| There's a lot of "hidden Ecchi." For example, in Golden Time, when they are at a party, one girl's head ends up between another girl's legs after somersaulting, and the other girl moans. |
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| No, not really. It reeks of desperate pandering--a weak distraction to misdirect the viewer from noticing that the material isn't good enough to stand on its own. Sexuality and ecchi should serve an actual narrative purpose (e.g. Kill la Kill, Prison School, Shimoneta, etc.) and not just exist to try to distract from a terrible script. |
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| Brushing teeth. You all know the scene. No thank you. |
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| Its one of my favorite things about anime, all the absurd methods characters use to get the female characters naked and rubbing up on our passive MCs. |
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| If it's properly animated, then it should be good. There are anime for bedtime but failed to do better than ecchi anime. On topic, female voice actors are generally good at making lewd voices so they are actually performing their job. |
| Not really, it just looks silly and unnecessary. |
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| I don't see a distinction between innocence and sexuality. That attitude is a relic from old religious values which equated sex with sin. Sex is a beautiful, fundamental part of the human condition and there should be more of it in all art. Maybe once we fully put religion behind us as a species we can learn to see sex as something noble, something that (when people are free to choose) brings nothing but pleasure to mankind - something that brings two people together like no other act, rather than demonizing it because the powers that be wanted to control human reproduction. |
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YossaRedMage said: I don't see a distinction between innocence and sexuality. That attitude is a relic from old religious values which equated sex with sin. Sex is a beautiful, fundamental part of the human condition and there should be more of it in all art. Maybe once we fully put religion behind us as a species we can learn to see sex as something noble, something that (when people are free to choose) brings nothing but pleasure to mankind - something that brings two people together like no other act, rather than demonizing it because the powers that be wanted to control human reproduction. I don't mean any of that nonsense. I mean something that's not sexual leading to something sexual. |
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YossaRedMage said: I don't see a distinction between innocence and sexuality. That attitude is a relic from old religious values which equated sex with sin. Sex is a beautiful, fundamental part of the human condition and there should be more of it in all art. Maybe once we fully put religion behind us as a species we can learn to see sex as something noble, something that (when people are free to choose) brings nothing but pleasure to mankind - something that brings two people together like no other act, rather than demonizing it because the powers that be wanted to control human reproduction. I can see what you mean here. One of the things I really like about ecchi anime is how innocence and sexuality isn't considered a contradiction. The sexiest female characters or the most lustful ones often are very innocent and moe. I don't think religion really has much to do with it anymore though. Religion in the past may have made sex seem like an evil thing but the amount of influence religion has in life at this point is virtually none. Hell a few days ago I actually hooked up with a Catholic girl. I'm still not sure if this is gonna lead anywhere but I'm hopeful. Anyway not to get too off-topic, a lot of the moderately religious girls still want sex and actually have a fairly positive view towards sex in relationships. I've heard some religious people stress the importance of sex in relationships and say that a relationship without sex is doomed to fail. Some extremists exist and they do have serious hangups, but I've found that the moderately religious crowd isn't nearly as sex negative as people have made them out to be. Its really the SJW crowd's misandry that is causing problems in today's day and age. The SJW crowd hates anything that seems to benefit men or anything they think men will like so sexy, innocent girls are at the top of the list of things they don't like. |
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Zelkiiro said: No, not really. It reeks of desperate pandering--a weak distraction to misdirect the viewer from noticing that the material isn't good enough to stand on its own. Sexuality and ecchi should serve an actual narrative purpose (e.g. Kill la Kill, Prison School, Shimoneta, etc.) and not just exist to try to distract from a terrible script. Excellent response. This is exactly how I feel about sexualization in all forms of media. If it serves a distinct purpose that's important to the plot, then by all means, that's perfectly fine in my eyes. Otherwise, it just seems entirely unnecessary. But then again, some people place much higher value on the entertainment value of those elements, so who am I to judge? Lol, to each their own, I suppose. |
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IpreferEcchi said: YossaRedMage said: I don't see a distinction between innocence and sexuality. That attitude is a relic from old religious values which equated sex with sin. Sex is a beautiful, fundamental part of the human condition and there should be more of it in all art. Maybe once we fully put religion behind us as a species we can learn to see sex as something noble, something that (when people are free to choose) brings nothing but pleasure to mankind - something that brings two people together like no other act, rather than demonizing it because the powers that be wanted to control human reproduction. I don't mean any of that nonsense. I mean something that's not sexual leading to something sexual. I think you'd like this anime a lot... https://myanimelist.net/anime/8675/Seitokai_Yakuindomo |
