| Watching Cowboy Bebop as we speak inspired me to ask this question. The caveat being that yes, blah blah, many of us including myself already consider there to be no single objective criteria for judging any artwork (and that includes not just anime, but live cinema, music, literature, video games on the console, etc.), but with every person trying to think as objectively as they feel themselves able to, as far as what the consensus opinion in the industry is and what anime hits all the right marks notes for the highest artistic standards in the medium. On Bebop, I'm thoroughly enjoying it as the premise is creative and novel and the use of music and blend of different musical genres creates a very specific atmosphere for the show. The animation is maybe some of the best I've ever seen in an anime. With the soundtrack and audiovisual wise in general, it creates a show that feels apart from any other and just emanates high production values out of every orifice. But..........I'm personally not a fan of episodic story structure (same issue which lowered my score a bit for other otherwise great series like Mushishi and Kino no Tabi) as I just get much more out of pure serials. It is nice to be able to pick a lot of the episodes up out of order at any given time if that's your preference and could see rewatching some this way, but it's not my preference. So do you have any shows like this? Going by the most objective criteria you're familiar with, they tick every box on the checklist and excel in sound, animation, writing, and overall direction, but they're out of the running for your favorites due to more subjective concerns? Bebop would still be an 8 for me thus far, but if certain things were changed it could easily be a 9 or even potentially a 10, but that would make it a much different show so it's kind of moot. We often hear about the big name standards that some people despise like Dragonball and Naruto, but what of those you think are fantastically produced but less your cup of tea? |
| i say the slice of life or healing anime (iyashikei) in general since they are objectively made for like cinema therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_therapy as for specific anime i say Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood simply because its a great gateway anime |
| Cowboy Bebop can't be "objectively good" because imo it sucks. Everything is subjective. |
 ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
| Legend of the galactic heroes The story is amazing and as epic as it can be, the characters are great and are given time to grow, the dialogues are the best part and second to none, the animation might not be the greatest but it sure is on point. The music, well the man who though classics would be best suited for the story and went with it is a genius. Honestly the only reason it isn't in my favourite is because I haven't finished it yet and it can be a bit too heavy at times |
JoyBoy_316 said: Legend of the galactic heroes The story is amazing and as epic as it can be, the characters are great and are given time to grow, the dialogues are the best part and second to none, the animation might not be the greatest but it sure is on point. The music, well the man who though classics would be best suited for the story and went with it is a genius. Honestly the only reason it isn't in my favourite is because I haven't finished it yet and it can be a bit too heavy at times Legend of the Galactic Heroes isn't "objectively good" either. Plenty of people dislike it and find it over hyped. It's essentially a soap opera in space. |
| ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
| Legend of the Galactic Heroes. It's on my favorites, but it's a testament to it being the paragon of anime that it is. There really isn't anything else that comes close to the grand immensity of scale and scope this anime operates on, every decision from every character is seen effectively changing the multitude of layers the story operates on. There isn't a better story that has been told in anime. EndlessMaria said: To note, something being objective doesn't require everyone to believe it.JoyBoy_316 said: Legend of the galactic heroes The story is amazing and as epic as it can be, the characters are great and are given time to grow, the dialogues are the best part and second to none, the animation might not be the greatest but it sure is on point. The music, well the man who though classics would be best suited for the story and went with it is a genius. Honestly the only reason it isn't in my favourite is because I haven't finished it yet and it can be a bit too heavy at times Legend of the Galactic Heroes isn't "objectively good" either. Plenty of people dislike it and find it over hyped. It's essentially a soap opera in space. |
 I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
| I think FMA Brotherhood is just that good. Fate/Zero, the story and the animation along with the music, great stuff. Monster. Don't need to say anything about this one |
| The world is not beautiful. Therefore, it is. |
