| Oh my god, how did your opinion change of the show, after this big reveal? Mod Edit: Modified title to prevent spoiling. |
ArdanazDec 11, 2018 10:55 AM
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| only my opinion changed that on Lily. Further then that why would i change my opinion on the show because of a trap lol |
Groenboys said: only my opinion changed that on Lily. Further then that why would i change my opinion on the show because of a trap lol Well, it definitely changed for the better for me, that's why I'm asking you see. |
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| wow then I totally missed something |
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| well not much but it was still but did not expect her to be though lol |
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| I appreciate that it gave us a totally ridiculous and funny death scene. One hair...LOL. That was brilliant. Also I like that the reveal wasn't just played for laughs alone. I think the episode had some unexpected emotional depth too, and that's what makes the show stand out. |
| SHE IS NOT JUST A TRAP, SHE IS A ETERNAL LOLI TRAP! The show is just getting more amazing every week. |
| Thanks for the spoiler, I guess. |
| I still like the show, and Lily being a trap will not change my enjoyement of it, but I would lie if I say the reveal didn't totally took me by surprise, because, unlike other traps of the likes of Astolfo or Saika Totsuka, due Zombieland Saga being anime original, there were no source material readers spoiling shit. |
IllyricusNov 22, 2018 12:12 PM
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| I made it in time before the reveal, so no big deal. |
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| IT CHANGED A LOT ! ONE MORE KAWAII MALE TO FEMALE TRAP ! ALL HAIL TRAPS ! Other than that the humour of this episode was picture perfect. And the emotional depht and drama as well. The magic of this anime is its lightness |
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| yeah btw tr*p is a transphobic term would you please mind not using it, thanks a lot |
| My opinion of the show hasn't changed. I still love it. Just sucks Lily is a trap. She went to being of the best girls and now she has to go to the trash. |
| Why stop at traps? Lets go full FUTA! |
Thy_Jeffinater said: I'm so confused is it confirmed that she is a trap (I don't care either way) but don't female get some sort of facial hair even if it's just a miniscule amount Her original name is Go. That's a masculine name. |
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| I figured the name being masculine was just part of the comedy. I did not see any indication of being trans in the whole episode? Women grow hair on their face too, everyone does. Especially since Lily's hair was on her cheek, and not like her chin or such. That and the hair on the legs is also a part of female puberty. If anything, a lot of this seems to apply to a female-born character?? I don't think there was any other indication on this other then the name and the puberty topic. (and honestly, a name is a horrible way to just assume trans character. I really think it just the name her father picked for her as a child, the joke being its very ill fitting.) Unless there was something I totally missed? |
pk6 said: I figured the name being masculine was just part of the comedy. I did not see any indication of being trans in the whole episode? Women grow hair on their face too, everyone does. Especially since Lily's hair was on her cheek, and not like her chin or such. That and the hair on the legs is also a part of female puberty. If anything, a lot of this seems to apply to a female-born character?? I don't think there was any other indication on this other then the name and the puberty topic. (and honestly, a name is a horrible way to just assume trans character. I really think it just the name her father picked for her as a child, the joke being its very ill fitting.) Unless there was something I totally missed? "Part of the comedy" is not something the series would care to tackle by having characters including Lily herself say that it was her old name but now she is Lily. It is serious, as serious as any basic character trait can be at the very least. Not everything in a comedy is a joke. Not something that establishes a significant part of the backstory and identity of a character. Also, the beard hair + concern about leg hair + actively negating that she'd grow like her father point to gender dysphoria pretty clearly. And the cause of death is ultimately shock caused by dysphoria, so... yeah. It's a fun and over-the-top death but it's related to the character's psyche. Mod Edit: Removed quote of deleted post. |
ArdanazDec 11, 2018 11:05 AM
| Now he can't shower with the others :( |
| It surprised me, but it made "her" a character with depth. |
