother gave Sora the bunny, which means he most likely knew where to get another one, one that not only would be a memento of the mother, but also a symbol of them starting a new life together, not as siblings, but as lovers trying to find happiness under the distant European sky... These are the reasons why I believe they survived. Edit: I realised 2 things a few weeks ago: 1) the email actually says 'From: Haruka Kasugano (name written in Japanese)'. What it actually lacks is a sender's address and a date; 2) the email being a fake doesn't actually prove they died; I've already explained the reasons for this last point though on other Yosuga no Sora MAL discussions, so I'll avoid repeating myself here. Just thought I'd point these out. Well...shit, you're everywhere in these discussions! I'll admit, I was in doubt before regarding their fate and decided to suspend my judgement until further notice. However, now that I've read all the posts (and I mean ALL OF THEM!), yours are the ones that provide the most evidence and attention to detail. I'm referring to the others you posted on MAL too, since you just happen to be all over the place and didn't put all the details into this single post (you could have been more consistent from this point of view, but whatever). Despite all the doubts I had before, now I just cannot unsee the Kasugano twins being alive and living happily abroad. Guess I'm forced to vote for them being alive now, huh? So much for my suspended judgement... But seriously dude, how in the name of everything that is incest did you notice that misplaced cushion in the 'Detective Nao' scene?! You're pretty much the first and only guy that pointed that out. Everyone else, including myself, just tended to focus on the bunny Akira sees. Wish I had your attention to detail... It's not so much attention to detail than it is 'rewatch half of the last episode many times'. After a few watches you're bound to notice something new related to whether they're dead/alive. I just happened to notice more stuff that pointed at them being alive. The only other ending I ended up watching even more times is that of John Carpenter's 'The Thing', and I still can't figure that one out. Wait, seriously?! Did you really just waste time rewatching half an episode just to figure something out?! Sucks to be you! Should have just come here and read the comments! Yeah...just like you wasted your time reading ALL THE COMMENTS! I had already read them, although I wasn't satisfied enough, so I decided to rewatch just to see if something had been missed. Turns out, as you yourself pointed out, that no one had noticed the cushion being misplaced. Or maybe they did, but never wrote about it or didn't think it was important. The other 3 details that led me to think they survived were the trail of water, the bruise on Haruka's leg and the suitcase on the train. Rewatching the scenes in conjunction with reading these comments did help in determining their fate. Also...you first compliment me for my attention to detail (which in all honesty I lack) to then just call me a sucker for 'wasting time'; what gives?! Sorry about that last one, I didn't mean to insult you. Thing is, I had this view of the ending being perfectly ambiguous and thought nothing could change it. Nothing did. In fact while reading through the comments, I felt even more convinced of my view. That is, until I got to yours, which just happened to be the last ones in each discussion. By piecing everything you wrote together, I realised Haru and Sora were indeed alive, and that the ending is much more straightforward than I originally thought. As much as I tried to deny it, I couldn't unsee that anymore. Hell, it kind of feels stupid just to even consider the thought that they died! So, while I do kind of admire you for being able to change my view, I also somewhat resent you for breaking it completely, which is probably why I was a bit mean before. I now think they're alive and it's all your fault! Stupid touch screen, I almost ended up reporting you for no reason. Someone mentioned that either ending was fitting, since they are both together and happy at the end of it. Was it you perhaps? If so, why feel frustrated about your views changing if either end was good from the start? It's not so much which ending fits best for me. I would have been fine with both. It's more the fact that someone was able to change my mind through reason and logic. I just can't stand it when someone does that! I'm usually consistent with my thoughts, so when they change due to factors that aren't determined by me, it irritates me. A LOT! That explains it; though change is good occasionally. Given your current location and sentence on your profile, I'd say you're Italian and you've done or are completing your studies in Italy. If that is the case, I'm sure you've heard of, or even studied the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio: one of his catchphrases was 'in order to be consistent with myself, I need to constantly change myself.' Something along those lines at any rate. I'm sure you can figure out how that makes sense. Still, I'm surprised on how 1 guy was able to change your mind: all he did was summarize parts of the last episode all over MAL pointing out the already evident details; anyone should've noticed them without help from the comment section. Yourself included. I will give him credit though for how he debunked the Kazuha/Akira fake text plot point through logic. I appreciate those who show keen thinking aside