What is it about Kiritsugu, that makes him more popular than even Shiro - leading hero of Fate franchise? (SPOILERS)
| he is slightly less trash, but its not hard to be better than that pile of garbage shirou |
| Shirou is a bland character. Kiritsugu is not. Nothing more to say than that. Even in FSN, Shirou is far from the best character. This isn't inherently bad, though. |
| Gilgamesh is better then they both. But people just enjoy to follow badass mc's, especially girls. Kiritsugu is something like Levi, always calm, OP and deep character in general. |
Zekerets said: Phantomnocomics said: there were more than one translation for the FSN visual novel, one by mirror moon and the second by beast lair which was done by a Community instead of a staff and it's not a mis-translation, it's a literal translation, this was discussed years ago in beast lair in whether the literal translation were necessary or not, since everyone is a fan of fate in there and no one wants some no one's interpretation as the translation, they just left it literal it was nasu who wrote them, don't know where you got that from, but he's a shit writer when it comes to those scenes, hence the famous memes of Tsukihime thing is: edges are the same Fetish, they are for specific audiences, and not meant to be developed making whoever the character that inhabit them bland in nature, not good nor bad, they are just there like some curse and since shirou never developed his characters' flaws, he's a failure of character Maybe I got my info wrong but whatever, most writers are shit at writing sex scenes, just read Game of Thrones and see for yourself. Do you even know how linguistics work?You can't make a literal translation and expect it to make sense ever single time! You destroy the whole meaning of that phrase. You haven't provided a single argument as to why Shirou is a 'failure' as a character, you just quoted some shitty literal translation made by passionate amateurs. No one should call most writers bad at writing intimate scenes, as it's silly to think as such, it's just a case-by-case basis author wise and material wise, it just happen that nasu is not a Great screenwriter when it comes to this kind of stuff it's not a linguistic issue, if it was then the issue would be about the language's structure and their differences, which is not the case, and to prove the point, say i translate this from french to English : tu as raison = You have reason, which is a literal translation, writing wise, it makes sense if you are a french that is but if you are english it wouldn't because of a cultural barrier, so it's a cultural issue, ,if i were to translate it in an interpretative way, then it would be You are right instead of You have reason, case in point, there are some literal and interpretative translations that work writing wise but not culture wise and vice versa in a case-by-case basis. The people die when they are killed make sense writing wise and as a french, i don't see an issue with it, as you would say: les gen meurent quand eux sont tué, and i don't see an issue with in english, so don't be a nitpicky about it The Consumers of the product happen to be already invested in the Japanese culture therefore, the cultural barrier shoudn't be an issue, and it would only be for noob/newbies. i wrote why shirou is 101 just some posts above, you should really read and know what others are about before responding. Phantomnocomics said: as someone who read the original light novels for fate zero and played Fate stay night visual Character's motives Shirou and kiri are simply not comparable in the slightest Kiri believes that saving the majority justify not doing the same for the minorty shirou believes that his Life was saved for the exchange of others there might be a similarity in their beliefs but that's where it disappears, you see, shirou believes that for one to save another, they would have to sacrifice themselves, as without doing so, one cannot save the other while kiri, would never sacrifice himself for such a circumstance, instead, he believes that he should survive the cruelty so that he can conquer the world's evil in a sense saving everyone in the process,and he's willing to realize this ideal by any means spot the difference? point is, they are not even closely similar while being in the same medium, Shirou would never sacrifice someone for the sake of others' salvation, Kiri?, meh, he wouldn't even need to think about it, it's a see and do for kiri now, for their Personnality Shirou: well, he's not the most likable character in this regard,he has a misogynistic side that is so extreme that he would ask a servant to stop being a warrior because their gender/sex happen to be a female, even though the female servant can one shot him by the thought of it, the other negative side of him is his virgin shield, where he starts having pervert thoughts whenever he's near a fine female, be it a servant or humans, except taiga because may the Highter being witness, she might not be a female for all we know bonus: shirou says he adapted those behaviors from kiri, which is odd since he