EndlessMaria said: JoyBoy_316 said: Legend of the galactic heroes The story is amazing and as epic as it can be, the characters are great and are given time to grow, the dialogues are the best part and second to none, the animation might not be the greatest but it sure is on point. The music, well the man who though classics would be best suited for the story and went with it is a genius. Honestly the only reason it isn't in my favourite is because I haven't finished it yet and it can be a bit too heavy at times Legend of the Galactic Heroes isn't "objectively good" either. Plenty of people dislike it and find it over hyped. It's essentially a soap opera in space. Wow so your argument is basically that you and your friends though it was the "biggest buzzword here on the internet"  |
Lunilah said: To note, something being objective doesn't require everyone to believe it. This is fiction though so it should apply right? It's not like for example the earth being objectively round even though there are a few crazies who believe otherwise. To my understanding, opinions on fiction can't be objective. |
| ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
JoyBoy_316 said: Wow so your argument is basically that you and your friends though it was the "biggest buzzword here on the internet" the fact that you post Saitama solidifies your shit taste. Next thread. |
| ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
EndlessMaria said: The earth being round for example is an observable fact, which is slightly different than objectively correct. Things that don't actually exist like mathematical concepts can be objectively true, so can plot holes, or the techniques used in animation or writing. The list really doesn't end, and there is obviously overlap with observable fact and the examples i used.Lunilah said: To note, something being objective doesn't require everyone to believe it. This is fiction though so it should apply right? It's not like for example the earth being objectively round even though there are a few crazies who believe otherwise. To my understanding, opinions on fiction can't be objective. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
EndlessMaria said: JoyBoy_316 said: Wow so your argument is basically that you and your friends though it was the "biggest buzzword here on the internet" the fact that you post Saitama solidifies your shit taste. Next thread.  I haven't watched OPM by the way but again OK |
| i am disappoint Why haven't you tried it? |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
Sorry for no real reason but now I definitely will |
| There are objectives points to have in mind that you can't deny, the problem is that the average weeabo don't know shit about anything and thinks that watching 150 animes is a lot. I understand when something has is objectively good, that doesn't mean that I like it. Animation being one of the most obvious things. PS: Revolutionary girl uthena is great, but for me is just good. |
DaCraziGuyAug 18, 2019 6:13 PM
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| I'll just throw Shirobalo here to the mix. Win many award and legitimately have the best payoff to a journey I've ever seen. |
 Kickstarter for Rokujouma is fully funded. Good work everyone. Lets wait for the result of our hard work together. |
EndlessMaria said: Cowboy Bebop can't be "objectively good" because imo it sucks. Everything is subjective. Yeah, I realize the title is a stretch because of that, which is why I tried to account for it in the main body of my post. I agree that everything is subjective - I'm usually the first to proclaim that stance and I believe it, even outside of art/entertainment, but in this case I'm just thinking about what you acknowledge is made of high quality and production values while something about it detracts from your personal enjoyment and removes the possibility of it being considered a favorite. I might loathe bean soup, but acknowledge the bean soup served at a particular restaurant uses the finest sourced ingredients and top notch seasoning blend and presentation, even if the taste of it isn't for me. Curious to know why you think it sucks though, if you feel like expanding on that. |
| So basically when u say "objectively", u mean "unbiased"? Anyway, I couldn't give less of a fuck about any criteria to judge anime that is not my own, so I can't really answer to this |
vhagar8 said: Another note, objectivity can be bias. For example a racist law. (I don't know what OP intended)So basically when u say "objectively", u mean "unbiased"? Anyway, I couldn't give less of a fuck about any criteria to judge anime that is not my own, so I can't really answer to this |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
WatchTillTandava said: Curious to know why you think it sucks though, if you feel like expanding on that. This has always been a difficult one for me to describe to others since it comes down to personal preference. I didn't find the episodic format to be engaging enough for me to continue watching. Too many slice of life elements. I found most of the plots to be dull and I didn't care for any of the characters. It's just a lot of "not caring about anything going on in the show" that made me drop it. |
| ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
