| (Blogged) Up for discussion. Excuse my English grammar. I am just writing what is on my mind. Don't expect much. First, I want to say just how awesome Fate/Zero (TV anime) is. For a show in 2011, this anime still gives me the wow factor everytime I went and rewatched it. The animation of Ufotable is as impressive as ever. The story and characterization had done many characters their justice despite this anime is adapting a four-volume lore-fess with just 50 episodes. As a fan of Type-Moon, I could not be more satisfied with this adaptation. I enjoy Fate, that is why I want everyone else to enjoy this series as much as possible. This why I made this post. Treat this more as an advice, despite it sound more like a warning. Fate/Zero should never be a newcomer's first entry to Fate (and to the rest of the Nasuverse). In short: Because Fate/Zero gives the worst possible impression to Fate as a whole. EX: It's ironic, don't you think? How could a 'really really good' adaptation be such a bad start? If you want to appeal newcomers, shouldn't you show the best of the best? It's funny because Fate/Zero is simply to damn good at its job, it was so good at its job it changes the entire identity of the series. To fully explain myself, I have to start from Fate/Stay Night, the original VN. Fate/Stay Night is a VN that was released in 2004, the appearance and appeal made itself a target audience of fans of Eroge/Galgame. While it does have (hilariously terrible) sex scenes, the actual purpose of the VN is just to tell an extremely compelling romance story. It has deep lore, it has a complex setting, it has hot blooded actions scenes. But in the end, the story is a romance story. Emiya Shirou is a broken kid, he stems his dream, ambition, and happiness mistakenly and unbeknownst to him from a broken man. Shirou then met Saber (Artoria), who was just as hopeless and broken as he is. The two soul mates understood each other and fall in love. (depends on the route of course). *The other two routes after Fate stack upon the story, and further develop the rest of the cast in the VN. Rin, Sakura, EMIYA, Kiritsugu, Kirei, etc all get their spotlight, their past, intentions, ambitions, feelings often became mysteries that would be revealed as the story goes. Much of this is lost in translation from an 800,000 words count VN to 24~48 Episode animes. So what do all these have to do with Fate/Zero? I am not going to talk about how the Zero spoils a bunch and whatnot because many before me had already made their voices heard. One thing many do skip upon is how Zero utter made a bad impression on Fate. Because Zero is a dark and gritty extremely action-packed anime. There is nothing wrong with that, this is, in fact, Zero's job. Zero was supposed to be a love letter to Fate fans who had completed Fate/Stay Night and had known all the lore and know the ultimate fate of the entire main cast of Fate/Zero. There is no mystery to be revealed as fans go into Zero, so how does this prequel entertain the fans? Actions scenes, boastful dialogues, charismatic characters, extreme dramatic irony. The extreme darkness of Zero is supposed to be in parallel with Stay Night, as Zero show what would happen if everything that could go wrong in a Holy Grail War, did go wrong. The nihilistic tendency and the dark deconstruction of the heroic ideal were supposed to contrast Stay Night's reconstruction of hope and the heroic ideal. The two together show what Kirisugu did wrong, and what Shirou did right. This is not just a bad impression, this is the worst impression. Because newcomers who watch Fate/Zero as entry point will likely enjoy Fate/Zero as a dark gritty anime. It is a good anime. Under such impression, when they try to experience Stay/Night with its long dialogues, drawn-out explanations, slower pace, became less tolerable. The romance, which supposes to be the core of the story, somehow became a nuisance. I rather have people start with deen's Stay Night. Really, truly. I rather pounce the fact that Fate Stay Night is mainly a romance story, more than just a humanoid pokemon/digimon battle. I rather endure people screaming at Shirou being dumb in deen's Stay Night, and calling deen is shit (despite other than the Shirou thing, it really is not.) than an exhausting conversation trying to explain the mistaken impression of Fate/Stay Night being not as ""good"" as Fate/Zero. Is this a rant?! This is a rant isn't it? Imagine me trying to explain to a few friends on this. Oh no, I then have to explain why Fate/Stay Night would never get an competent adapatation unless the anime has 150 episodes. |
