Should Chinese "Anime" be removed from MAL?

hazecloud said:


I don't like you, so maybe try to make me to accept your existence first.

-Funland- said:

damn. Didn't know some members of the MAL community were as sensitive as 12 year olds.

hazecloud said:


Looks like you have nothing to say about your life. I thought it's going to be a fun story. Eh.

-Funland- said:

damn. Didn't know some members of the MAL community were as sensitive as 12 year olds.

-Funland- said:

Your idiocy really knows no bounds eh? Keep on amazing me kid.

CHC said:
Well in fact chinese and korean studios and freelancers are already doing almost 50% of the job in anime production through outsourcing. Some recent shows are even sponsored by chinese companies. I don't think anime can still be nationally-defined in near future because China and Korea already have all the technique they need to make decent anime that looks just like the Japanese ones. There probably will be more co-production between japanese and chinese companies because of the huge chinese market.

Heldengeist said:
If US shows like Avatar and Boondocks are left out because they are not Japanese, it's hypocritical to include Chinese anime-knockoff trash.

AnimePixelz said:
Why should Chinese Anime be removed when we have these varieties in the manga section for MAL?

Plus, I enjoyed a lot of King's Avatar and definitely will watch season 2 of it. The animation, art style, character development and plot was superb in my opinion.

Baka_phnx said:
I haven't seen any Chinese anime, are they even good?? Is there something interesting enough to watch.??

Heldengeist said:
@Pullman
That doesn't mean I should care. Guidelines can be wrong from the start.

And I don't think hypocrisy means what you think it means.

pretending to be what you are not, or pretending to believe something that you do not:

If US shows like Avatar and Boondocks are left out because they are not Japanese, it's hypocritical to include Chinese anime-knockoff trash.

If US shows like Avatar and Boondocks are left out because they do not fit the guidelines, it's hypocritical to include chinese anime-knockoff trash (that does fit the guidelines).

Older_than_dirt said:
The main thing I'm getting from this thread topic and a fair portion of the posts, is there are people feeling butthurt that some animated show they like isn't, and likely won't be, added to the database.
Calling for the removal of any show they don't recognize as anime according to their own criteria just comes across as kids throwing a tantrum for not getting what they want.

Do these people go on Walmart's website and make a fuss because CostCo carries a brand that Walmart doesn't?
Do they go to the Chevy dealership and complain because they don't sell new Fords?

So what if another website lists a show that MAL doesn't? There's likely some shows MAL lists that others don't.
Trying to say all the anime information sites have to be the same, is akin to saying everyone has to like/hate the same shows you do.

Now get off my lawn, and go have your tantrum somewhere else.

Pullman said:


I'm really curious what you think hypocrisy means then. Cambridge dictionary says:


which is what my understanding of the term has always been as well.

Now you said


which would indeed be hypocritical since you can't pretend to exclude stuff based on not being japanese, and then include non-japanese stuff. I just told you that Avatar or Boondocks are left out because they don't fit the guidelines, while Chinese and Korean animations do. So there is no 'being left out because they are not japanese', making your statement fallacious and the hypocrisy non-existing. The factually correct statement would be:



Which, unlike your first version, is not an example of hypocrisy.

So please do tell me what about that line of reasoning doesn't make sense to you or made you question my understanding of the term hypocrisy.

You not liking the guidelines as they are and thinking they are 'wrong' from the start (How can guidelines be wrong btw? They're just a decision that site owners can make for their site in whatever way they see fit. You not liking them =/= being wrong) is beside the point in that regard. You can't just call someone (or in this case a site) hypocritical by misrepresenting their actual reasoning.

But still, since you don't like the guidelines, can you tell me what the practical benefit would be of removing all the chinese and korean entries now that they are already here and the site has functioned by including them for at least a decade now and they are a part of many users lists?

I know that removing them would also remove some of the appeal and usability of MAL for everyone who already has them on their list like me, but what I don't see is how anyone else would have their MAL experience improved by it? Since this is not about whether or not the rules for chinese and korean animation should be implemented (they always have been and we can't time travel yet to change that in retrospect), but about undoing a decade worth of work in those areas, that's how the question should be asked. Is there anything to gain for the site by removing all these entries now and undo all the work that was put into them? I don't see any upside, but maybe you see something I don't.

-SP- said:

I actually agree with what ForestBalrog said, romagia linked some interesting threads which happen to backup the notion that mods are just being lazy. Well I don't exactly mean lazy since you brought up how much stuff they have to do, but the Chinese and Korean stuff just happened to be there before the guidelines were put in place. So would it not make sense to go back and fix what needs to be fixed so it matches the guidelines? Kineta the database mod said this
"For everyone who doesn't know, MAL has two major defining points of 'what' is anime:
1. Who created it.
2. Who they created it for.
The exact rule in the Anime DB Guidelines states that the Japanese staff needs to be involved in significant staff roles of the production. In other words, the animation cannot only be outsourced to Japan; Japanese staff must have some creative control over the final product."
With that being said the Chinese and Korean stuff don't have the " Japanese staff must have some creative control over the final product" part of it.