vhagar8 said: So basically when u say "objectively", u mean "unbiased"? Anyway, I couldn't give less of a fuck about any criteria to judge anime that is not my own, so I can't really answer to this I mean in accordance with the consensus opinion across the anime industry as far as a consensus among professional critics and to some extent polling/popularity and legacy over the years for shows that we're some years removed from. Obviously shows like Cowboy Bebop, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Legends of the Galactic Heroes, Fullmetal Alchemist, and movies like Akira and Ghibli films are held on a high pedestal by a majority for a reason. If you disagree with that reason or actually agree with it but find other aspects of it which lessens your personal enjoyment of it regardless of its otherwise high quality, it'd be nice to hear that explained. Such as to me, I like Cowboy Bebop and am glad to have been watching it. I could even see myself rewatching certain episodes from it in the future myself or with someone else. The blues and jazz music is so well integrated. The animation is among the most fluid I've ever seen and seems better looking and done to a higher standard than most everything coming out now, over 20 years later. How every episode is just so artfully done seems like the top tier of anything animated. Yet story-wise I think the episodic structure imposes an artificial limitation on the heights it can reach and does reach and exceeds visually and sound-wise. It made me also think of other series and movies which made me came away thinking "Wow, that was so well done on every level and impressive, but the story didn't grab me as much." Where to draw the line of separation of this with what you think is overrated is also murky, because in the overrated case you have serious problems with something that doesn't seem to hurt its popularity or how it's regarded critically (I feel this way about something like Eva or Shinkai's filmography), but in this case you're able to acknowledge your personal gripe is a lot more preference-based as opposed to something like weak writing or choppy sloppy animation. |
WatchTillTandavaAug 18, 2019 6:25 PM
Lunilah said: vhagar8 said: Another note, objectivity can be bias. For example a racist law. (I don't know what OP intended)So basically when u say "objectively", u mean "unbiased"? Anyway, I couldn't give less of a fuck about any criteria to judge anime that is not my own, so I can't really answer to this I'm not sure I understand what ur saying here. Are u saying laws are objective? That sounds dumb af but it's the only interpratation I get from this brief comment. If I'm misinterpreting u feel free to correct me cuz I'm genuinely confused at this message. |
vhagar8 said: Yes. A law isn't influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions since it doesn't have any or a mind. It can operate on those from another, but that doesn't make it subjective, it makes it bias. A law in a vacuum is that, in practice it's interpretation is subjective because we're the ones interpreting it.Lunilah said: Another note, objectivity can be bias. For example a racist law. (I don't know what OP intended) I'm not sure I understand what ur saying here. Are u saying laws are objective? That sounds dumb af but it's the only interpratation I get from this brief comment. If I'm misinterpreting u feel free to correct me cuz I'm genuinely confused at this message. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
| Idk.. I just don’t feel like there’s a lot that separates “artistic merit” from taste when it comes to entertainment. |
| Neppin’ ain’t easy, yo |
WatchTillTandava said: vhagar8 said: So basically when u say "objectively", u mean "unbiased"? Anyway, I couldn't give less of a fuck about any criteria to judge anime that is not my own, so I can't really answer to this I mean in accordance with the consensus opinion across the anime industry as far as a consensus among professional critics and to some extent polling/popularity and legacy over the years for shows that we're some years removed from. Obviously shows like Cowboy Bebop, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Legends of the Galactic Heroes, Fullmetal Alchemist, and movies like Akira and Ghibli films are held on a high pedestal by a majority for a reason. If you disagree with that reason or actually agree with it but find other aspects of it which lessens your personal enjoyment of it regardless of its otherwise high quality, it'd be nice to hear that explained. I get that, the thing is "the consensus opinion across the anime industry" isn't objective by any means, ur acknowledging that yourself...Than, what is the word "objectively" doing in the title? Why are u misusing a word on purpose? I understand "the consensus opinion across the anime industry" it's pretty fucking long to write, but "objectively" is a terrible abbreviation for that. "If you disagree with that reason or actually agree with it but find other aspects of it which lessens your personal enjoyment of it regardless of its otherwise high quality, it'd be nice to hear that explained." Not sure what ur saying here, high quality for me is something I like, as simple as that, I don't see why I should care about other people concept of quality. I mean it's interesting to have a conversation with someone with different opinions than yours from time to time, but we're not talking about actual people here, just an abstract concept of quality |