| Don't start with Fate/Zero because the rest of the fate series is not as good. Great argument. Spoiler? They don't matter for good series. The deen version is the best Fate version anyway, better version than the VN too. The best advice is not to start the fate series at all. The least worst is watching only Fate/Zero. |
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| I'm not arguing which is better, I'm saying, when you dive into Fate, Fate is just a romance story, and Fate/Zero is just supplementary. I can almost guarantee that people who start with Zero will not like Stay Night, where people who start from Stay Night will like both equally. |
Kongen said: I can almost guarantee that people who start with Zero will not like Stay Night, where people who start from Stay Night will like both equally. Good that you say "almost". Because i can guarantee you that there are people that started with Zero (anime) and yet they still like FSN more. |
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| Too late. It was my intro and it was awful. Funny seeing this now since I tried watching it just a few days ago. |
| You shouldn't star with Zero because it has spoilers to Stay Night. Read Stay Night VN then watch Zero. The other Fate stuff I recommend to ignore - it's reaaly mediocre. |
Swagernator said: Kongen said: I can almost guarantee that people who start with Zero will not like Stay Night, where people who start from Stay Night will like both equally. Good that you say "almost". Because i can guarantee you that there are people that started with Zero (anime) and yet they still like FSN more. Yup, good thing I said "almost". I know they exist. |
zal said: Don't start with Fate/Zero because the rest of the fate series is not as good. Great argument. Spoiler? They don't matter for good series. The deen version is the best Fate version anyway, better version than the VN too. The best advice is not to start the fate series at all. The least worst is watching only Fate/Zero. Aha, that's where you're wrong. Prisma Ilya is obviously the best Fate. |
UrbanSpaceman said: You shouldn't star with Zero because it has spoilers to Stay Night. Read Stay Night VN then watch Zero. The other Fate stuff I recommend to ignore - it's reaaly mediocre. I don't think the spoiler is much of a problem, a good anime is a good anime, even for mystery, how a mystery plays out in itself is what makes the story great. What I'm saying is, the impression of mediocrity about other Fate anime materials immediately comes when one finishes Fate Zero, before they actually lay eyes on them. There is automatic bias. Brb said: zal said: Don't start with Fate/Zero because the rest of the fate series is not as good. Great argument. Spoiler? They don't matter for good series. The deen version is the best Fate version anyway, better version than the VN too. The best advice is not to start the fate series at all. The least worst is watching only Fate/Zero. Aha, that's where you're wrong. Prisma Ilya is obviously the best Fate. Just like how Negima is the best magical girl/boy show Mod Edit: Merged duplicated posts; please use the edit button. |
NexuFeb 26, 2018 5:49 PM
zal said: Don't start with Fate/Zero because the rest of the fate series is not as good. Great argument. Spoiler? They don't matter for good series. The deen version is the best Fate version anyway, better version than the VN too. The best advice is not to start the fate series at all. The least worst is watching only Fate/Zero. Not sure I agree with that statement about the Deen version, because both versions are damn terrible, but the rest of this statement is probably the most true thing that is going to be said on this thread. |
Brb said: Oh it has lolies, of course it's the best :)zal said: Don't start with Fate/Zero because the rest of the fate series is not as good. Great argument. Spoiler? They don't matter for good series. The deen version is the best Fate version anyway, better version than the VN too. The best advice is not to start the fate series at all. The least worst is watching only Fate/Zero. Aha, that's where you're wrong. Prisma Ilya is obviously the best Fate. It needed a bit of bondage and it could've won the AOTY crunchy awards :) |
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| I heard it's also because there are characters who are dead in Fate/Zero and are alive in Fate stay night unlimited |