from a persistent attention to detail. Well sooorrrryyyy if my observational skills suck! But the last thing I expected was, no offence, for a Sri-Lankan, if that is your nationality, to mention one of our poets. How did you know of him? Scratch that. How did you form such precise thoughts on the ending within less than 3 days? And how are you so sure about it; the ending, I mean? I teach Philosophy; Nietzsche's Ubermensch is often compared to D'Annunzio's Superman. I am expected to know one just as well as the other. Just as I am expected to process thoughts as quickly as possible. I apply this to anime as well; you can give a variety of interpretations to some elements of the ending: the lack of an answer, a look which may hide a lie behind it, a torn up object then magically restored in the following scenes...if we assume it to be the same object. The one thing we cannot interpret is two sopping wet people lying on stairs with a water trail leading to them. Unless you are somehow able to prove they are zombies, then such beings are still alive. Everything else, every interpretation after that, I base on that scene. That is why I'm sure of it. That isn't to say I am unwilling to change my thoughts: I'm still hoping someone can whack my brain a little with some good reasoning and convince me otherwise...somehow. That's why I still haven't voted, even though I'm currently certain of the outcome. I feel like I'm being schooled again... "Still haven't voted, but sure of the outcome?" Aren't you just delaying the inevitable? I'd be surprised if 1 guy was able to change YOUR thoughts! Witty reply, I'm glad you noticed the discrepancy in both my thought process and phrasing. Though I'd rather wait until the end of the week before voting, in hopes that someone may cause me to doubt myself. Until then, I have a few brains to fill. Then start by filling your own brain with some of this info: the second half of the lake scene definitely isn't their afterlife, given all the facts that prove otherwise, but for all we know it could be a dying hallucination or some sort of recreated reality to give them a chance to confess to each other before they are sent off. The text could still very well be a fake, given Kazuha's attitude; maybe she found the bodies on her own and got rid of them through her wealth. In the opening theme, we see Sora at the bottom of the lake becoming of purple hue. Purple in Japanese culture represents nobility; on a more general note though, it can depict magic, as in the same magic that was perhaps preparing/taking her soul to the afterlife. Sora not answering could be because she honestly didn't know, or because she knew there was something fishy on how they survived. You bring up a good point about the bunny not making sense/being relevant to their death, so I won't address it. However, in the same train scene, which is exclusive to the anime, all you can see is clouds. Perhaps they are going to the distant sky (name of the episode), as in...that of heaven. Even if this doesn't happen to convince you they're dead, it should at least make you consider the possibility the ending was left ambiguous. Why are you of all people responding? Haven't you already given your proof regarding them being alive? If so, have you already changed your mind on their fate? Or is there more to this? I won't address your points now simply because I'm out of time. I will reply later though, so be ready. Changed my mind? Who knows... A little bird just happened to mention your dilemma to me. Well, it was more like a Revan. I mean raven! Raven... You'll get the stupid joke if you check his profile pic. Pardon my tardiness in replying, I was busy. Your joke assumes that I know something of Star Wars Expanded Universe, which I just happen to, barely; you're right, it is stupid. Both parties, brother and sister, were active during the second half of the lake scene, since they both renewed their love together. It being a hallucination would mean one of the two was a fake. There's also the issue of where the 'hallucination' would have happened. Harem boy never got a chance to see the stairs where he would have been lying on while chasing after his sister. Sissy on the other hand never noticed the bruise her brother was carrying on his knee. Yet both the elements are present during Lake Scene: Part 2. To put it simply, neither of the two had enough elements for such an accurate hallucination to occur in the first place. A conveniently recreated reality that just happens to have a trail of water leading to them? Next thing you'll tell me the whole Sora arc was just class prez having a bad dream. I used the lake scene as the cause to determine the effect that they are alive; you changed the effect to 'they're dead', but in order to do so had to alter the cause to 'Lake Scene: Part 2 isn't real' with nothing proving that it is fake. Simply put, Lake Scene: Part 2 happened and proves them to be alive. With that out of the way, I could just stop here, since as you said 'the lake scene was enough to prove them alive'. But for completion, I'll address your other points too. Purple magic Sora works more against you than in your favour. That same magic could be what was saving them instead, fulfilling the title 'Lake of Rebirth'. What was reborn wasn't the two of them physically, rather their bond as lovers. Would also mean that sister really didn't know what had saved them, which is why she was hesitant in answering. I still back my claim though that she didn't answer simply because