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Ryuk9428 said: I think you'd like this anime a lot... https://myanimelist.net/anime/8675/Seitokai_Yakuindomo It's one that I plan to watch some time. On the subject of appropriate and inappropriate, though, I think we should be allowed to directly show NSFW content anywhere on MAL if it's from a series in the database. (Anime or manga.) And use it in avatars, signatures, etc. Only NSFW fan art should have to be cropped or indirectly posted. I don't agree with age restrictions if it's animated pornography. |
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| The internet can turn everything sexual and you don't see me praising it. |
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RaginCajun said: This.Not really, it just looks silly and unnecessary. There's a time and place for everything, including sexual activity/jokes/etc.. That time and place is not "all the time, everywhere". YossaRedMage said: I think by "innocence" OP just means something that isn't sexual...?I don't see a distinction between innocence and sexuality. That attitude is a relic from old religious values which equated sex with sin. Sex is a beautiful, fundamental part of the human condition and there should be more of it in all art. Anyhow I don't see sex as sin, but there's just many more interesting things in life aside from just sexuality. And art shouldn't just be about sexuality. For what it's worth, there's value in exploring romance and sexuality separately, too. (Not to mention that sexuality in anime can tend to be portrayed in repetitive ways...) jal90 said: *zing*The internet can turn everything sexual and you don't see me praising it. Sexuality is a vital and very meaningful part of humanity, but too often, the internet turns sexuality into basically just cheap joke fodder, and a similar problem is present in anime. |
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Zelkiiro said: No, not really. It reeks of desperate pandering--a weak distraction to misdirect the viewer from noticing that the material isn't good enough to stand on its own. Sexuality and ecchi should serve an actual narrative purpose (e.g. Kill la Kill, Prison School, Shimoneta, etc.) and not just exist to try to distract from a terrible script. That's assuming ecchi isn't the "material" itself. As if all the fanservice in Miru Tights is just a "distraction" of the show, rather than the whole point of it. Eroticism is something that can be of value in itself. It all depends how it is done. |
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| Yes, I like it and the hidden ecchi is fine too, there's some episodes in tamayura (cute girls slice of life) when Norie (girl) makes advanses to a 10 year old boy and damn, there's a lot of hidden meaning there, she needs a bf. |
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GlennMagusHarvey said: YossaRedMage said: I don't see a distinction between innocence and sexuality. That attitude is a relic from old religious values which equated sex with sin. Sex is a beautiful, fundamental part of the human condition and there should be more of it in all art. I think by "innocence" OP just means something that isn't sexual...? That's not what innocence means though. And if the question is "do love how anime can turn something not sexual in to something sexual", well... that has no meaning. The only things can be turned sexual are things which aren't sexual to begin with. I guess, if his point was about how often anime turns situations sexual in general then there's something meangingful there, but the use of the "innocent" is kind of redundent and gives the wrong impression at that point. The definition of innocent (from Google): Adjective: 1. not guilty of a crime or offence. 2. not responsible for or directly involved in an event yet suffering its consequences Or the word innocence: Noun: the state, quality or fact of being innocent of a crime or offence -lack of guile or corruption; purity -a persons virginity The bolded part above is the most relevent here. Particularly the word "corruption". Regardless of specific definitions or what the OP meant, there is a negative connotation when making the distiction between "innocence" and "sex" and that is what I am trying to combat. GlennMagusHarvey said: Anyhow I don't see sex as sin, but there's just many more interesting things in life aside from just sexuality. And art shouldn't just be about sexuality. For what it's worth, there's value in exploring romance and sexuality separately, too. (Not to mention that sexuality in anime can tend to be portrayed in repetitive ways...) I don't disagree with any of this [EDIT: Actually, in the end, it looks like I only agreed with the part about how art shouldn't just be about sexuality, but I didn't claim it should...]. Well, I don't know about many more interesting things. But I guess it's down to personal preference. Still, because of stuck-up attitudes, many people tend to greatly downplay how interested in sex they are. Then, when night comes along they go full rabid animal mode, but then they feel like that is shameful thing that needs to be swept under the rug. Again, this is down to old religious values that came about for a number of reasons, some good, some bad, but all outdated and harmful to the mental health of the modern humanity. Acutally I disagree with the value of in exploring romance without sex. They are intricately linked. Romance without sexuality is just lesser. I can't see how any value is added by ignoring such a fundamentally important part of romance. It's a huge part of why romance is seperate form friendship. That instinctual urge to be physically intimate is inseperable from real romance. Please, if you can give me a way in which romance represented without sexuality can actually have more value then I'd be interested to hear it, but I highly doubt you can make a good case for that. GlennMagusHarvey said: Sexuality is a vital and very meaningful part of humanity, but too often, the internet turns sexuality into basically just cheap joke fodder, and a similar problem is present in anime. 100%. But I think that's kind of like shining a light on a house's toilet rather than paying attention to how nice their living room is. And, running with this analogy, anime has put a lot more effort and emphasis in to it's living room than most other houses. ... That might have been a bit obtuse. Living room = sexual themes in general, toilet = poorly utilized sexual themes (the cheap joke fodder you mention), and house = type of media (where Hollywood movies would be another house). I like anime because it puts a lot of effort in to - and amphasis on - it's living room. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