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| This is one of the best Fate 'rant' I've ever seen! I so agree with kinda everything you said! I absolutely hate the Zero elitists who are so biased towards Zero that they don't bother watching the rest of the Fate/stay night series just because it's not 'dark' enough. They're the worst part of the fandom in my opinion. |
 Help, I'm hooked into the Fate series (not all) and am obsessed with Shirou x Saber! Also, forever hoping for a ufotable remake of the Fate route! |
Mikura39 said: This is one of the best Fate 'rant' I've ever seen! I so agree with kinda everything you said! I absolutely hate the Zero elitists who are so biased towards Zero that they don't bother watching the rest of the Fate/stay night series just because it's not 'dark' enough. They're the worst part of the fandom in my opinion. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions and are allowed to choose what they watch. If I like watching dark shows, am I not entitled to say that I don't want to watch Stay Night because it's not dark? Is it not fair that I choose not to watch something that doesn't quite fit my taste? And it's not like "dark" is a trait that elitists look for either - I'd know because I'm one of those people you'd probably call an elitist. |
Miraclezify said: Everyone's entitled to their own opinions and are allowed to choose what they watch. If I like watching dark shows, am I not entitled to say that I don't want to watch Stay Night because it's not dark? Is it not fair that I choose not to watch something that doesn't quite fit my taste? And it's not like "dark" is a trait that elitists look for either - I'd know because I'm one of those people you'd probably call an elitist. It is indeed a matter of opinion and I understand that some people just like dark shows but at the same time, it's a bit unfair that after watching Fate/Zero, the elitists just doesn't want to continue the story of the Fate series since Fate/Zero is a prequel to Fate/stay night. Don't you want to continue the story? Give it a try at least. (Unless you actually tried it but still didn't like it) Eventhough this is more towards the people who have watched Fate/Zero but haven't watched F/SN. I know that I'm kind of contradicting myself at this point since I understand the feeling of not interested in watching a certain anime but at the same time, I don't want people to end the anime's story or plot unfinished by finishing F/Z and not watching F/SN. It's a really complicated feeling... |
Help, I'm hooked into the Fate series (not all) and am obsessed with Shirou x Saber! Also, forever hoping for a ufotable remake of the Fate route! |
ZSTGL_IMA said: I heard it's also because there are characters who are dead in Fate/Zero and are alive in Fate stay night unlimited This isn't true at all. Everyone who dies in Zero stay dead in Stay Night. Saber being an exception for being re-summoned |
Kongen said: UrbanSpaceman said: You shouldn't star with Zero because it has spoilers to Stay Night. Read Stay Night VN then watch Zero. The other Fate stuff I recommend to ignore - it's reaaly mediocre. I don't think the spoiler is much of a problem, a good anime is a good anime, even for mystery, how a mystery plays out in itself is what makes the story great. What I'm saying is, the impression of mediocrity about other Fate anime materials immediately comes when one finishes Fate Zero, before they actually lay eyes on them. There is automatic bias. You don't have to compare other Fate anime with Zero to say that it mediocre. The first Fate anime I've watched was 2006 Stay night adaptation (it was even before I read the VN) and it was so terrible that I avoided Fate franchise for years until I watched Zero. So I think that the best way to break into Fate universe is starting with the best parts (Zero, VN) then if you'll like it you can go further to other stuff otherwise if your first Fate anime won't good enough - it just will can kill the motivation to continue. |
| What if I told you I watched Fate/Stay Night first because it was the only entry at the time and I didn't like it? And I still wont watch the entire fate franchise based on it and a movie I watched. It just isn't for me. |
The anime community in a nutshell.  |
Energetic-Nova said: What if I told you I watched Fate/Stay Night first because it was the only entry at the time and I didn't like it? And I still wont watch the entire fate franchise based on it and a movie I watched. It just isn't for me. Well, its true that when comes to bait Fate is more girl x girl oriented rather than male x male so i can understand it. Also there is more female than male characters in the series so yeah. For male x male fantasies is Fate truly a worst franchise. |