there was no need to. I've already expressed why the text is real and what was up with Mrs Violinist's attitude. As you stated in one of your posts, Shrine girl would have been the first to find the bodies, but found nothing, considering she believed the text; Kazuha wasn't even present during the 'Lake allows you to be reborn' speech Akira gave, meaning that out of all the friends, she's the only one who wouldn't have even been able to guess Sora's location, like the brother did. She found no bodies, in other words. Not that there were any bodies to be found in the first place. Are there also tunnels and road beds when going to heaven? Because I recall the train traveling through a tunnel and on a road bed. The final scene mirrors the first one of the anime almost perfectly; it's called a 'bookend': the difference is that they travelled to the village as brother and sister, but left it as lovers. The fact that only clouds can be seen is due to camera angling, nothing more; also, because anime. Do you have any idea how many characters in anime happen to have only clouds in the background, yet aren't dead? One would think they're floating in the air. It's quite fitting they did it this way in this particular case: the anime is called 'Sky of Connection' after all. The only distant sky they are going to is that of the country the artisan who had connections with their parents lives in. And the name of the episode is simply a play on their names "Haruka na Sora"; is that also the name of what people refer to as the sequel fan disk of the VN? Could be that the name of the last episode is a hint to what happens after the anime: the fan disk, or a season 2 which never occurred; but that is just speculation. I've only heard bits and pieces, but is it true that the name of the last episode is the same as the last chapter of the manga, where they live (so I heard); and that there is also a text which Mrs Violinist receives at the end? If so, that doesn't help the death theory at all. You forgot to address the suitcase. In this particular kind of anime, where each route is given a precise conclusion, there's no such thing as an ambiguous ending. It can only be one: they are either dead, or alive. But you already knew all this, didn't you? You never did change your mind, you simply tried to satisfy a friend's request, playing devil's advocate even if you didn't believe in what you were typing. Each of your sentences wasn't a statement, rather a 'what if' scenario. I appreciate that you tried to sustain a thesis which wasn't yours to begin with; unfortunately, you only ended up strengthening my conviction that they survived. While I am a bit late, as promised, I will be voting now. I shall...Actually, I'm done. You know...I feel like I want a picture of you, just so I can make a 'I'm out of time' meme. But, um, oops! Seems I got the opposite effect of what I had intended. Sorry! But yeah, we did get to almost identical conclusions; and yes, you got me, I had already imagined what your answers would have been, since I got to pretty similar ones in determining they are alive; what I never expected was for you to figure me out so soon... and I never addressed the suitcase because...what the hell was I supposed to say? They are carrying 'Heaven Tunics: Incest Edition'?! Sorry Belzie, I flopped on this one. Massive spoiler alert. Just to clear it up, they also survive in both VN and manga. In the manga there's also the text received by Kazuha mentioning the artisan who had connections to their parents. Only difference is that in the manga they go on a trip, in the anime they leave for good. End of the spoilers. Now, something's been bugging me about you, so let me get this off my chest, and do answer me honestly: you never did intend to change your mind, did you? Despite wanting them dead, you knew all along the outcome would be that they were alive from the very beginning. I bet you were only looking for someone to debate with, whose points you could debunk like you did with mine. Of course, I could be just sprouting nonsense, so feel free to correct/insult me if so. What? I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm a simple almost middle-aged man who just wanted some convincing regarding a dumb topic. Okay fine, you asked me to be honest: I was looking for someone to debate with; and yes, I never was going to change my mind, given that after 9 years since airing nothing new would have been found to sustain an already weak death theory. I did start out by saying it was a dumb topic, didn't I?Congratulations, you were right. Have a banana. Debating wasn't my only objective though. My other intention was to find out the following: how on earth people believe them to be dead? Even if we did interpret some moments to be possible death flags, there is one problem: the lake scene exists and it proves them to be alive. It doesn't matter HOW they survived; wether they were saved by the sister, Glasses girl, Shrine girl, magic, or a yellow submarine. Fact is, they DID survive. How do people still believe they're dead? Is it because they want to? Did they not notice the trail of water? Or the fact that they were both drenched? Do they scoff off the scene as a dying hallucination, even though it isn't? Or, even more absurdly, do they convince themselves it's a recreated reality? This is what I aimed to grasp. I said this anime wasn't memorable, aside from maybe the incest; well, now I'll forever remember the fact that in the ending people got misled by a bunny. I now take my