-SP- said:

You act like you actually read the replies which I doubt you did. Because if you had then you would know that the MAL staff contradicts the websites guidelines by having Chinese and Korean works. It's not so much as throwing tantrums but as to questioning the point of having guidelines if the mods themselves aren't going to follow them.

Older_than_dirt said:


Some members of the MAL community ARE 12 year olds. You've had an account here for almost a year so this shouldn't surprise you.

As for the Junior Butthurt Brigade, they'll eventually learn that people's existence isn't dependent on their acceptance.

Older_than_dirt said:

Yeah, I've read pretty much every reply in this thread.

Quoting Kineta from a 2007 post ( https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=515957 )

Section I: Anime Additions

1. The following entries are allowed in the anime database:

Professionally produced, animated works created:
in Japan for the Japanese market;
in Korea/China for the Korean/Chinese market;
as a joint production between Japan/Korea/China and another country.
Note: This does not include productions where only the animation is outsourced.

SINCE 2007

So where's this contradiction you speak of? Allowing Chinese/Korean anime in the database has been around since 2007.

If you find an animated work that fits within the established guidelines but yet the mods won't add it, I'll be plenty happy to jump on your soapbox with you.

WillSnK said:
We can put it like:

Anime= Eastern
Cartoon= Western

Problem Solved

-Funland- said:
I only started following the forums a month ago but yes, I definitely see some members acting like 12 year olds. I have no idea how the discussion got to the topic of existence and got blocked because I asked him why he said tencent was a bad company. That's taking butthurt-ness to a whole new level. Is he mad because I questioned what he said?

-SP- said:

I knew someone would bring that up. The post I quoted was from a reply by Kineta in 2017 so more recent and the Chinese stuff doesn't match the criteria which I listed in my original reply to you.

-SP- said:

I knew someone would bring that up. The post I quoted was from a reply by Kineta in 2017 so more recent and the Chinese stuff doesn't match the criteria which I listed in my original reply to you.


No because Anime is a Japanese term and Chinese works have their own term. Also how would you classify co-productions made by Western and Japanese studios?

Older_than_dirt said:


Please link the post you quoted so it can be read in context.
To me, it looks like Kineta was referring to joint ventures where the animation was outsourced to Japan, and that was the only Japanese involvement.

WillSnK said:

I thought i had made it clear, but i mean how you can put the MAL database logic.

Older_than_dirt said:


Hard to say.
It's easy to misunderstand text, especially if there's any form of translation between languages.
If you can't see body language, facial expressions or hear vocal inflections, something meant in jest could easily be taken the wrong way.
The only one that can really answer your question, is the one you're speaking about.
The rest of us can only guess.

-SP- said:

https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1668815&show=50#msg52578762

-Funland- said:
Oh shit. Never considered that he might be using a translator. But, a quick glance at his profile comments show that he is somewhat proficient in english so I highly doubt he's using Google translate or something.

Older_than_dirt said:


Thanks.
After reading that thread, I still stand by my interpretation that Kineta was referring to joint venture anime with Japan, since that was used as (part of) the arguing point for why the show should be added.
Kineta wasn't implying that the criteria used for that case/thread was the only criteria of MAL.
Kineta says MAL has two major defining points (not just two defining points), which implies there are also minor defining points.

In joint ventures Japanese staff must have some creative control, which Kineta addressed, and explained why that criteria wasn't fulfilled.
Outside of joint ventures with Japan, purely Chinese and Korean works meet criteria specified back in 2007.

So until there is a revision of DB criteria, or more solid evidence is found that proves a show to fit in the guidelines, it not getting added to the DB is not a contradiction.





He probably isn't using a translator, that was just one possible way text can be misunderstood.

-SP- said:
Those are assumptions for the most part, I will take what Kineta said as a direct interpretation.

-SP- said:
Kineta's reasoning for why Neo Yokio was not included into the database was also as a result of her own speculation and assumptions, She claimed this "Furuhashi needed three people to revise his work? His storyboards were that bad? The final episode lists five people for storyboard revisions. So did Furuhashi and Nishimura really have any creative input to Neo Yokio's final product? Probably not." Notice the PROBABLY in the last line? That is pure speculation and poor reasoning as to why it's not included in the database. Like I had previously said this is just pure nitpicking.

I mean, I hated this dumb thing, but I wasted my time watching and now I wanna have it on my list as a shitty title to balance my score

Older_than_dirt said:

And that would be an assumption on your part, one that you think would help support your side of the issue.