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jal90 said: "Part of the comedy" is not something the series would care to tackle by having characters including Lily herself say that it was her old name but now she is Lily. It is serious, as serious as any basic character trait can be at the very least. Not everything in a comedy is a joke. Not something that establishes a significant part of the backstory and identity of a character. Also, the beard hair + concern about leg hair + actively negating that she'd grow like her father point to gender dysphoria pretty clearly. And the cause of death is ultimately shock caused by dysphoria, so... yeah. It's a fun and over-the-top death but it's related to the character's psyche. Except that is something this series would do. It has done it often enough to have comedy, even in the serious moments. As for the name change, that is very very common with actors and singers to take up new names, especially if your name isnt "cute enough" (very common for females). So on that end, i cant really say that backs up the trans thing. I still would say the hair part is part of puberty, male and female side. As it is, I think its a theory and not confirmed unless the series creators would say so. its not a horrible theory or anything, but i feel like its more wishing for it to be so then it actually being the case. |
oryouohagi said: Thy_Jeffinater said: I'm so confused is it confirmed that she is a trap (I don't care either way) but don't female get some sort of facial hair even if it's just a miniscule amount Her original name is Go. That's a masculine name. I don't know about Japanese naming culture but it is something solely reserved for males? English names has some leeway it and some names aren't even gender specific. I mean not that I mind but unless I'm missing something all the "evidence" seems pretty vague and not all conclusive. jal90 said: "Part of the comedy" is not something the series would care to tackle by having characters including Lily herself say that it was her old name but now she is Lily. It is serious, as serious as any basic character trait can be at the very least. Not everything in a comedy is a joke. Not something that establishes a significant part of the backstory and identity of a character. Isn't Lily Hoshikawa her stage name and one she prefers over her given name? It'd make just as much sense that she was simply unhappy about her parents choice of naming as it would her being transgender. I dunno people, I see a lot of wishing thinking more then I do hard evidence. EDIT: Okay just went over it again to confirm and there are two key scenes that for some weird ass reason people failed to mention. When the group confronts Koutarou Tatsumi and right after when they're talking about Lily's private parts. Those two scenes bring into question her identity and her biological gender. Now I'd say it's pretty clear that Lily is not a biological girl. Whether or not she's trans, a trap, or both isn't and important issue and I could care less. |
LordLagannNov 23, 2018 2:45 AM
pk6 said: jal90 said: "Part of the comedy" is not something the series would care to tackle by having characters including Lily herself say that it was her old name but now she is Lily. It is serious, as serious as any basic character trait can be at the very least. Not everything in a comedy is a joke. Not something that establishes a significant part of the backstory and identity of a character. Also, the beard hair + concern about leg hair + actively negating that she'd grow like her father point to gender dysphoria pretty clearly. And the cause of death is ultimately shock caused by dysphoria, so... yeah. It's a fun and over-the-top death but it's related to the character's psyche. Except that is something this series would do. It has done it often enough to have comedy, even in the serious moments. As for the name change, that is very very common with actors and singers to take up new names, especially if your name isnt "cute enough" (very common for females). So on that end, i cant really say that backs up the trans thing. I still would say the hair part is part of puberty, male and female side. As it is, I think its a theory and not confirmed unless the series creators would say so. its not a horrible theory or anything, but i feel like its more wishing for it to be so then it actually being the case. The series has legit character traits just like every other series has. What the fuck. And comedy doesn't detract from that. There is not only the issues with her body and her concerns that ultimately caused her death. There is also Lily talking about her masculine deadname, saying that it's her old name and saying that she is Lily now. There is Sakura and Kotaro explaining this and saying that she is Lily now. There is Saki referencing how masculine "Masao" is. There is talk about her genitals. Do you want more evidence when the series includes elements of dysphoria, gender identity, masculine deadname vs feminine name, reference to her genitals and an actual scene of Sakura telling the girls about Lily's condition ("Lily-chan was Masao-kun", in case you also want to take into account honorifics)? Because of course if Masao is only a random name her father gave her this would require a reunion and a later reaffirmation of her "stage name" like @LordLagann says. Which I would buy if it didn't turn that she and the rest are completely disregarding her old name and affirming her identity to be represented by "Lily". This is a bore, really. Trans characters shouldn't be this difficult to prove, much less when the series hits every spot out there about Lily being a freaking trans girl, from the psychological and emotional to the references to her anatomy, from deadname to dysphoria and from disregarding her previous identity to accepting her new one. Are you going to keep stretching this and look for alternatives like trans characters can't exist in a narrative? This is what we are getting at? |
