Here're two prototypical "true lolis":  Notice the proportion of the legs. Then there's a list of characters that are often called lolis but some also argue they aren't actually lolis and I always felt there is something about it that makes them nonloli and I think I figured it out: note the length of the legs:     Now look at this version of Taiga:  Cut the legs short and the character immediately appears like an actual loli again. This seems to be what they've done repeatedly: these characters don't appear all that young despite being short and having a very præpubescent looking torso because they made the legs significantly longer than is normal for actual loli age. |
 It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| I appreciate the thought that has gone into this profound revelation |
| Your minister has discovered the long lost art of cultural appreciation. Gain +120 cultural research. Your minister gained the title 'Famous Lolly Count' |
| Hmmm interesting, ive never thought about it before. |
| I thought people just called them petite |
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HaXXspetten said: The word Loli is used quite often for those characters; in particular the top two which canonically are in an æternally 8 and 11 year old body respectively but I always felt there was something about them that made them look older though I couldn't quite put my finger to what it was but I feel it's the legs.I thought people just called them petite So despite being said to be in 8 and 11 year old bodies they're indeed just short flatchests. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
She's an elementary school student (Yoiko) |
| I don't mind long or short leg lolis. Both work for me. |
  Never explain, Never retract, Never apologize Just get the thing done And let them howl |
| This simply looks not like a loli in more ways than one — it's hardly just the legs. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| i am a long leg loli, do you wanna me instead? |
| Interesting observation but we shouldn't disregard the fact that Rin is 7 whereas the other girls are in high school or around that age. I think the actual thing you're noticing is the difference between older girls who happen to be lolis and actual child characters. And it's not just longer legs either. They also tend to be taller and slimmer in general. Especially the limbs. |
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vegeta8639 said: Well Syana is an æternal loli that canonically in a body that stopped aging at the age of 11; Khamsin goes even further and made the contract at 7. Khamsin's legs are too long for a 7-year old by proportion; he looks rather like a short teenager just like Syana.Interesting observation but we shouldn't disregard the fact that Rin is 7 whereas the other girls are in high school or around that age. I think the actual thing you're noticing is the difference between older girls who happen to be lolis and actual child characters. And it's not just longer legs either. They also tend to be taller and slimmer in general. Especially the limbs. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
Sphinxter said: vegeta8639 said: Well Syana is an æternal loli that canonically in a body that stopped aging at the age of 11; Khamsin goes even further and made the contract at 7. Khamsin's legs are too long for a 7-year old by proportion; he looks rather like a short teenager just like Syana.Interesting observation but we shouldn't disregard the fact that Rin is 7 whereas the other girls are in high school or around that age. I think the actual thing you're noticing is the difference between older girls who happen to be lolis and actual child characters. And it's not just longer legs either. They also tend to be taller and slimmer in general. Especially the limbs. So Shana would still be 4 years older than Rin which my point pretty much still stands. And the other guy's a dude so I don't know if we should even take him into consideration. Although I would say he definitely looks older than 7. |
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vegeta8639 said: Syana definitely does not have the body proportions of an 11 year old human.Sphinxter said: Well Syana is an æternal loli that canonically in a body that stopped aging at the age of 11; Khamsin goes even further and made the contract at 7. Khamsin's legs are too long for a 7-year old by proportion; he looks rather like a short teenager just like Syana. So Shana would still be 4 years older than Rin which my point pretty much still stands. And the other guy's a dude so I don't know if we should even take him into consideration. Although I would say he definitely looks older than 7. Body proportions like that differentiate not between the sexes before puberty. If they show no genitals then there's no difference between a male and female loli — the only reason Khamsin's male is because they tell you he is.Khamsin definitely has the appropriate height for a 7 year old but the legs are just too long making him look like a short teenager with a very young face instead. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| Looks like science has gone too far. |
 |
In the anime I'd say she does unless you just wanna nitpick stuff like her eyes being big. In the LN art, her features are more exaggerated. In any case I'm talking about what the characters are meant to resemble. It doesn't have to be 100% accurate compared to reality. Rin is younger so they made her shorter with shorter thicker limbs. Shana is older so they made her taller with longer thinner limbs. That's really all I'm trying to say. Sphinxter said: Body proportions like that differentiate not between the sexes before puberty. If they show no genitals then there's no difference between a male and female loli Even if I agreed with that premise (which I don't), the fact that the artist is aware that they're mean to be drawing a male is definitely gonna impact the way they're gonna draw him even if there wouldn't be a difference in the real world. If you want to say that this is true for literally every anime character whose genitals are not shown, then I will agree with you but it's a throw away statement. Otherwise I disagree. There's plenty of things that made me aware he was a guy before the show "told me". |