You could be right, it very well could be speculations/assumptions on Kineta's part, with just as much possibility that those speculations are indeed correct.

This whole thread has mostly been pure nitpicking, and in cases like this one (although this seems to be more unique than other questioned entries), if there isn't enough solid evidence to overturn the original decision then nothing will change. DB administrators have the final say, and if any of us have a problem with that, there are other sites, nobody is forcing us to be here.

I don't avoid watching something just because it didn't make it into the MAL database, and just because I watched a show, I don't go around insisting it should be added.
For a show to have this much discussion about it being in the DB or not, people are not going to forget they've watched it.
If they won't forget they've seen it, then the only other main reason why people are clamoring for it to be added is just to pad their list/score.
(example quoted from that other thread)


With that comment, it's no longer about if the show actually qualifies as anime or not, it's about their score.
That's actually the gist I've been getting from this thread on the same subject.
People aren't arguing so hard for it because they honestly believe it to be an anime, they just want it added to the DB so they can add it to their list.

Timz0r said:
Never encountered "Chinese anime" before, but if you go far in history, China IS kinda Japan and visa versa, hence why weebs mock anime is just being "Chinese cartoons". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Bozzzz said:


While I don't know much about China-Japan ancient relations, I know you are wrong. It's been a long series of wars and sometimes Japan occupying parts of China.
Not to mention how different their cultures are (and religion).

I'd imagine it's the same as saying England is kinda France.

cipheron said:
It's all about that critical phrase "animated works created: in Japan for the Japanese market;"

The deciding factor for Neo Yokio seems to be that it *wasn't* released with a Japanese dub, therefore it was a work for a purely western audience but with Japanese input. That's why for example Supernatural The Animation is in here, but Neo Yokio is not.

The goal for the admins is to have as consistent a set of rules *as possible* because that just makes their lives easier. Otherwise, everyone and their dog would be creating petitions and protests asking "why not my series" for example quite a few of the old Batman cartoons could be added here if they drop the "for the Japanese market" thing, since they were animated in Japan.

Basically, there's no possible *objective* tweak to the rules that would allow *clearly* adding Avatar and Neo Yokio to the database without also incorporating hundreds and hundreds of other things nobody considers as anime.

And of course, the LAST things the admins will ever do is give in to "badgering" by fans of one particular show to make an "exception". That would be like giving in to terrorists and lead to a situation where the loudest and most obnoxious fans expect to have their favorite shows added on account of making themselves as big a nuisance to the admins as possible, until the admins give in. Would YOU give in to anyone, given how that would work?

Timz0r said:


Grasping readin is hard in today's society. Please don't take everything so literally, suger bun. I can say pretty much the same that Belgium is actully kinda The Netherlands and no-one really will bat an eye.

Bozzzz said:
Even if you didn't say it that seriously, might offend some.
Belgium and Netherlands isn't a good example, the border is just a painted line some places (so I've heard).

-SP- said:

I get that but that means the current system just seems like they are nitpicking. Like I previously said it should be either allow all or allow none when it comes to foreign works.

Platypus7 said:


The nitpicking is almost certainly just a policy of 'if unsure, don't add it to the database.' Innocent until proven guilty sort of thing.
I've not read every one of your posts but I don't think you've mentioned a valid reason why it should be all or none when it comes to including foreign works, that just seems like your personal opinion and nothing else. Japan, China and Korea are quite interconnected in terms of anime and manga and so long as all of a countries' anime is included I don't see why it can't just be a few. Making MAL only for Japanese animation is more 'pure' but seems extremely unnecessary.

-SP- said:

I have already mentioned plenty of reasons in my previous posts. One reason why it is nitpicking is because they don't follow their own guidelines and add what they feel like adding. For example Neo Yokio as a I mentioned in my previous posts is an American-Japanese co-production, So the Japanese did have involvement in it's creation. Although I hate the series, it is a perfect example as to picking and choosing what they do and don't want. Japan, China and Korea being interconnected really has nothing to do with this. China does not make Anime, it makes Dong Hua which is made for the Chinese audience.

-SP- said:

It wasn't just outsourcing Animation. The Japanese studios were responsible for PRODUCING the series. They also worked on the storyboards.

Kuma said:


so, who are those? which part they done other than outsource animation? is it significant? is it done in japan?

-SP- said:

Well if a Japanese studio is working on the storyboards, that aspect is obviously going to be worked in Japan. As for the significance I honestly couldn't tell you, I am no fan of the series, animation is a huge turnoff from the series so I don't know all the little details.

Kuma said:


lOl, so what's the point of this thread then? those 2 directors is only credited as supervisor, the animation is outsourched in japan and the rest production is done in america with american staff.... using neo yukio as argument is dumb, and not disqualified china and korean being here... neo yukio clearly doesn't fullfill the DB guideline... those korean and chinese animation do fulfill...