Lunilah said: vhagar8 said: Yes. A law isn't influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions since it doesn't have any or a mind. It can operate on those from another, but that doesn't make it subjective, it makes it bias. A law in a vacuum is that, in practice it's interpretation is subjective because we're the ones interpreting it.I'm not sure I understand what ur saying here. Are u saying laws are objective? That sounds dumb af but it's the only interpratation I get from this brief comment. If I'm misinterpreting u feel free to correct me cuz I'm genuinely confused at this message. Laws are literally what the people who rule a state consider just, there's absolutely nothing objective about laws, they are just the opinion of the ruling class on paper |
vhagar8 said: I get that, the thing is "the consensus opinion across the anime industry" isn't objective by any means, ur acknowledging that yourself...Than, what is the word "objectively" doing in the title? Why are u misusing a word on purpose? I understand "the consensus opinion across the anime industry" it's pretty fucking long to write, but "objectively" is a terrible abbreviation for that. "If you disagree with that reason or actually agree with it but find other aspects of it which lessens your personal enjoyment of it regardless of its otherwise high quality, it'd be nice to hear that explained." Not sure what ur saying here, high quality for me is something I like, as simple as that, I don't see why I should care about other people concept of quality. I mean it's interesting to have a conversation with someone with different opinions than yours from time to time, but we're not talking about actual people here, just an abstract concept of quality Are there not criteria which we can use to judge anything that is more objective than others? I mean, almost everyone will acknowledge when the animation of something painstakingly hand-drawn with cel animation and looks fluid and polished even 20 years later is an impressive feat. That doesn't mean it has to be to your personal taste/liking or can't be overshadowed by other aspects of the show you find negative, but surely this has to be something more able to be considered objectively than other facets of a work. |
vhagar8 said: Correct, they are the opinion of people on paper. However they have no agency to be subjective, and they're completely impersonal and detached from everything human, except that they can be prejudice. I understand this can be pretty confusing.Lunilah said: Yes. A law isn't influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions since it doesn't have any or a mind. It can operate on those from another, but that doesn't make it subjective, it makes it bias. A law in a vacuum is that, in practice it's interpretation is subjective because we're the ones interpreting it. Laws are literally what the people who rule a state consider just, there's absolutely nothing objective about laws, they are just the opinion of the ruling class on paper Edit: WatchTillTandava said: This is true, however objective and consensus are not the same thing. Other than it's objectively true the consensus is XYZ.vhagar8 said: I get that, the thing is "the consensus opinion across the anime industry" isn't objective by any means, ur acknowledging that yourself...Than, what is the word "objectively" doing in the title? Why are u misusing a word on purpose? I understand "the consensus opinion across the anime industry" it's pretty fucking long to write, but "objectively" is a terrible abbreviation for that. "If you disagree with that reason or actually agree with it but find other aspects of it which lessens your personal enjoyment of it regardless of its otherwise high quality, it'd be nice to hear that explained." Not sure what ur saying here, high quality for me is something I like, as simple as that, I don't see why I should care about other people concept of quality. I mean it's interesting to have a conversation with someone with different opinions than yours from time to time, but we're not talking about actual people here, just an abstract concept of quality Are there not criteria which we can use to judge anything that is more objective than others? I mean, almost everyone will acknowledge when the animation of something painstakingly hand-drawn with cel animation and looks fluid and polished even 20 years later is an impressive feat. That doesn't mean it has to be to your personal taste/liking or can't be overshadowed by other aspects of the show you find negative, but surely this has to be something more able to be considered objectively than other facets of a work. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