Ryuk9428 said: YossaRedMage said: I don't see a distinction between innocence and sexuality. That attitude is a relic from old religious values which equated sex with sin. Sex is a beautiful, fundamental part of the human condition and there should be more of it in all art. Maybe once we fully put religion behind us as a species we can learn to see sex as something noble, something that (when people are free to choose) brings nothing but pleasure to mankind - something that brings two people together like no other act, rather than demonizing it because the powers that be wanted to control human reproduction. I can see what you mean here. One of the things I really like about ecchi anime is how innocence and sexuality isn't considered a contradiction. The sexiest female characters or the most lustful ones often are very innocent and moe. I don't think religion really has much to do with it anymore though. Religion in the past may have made sex seem like an evil thing but the amount of influence religion has in life at this point is virtually none. Hell a few days ago I actually hooked up with a Catholic girl. I'm still not sure if this is gonna lead anywhere but I'm hopeful. Anyway not to get too off-topic, a lot of the moderately religious girls still want sex and actually have a fairly positive view towards sex in relationships. I've heard some religious people stress the importance of sex in relationships and say that a relationship without sex is doomed to fail. Some extremists exist and they do have serious hangups, but I've found that the moderately religious crowd isn't nearly as sex negative as people have made them out to be. Its really the SJW crowd's misandry that is causing problems in today's day and age. The SJW crowd hates anything that seems to benefit men or anything they think men will like so sexy, innocent girls are at the top of the list of things they don't like. Maybe you're right and I'm too hard on religion. I also find most religious peoplle to be nice. Of course indivviduals are different from the collective, always the way. But I do think, while religion may have less of an influence on these attitudes nowadays, it is still the legacy of religion that is the source of those attitudes. But yeah, no offense to religious people, so much as religion itself. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
| you can replace anime in the title with anything so yes |
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YossaRedMage said: And if the question is "do love how anime can turn something not sexual in to something sexual", well... that has no meaning. The only things can be turned sexual are things which aren't sexual to begin with. I guess, if his point was about how often anime turns situations sexual in general then there's something meangingful there, but the use of the "innocent" is kind of redundent and gives the wrong impression at that point. Those mean THE SAME THING. Something not sexual (a situation) turned sexual. I used innocent correctly. It's context-dependent. English doesn't appear to be your first language. Innocence has the connotation of "not having anything to do with sex" in the U.S. and Great Britain. |
IpreferEcchiAug 13, 2019 8:12 AM
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YossaRedMage said: That does have meaning, in the sense of "guy chops wood" vs. "sweaty, muscular guy chops wood while shirtless as a girl looks on while fantasizing".And if the question is "do love how anime can turn something not sexual in to something sexual", well... that has no meaning. YossaRedMage said: You might be trying too hard to push that point...?Regardless of specific definitions or what the OP meant, there is a negative connotation when making the distiction between "innocence" and "sex" and that is what I am trying to combat. YossaRedMage said: Pardon me for phrasing this with the possibility of misinterpretation, but I meant "{many more} interesting things", not "many {more interesting}" things. Perhaps I should have written "many other interesting things".GlennMagusHarvey said: Well, I don't know about many more interesting things.but there's just many more interesting things in life aside from just sexuality. YossaRedMage said: It's not just because of stuck-up attitudes; there's also an irritating immaturity with which people do talk about sex.Still, because of stuck-up attitudes, many people tend to greatly downplay how interested in sex they are. YossaRedMage said: Affection, emotional support, (hopefully mutual) infatuation, and so on are elements of romance that are not inherently sexual. And moments of physical intimacy may not necessarily be sexual moments. There are instances where people feel a sexual attraction to someone but not a romantic one, or a romantic attraction to someone but not a sexual one. While the two are obviously linked, they are also distinct concepts.Acutally I disagree with the value of in exploring romance without sex. They are intricately linked. Romance without sexuality is just lesser. I can't see how any value is added by ignoring such a fundamentally important part of romance. It's a huge part of why romance is seperate form friendship. That instinctual urge to be physically intimate is inseperable from real romance. Please, if you can give me a way in which romance represented without sexuality can actually have more value then I'd be interested to hear it, but I highly doubt you can make a good case for that. YossaRedMage said: Ehh, fanservice of the "hey look at them big bouncy titties" sort is more like installing toilets in the living room, by that analogy.100%. But I think that's kind of like shining a light on a house's toilet rather than paying attention to how nice their living room is. And, running with this analogy, anime has put a lot more effort and emphasis in to it's living room than most other houses. ... That might have been a bit obtuse. Living room = sexual themes in general, toilet = poorly utilized sexual themes (the cheap joke fodder you mention), and house = type of media (where Hollywood movies would be another house). I like anime because it puts a lot of effort in to - and amphasis on - it's living room. |