never showed such behaviors Kiritsugu: well, Kiri .....is an idealistic person who is closed to everything that is not a part of his ideal, at least till fate stay night. not the best writing but simple and project-able unlike someone, ahem shirou ahem and the last thing is their character development it's not a new thing that kiri developed to update his view of his ideal to realize how broken it is, which is a success, writing wise, while shirou never accepted that development and rather chose an alternative with the same ideal, kind of like trying to cheat fate in a sense, which is a failure character wise and coincidentally the point of UBW events and fate is not the center of the nasuverse, that would be Notes, the origin of the nasuverse, fate is simply the most popular. bonus: servant kiri is basically what Kiri would be if zero events wouldn't have happened. If You think the translation is shit just because it's literal and made by some amateurs, then i have some bad news for ya, Fate EX translation was made by an official staff and mis-translated interpretive-ly so, what's the characters actual dialogue and what is translated are not even close majorly so, guess the literal translation made by some passionate amateurs was better than some interpretive translation made by an official staff. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and there is no such thing as a failure character without mentioning what it is being a failure about, you shouldn't have responded to my comment without asking this important question, Shirou is not a failure character if he is being shirou but when you compare shirou at being kiri in terms of flaws that's where he becomes a failure character, note: also ''according to popularity is a fallacy'', and the edges = fetish were about your comment about them being a personal trait where i state that they are simply not something that can be consumed by a universal audience, and Yes, i understand he was written to be broken like that, but not fixing it is also my points in the discussion May the highter being witness for i have wrote more than i thought. from an ancient fate fan. |
PhantomnocomicsNov 16, 2018 12:26 PM
| See, this is kind of a frustrating question for me. Personally, I find Kiritsugu a more interesting character than Shirou, just because he actually follows through on his utilitarianism. I always like characters who do wrong but necessary things, and don't refuse to face up to the moral reality. I also like characters who find cheaty ways around problems to make up for their lack of power (see also: Assassination Classroom). In comparison, Shirou's ideals are complicated and inconsistent, and not helped by the fact that they change from route to route. Basically - Nasu isn't nearly as good at writing philosophy as Urobuchi is. So we get pages and pages of navel-gazing with Kirei, where even just a basic bit of ethics teaching would reveal it all as fluff, and Shirou just accepts it all as fact. So really, Kiritsugu is in fact the more interesting character. The problem is that people seem to be disliking Shirou for the wrong reasons, and that bothers me. It's understandable if they haven't read the VN, because Shirou really doesn't make the jump to anime well, but it really is a shame. Cutting out the narration means you miss out on his inner thoughts, which take him from a bland MC into a snarky, complex badass. People complaining about the 'people die when they are killed' bit especially annoys me, because that's not the whole quote. It's followed immediately after by, "that's the way it should be", because Shirou's recovered from a fatal wound and he's commenting on how that crap ain't right. TL;DR - Kiritsugu is more interesting to me, but the amount of Shirou-bashing in this thread makes me want to defend him anyway, because people aren't working with a full picture of the character. |
Zekerets said: Phantomnocomics said: -shirou never accepts that his ideal is a failure even though it's an Objective Fate -not all ideals fail to be realized -kiri does not want to save everyone, he wants to conquer the world's Cruelty and control it so no one cause others to suffer anymore kind of a villain, but again, he is a villain. -i have never seen someone call a villain edgy before, i'm amused, so, are all villains edgy now?, well, what a fate. Shirou admits his ideals are impossible several times, including his final clash with Archer. He just doesn't give a shit since he is the quintessential shonen MC only until he has tremendous character development in the Heaven's Feel route as part of his deconstruction. You have a very distorted idea of what a villain is, Kiritsugu is not a villain by any stretch of the imagination, if that were the case it would destroy the entire point of his character. Kira from Death Note is a villain in the true sense of the word, not Kiritsugu. i don't want to talk about other shows since that would be off-topic, but you can't not be a villain and do villainous acts, it's an Oxymoron. in other words: the means doesn't justify the ends he doesn't give up in his ideals in HF, you clearly haven't played the VN if you think that, his character was is still the same, personality wise, only His stat is what was changed, hence why it's HF shirou is the most developed, in a sense |