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| I mean, I think MOST anime characters have longer legs than real humans because it looks attractive. I think a female character only needs to be short (a good deal shorter than the other chars on her show) and she NORMALLY has a flat chest. I still have no idea why Hestia is referred to as a "loli"; that is the biggest chest on a 'loli' character I've ever seen. =_= The light novel AND anime website describe Shana with "the appearance of an 11-year-old girl." Shana is definitely a loli heroine. Khamshin looks the same age as her; I've been calling him 'the Desert Shota' when I watch the show lol Like the others said, Rin looks younger and shorter because she is nine. She grows over the course of the manga though....probably up to Shana's level. her chest might actually be bigger than Shana's though xD |
ChiibiAug 4, 2019 7:21 PM
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| For some reason, I thought there would be lolis with granddaddy long legs. |
| The term "loli" as a categorization is stupid because basically all anime girls are drawn cute with wholly unrealistic proportions anyway, and on top of that, half the time "loli" gets used to mean "sexualized cute anime girl" anyway, with its corresponding giant batch of internet backdraft arguments over ethics. (The other half of the time it just means "cute anime girl" generically, which (1) is just getting replaced with "waifu" anyway (which is about equally as stupid but doesn't raise as many ethical backdrafts) and (2) can get co-opted by people who try to peddle their taste for said sexualization but then use this usage as cover). Anyhow, I'm going to agree with whoever said earlier, the relevant term here would simply be "petite". Also, let's be honest...given that there's basically no other measures of maturity via body proportions due to them varying like mad by art style (and can often be impossibly thin), and that's not even getting into chibi proportions which shouldn't even count for any serious consideration... Sphinxter said: ...this is merely a fancy way of saying "doesn't have boobs".having a very præpubescent looking torso Which is unfair to a variety of mature women with small chests. particularly because they are more attractive for this reason |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Chiibi said: And I think most lolis haven't because it makes them look more childlike.I mean, I think MOST anime characters have longer legs than real humans because it looks attractive. Like the others said, Rin looks younger and shorter because she is nine. She grows over the course of the manga though....probably up to Shana's level. her chest might actually be bigger than Shana's though xD Yes, at the end of the series Rin is 16 — still looks very young with a flat chest but is taller and has longer legs. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| I do not have expertise in this matter. I guess a childlike girl with long legs can't be a loli. |
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GlennMagusHarvey said: And typically these include having breasts and hips which loli characters — be they longleg-lolis or full lolis — tend lack in hole.The term "loli" as a categorization is stupid because basically all anime girls are drawn cute with wholly unrealistic proportions anyway and on top of that, half the time "loli" gets used to mean "sexualized cute anime girl" anyway That has absolutely not been my experience — however quite it be this will never be called a loli. Breasts are too large, hips are too wide, waist is too slender.Anyhow, I'm going to agree with whoever said earlier, the relevant term here would simply be "petite". "petite" just refers to being short; one can be "petite" and have things like big breasts, a beard, broad shoulders, wide hips and all sorts of other secondary sex characteristics that these characters typically lack.Also, let's be honest...given that there's basically no other measures of maturity via body proportions due to them varying like mad by art style (and can often be impossibly thin), and that's not even getting into chibi proportions which shouldn't even count for any serious consideration... Sphinxter said: ...this is merely a fancy way of saying "doesn't have boobs".having a very præpubescent looking torso Which is unfair to a variety of mature women with small chests. particularly because they are more attractive for this reason Why would it be "unfair" to point out that mammary development is a secondary sex characteristic emerging in puberty? Be one female and lacking it after puberty that is indeed a case of in that specific case having reduced secondary sex characteristics? |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
Sphinxter said: Chiibi said: And I think most lolis haven'tI mean, I think MOST anime characters have longer legs than real humans because it looks attractive. Most lolis I can think of (who are over the age of nine) do have long legs though? There's Shana and all of her 'clones' like Taiga, Louise, Aria, and Nagi...then there's Eu and Haruna from Is This a Zombie (Haruna may not be short enough to be a loli though) Silica, Menma, Illiya, Index, the list goes on... |
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Chiibi said: And those would exactly be the characters whose loli status is often debated with many arguing they look not actually like lolis and I argue the legs is why.Sphinxter said: And I think most lolis haven't Most lolis I can think of (who are over the age of nine) do have long legs though? There's Shana and all of her 'clones' like Taiga, Louise, Aria, and Nagi...then there's Eu and Haruna from Is This a Zombie (Haruna may not be short enough to be a loli though) Silica, Menma, Illiya, Index, the list goes on... This is opposed to actual childlike loli characters like Rin, Sagiri, Lotte, Honey, Asuha, Kanako and whatever that have short legs that make them appear completely childlike. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| It's just another point of fetishization of children. You can also note long leg lolis with thigh gaps, lolis with thick legs, lolis with breasts, flat lolis, etc. Girls in real life have varying length legs. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Sphinxter said: Meanwhile I've seen Sieglinde Baumgarde referred to as "a loli with boobs".GlennMagusHarvey said: And typically these include having breasts and hips which loli characters — be they longleg-lolis or full lolis — tend lack in hole.The term "loli" as a categorization is stupid because basically all anime girls are drawn cute with wholly unrealistic proportions anyway and on top of that, half the time "loli" gets used to mean "sexualized cute anime girl" anyway That has absolutely not been my experience — however quite it be this will never be called a loli. Breasts are too large, hips are too wide, waist is too slender.Anyhow, I'm going to agree with whoever said earlier, the relevant term here would simply be "petite". "petite" just refers to being short; one can be "petite" and have things like big breasts, a beard, broad shoulders, wide hips and all sorts of other secondary sex characteristics that these characters typically lack.Also, let's be honest...given that there's basically no other measures of maturity via body proportions due to them varying like mad by art style (and can often be impossibly thin), and that's not even getting into chibi proportions which shouldn't even count for any serious consideration... Basically my point is that, particularly given the tendency to draw things to be cute/sexy/otherwise-attractive and to use unrealistic proportions and body features to do so, physiological changes such as (but not limited to) secondary sex characteristics are not necessarily good measures of age (and thus "loli" status) of anime characters (in either direction), except maybe between characters within the same series (and sometimes even then)....this is merely a fancy way of saying "doesn't have boobs". Mammary development would be one secondary sex charactaristic; there are many more to it. The shoulders and waistline are also formed in a præpubescent manner. Really it seems like the characters are for its entirety with the exception of the oddly long legs.Which is unfair to a variety of mature women with small chests. particularly because they are more attractive for this reason Why would it be "unfair" to point out that mammary development is a secondary sex characteristic emerging in puberty? Be one female and lacking it after puberty that is indeed a case of in that specific case having reduced secondary sex characteristics?(A character can certainly exhibit physiological change -- an example I ran across recently was how (in Aikatsu) Aoi Kiriya's chin got subtly sharper as she got older in a brief montage of her sitting in front of the computer as she grew up. But again, this is within one series (for the same character, even).) The sole exception to this is boobies, which are frequently tossed around as "proof" of a character's age, though it's not like boobies are even consistently applied either (nor even in real life sometimes). You do have an interesting point in noting that some characters with arguably childlike features are drawn using long legs more characteristic of adult proportions. But I just think that neither said "arguably childlike features" nor the aforementioned long legs are necessarily all that meaningful in assessing the character's age or physiological maturity, since it's hard to distinguish such features from stylization. ...but yeah, if only someone actually put some scholarly research into neoteny in anime art stylization. This is actually a rather interesting topic -- albeit one that elicits endless snickering. |
GlennMagusHarveyAug 4, 2019 9:18 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
katsucats said: Maybe so but a præpubescent human in real life showing breast development and long legs would be considered a medically præcocious puberty — anything can happen but it's unusual.It's just another point of fetishization of children. You can also note long leg lolis with thigh gaps, lolis with thick legs, lolis with breasts, flat lolis, etc. Girls in real life have varying length legs. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
Sphinxter said: Maybe not breasts, but I've seen plenty of kids with long legs. Don't worry, I'm not hanging out at the playground, it's just always summertime in Los Angeles.katsucats said: Maybe so but a præpubescent human in real life showing breast development and long legs would be considered a medically præcocious puberty — anything can happen but it's unusual.It's just another point of fetishization of children. You can also note long leg lolis with thigh gaps, lolis with thick legs, lolis with breasts, flat lolis, etc. Girls in real life have varying length legs. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
katsucats said: Yes yes, I picked up on your repressed pædophilic tendencies the first time — no need to make it extra obvious that inside you you keep contained a man of culture that loves lolis.Sphinxter said: Maybe not breasts, but I've seen plenty of kids with long legs. Don't worry, I'm not hanging out at the playground, it's just always summertime in Los Angeles.Maybe so but a præpubescent human in real life showing breast development and long legs would be considered a medically præcocious puberty — anything can happen but it's unusual. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
Sphinxter said: And those would exactly be the characters whose loli status is often debated with many arguing they look not actually like lolis and I argue the legs is why. Never have I EVER heard of Kugimiya Rie lolis being "debated" over their loli status; everyone knows she is the Loli Tsundere Queen. lol |
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Chiibi said: Sphinxter said: And those would exactly be the characters whose loli status is often debated with many arguing they look not actually like lolis and I argue the legs is why. Never have I EVER heard of Kugimiya Rie lolis being "debated" over their loli status; everyone knows she is the Loli Tsundere Queen. lol https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1451326 https://www.reddit.com/r/ZeroNoTsukaima/comments/9os1ki/louise_a_loli/ https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=103655 So now you have and you clearly see differing opinions; think you that there would be differing opinions with Asuha or Rin? These characters whereof they debate it always looked off to me in some way as lolis; I couldn't quite figure out what it was and what the reason was why they're debated so much but I think I figured it out now. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| Quite the profound revelation indeed. You are finding the real answers to the problem. |