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YossaRedMage said: Ryuk9428 said: I can see what you mean here. One of the things I really like about ecchi anime is how innocence and sexuality isn't considered a contradiction. The sexiest female characters or the most lustful ones often are very innocent and moe. I don't think religion really has much to do with it anymore though. Religion in the past may have made sex seem like an evil thing but the amount of influence religion has in life at this point is virtually none. Hell a few days ago I actually hooked up with a Catholic girl. I'm still not sure if this is gonna lead anywhere but I'm hopeful. Anyway not to get too off-topic, a lot of the moderately religious girls still want sex and actually have a fairly positive view towards sex in relationships. I've heard some religious people stress the importance of sex in relationships and say that a relationship without sex is doomed to fail. Some extremists exist and they do have serious hangups, but I've found that the moderately religious crowd isn't nearly as sex negative as people have made them out to be. Its really the SJW crowd's misandry that is causing problems in today's day and age. The SJW crowd hates anything that seems to benefit men or anything they think men will like so sexy, innocent girls are at the top of the list of things they don't like. Maybe you're right and I'm too hard on religion. I also find most religious peoplle to be nice. Of course indivviduals are different from the collective, always the way. But I do think, while religion may have less of an influence on these attitudes nowadays, it is still the legacy of religion that is the source of those attitudes. But yeah, no offense to religious people, so much as religion itself. No worries, I'm not religious myself and I don't get offended on behalf of other people. I'm just giving my own observations. Another good thing about religion is that they tend to support traditional notions of family and gender. Girls in religious households are encouraged to be sweet, feminine, and loving towards the men they're in relationships with. |
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GlennMagusHarvey said: YossaRedMage said: Affection, emotional support, (hopefully mutual) infatuation, and so on are elements of romance that are not inherently sexual. And moments of physical intimacy may not necessarily be sexual moments. There are instances where people feel a sexual attraction to someone but not a romantic one, or a romantic attraction to someone but not a sexual one. While the two are obviously linked, they are also distinct concepts.Acutally I disagree with the value of in exploring romance without sex. They are intricately linked. Romance without sexuality is just lesser. I can't see how any value is added by ignoring such a fundamentally important part of romance. It's a huge part of why romance is seperate form friendship. That instinctual urge to be physically intimate is inseperable from real romance. Please, if you can give me a way in which romance represented without sexuality can actually have more value then I'd be interested to hear it, but I highly doubt you can make a good case for that. YossaRedMage said: Ehh, fanservice of the "hey look at them big bouncy titties" sort is more like installing toilets in the living room, by that analogy.100%. But I think that's kind of like shining a light on a house's toilet rather than paying attention to how nice their living room is. And, running with this analogy, anime has put a lot more effort and emphasis in to it's living room than most other houses. ... That might have been a bit obtuse. Living room = sexual themes in general, toilet = poorly utilized sexual themes (the cheap joke fodder you mention), and house = type of media (where Hollywood movies would be another house). I like anime because it puts a lot of effort in to - and amphasis on - it's living room. I think the point @YossaRedMage is trying to make here is that intentionally erotic content is not necessarily vulgar. In a lot of other media, highly sexual works are what we typically call "raunchy" in that the sexual content is usually done in a very crude and vulgar manner for the purpose of humor. Even porn is kind of done this way where the vulgar seems to be emphasized as sexy (such as the pornstar repeatedly screaming out phrases like "yeah fuck me!" "Yeah fuck that little pussy!"). Stuff like that is what he is calling "the toilet," not erotic content in of itself. In anime, vulgarity as a part of sex seems to be toned down a lot and instead a juxtaposition of cuteness and innocence with sexuality is frequently portrayed. The girls' bouncing boobs may be shown to titillate the audience but the anime doesn't do it to shock you into laughing. Awkward situations are used as comedy devices but to me, anime rarely ever uses "gross out humor" in the form of sexual content as a method of comedy. Girls in anime are often portrayed as sexy, but also cute and innocent. YossaRedMage simply prefers this style over a style where, for example, a "sexy girl" is portrayed as very brash. |
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Ryuk9428 said: Interesting perspective. So basically, by this, you mean you see "raunchiness" as a product of shocking vulgarity + sexual content. I guess I see it differently: for me, "raunchiness" is that style of attention-seeking display of sexuality, rather than a shock value or vulgarity. So a porn actor going "yeah fuck me!" and the camera communicating "hey look at these titties!" has that same sense of "raunch" that is absent from something like the sex scenes in Yosuga no Sora, the latter of which I found a lot more meaningful.GlennMagusHarvey said: Affection, emotional support, (hopefully mutual) infatuation, and so on are elements of romance that are not inherently sexual. And moments of physical intimacy may not necessarily be sexual moments. There are instances where people feel a sexual attraction to someone but not a romantic one, or a romantic attraction to someone but not a sexual one. While the two are obviously linked, they are also distinct concepts. Ehh, fanservice of the "hey look at them big bouncy titties" sort is more like installing toilets in the living room, by that analogy. I think the point @YossaRedMage is trying to make here is that intentionally erotic content