jal90Nov 23, 2018 2:41 AM
| Am I the only one who thought Lily was best trapfu from day one? |
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| Knowing that there's one with a dick among them made the show better. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
misterreicchiNov 23, 2018 3:08 AM
jal90 said: This is a bore, really. Trans characters shouldn't be this difficult to prove, much less when the series hits every spot out there about Lily being a freaking trans girl, from the psychological and emotional to the references to her anatomy, from deadname to dysphoria and from disregarding her previous identity to accepting her new one. Are you going to keep stretching this and look for alternatives like trans characters can't exist in a narrative? This is what we are getting at? Not that it's an issue but after going over the episode I don't understand why everyone keeps referring to least convincing of evidence to support the argument. The two scenes where it's most likely concluding the fact that she is actually transgender, and the scenes that are most difficult to misinterpret, is when the group is confronting Koutarou Tatsumi about his knowledge of Lily's original identity and right after when their talking about her privates. He anchors down on the issue of her being transgender stating that there is a clear divide between the "girly group" and Lily's "problem" hinting towards the issue of her gender. The scene right after also shines a light on the issue of her privates which is obvious that the show is steering the audience to question her gender identity. If everyone just brought that up there would practically be no room to argue otherwise but for some reason people are so ready to reference vague dialogue. If those two scenes weren't there I'd be skeptical about this whole thing since outside of that the issue of gender is a non factor. There's no directly correlation between Lily's identity and a specific gender. It could of easily been an issue of private life vs idol life, puberty vs adolescence, or her simply wanting a less masculine name. Although the honorifics is also a strong point I don't remember anyone referring to her with it. Got a timestamp? |
LordLagann said: jal90 said: This is a bore, really. Trans characters shouldn't be this difficult to prove, much less when the series hits every spot out there about Lily being a freaking trans girl, from the psychological and emotional to the references to her anatomy, from deadname to dysphoria and from disregarding her previous identity to accepting her new one. Are you going to keep stretching this and look for alternatives like trans characters can't exist in a narrative? This is what we are getting at? Not that it's an issue but after going over the episode I don't understand why everyone keeps referring to least convincing of evidence to support the argument. The two scenes where it's most likely concluding the fact that she is actually transgender, and the scenes that are most difficult to misinterpret, is when the group is confronting Koutarou Tatsumi about his knowledge of Lily's original identity and right after when their talking about her privates. He anchors down on the issue of her being transgender stating that there is a clear divide between the "girly group" and Lily's "problem" hinting towards the issue of her gender. The scene right after also shines a light on the issue of her privates which is obvious that the show is steering the audience to question her gender identity. If everyone just brought that up there would practically be no room to argue otherwise but for some reason people are so ready to reference vague dialogue. If those two scenes weren't there I'd be skeptical about this whole thing since outside of that the issue of gender is a non factor. There's no directly correlation between Lily's identity and a specific gender. It could of easily been an issue of private life vs idol life, puberty vs adolescence, or her simply wanting a less masculine name. Although the honorifics is also a strong point I don't remember anyone referring to her with it. Got a timestamp? The timestamp of the honorifics is 12:25, right after the intermission. I also think it's a strong point, and I agree that your instances are particularly strong as well. And I know that perhaps one sign wouldn't be definitive, specially not if we only include names for instance, but rather than one pointing at it more clearly than the other I think what explains Lily's condition is having one after the other in a very specific narrative. You can have the character being distressed over having facial hair to the point of death and interpreting it as simply stress due to puberty and how it will affect her looks and her work (since cis girls have facial hair too) but then you know that she had a masculine name. You can have her disregarding her older name as a matter to embrace her stage name just because her older name sounds masculine, and then you have talk about her genitals. Rather than "this single scene proves or disproves this" I think we should talk about what the entire episode does as a combination of these single scenes because their context is what dictates their meaning. |