Maurice_5 said: See, this is kind of a frustrating question for me. Personally, I find Kiritsugu a more interesting character than Shirou, just because he actually follows through on his utilitarianism. I always like characters who do wrong but necessary things, and don't refuse to face up to the moral reality. I also like characters who find cheaty ways around problems to make up for their lack of power (see also: Assassination Classroom). In comparison, Shirou's ideals are complicated and inconsistent, and not helped by the fact that they change from route to route. Basically - Nasu isn't nearly as good at writing philosophy as Urobuchi is. So we get pages and pages of navel-gazing with Kirei, where even just a basic bit of ethics teaching would reveal it all as fluff, and Shirou just accepts it all as fact. So really, Kiritsugu is in fact the more interesting character. The problem is that people seem to be disliking Shirou for the wrong reasons, and that bothers me. It's understandable if they haven't read the VN, because Shirou really doesn't make the jump to anime well, but it really is a shame. Cutting out the narration means you miss out on his inner thoughts, which take him from a bland MC into a snarky, complex badass. People complaining about the 'people die when they are killed' bit especially annoys me, because that's not the whole quote. It's followed immediately after by, "that's the way it should be", because Shirou's recovered from a fatal wound and he's commenting on how that crap ain't right. TL;DR - Kiritsugu is more interesting to me, but the amount of Shirou-bashing in this thread makes me want to defend him anyway, because people aren't working with a full picture of the character. shirou is not a badass in the VN, he's still bland. and his character is not air-friendly hence why they cut his inner thoughts, and you don't have to adapt the inner thoughts as a one to one ratio, you can adapt them like having him react to sakura noticing that he's checking her body out which is the same him thinking of her body in a pervert way and shirou ideals are un-necessary complex, the idea of one having to sacrifice oneself for the sake of other is broken. unlike kiri's ideal which is realistic and project-able sure, there are a lot of bashing in shirou, but this is because this is FSN, he got his right development afterward and hence why everyone loves fate kaleid and fate hallow ataraxia |
| you k HsiuqsYgnops said: Comic_Sans said: No idea, I find both of them to be boring ass fucks. Kotomine master race Finally, a proper answer. I never could have thought of that. You're a genius fam. Kotomine best grill. but Shinji > kotomine, everyone knows that if you think about it, it's always 3 options dialogue wise in the VN, and there are 3 routes, coincidences, i don't think so! |
| but the actual question: female Emiya when? |
| He doesn't suck, it's simple as that. |
One Piece episode 914 & 915 & 1027 were a mistake and 957 brought the salvation - FMmatron |
Zekerets said: Phantomnocomics said: never thought of kiri as a DARK hero, sure, he does some heroic stuff sometimes, but not out of choices and all come as incidental, he's more of a villain, and popularity does not mean quality, if it was the reverse, kirito sama would be the Best MC Archetype of all time and of course, kiri is not better, deeper, mature, than shirou a sexually oversensitive teen with an over the top misangony side whose ideal is to save EVERY-one, be it forcefully or willingly, in all-times vs an asexual adult with an equalizer kill for both genders whose ideal is just to stop people from suffering from the world's cruelty i guess Arguments and facts mean nothing because obviously Your WORD is objective, who am i to defy such a thing? MUH MISOGYNY HURR DURR. Are you a feminist by chance? What is this, Tumblr? If you have time to response to someone else comment, why not yours? i will just step up my game then: SHIROU is a SEXIST and why does it matter whether someone is or is not exactly as it is off-topic?, or could it be that i simply triggered you somehow? |
| Oh god, this is going to be another F/Z secondary vs VN reader thread... |
 |
Kerylon said: Oh god, this is going to be another F/Z secondary vs VN reader thread... it is forbidden for I to state it, but i'm the future, and you were right, it did turn into a Fate zero vs FSN visual novel |
HsiuqsYgnops said: Phantomnocomics said: you k but Shinji > kotomine, everyone knows that if you think about it, it's always 3 options dialogue wise in the VN, and there are 3 routes, coincidences, i don't think so! Shinji is a piece of shit fam. He should have died in ubw. don't be too harsh, he might be possibly the worst male character ever written but he's . . . .just a ....a victim, in a sense, so, why not praise a victim for being such a thing? Shinji route should have been a thing, not having the option is possibly the worst sin FSN ever did |