is not necessarily vulgar. In a lot of other media, highly sexual works are what we typically call "raunchy" in that the sexual content is usually done in a very crude and vulgar manner for the purpose of humor. Even porn is kind of done this way where the vulgar seems to be emphasized as sexy (such as the pornstar repeatedly screaming out phrases like "yeah fuck me!" "Yeah fuck that little pussy!"). Stuff like that is what he is calling "the toilet," not erotic content in of itself. In anime, vulgarity as a part of sex seems to be toned down a lot and instead a juxtaposition of cuteness and innocence with sexuality is frequently portrayed. The girls' bouncing boobs may be shown to titillate the audience but the anime doesn't do it to shock you into laughing. Awkward situations are used as comedy devices but to me, anime rarely ever uses "gross out humor" in the form of sexual content as a method of comedy. Girls in anime are often portrayed as sexy, but also cute and innocent. YossaRedMage simply prefers this style over a style where, for example, a "sexy girl" is portrayed as very brash. |
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| Love those moments need more of them. Japan make it happen. |
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| @YossaRedMage The example of OP describes a situation where two girls trip and one makes a sexual noise despite nothing literally sexual happening. I haven't seen it so I'm not sure, but it's probable that both of them weren't "guilty" of sexual implications. You derailed this thread way too much anyway but whatever. I think this is something that happens in a lot of anime, be it for comedic purposes, sexual titillation or both. Sometimes girls or boys will be ignorant and unaware of "sexuality" in some sense. The word innocence could be applied here https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innocent Your problems with certain attitudes doesn't really have anything to do with this but interesting to read anyway |
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GlennMagusHarvey said: Ryuk9428 said: Interesting perspective. So basically, by this, you mean you see "raunchiness" as a product of shocking vulgarity + sexual content. I guess I see it differently: for me, "raunchiness" is that style of attention-seeking display of sexuality, rather than a shock value or vulgarity. So a porn actor going "yeah fuck me!" and the camera communicating "hey look at these titties!" has that same sense of "raunch" that is absent from something like the sex scenes in Yosuga no Sora, the latter of which I found a lot more meaningful.I think the point @YossaRedMage is trying to make here is that intentionally erotic content is not necessarily vulgar. In a lot of other media, highly sexual works are what we typically call "raunchy" in that the sexual content is usually done in a very crude and vulgar manner for the purpose of humor. Even porn is kind of done this way where the vulgar seems to be emphasized as sexy (such as the pornstar repeatedly screaming out phrases like "yeah fuck me!" "Yeah fuck that little pussy!"). Stuff like that is what he is calling "the toilet," not erotic content in of itself. In anime, vulgarity as a part of sex seems to be toned down a lot and instead a juxtaposition of cuteness and innocence with sexuality is frequently portrayed. The girls' bouncing boobs may be shown to titillate the audience but the anime doesn't do it to shock you into laughing. Awkward situations are used as comedy devices but to me, anime rarely ever uses "gross out humor" in the form of sexual content as a method of comedy. Girls in anime are often portrayed as sexy, but also cute and innocent. YossaRedMage simply prefers this style over a style where, for example, a "sexy girl" is portrayed as very brash. I didn't think most of the sex scenes in Yosuga were meaningful plot devices. I think some of them were, but I also think they definitely added several in there for the sake of it. A lot of them were also pretty random and came out of nowhere. Personally, however, the fact that they did that doesn't bother me. You can add in sex scenes just to establish an erotic atmosphere for the show. But yeah, I think that "raunchy" means shocking vulgarity + sexual content rather than just sexual content. Kiss X Sis isn't really what I'd call raunchy for example. Ysouga wasn't really raunchy either. I consider them highly erotic shows rather than a raunchy one. South Park or The Nutshack on the other hand, is raunchy. |
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| Its one of my biggest turn offs when an anime is innocent in its nature but turns into unneeded fanservice that doesnt contribute to the story nor explores the themes of the anime, its just straight up disgusting and one of the main reasons i avoid ecchi shows in general (which is my least favourite genre anyway) Because its pretty obvious that these sexual parts were not made to explore the plot and themes but rather excite the viewer using a cheap tactic, and i dont know about you but when i see it, i just get super uncomfortable, which is clearly not the reaction i shouldve got from a scene that has nothing to do with sex |
yotiAug 13, 2019 6:09 PM
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Esquirtit said: two girls trip and one makes a sexual noise despite nothing literally sexual happening That's not what I said, son. I said the girl's head ends up between the other girl's legs. (Like oral sex.) |
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| love when they do this perfect example |
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| @IpreferEcchi I mean I was just guessing but that's not literally sexual right. Unless they have some sexual attraction to each other and got pleasure from it. I read it as a girl accidentally falling on another girl's pussy, making her moan in pain. But either way it could still be seen as something innocent |
| poop |