jal90 said: The timestamp of the honorifics is 12:25, right after the intermission. I also think it's a strong point, and I agree that your instances are particularly strong as well. And I know that perhaps one sign wouldn't be definitive, specially not if we only include names for instance, but rather than one pointing at it more clearly than the other I think what explains Lily's condition is having one after the other in a very specific narrative. You can have the character being distressed over having facial hair to the point of death and interpreting it as simply stress due to puberty and how it will affect her looks and her work (since cis girls have facial hair too) but then you know that she had a masculine name. You can have her disregarding her older name as a matter to embrace her stage name just because her older name sounds masculine, and then you have talk about her genitals. Rather than "this single scene proves or disproves this" I think we should talk about what the entire episode does as a combination of these single scenes because their context is what dictates their meaning. Lol how the hell did I miss that. Yeah that usage of honorifics also adds to the contrasting identities and issue of gender. As a whole it works as a series of various attempts to identity as Lily Hoshikawa rather then Masao Go but I think the whole episode is dependent on the establishment of her biological gender. Without that it's just people bickering over semantics and technicalities because the context isn't tied down to any specific issue. Even more so when people are trying to sway opinion while using examples that are neither here nor there. Once it established that there is a definite concern over Lily's biology than that's pretty much the smoking gun and things start to fall into place and click...buuuuut... Upon further examination I've concluded that Lily is not necessarily transgender. She is indeed a trap but it's not clear whether she identities as Lily Hoshikawa the girl, the idol, or both. |
oryouohagi said: Thy_Jeffinater said: I'm so confused is it confirmed that she is a trap (I don't care either way) but don't female get some sort of facial hair even if it's just a miniscule amount Her original name is Go. That's a masculine name. Go is her family name. The given name is Masao which is a male name. https://www.thenamemeaning.com/masao/ |
LordLagann said: Upon further examination I've concluded that Lily is not necessarily transgender. She is indeed a trap but it's not clear whether she identities as Lily Hoshikawa the girl, the idol, or both. I'd say this is pretty clear the moment she says "Masao was my old name". If Lily's identity was only for her idol persona she wouldn't need to disregard her old name. She could use it with her friends for instance, and at this point I'm quite certain she considers the other girls her friends. If this conversation was brought in the context of a stage representation, then sure, but it was brought in an intimate context. |
| Am I the only one that saw the episode. was so hung up on why lily died that I didn't catch the gender joke. came to the forum. Saw this topic then re-watched the episode and couldn't believe I missed it? Just me? alright.... Most epic death though. |
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D1tchd1gger said: oryouohagi said: Her original name is Go. That's a masculine name. Go is her family name. The given name is Masao which is a male name. https://www.thenamemeaning.com/masao/ Oh sorry, I didn't really recheck, just said it from the top of my head, you are right *teehee* Kidlike101 said: Am I the only one that saw the episode. was so hung up on why lily died that I didn't catch the gender joke. came to the forum. Saw this topic then re-watched the episode and couldn't believe I missed it? Just me? alright.... Most epic death though. Well, as I made the forum post, you can reckon I didn't share the same fate as you |
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LordLagann said: I don't know about Japanese naming culture but it is something solely reserved for males? English names has some leeway it and some names aren't even gender specific. I mean not that I mind but unless I'm missing something all the "evidence" seems pretty vague and not all conclusive. Sorry, I was corrected, her name is Masao, which is still a masculine name. Japanese naming is pretty strict from what I've gathered, but here's this wiki article as reference Although there are unisex names, Masao is not one of them I think |
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oryouohagi said: LordLagann said: I don't know about Japanese naming culture but it is something solely reserved for males? English names has some leeway it and some names aren't even gender specific. I mean not that I mind but unless I'm missing something all the "evidence" seems pretty vague and not all conclusive. Sorry, I was corrected, her name is Masao, which is still a masculine name. Japanese naming is pretty strict from what I've gathered, but here's this wiki article as reference Although there are unisex names, Masao is not one of them I think I know Akira is unisex. It means "bright child" which is apt for the film/manga. |