WatchTillTandava said: vhagar8 said: I get that, the thing is "the consensus opinion across the anime industry" isn't objective by any means, ur acknowledging that yourself...Than, what is the word "objectively" doing in the title? Why are u misusing a word on purpose? I understand "the consensus opinion across the anime industry" it's pretty fucking long to write, but "objectively" is a terrible abbreviation for that. "If you disagree with that reason or actually agree with it but find other aspects of it which lessens your personal enjoyment of it regardless of its otherwise high quality, it'd be nice to hear that explained." Not sure what ur saying here, high quality for me is something I like, as simple as that, I don't see why I should care about other people concept of quality. I mean it's interesting to have a conversation with someone with different opinions than yours from time to time, but we're not talking about actual people here, just an abstract concept of quality Are there not criteria which we can use to judge anything that is more objective than others? I mean, almost everyone will acknowledge when the animation of something painstakingly hand-drawn with cel animation and looks fluid and polished even 20 years later is an impressive feat. That doesn't mean it has to be to your personal taste/liking or can't be overshadowed by other aspects of the show you find negative, but surely this has to be something more able to be considered objectively than other facets of a work. Not really. "More objective than others" doesn't even make sense. It doesn't exist such thing as a scale of objectivity, something is either objective or subjective. There's no mid ground. The general consensus is just the opinion of the majority and there's nothing objective about opinions. And btw cel animation is an eyesore to me. |
Lunilah said: This is true, however objective and consensus are not the same thing. Other than it's objectively true the consensus is XYZ. Man, you guys are tough! And I thought I was literal and pedantic to the extreme. It's not a bad thing though, as it makes for a rigorous conversation that perhaps people should be having around this and similar topics more often. Look, my intention was not to enter into an entire political or philosophical debate, but I don't actually consider anything truly "objective" in the purest sense of the term outside of mathematical and scientific facts, like equations and the breakdown of chemical compositions. Outside of that, all decisions and lifestyles, law, morality, and yes, culture, extending to art, is all subjective; subject to change and subject to every opinion and interpretation. I just believe there are more objective metrics than others when it comes to judging artwork. It doesn't mean they're flawlessly objective and free from bias and the preferences and whims of majority opinion since, as acknowledged, almost nothing is, but objective as far as the medium allows. I will say if I think something is well-animated or it being rushed or having a lower budget or both led to it putting out poorer quality animation. I don't think that's exactly in the same realm as whether you like the story or are a fan or not of jazz or rap or string instruments. |
WatchTillTandava said: Time to be truly pedantic for shits.Man, you guys are tough! And I thought I was literal and pedantic to the extreme. It's not a bad thing though, as it makes for a rigorous conversation that perhaps people should be having around this and similar topics more often. Look, my intention was not to enter into an entire political or philosophical debate, but I don't actually consider anything truly "objective" in the purest sense of the term outside of mathematical and scientific facts, like equations and the breakdown of chemical compositions. Fun fact, science doesn't deal in absolute truths, observable fact is as true as truth gets, but science exists to best explain things. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
Lunilah said: vhagar8 said: Correct, they are the opinion of people on paper. However they have no agency to be subjective, and they're completely impersonal and detached from everything human, except that they can be prejudice. I understand this can be pretty confusing.Laws are literally what the people who rule a state consider just, there's absolutely nothing objective about laws, they are just the opinion of the ruling class on paper Opinions can't be objective, opinions are subjective by definition. "An objective opinion" is a wrong way to spell "fact". Fact are actually objective And no, humans can't alienate everything they are and have an "impersonal" opinion, u can be less biased, but u'll never be impersonal. |
vhagar8 said: I'm not saying opinions are objective. Abstract things we create however, can be.Lunilah said: Correct, they are the opinion of people on paper. However they have no agency to be subjective, and they're completely impersonal and detached from everything human, except that they can be prejudice. I understand this can be pretty confusing. Opinions can't be objective, opinions are subjective by definition. "An objective opinion" is a wrong way to spell "fact". Fact are actually objective And no, humans can't alienate everything they are and have an "impersonal" opinion, u can be less biased, but u'll never be impersonal. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