GlennMagusHarvey said: YossaRedMage said: It's not just because of stuck-up attitudes; there's also an irritating immaturity with which people do talk about sex.Still, because of stuck-up attitudes, many people tend to greatly downplay how interested in sex they are. I can agree with that. When I really like an anime, I'll occasionally watch reaction videos, and it bothers the hell out of me when people react to "fan service" in a childish way. Obviously, in those sorts of videos, the person is trying to exagerrate reactions, but there's a nuanced difference here. There are two types of exagerrated reactions to eroticism. One where they're doing kind of eyebrow raised, hot-under-collar, "wow that was steamy" reaction. And the other is like "LOL boobs". As to how much it's down to stuck-up attitudes as opposed the immature "LOL sex" attitudes, I kind of think they're not mutually exclusive. Sex is treated like this hidden, secret thing which we're not supposed to talk about. So some people, when they see it in the open or it's brought up around them, they kind of act like they're getting away with something, right? It's like a child saying "fuck" when his parents aren't around. So if it wasn't for the stuck-up attitudes, the immature, jokey attitudes wouldn't exist, or at least not in the same obnoxious form. GlennMagusHarvey said: YossaRedMage said: Affection, emotional support, (hopefully mutual) infatuation, and so on are elements of romance that are not inherently sexual. And moments of physical intimacy may not necessarily be sexual moments. There are instances where people feel a sexual attraction to someone but not a romantic one, or a romantic attraction to someone but not a sexual one. While the two are obviously linked, they are also distinct concepts.Acutally I disagree with the value of in exploring romance without sex. They are intricately linked. Romance without sexuality is just lesser. I can't see how any value is added by ignoring such a fundamentally important part of romance. It's a huge part of why romance is seperate form friendship. That instinctual urge to be physically intimate is inseperable from real romance. Please, if you can give me a way in which romance represented without sexuality can actually have more value then I'd be interested to hear it, but I highly doubt you can make a good case for that. I just plain disagree that romance and sexual attraction are distinct. A romantic relationship is far more emotionally deep than a friendship (maybe not far more, depending on various factors) because of the primal, instinctual urge to procreate. That sexual drive defines romantic relationships as seperate from friendship. Psychologists have known for a very long time how important sex is to a healthy, long-lasting romantic relationship. When the sex dries up, the level of emotional attachment tends to dry up also, and that's how a great many marriages fail. And you still didn't answer my question as to how there can possibly be the same level of value in a romance portrayed without sexuality as with it. A romantic story that ignores the phsycial attraction element is like a pizza without cheese. Sure, some unfortunate people can't eat cheese or don't like it, but the maximum potential value is always higher with the cheese for the those who can appreacite it's addition. I bolded that entire bit because I think it's really important. I get so frustrated when a romance in anime or any medium ignores the phsycial element for seemingly no reason, because I know for a fact it is because of the judgmental, stuck-up, kind of pretentious (in that people think sex makes a story less artistic) attitudes I have spoken of previously. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
Ryuk9428 said: No, it's not about just sexual content, but it's about a blatantness, a sense of pandering, that goes with that portrayal of sexual content, which in turn gives it a feeling of cheapness.But yeah, I think that "raunchy" means shocking vulgarity + sexual content rather than just sexual content. Kiss X Sis isn't really what I'd call raunchy for example. Ysouga wasn't really raunchy either. I consider them highly erotic shows rather than a raunchy one. South Park or The Nutshack on the other hand, is raunchy. South Park's shock value is different from raunchiness. Its shock value comes in part from introducing raunchiness (among other things) where it's not usually expected or considered acceptable. YossaRedMage said: I guess that's a plausible explanation for that immaturity, though that doesn't make that immaturity any better.As to how much it's down to stuck-up attitudes as opposed the immature "LOL sex" attitudes, I kind of think they're not mutually exclusive. Sex is treated like this hidden, secret thing which we're not supposed to talk about. So some people, when they see it in the open or it's brought up around them, they kind of act like they're getting away with something, right? It's like a child saying "fuck" when his parents aren't around. So if it wasn't for the stuck-up attitudes, the immature, jokey attitudes wouldn't exist, or at least not in the same obnoxious form. YossaRedMage said: Distinct doesn't mean separate. The Boston Red Sox is a popular baseball team that is very much integrated with Boston's history and culture, and many Bostonians are Red Sox fans, but not all Bostonians are Red Sox fans nor are all Red Sox fans Bostonians, so Red Sox fans and Bostonians are still distinct from each other. In this same way, sexual attraction without romance and romance without sexual attraction are both real phenomena. That's why they're distinct. They frequently overlap, but not always. Even within a single relationship that has both, the amount of each varies, and they are not equally present at all times.I just plain disagree that romance and sexual attraction are distinct. A romantic relationship is far more emotionally deep than a friendship (maybe not far more, depending on various factors) because of the primal, instinctual urge to procreate. That sexual drive defines romantic relationships as seperate from friendship. Psychologists have known for a very long time how important sex is to a healthy, long-lasting romantic relationship. When the sex dries up, the level of emotional attachment tends to dry up also, and that's how a great many marriages fail. YossaRedMage said: You probably picked a particularly bad analogy since food really is up to tastes, rather literally.And you still didn't answer my question as to how there can possibly be the same level of value in a romance portrayed without sexuality as with it. A romantic story that ignores the phsycial attraction element is like a pizza without cheese. Sure, some unfortunate people can't eat cheese or don't like it, but the maximum potential value is always higher