D1tchd1gger said: oryouohagi said: Sorry, I was corrected, her name is Masao, which is still a masculine name. Japanese naming is pretty strict from what I've gathered, but here's this wiki article as reference Although there are unisex names, Masao is not one of them I think I know Akira is unisex. It means "bright child" which is apt for the film/manga. There are a number of ways to write it though, not just bright child. You can simply wright it with bright, or you can use 亜喜良, which doesn't have a meaning as a whole, it's just ateji. There should be other ways to write it too. |
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oryouohagi said: There are a number of ways to write it though, not just bright child. You can simply wright it with bright, or you can use 亜喜良, which doesn't have a meaning as a whole, it's just ateji. There should be other ways to write it too. My Japanese isn't upto much, I just looked it up on a baby name site like the one above. The Japanese used in the film is アキラ. |
D1tchd1gger said: oryouohagi said: There are a number of ways to write it though, not just bright child. You can simply wright it with bright, or you can use 亜喜良, which doesn't have a meaning as a whole, it's just ateji. There should be other ways to write it too. My Japanese isn't upto much, I just looked it up on a baby name site like the one above. The Japanese used in the film is アキラ. Yeah, that's just the katakana version of akira, they use these charcters for foreign and borrowed words most of the time, but they use them for names aswell. |
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| TRAP + LOLI = Really ni🅱🅱a?? |
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jal90 said: I'd say this is pretty clear the moment she says "Masao was my old name". If Lily's identity was only for her idol persona she wouldn't need to disregard her old name. She could use it with her friends for instance, and at this point I'm quite certain she considers the other girls her friends. If this conversation was brought in the context of a stage representation, then sure, but it was brought in an intimate context. Yes we've established that she identifies as Lily Hoshikawa but we also have to keep in mind she's essentially living another life as a zombie. I don't doubt her sincerity but at this point it could be a myriad of things because Lily Hoshikawa isn't defined by a singular role let alone her biology (if that's even a thing to a zombie). It's also not clear why she abandoned her old identity. She could of simply dislike the idea of looking masculine but still not identity as feminine and just wanted to be youthful. Of course you could take it how you'd want but for me I haven't seen any strong indication that she wants to be Lily Hoshikawa specifically because she's identifies as girl. I think this is another example of vague dialogue where the context hasn't been tied to gender yet but people jump the gun. It's intimate, for example, sure but that's not necessarily a gender thing. |
Cabron said: OzuHanoi said: Lmao just stop.yeah btw tr*p is a transphobic term would you please mind not using it, thanks a lot #30characterlimit *Blinks* Yeah..... I don't know if that transphobic comment was serious. But, I thought that the term "Trap" Just meant that it looked like it was obviously one gender, when it was another gender entirely (Like a gender bend, I suppose? Though, gender bend characters tend to act differently (depending on their personality and so on) some act like guys when they are guys, or like girls when they are guys and vice-versa... I think?) I've seen guys that look (and act) like girls.... And girls that look (and act) like guys: all called traps. |
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| as long as she’s not explicitly stated she’s a trans, we can all make assumption, connecting all the dots, and make our own conclusion. and you can call her whatever you want because that’s your own interpretation. maybe ya’ll can ask the screenwriter or zombieland panel if ever exist one day. you’ll never know the creator intention my favorite is Yuugiri anyway so i’ll just wait for her past here. |
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oryouohagi said: Oh my god, how did your opinion change of the show, after this big reveal? it changed a lot, lily was one of my favorites from the show and I was excited for the Doujins/r34's. but now not so much. I know a lot of people will disagree with that but not all of us are gay, so please be respectful, if that makes sense. |
| MAL----------------->http://myanimelist.net/profile/Hakisak Steam ------------->http://steamcommunity.com/id/Hakisak/ Osu!---------------->https://osu.ppy.sh/u/hakisak MyFigureColletion ->http://myfigurecollection.net/profile/Hakisak |
| dropped, deleted and forgotten forever. I wanted a good reason to stop watching it, now I have one. |
Only_BradNov 23, 2018 9:48 PM
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