| i think popularity is one of the best measures of something being the best. even if the argument "popular =/= good" does make sense, no one can deny that if a large number of people enjoy an anime, it's successful compared to its peers. so if we use this website's ratings as data, i'd like to posit that among anime fans, Fullmetal Alchemist" Brotherhood is the best anime. it has the most member favorites, so that would indicate the highest number of people who watched it and loved it. although apparently Steins;Gate has the highest favorites per viewer ratio, so i wouldn't be opposed to calling that the best either. point being, my objective definition of best is most successful |
Lunilah said: vhagar8 said: I'm not saying opinions are objective. Abstract things we create however, can be.Opinions can't be objective, opinions are subjective by definition. "An objective opinion" is a wrong way to spell "fact". Fact are actually objective And no, humans can't alienate everything they are and have an "impersonal" opinion, u can be less biased, but u'll never be impersonal. Sure, as long as they're not based on opinions, abstral things we create (like sciences) can be objective. Laws are based on opinions tho. |
| Hmm, that'd have to be FMA:B for me. I'm not really much of a battle shounen fan, but from a purely dynamic standpoint, it consistently hits all the right notes. The characters are well-developed, the world is fleshed out, the magic is explained and makes sense contextually, each episode has a purpose, and no arc is unnecessarily prolonged. Well-choreographed fight scenes, the sound design is carefully handled as the tracks never feel invasive or off-putting. Yeah, it just has a lot of things going for it, and it definitely warrants the tremendous praise it's received. It may not be a favorite of mine, but it's a damn incredible show. |
 "I am not sure that I exist, actually. I am all the writers that I have read, all the people that I have met, all the women that I have loved; all the cities I have visited." ― Jorge Luis Borges [url=]Goodreads[/url] | [url=]Letterboxd[/url] |
vhagar8 said: Everything you mentioned is based on opinion. But that's beside the point. I don't yet know of a better way to explain my point than my previous posts, it requires a rigorous understanding of the words used. If you want to go back and examine them, particularly #30 & #25, feel free. Otherwise i think this is another dead end for us.Lunilah said: I'm not saying opinions are objective. Abstract things we create however, can be. Sure, as long as they're not based on opinions, abstral things we create (like sciences) can be objective. Laws are based on opinions tho. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
| This is by far one of the silliest threads i seen all week. I have on high standards any anime that try to deviate from the same overused garbage that studios pump out like popcorn every year while making a coherent interesting story at the same time. Therefore it is impossible to answer you because: 1) Any anime i could put here wouldnt count since its one of my favourites (for obvious reasons!). 2) The only way i could put an anime here would be if i havent watched it. But if i hadnt watched it how the frick i could say its the best anime? 3) An anime i gave a high score despite the fact that i despised it or disliked it. But hey check this out. I didnt gave a high score to any of the anime i disliked or despised... crazy right? Also FMA was the most boring generic uninspired shit i seen and one of the few animes i dropped because of how boring it was. |
CordobezEverdeenAug 18, 2019 7:07 PM
| I never lie on the internet. What's the point of it... the chinese noodles ad is an anime and avatar isn't! triggered Check out my taste and my profile. |
Lunilah said: vhagar8 said: Everything you mentioned is based on opinion. But that's beside the point. I don't yet know of a better way to explain my point than my previous posts, it requires a rigorous understanding of the words used. If you want to go back and examine them, particularly #30 & #25, feel free. Otherwise i think this is another dead end for us.Sure, as long as they're not based on opinions, abstral things we create (like sciences) can be objective. Laws are based on opinions tho. Yeah sorry, my last comment was terrible and didn't make any sense, I got a little cofused lol Let me correct this, if u still think that's a dead end , let's end this here; Basically, sciences aren't objective either, saying that sciences are objective is, a terrbile semplification, I guess? Nothing about humans is objective, which means the only way for us to use objectivity is by creating systems with strict rules, the problem is, the foundation of those systems lays on our subjectivity, so those system are objective only as long as other people acknowledge the subjectivity they're based on. That might sound a little complicated, so let me use a couple of examples: 1) Math: a simple example to show how math isn't actually objective would be by negating one of its premises; u swap the order of 2 and 5, and u've got yourself a system according to which, the result of 5 + 3 is objectively 2. Does anyone do this? No, because it's pointless af. Yes, there might be some hippies out there who're trying to "negate" math, but the way they're trying to do it isn't by negating its premises. which makes the math system universally accepted. Why did I say that math being objective is a semplification then? Because considering the current math system is universally accepted, saying that math is objective "according to its system" would only be redundant and pointless, so u can cut the last part out since it's already implied. 