leave. I've already spent more time on this poll than what I had originally intended. Wow, I didn't think such a pointless poll existed. The ending was pretty straightforward actually. Still, it's surprising to see that there are a few people that believe them to be dead. It's too obvious they are alive. Despite this, I also voted them dead, just for shits and giggles, lol. It's as you said. They either didn't notice the stuff that proved the two mains alive, trail of water, wet twins (in more ways than one, XD), or they just wanted a darker ending, either because it would have been slightly more fitting, given the seriousness of the topic, and I can agree with this, or because they thought the anime was shit. The recreated reality bit sounds like bullshit honestly, given this is not a supernatural type of anime (and even if it were a supernatural one, which it isn't, it would still be pretty dumb, given all the details involved in the scene). Might as well say the whole arc was just a 'recreated reality'. Maybe some did it like me, and voted no just to be a troll, lol. I cannot honestly think of any other reason. Which brings me to why I think this poll is pointless. Our votes won't determine their fate. Neither will our interpretations, not that there's much room for interpretation in the first place. As you said, at best what can be interpreted is HOW they survived (I support the yellow submarine theory, XD). That they DID survive is a fact, as the anime portrayed it as such, with no room for interpretation, through what you call Lake Scene: Part 2. Spoiler below for the Monogatari series. And I thought Kaiki Deiishu being dead was a stupid theory (how do ghosts grow a fucking beard?!) this one's way worse. Misled by a bunny indeed, lol. Glad someone else noticed the details. People keep mentioning to me the Monogatari series for one reason or the other. I think I'll try it if I ever have the chance. Then I can come back and see what that spoiler was all about. I've just checked your profile: 'genre challenges', eh? If horror is this month's one, try Pet Shop of Horrors. I personally don't like it, but it may intrigue you. Oh, but you must watch Boku no Pico! It's probably the most horrifying thing I've ever seen; It'll definitely win your challenge! And, I've read that review you mentioned: not too bad for a first. Took me forever to watch, but I'm glad I did. Great series overall. And I now finally get the reference. |
May 28, 2020 5:44 AM
#96
badabass said: Ofc they are alive. The dialogue talking among their close friends in the end proved that they go somewhere place outside the country. Idk where. The messages clear it all with the actual reality. Why even the theory got radical into stating that they are dead? Watch it again, then. Crap, this debate has come a long way. I suppose it doesn't really matter anymore though. As the comment about you states, plans are in motion to try and crowd fund a sequel OVA to Sora's route. That is more than a clear indication of what their ultimate fate is in the anime, torn bunny or not. |
May 28, 2020 6:08 AM
#97
Saturos-001 said: Crap, this debate has come a long way. I suppose it doesn't really matter anymore though. As the comment about you states, plans are in motion to try and crowd fund a sequel OVA to Sora's route. That is more than a clear indication of what their ultimate fate is in the anime, torn bunny or not. Haha. Sorry, i dont have time to watch the others quote, even if its near me. I only come here again because simply the notification. Yeah, its good to have OVA to clear the ending. However i just wanna tell my opinion. Thats it. No hate, no debate. |
| Hide and seek is the best offline games on this fatamorgana-called-world-thing. Please comment nicely. I am newbie here. I'm level on mal-badges. View my badges |
May 29, 2020 9:19 AM
#98
badabass said: Saturos-001 said: Crap, this debate has come a long way. I suppose it doesn't really matter anymore though. As the comment about you states, plans are in motion to try and crowd fund a sequel OVA to Sora's route. That is more than a clear indication of what their ultimate fate is in the anime, torn bunny or not. Haha. Sorry, i dont have time to watch the others quote, even if its near me. I only come here again because simply the notification. Yeah, its good to have OVA to clear the ending. However i just wanna tell my opinion. Thats it. No hate, no debate. Yeah, I was just expressing my surprise to how things had progressed since the last time I'd been here. I was mostly referring to the enormous posts of that Kembobo guy. I agree with you though on them being alive. And having an OVA planned just confirms what was already shown to us. |
Jun 26, 2020 6:23 AM
#99
| In my opinion, sora and haruka is alive because in the lake they drowned was called a "lake of Reborn" so I think they are alive. |
Aug 22, 2020 2:59 PM
#100
| (first, sorry for bad English) I think they're dead, they don't have any money to travel to Europe and that bunny was a memento so simply buying another one is a little strange, then we saw in beach episode that haru bad at swimming, like sora (that doesn't need to explain, we saw that right?:/) But i must sey, this anime isn't a kind of mystery anime or like that, so maybe all of this things like another bunny or messy House or no money happend because of bad writing!! Or mistake of anime creaTors And thay're actually alive! Anyway, I'm going to play the VN and find that out |
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