with the cheese for the those who can appreacite it's addition. But going back to the actual subject of that analogy...I feel like you're asking this because you, personally, feel that portraying romance without sexuality is unfulfilling. Though in drawing that conclusion, I'm a little confused by your mention of physical attraction, because that seems to be not something that...may or may not be noteworthily sexual in nature? I mean, there's a noticeable emotional difference between "She looks hot; I wanna bang her" and "she looks beautiful; I love her". So are we talking about portraying romance without portraying people getting it on in the sack, or are we talking about portraying romance without even a hint of infatuation? Because the former seems more reasonable than the latter. YossaRedMage said: The latter half of your sentence really makes me feel like you're trying too hard to push your opinion on this point. I actually agree with you that sexual content should not be automatically seen as lowbrow or inferior, but on the other hand I do feel that a good lot of it does feel cheap. (It's not the only thing that can feel cheap, of course.)I get so frustrated when a romance in anime or any medium ignores the phsycial element for seemingly no reason, because I know for a fact it is because of the judgmental, stuck-up, kind of pretentious (in that people think sex makes a story less artistic) attitudes I have spoken of previously. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| @GlennMagusHarvey Yeah South Park is much more creative in how they use raunchy sexual content so they might've been a bad example. I suppose the Nutshack is a good example but most people haven't seen that so I'll just go with Scary Movie as an example of what I mean. Maybe Family Guy as well. I think all good romance should have some "she looks hot, I wanna bang her" feelings. Romantic relationships are basically a combination of that and "she looks beautiful, I love her." What's wrong with pandering? The fact that they so blatantly try to make it sexy is what I love about ecchi. @Yotamdin The problem isn't with ecchi or with fanservice scenes that are created with the purpose of exciting the viewer. The problem is that you're frigid and haven't learned to accept your own sexual feelings. |
Ryuk9428Aug 13, 2019 9:54 PM
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| I'd say it's a pretty interesting side thing but that's just about it. |
ええ、私はそこにいてそれをやった  |
I think this scene isn't really sexual. My memory might be wrong but I don't remember him reacting in anyway that would make it sexual so to say. But not sure my memory is terrible. |
 |
Ryuk9428 said: Now I'm curious; what would you call the latter alone?I think all good romance should have some "she looks hot, I wanna bang her" feelings. Romantic relationships are basically a combination of that and "she looks beautiful, I love her." Ryuk9428 said: Perhaps it is to your taste, in which case you're fortunate; it isn't to my tastes, so it feels like an cheaply and often grossly inaccurate attempt to hit a target. This might also have to do with how I'm not really into slapsticky anime comedy, i.e. the realm that includes (but is obviously not limited to) stuff like "accidental pervert" gags.What's wrong with pandering? The fact that they so blatantly try to make it sexy is what I love about ecchi. I prefer when the fanservice just goes by in passing (e.g. a momentary panty-shot, or panning over someone's swimsuit-clad body) where the show doesn't dwell on it. If I don't like it, I can pretend I didn't see it, but if I do like it, then it just serves to enhance the character's attractiveness; the overall focus is still on whatever action is going on. On the other hand, if the show stops to make a big point of it, that's when it becomes kinda annoying, because it feels like it's begging for my attention, which sorta defeats the point. I don't need to be told to find someone attractive; I either do or I don't, but it's a very natural feeling. Making a big deal of it, on the other hand, makes it feel cheap. Imagine if you're a kid and you like Pokémon, but then once your dad finds out about it he'll make a point about how you like Pokémon every time you're with your friends or every time you pass by a toy store or video game store. It becomes awkward even if you like Pokémon. This is a similar feeling of awkwardness. And it's doubly more awkward if you actually don't like Pokémon but your dad thinks you do and because you know it was based on something dumb like "kids your age are into Pokémon" it also feels awfully superficial and kinda insulting. It's similarly awkward and vaguely insulting to be shown big boobs because "guys like you are into big boobs" particularly if you're not. Anyhow I think this is more about fanservice rather than ecchi (at least based on Manaban's explanation to me a while back) so this might be off-the-mark from your comment. Ryuk9428 said: ...*backs away*...presumptuous much?@Yotamdin The problem isn't with ecchi or with fanservice scenes that are created with the purpose of exciting the viewer. The problem is that you're frigid and haven't learned to accept your own sexual feelings. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| Idk, depends on the context I guess. As long as it doesn't feel unnecessary and out of place I'm fine with it I think the general key phrase here is "reading the mood". If an addition like that works for comedic appeal or good eye candy then it can be a positive, but if it comes at the cost of distracting you from whatever plot-centric events were otherwise occuring in the same scene then it just comes off as unnecessary. So it depends |