2) Anime: similar to what I said before, u create your system of values, I don't know, "plot holes are bad writing for example", and then u can objectively judge according to that system. Now, when it comes to anime (or morals, but that's kind of off-topic at this point), is there a universally accepted system to judge anime? Hell no. What is considered the general consensus, among criticts at least, might not even be what's the general consensus among the rest of the population, actually, now that I think of it, it's likely it isn't. And even critics themselves don't have a system so rigid it could be considered universally accepted among themselves And anyway, being a critic or not, means shit when it comes to objectivity U see how vague that is? At the end, is there a system of values to judge anime (or entertainment in general) that's universal and u can so shorten as objective without being completely wrong? No, nothing is even closed to that. Just stick to "critically acclaimed" if what u mean is general consensus among critics. The word objective in this context just doesn't work as a substitute |
vhagar8Aug 18, 2019 8:07 PM
| Code Geass, great characters and story. TTGL is also another good one. |
Papa_ScorchAug 18, 2019 8:19 PM
| There are a few that come to mind... Death Note - I understand why a lot of people consider it great, but I just didn’t get much enjoyment out of it. I thought the first half was alright, but after , I just wasn’t as good. Neon Genesis Evangelion - I’ll admit that there are a lot of technically great things about NGE...but I REALLY didn’t like the characters. I struggled to find one character I liked in this series. They were so unlikable that I was half-rooting for the angels to wipe out humanity. Gintama - So perhaps someone can give me some insight into this, but I watched about 30 episodes of this series and dropped it like a rock. Does this series develop any sort of worthwhile narrative? I mean, it is funny, but I enjoy story in anime more than anything else and all this series seems to do is one-off shorts with a bunch of referential and situational humor. The humor itself to me is hit-or-miss. There were some episodes that had me rolling and some episodes where I struggled to even muscle out a chuckle. I do understand it’s popularity from a comedic standpoint, but I’m struggling to grasp how it’s so widely revered. I’ve seen FAR better comedy anime that for some reason, are rated way lower. FMA: Brotherhood - I’ll admit that I like this series way more than the top three, but it’s hardly considered my favorite. It was a very good series all-around, but I’m struggling with the idea that it is the greatest, if not, one of the greatest anime ever made. I’ve seen A LOT of series that I think are better IMO, but I do get why some people might love it more than I did. |
| no such thing as "best anime objectively" in this media. Any answers will just turn out to be opinions, and most of them are gonna be people stating that "this top show must be good because it's at the top but I personally didn't really like it enough to call it a favorite." and, objectively speaking, a show would be in your favorites if it was objectively the best because it would be the best. You wouldn't be able to judge a show's quality if you haven't watched it, so that crosses out all those people who believe the top shows are the best (even if they haven't watched the show themselves) because them thinking that would be subjective thinking. Your question isn't refined and it can't really be fixed either because of the type of question you are asking. |
vhagar8 said: The only real problem with this post that i can see, i think you're operating under the assumption that i hold the position of critics or critique is purely objective. It's not, just that it has objective components. You can definitely stick to only the objective merits of anime but your analysis would be incomplete and missing what anime is about, and in an analysis only sticking to the subjective merits would also be incomplete.Lunilah said: Everything you mentioned is based on opinion. But that's beside the point. I don't yet know of a better way to explain my point than my previous posts, it requires a rigorous understanding of the words used. If you want to go back and examine them, particularly #30 & #25, feel free. Otherwise i think this is another dead end for us. Yeah sorry, my last comment was terrible and didn't make any sense, I got a little cofused lol Let me correct this, if u still think that's a dead end , let's end this here; Basically, sciences aren't objective either, saying that sciences are objective is, a terrbile semplification, I guess? Nothing about humans is objective, which means the only way for us to use objectivity is by creating systems with strict rules, the problem is, the foundation of those