ええ、私はそこにいてそれをやった  |
Sphinxter said: Chiibi said: Never have I EVER heard of Kugimiya Rie lolis being "debated" over their loli status; everyone knows she is the Loli Tsundere Queen. lol https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1451326 https://www.reddit.com/r/ZeroNoTsukaima/comments/9os1ki/louise_a_loli/ https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=103655 This is SO weird. I always thought it was unquestionable. lol there would be differing opinions with Asuha or Rin? No, I mean, they are KIDS, aren't they? These characters whereof they debate it always looked off to me in some way as lolis; I couldn't quite figure out what it was and what the reason was why they're debated so much but I think I figured it out now. *shrugs* Some loli characters look older than other loli characters. This "true loli" mindset you have is just silly."This teenage loli has longer legs than this nine-year-old one!" Of course she does. From the many years of my experience in the anime and manga fandom Loli characters are: *either 13 and under OR they look 13 and under. * Short and flat-chested *may be sexualized or may not be. Like, that's all there is to it. They either look young for their age or are actually young. I had no idea people based lolis on "how they act"....that's weird.... |
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Chiibi said: I constantly see debates about these characters whether they are or not and as I said I can see why; there's something about them that makes them look old for a loli and I believe it's the legs.Sphinxter said: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1451326 https://www.reddit.com/r/ZeroNoTsukaima/comments/9os1ki/louise_a_loli/ https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=103655 This is SO weird. I always thought it was unquestionable. lol No, I mean, they are KIDS, aren't they? So is Syana or at least Syana's body is only 1 year older than Asuha's. but the fact that Syana is typically drawn with far longer legs makes the character simply look like "an underdeveloped short teenager" rather than an actual loli.*shrugs* Some loli characters look older than other loli characters. This "true loli" mindset you have is just silly."This teenage loli has longer legs than this nine-year-old one!" Well — it's my contention that specifically the set of characters whereof it's often debated whether the members be lolis or not are the set of long-legged characters. That's the point of this topic: to identify the reason why characters like Taiga, Louise and Syana are on the edge and so debated and it's my contention that this is due to the legs.Of course she does. The leg issue is hardly about how they act. Lolis are obviously characters that show no signs of puberty yet – long legs are a sign of puberty. I would also argue that things like broad shoulders and wide hips disqualify a character from being a loli as does removing the rounding in the face in place of either a square or pointy jaw. There are far more signs of sexual maturity than breast growth and height alone.From the many years of my experience in the anime and manga fandom Loli characters are: *either 13 and under OR they look 13 and under. * Short and flat-chested *may be sexualized or may not be. Like, that's all there is to it. They either look young for their age or are actually young. I had no idea people based lolis on "how they act"....that's weird... What about Haruhi from Ouran High School Host Club? the character is also relatively short and completely flat but never called a loli because the legs are too long, the shoulders too broad and the face isn't round enough with the chin too pointy. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| lol, meanwhile I just find the word both distasteful and annoyingly vague so I just don't even bother using it. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Tarotsu said: For some reason, I thought there would be lolis with granddaddy long legs. I immediately thought when I saw the title of the thread if spider lolis exist. And they do! No, not Peni Parker... |
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| This thread has been an entertaining read. Thanks Sphinxter. |
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Sphinxter said: What about Haruhi from Ouran High School Host Club? the character is also relatively short and completely flat but never called a loli because the legs are too long, the shoulders too broad and the face isn't round enough with the chin too pointy. Haruhi's not a loli because she still looks sixteen; she's no shorter than the other girls on the show. People excluding the Kugimiya characters are just retarded. YES, they are lolis. They are drawn to appeal to a male audience that likes that kind of youthful character and they are given sex appeal. NO QUESTION. I don't agree that "long legs are a sign of puberty". I hit puberty pretty late but my legs were probably getting longer around the age of seven...so nah. |
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| Okay i just hope this wont be a unit of measurement. "Go buy this, make sure it's 11 loli legs long" or "loli leg for scale" |
Chiibi said: I don't agree that "long legs are a sign of puberty". I hit puberty pretty late but my legs were probably getting longer around the age of seven...so nah. https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=puberty-adolescent-female-90-P01635 "Her body size will increase, with the feet, arms, legs, and hands beginning to grow in advance of the body. This may cause a girl to feel clumsy." This is how the growth spurt in puberty largely works; it is not the torso that grows so much as the limbs do. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| Fine but Shiro from NGNL has the same graceful long legs like Shana and everyone calls her a loli. So...I don't think leg length matters in loli status. Not at all. |
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| If you keep going down this hole you ain't coming back out friend |
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