| I mean, considering Shirou Emiya is my #1 hated character in anime... It would be hard to be worse than him. Then there is also the fact that Kiritsugu is mainly known for F/Z and Urobutcher is a much better writer than Nasu is. It is the only part of the franchise that I actually like. And for those who think 'everyone who hates on Shirou has not read the VN', the answer is no. My first exposure to F/SN was through the VN and it was absolutely horrible. There is nothing more annoying than Shirou and his attitude towards Saber on Fate route and in UBW he pulled some massive garbage deus ex machina powers from his butt. I actually hate anime Shirou much less than his VN counterpart because I don't need to listen to his ridiculous inner monologues all the time. And yes, this does include Shirou from DEEN adaptation. |
NthDegree said: I mean, considering Shirou Emiya is my #1 hated character in anime... It would be hard to be worse than him. Then there is also the fact that Kiritsugu is mainly known for F/Z and Urobutcher is a much better writer than Nasu is. It is the only part of the franchise that I actually like. And for those who think 'everyone who hates on Shirou has not read the VN', the answer is no. My first exposure to F/SN was through the VN and it was absolutely horrible. There is nothing more annoying than Shirou and his attitude towards Saber on Fate route and in UBW he pulled some massive garbage deus ex machina powers from his butt. I actually hate anime Shirou much less than his VN counterpart because I don't need to listen to his ridiculous inner monologues all the time. And yes, this does include Shirou from DEEN adaptation. i can't believe it, but this, so much this, can we vote this for the best answer for this thread, yet? |
HsiuqsYgnops said: Phantomnocomics said: don't be too harsh, he might be possibly the worst male character ever written but he's . . . .just a ....a victim, in a sense, so, why not praise a victim for being such a thing? Shinji route should have been a thing, not having the option is possibly the worst sin FSN ever did No. The worst ever sin in f/sn is not punching shinji in hf when you're given the option to. Shinji be Shingi, a struggler to the end of time, wasn't his countless deaths enough for you, you monster! note: it should have been more than just a punch as death is the standard for shinji and fate |
HsiuqsYgnops said: Clearly Kiritsugu is more popular because he's naturally the kind of character that most random people tend to like. You have to be a certain type of person to like and understand shirou as a character. nothing is an all-bad or an all-good, but shirou is majorly bad and that's the point, lad |
HsiuqsYgnops said: Phantomnocomics said: nothing is an all-bad or an all-good, but shirou is majorly bad and that's the point, lad Hmmm... I understand you don't like shirou and you'll praise anyone who dislikes him too, k. Now, I have my own reasons to like shirou that you wouldn't understand, because you probably think differently than me. Not sure what you mean by all-bad all-good, fam. I'm certain Shinji's all-bad if that's the case. would it surprise you if i say that i actually like shirou? and we are both in the same page, Shinji = all-bad |
| kiritsugu was a much more entertaining character in a much more entertaining anime, he was a big reason why I liked f/z as much as I did, but hey at least shirou isn't as bad as rin... |
HsiuqsYgnops said: Phantomnocomics said: would it surprise you if i say that i actually like shirou? and we are both in the same page, Shinji = all-bad ok a second ago you called me a monster or something for wanting shinji to die I think... we are both monsters, lad, i wished him death more than a punch below that, lad and Shinji is so BAD at BEING BAD that's he's not BAD anymore, he's something else. and here is your wish just another day of Shinji's typical life |
| Wrong question. Kiritsugu doesn't need to be interesting at all to surpass Shiro in popularity. Shiro sucks. |
impossablank said: kiritsugu was a much more entertaining character in a much more entertaining anime, he was a big reason why I liked f/z as much as I did, but hey at least shirou isn't as bad as rin... Rin was Only Noisy because she wasn't the MC |
| This is myanimelist not VNDB or mylightnovellist. Though light novels are on this site, the majority of people watch anime. So it's not rocket science as to why Kiritsugu is more popular. And VNs aren't even on this site, so of course not a lot of people understand Shirou's character all that well. Anime: Kiritsugu > Shirou VN/LN Shirou > Kiritsugu |
Spades said: This is myanimelist not VNDB or mylightnovellist. Though light novels are on this site, the majority of people watch anime. So it's not rocket science as to why Kiritsugu is more popular. And VNs aren't even on this site, so of course not a lot of people understand Shirou's character all that well. Anime: Kiritsugu > Shirou VN/LN Shirou > Kiritsugu LN/AN kiri > shirou VN/AN thought of fixing it for ya, and what you said was already mentioned and deemed wrong |