systems lays on our subjectivity, so those system are objective only as long as other people acknowledge the subjectivity they're based on. That might sound a little complicated, so let me use a couple of examples: 1) Math: a simple example to show how math isn't actually objective would be by negating one of its premises; u swap the order of 2 and 5, and u've got yourself a system according to which, the result of 5 + 3 is objectively 2. Does anyone do this? No, because it's pointless af. Yes, there might be some hippies out there who're trying to "negate" math, but the way they're trying to do it isn't by negating its premises. which makes the math system universally accepted. Why did I say that math being objective is a semplification then? Because considering the current math system is universally accepted, saying that math is objective "according to its system" would only be redundant and pointless, so u can cut the last part out since it's already implied. 2) Anime: similar to what I said before, u create your system of values, I don't know, "plot holes are bad writing for example", and then u can objectively judge according to that system. Now, when it comes to anime (or morals, but that's kind of off-topic at this point), is there a universally accepted system to judge anime? Hell no. What is considered the general consensus, among criticts at least, might not even be what's the general consensus among the rest of the population, actually, now that I think of it, it's likely it isn't. And even critics themselves don't have a system so rigid it could be considered universally accepted among themselves And anyway, being a critic or not, means shit when it comes to objectivity U see how vague that is? At the end, is there a system of values to judge anime (or entertainment in general) that's universal and u can so shorten as objective without being completely wrong? No, nothing is even closed to that. Just stick to "critically acclaimed" if what u mean is general consensus among critics. The word objective in this context just doesn't work as a substitute I used that example of math in the other thread because it's true, what we disagree on is whether or not a tool/measure by itself in a vacuum is objective. But we differ on what it means to be objective or subjective, where i use more hyper-specific definitions of the 2, you use more broad definitions. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
CordobezEverdeen said: This is by far one of the silliest threads i seen all week. I try. CordobezEverdeen said: 3) An anime i gave a high score despite the fact that i despised it or disliked it. But hey check this out. I didnt gave a high score to any of the anime i disliked or despised... crazy right? Where in the OP did you read anything about disliking or despising the hypothetical anime in question? Not considering something a candidate for being a personal favorite due to various reasons is certainly not synonymous with disliking or despising it at all. The shows I cited as examples are all ones I liked overall and gave 8s to. I wouldn't give a favorable rating to any show I disliked or despised. Loonitick said: and, objectively speaking, a show would be in your favorites if it was objectively the best because it would be the best. You wouldn't be able to judge a show's quality if you haven't watched it Haven't watched it? I meant out of the ones people have seen obviously. I thought that was implied since you can't really have an informed opinion on the viewing experience of watching any show if you haven't seen it. I also don't really get all the people saying, as you are, that "a show would be in your favorites if were objectively the best". I don't think that holds true at all. I can acknowledge The Godfather or Citizen Kane are better made films than some B movie schlock and still prefer the latter. |
WatchTillTandavaAug 18, 2019 9:07 PM
| If I had to name the objectively best anime ever made, I'd list Nausicaa, Totoro, Evangelion, Utena, Now and Then, Here and There, Princess Tutu, Haruhi, FMAB, Madoka, Shinsekai Yori, and possibly Rakugo and 3-gatsu no Lion though I'd want to wait a bit and see how they age before confirming those last two. I'd consider many of the things on that list amongst my personal favourites, but not all of them. Totoro isn't one of my personal favourites because it's so squarely aimed at children and I'm not a child, FMAB is a bit too close to battle shounen for my adoration and I don't share its sense of humour, and Rakugo is about types of characters I normally wouldn't be interested in and doesn't have any rebellious spirit. Plus I'm not sure what it means to 'favourite' Now and Then, Here and There due to its complete absence of entertainment aspects. |
| If I don't enjoy an anime I tend to drop it, so impossible for me to say, but I'm sure there are many out there. |
| Spirited Away comes to mind. And while I do love it, I wouldn't consider it my favorite. AoT is another one, though I suppose it's a bit early to call it the best since the story hasn't concluded yet. All I'm saying is if it keeps going like it has, it'll be up there with the best of the best. |
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