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Zelkiiro said: Sexuality and ecchi should serve an actual narrative purpose (e.g. Kill la Kill I disagree about Kill la Kill. I do not find anything sexual there (nudity is not enough for sexuality, it needs certain approaches to become sexual). Otherwise, yes, anime is full of sexual jokes and scenes out of place. The " Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso" begins with a scene where the male MC finds the female MC pants (not panties) on a tree? "Made in Abyss" - punishment in the orphanage is to be bounded naked. "Eden of the East" - the male MC meet for the first time and drag the female MC while being chased naked. "Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo" - a lot of scenes where the girls approach the male MC sexually. "Kokoro Connect" - the "alien" thing clearly has dirty intentions when acts upon the 5 characters. "Elfen Lied". "Ouran Koukou Host Club" - peeking. "The familiar of zero" - sexual whip slashing. In all of the above, none of the sexual scenes contribute anything to the plot or chemistry between the characters. All of those tells amazing stories, and yet, because of certain scenes, they can repel audience that is not accepting "aaah, it is Japanese after all" stuff. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: Ryuk9428 said: Now I'm curious; what would you call the latter alone?I think all good romance should have some "she looks hot, I wanna bang her" feelings. Romantic relationships are basically a combination of that and "she looks beautiful, I love her." Ryuk9428 said: Perhaps it is to your taste, in which case you're fortunate; it isn't to my tastes, so it feels like an cheaply and often grossly inaccurate attempt to hit a target. This might also have to do with how I'm not really into slapsticky anime comedy, i.e. the realm that includes (but is obviously not limited to) stuff like "accidental pervert" gags.What's wrong with pandering? The fact that they so blatantly try to make it sexy is what I love about ecchi. I prefer when the fanservice just goes by in passing (e.g. a momentary panty-shot, or panning over someone's swimsuit-clad body) where the show doesn't dwell on it. If I don't like it, I can pretend I didn't see it, but if I do like it, then it just serves to enhance the character's attractiveness; the overall focus is still on whatever action is going on. On the other hand, if the show stops to make a big point of it, that's when it becomes kinda annoying, because it feels like it's begging for my attention, which sorta defeats the point. I don't need to be told to find someone attractive; I either do or I don't, but it's a very natural feeling. Making a big deal of it, on the other hand, makes it feel cheap. Imagine if you're a kid and you like Pokémon, but then once your dad finds out about it he'll make a point about how you like Pokémon every time you're with your friends or every time you pass by a toy store or video game store. It becomes awkward even if you like Pokémon. This is a similar feeling of awkwardness. And it's doubly more awkward if you actually don't like Pokémon but your dad thinks you do and because you know it was based on something dumb like "kids your age are into Pokémon" it also feels awfully superficial and kinda insulting. It's similarly awkward and vaguely insulting to be shown big boobs because "guys like you are into big boobs" particularly if you're not. Anyhow I think this is more about fanservice rather than ecchi (at least based on Manaban's explanation to me a while back) so this might be off-the-mark from your comment. Ryuk9428 said: ...*backs away*...presumptuous much?@Yotamdin The problem isn't with ecchi or with fanservice scenes that are created with the purpose of exciting the viewer. The problem is that you're frigid and haven't learned to accept your own sexual feelings. That situation would be sort of like loving them in the way you'd love your sister than a romantic way if you never think about them being hot or wanting to bang them. I'm not really a "big boob fan" I guess you could say. I don't mind big boobs, but I suppose its not like I go crazy over them. Never would say that seeing big boobs in an anime bothers me though. I think we're fundamentally at odds here though cause I do like when the anime draws attention to it and zooms in on fanservice moments. For the person I was replying to. Why else would you be "uncomfortable" seeing sexy girls or something sexy on your TV? It just sounds like someone who's really frigid. This is the kind of stuff I complained about when I was like ten years old and when I did, nobody indulged these ridiculous feelings. I was rightly told to get over it. But here on this forum we've got a bunch of straight guys complaining that boobs and sexy girls in anime make them uncomfortable. I mean how ridiculous is that? |
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| @Ryuk9428 sorry if it wasn't clear but I meant "you" as general "you" rather than specifically you. But yeah I suppose it is fundamentally a question of taste. I have a similar dislike, albeit perhaps to different extents, for when a fantasy show shows me RPG stats, or when I see a show juxtapose meaningful (e.g. painful) injury/destruction and slapstick-comedy "non-meaningful" injury/destruction. It's just something that I don't enjoy seeing. I find beauty itself (of the gender relevant to me) to be sexually appealing, while expressly pointing out sex appeal ends up being sexually unappealing. Another thing you may find odd is that in Cross Ange the only fanservice I complain about is . That's because it sticks out and doesn't fit with the story, in the way that basically everything else that's fanservice fits in smoothly (including the sex scene, for that matter). And strangely enough, I didn't even find Cross Ange that titillating, despite its reputation -- instead I just found the story incredibly effective at emotional catharsis. Meanwhile, for actual sex appeal, I find various characters in other series more effective, like Natsuki Kuga with her sleek, serious look, or Laffinty Fin E Ld Si with her accidentally awkward staidness to go along with her (not pictured on MAL) really sleek-looking pilot suit (or let's just make her wear a wetsuit to advertise the surfing club, resulting in a particularly cute scene as well as an amusingly self-referential moment of meta-humor that I enjoyed). The issue isn't whether sexuality is displayed; it's how it's displayed that affects how much it appeals to me. |
GlennMagusHarveyAug 14, 2019 5:22 AM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Calal-Chan said: that’s my bad. I realized after watching without a boner, I was the one who was making it sexualI think this scene isn't really sexual. My memory might be wrong but I don't remember him reacting in anyway that would make it sexual so to say. But not sure my memory is terrible. |
| “The world is full of nice people. If you can't find one, be one.” ― Nishan Panwar 8=D ~ O: |
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