Phantomnocomics said: Spades said: This is myanimelist not VNDB or mylightnovellist. Though light novels are on this site, the majority of people watch anime. So it's not rocket science as to why Kiritsugu is more popular. And VNs aren't even on this site, so of course not a lot of people understand Shirou's character all that well. Anime: Kiritsugu > Shirou VN/LN Shirou > Kiritsugu LN/AN kiri > shirou VN/AN thought of fixing it for ya, and what you said was already mentioned and deemed wrong yes, it certainly was mentioned before. and will be mentioned again, if not in this thread than in another |
Spades said: Phantomnocomics said: LN/AN kiri > shirou VN/AN thought of fixing it for ya, and what you said was already mentioned and deemed wrong yes, it certainly was mentioned before. and will be mentioned again, if not in this thread than in another and so the universe did, doing an eternal Punishment for Having fate to exist |
Phantomnocomics said: well, Fate kaleid shirou and FSN shirou are not the same shirou, so......and the topic is about FSN shirou. in HF, he's quite OP but that doesn't mean make him a cool character nor does it change his flaws as a character, it Only means the plot was character convenient than even UBW. What's people problem i mean if the character is op they have a problem with it and if they are a loser then they also talk shit about him. |
Congintive said: Phantomnocomics said: well, Fate kaleid shirou and FSN shirou are not the same shirou, so......and the topic is about FSN shirou. in HF, he's quite OP but that doesn't mean make him a cool character nor does it change his flaws as a character, it Only means the plot was character convenient than even UBW. What's people problem i mean if the character is op they have a problem with it and if they are a loser then they also talk shit about him. Well, lad, OP is just Power going over mode, it doesn't matter whether someone has the Power or not, what matters is WHO HAS IT, don't be bothered about it. Shirou is not a loser by any means, heck, if he was a real life character, he would be be one of the luckiest and most successful teen males for all the things he has, top archer at school, close friend to a lot of top tier girls in his school, close friend to the student council president and a close friend of the honor student, and a relative of the school most beloved teacher,lives alone in a grand mansion, and cute girls come visit him regularly and he's a cook, if that is not husbando material, i don't know what is the issue is not Shirou's stat, it's his character traits, he's a sexist even if it's arguable whether his sexism is Good or bad? and idealist, face it, he has a broken ideal [ Long story short: Shirou character traits are incompatible with FSN events Bonus: Liking saber makes you Gay and that's the truth!. lad |
| Why? Because people tend to idolize "tragic" and edgy characters easily. Also I fucking laugh every time someone says that they identify with Kiritsugu???? I guess they killed their own father, mentor and mostly everyone in their life lmao. The ironic thing is that everything that Shirou is as adult, is thanks to Kiritsugu, he built Shirou like that. Kiritsugu never wanted Shirou to be a Magus and he wanted him to have a normal life, he barely teach him magic just because he thought it might be useful. People say Shirou has "PLOT ARMOR" but ironically that "PLOT ARMOR XDXD" Is given to him by Kiritsugu putting Avalon inside Shirou body. And people saying Shirou is bland didn't paid enough attention to UBW at least ( because of course there's no edgines xDXDXD ), because Shirou is one of the saddest characters in fate. He doesn't believe he deserves to be happy because that's a privilege he lost, or even to live considering he couldn't save anyone in the fire, and worse, being the only survivor. Or how he suffers seeing Illya being killed by Gil and cries when Rin and himself have to bury her. I don't believe Kiritsugu and Shirou are different at all, they just have different ways and actually the same goal, to save people. About Emiya Assassin, it's an interesting part of Kiritsugu, and sadder than the real one, since he never met Iri and he kept in his rampage of killer and the counter force just made him a guardian to keep doing what he was best at, killing. |
| Mature man, making mature decisions and behaving maturely. That's it. |
Hatred said: because kiritsugu didn't say "people die if they are killed" And because he said that we're now shiting on him for saying that while ignoring other facts. |
Hatred said: Congintive said: And because he said that we're now shiting on him for saying that while ignoring other facts. yeah isn't that shiro as your avatar?biased Well, in case ur blind I think he's Shirou. |
Phantomnocomics said: well, Fate kaleid shirou and FSN shirou are not the same shirou, so......and the topic is about FSN shirou. in HF, he's quite OP but that doesn't mean make him a cool character nor does it change his flaws as a character, it Only means the plot was character convenient than even UBW. Urgh, it gets even worse than UBW in HF? I dropped reading the VN at the beginning of HF because I hated the previous two routes and could not take more of the same garbage. Plus, having some extended wet dream at the beginning was not exactly the most tasteful start there is. But yeah, if his power inflation gets even worse in HF, I'm glad I made the choice... HeroicIdealism said: Because Fate/Zero is the only great anime of the Fate franchise, and anime is more popular than VNs. Phantomnocomics said: If you have time to response to someone else comment, why not yours? i will just step up my game then: SHIROU is a SEXIST and why does it matter whether someone is or is not exactly as it is off-topic?, or could it be that i simply triggered you somehow? How the fuck is Shirou sexist? Because he wants to save everyone, including Saber, who is (on the outside) just a beautiful young girl who is fighting against disturbingly monstrous servants? Ffs, man, Shirou doesn't even force women in the kitchen or anything, in fact, if he had it his way, he would have been the only one cooking, but Sakura insisted on cooking for him. Shirou's sexism is the most blatant in Fate route of the VN. There he constantly keeps telling Saber that she should not fight because of her gender. Saying that you should not do something simply because of gender is the textbook definition of sexism. In Shirou's case it's not only sexist but also idiotic, since Saber is much stronger than he is, so it just makes it doubly infuriating. |
NthDegree said: Phantomnocomics said: well, Fate kaleid shirou and FSN shirou are not the same shirou, so......and the topic is about FSN shirou. in HF, he's quite OP but that doesn't mean make him a cool character nor does it change his flaws as a character, it Only means the plot was character convenient than even UBW. Urgh, it gets even worse than UBW in HF? I dropped reading the VN at the beginning of HF because I hated the previous two routes and could not take more of the same garbage. Plus, having some extended wet dream at the beginning was not exactly the most tasteful start there is. But yeah, if his power inflation gets even worse in HF, I'm glad I made the choice... HeroicIdealism said: Because Fate/Zero is the only great anime of the Fate franchise, and anime is more popular than VNs. How the fuck is Shirou sexist? Because he wants to save everyone, including Saber, who is (on the outside) just a beautiful young girl who is fighting against disturbingly monstrous servants? Ffs, man, Shirou doesn't even force women in the kitchen or anything, in fact, if he had it his way, he would have been the only one cooking, but Sakura insisted on cooking for him. Shirou's sexism is the most blatant in Fate route of the VN. There he constantly keeps telling Saber that she should not fight because of her gender. Saying that you should not do something simply because of gender is the textbook definition of sexism. In Shirou's case it's not only sexist but also idiotic, since Saber is much stronger than he is, so it just makes it doubly infuriating. Subarashi, truely impressive and amazing that i feel like crying, as expected from a umineko fan! what the umineko fan said, and liking saber makes you Gay, true story |
| btw, could a mod move this to one of the fate subs, dont need this garbage series in general discussion |
| Isn't Shirou Emiya just the main character of Fate/Stay Night? I am not sure if the whole Fate/ franchise has a main character since it has many different series such as Fate/Grand Order, Fate/Apocrypha, Fate/Extella and each have their own characters. |
Elfezen said: Isn't Shirou Emiya just the main character of Fate/Stay Night? I am not sure if the whole Fate/ franchise has a main character since it has many different series such as Fate/Grand Order, Fate/Apocrypha, Fate/Extella and each have their own characters. shirou is the MC for fate hallow ataraxia, and fate stay Night. as for FGO, they have their own Femc and MC. different MC for Fate apo and Fate/EX has its own Femc and MC the discussion is about fate zero MC vs fate stay night MC in terms of character development |
| Because Shirou's idealism and whiteknighting(telling saber not to fight is like wtf, one quick look at the siuation tells you she's more suited for that kind of work than he'll ever be), gets really annoying while Kiritsugu is more of a cool martyr. Also, UBW shirou is so over the top that it hurts seeing him beat Gilgamesh out of his ass. |
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Aemnesias said: Because Shirou's idealism and whiteknighting(telling saber not to fight is like wtf, one quick look at the siuation tells you she's more suited for that kind of work than he'll ever be), gets really annoying while Kiritsugu is more of a cool martyr. Also, UBW shirou is so over the top that it hurts seeing him beat Gilgamesh out of his ass. if you thought UBW made a joke out of gilgamesh, wait for HF where his character is basically a joke and while his whiteknighting is obnoxious, it's motive is even worse, sexism to a freaking servant, hilarious! |
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