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Swagernator said: Energetic-Nova said: What if I told you I watched Fate/Stay Night first because it was the only entry at the time and I didn't like it? And I still wont watch the entire fate franchise based on it and a movie I watched. It just isn't for me. Well, its true that when comes to bait Fate is more girl x girl oriented rather than male x male so i can understand it. Also there is more female than male characters in the series. Keijo is better than Fate. *points to Keijo in my favorites*. Oniisama e is also in my favorites but I like drama. |
| The anime community in a nutshell. |
Swagernator said: Kongen said: I can almost guarantee that people who start with Zero will not like Stay Night, where people who start from Stay Night will like both equally. Good that you say "almost". Because i can guarantee you that there are people that started with Zero (anime) and yet they still like FSN more. And I'm one of them. I'm the type that is not bothered by spoilers so I don't really mind what order I watch Fate. TLDR |
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UrbanSpaceman said: Kongen said: I don't think the spoiler is much of a problem, a good anime is a good anime, even for mystery, how a mystery plays out in itself is what makes the story great. What I'm saying is, the impression of mediocrity about other Fate anime materials immediately comes when one finishes Fate Zero, before they actually lay eyes on them. There is automatic bias. You don't have to compare other Fate anime with Zero to say that it mediocre. The first Fate anime I've watched was 2006 Stay night adaptation (it was even before I read the VN) and it was so terrible that I avoided Fate franchise for years until I watched Zero. So I think that the best way to break into Fate universe is starting with the best parts (Zero, VN) then if you'll like it you can go further to other stuff otherwise if your first Fate anime won't good enough - it just will can kill the motivation to continue. This a dilemma for me when I had to recommend from Fate. I know deen verison was bad, but it at least characterized Saber correctly. I can't recommend the VN because, that would be me asking for people who just want to watch anime, read a book longer than the entire LoTR combined. But Zero is the worst, it is good, that why people will get a good impression of Zero instead of Stay Night, there is a preemptive bias: "Zero is about adult fighting the fight, Stay Night is just typical highschool harem" type of impression is the worst, because they would automatically hate Stay Night. Also Zero unintentionally has an effect of Saber bashing, newcomers: "Saber is an idealistic idiot that took her ideals to her grave", Fate fans: "Saber was a victim of circumstances" |
Energetic-Nova said: What if I told you I watched Fate/Stay Night first because it was the only entry at the time and I didn't like it? And I still wont watch the entire fate franchise based on it and a movie I watched. It just isn't for me. That is ok, I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying Fate/Zero gives bad impression |
| I can tell you that starting with Fate/Kaleid is the best option. The only haram option. |
 πππ«π«π π±π¬π²π π₯ πΆπ¬π², πππ«π±π¦π«' πΆπ¬π² π΄π¦π±π₯ ππ©π© πͺπΆ πͺπ¦π€π₯π± ______________________ |
| Everyone should start with visual novel |
Kongen said: , where people who start from Stay Night will like both equally. Speaking from experience, not true at all. I've started with FSN and thought it was mediocre as hell. Still went and gave F/Z a try and I loved it. But you can't expect people to continue after something not really good. Spoilers in zero are insignificant tbh and shouldn't impact the experience. And starting with something actually good like Zero is more likely going to make the person stay with the franchise, unlike watching the snoozefest Stay Night is. I am personally tired of 'its boring at first but gets better' bs people say about some series and that's what starting with Deen is, that might scare people away. Tbh, I would even go as far as saying F/SN is entirely skippable, and watching the superior UBW instead is enough. Speaking of the whole thing, I was reading the novel recently and Urobuchi in the afterword says he didn't expect/want people to start with Zero, but was actually glad his novel brought some people to the games and franchise as a whole. |
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| Everybody is FSN vs FZ and I'm just patiently waiting for Fate/Strange fake to be adapted into anime so I can say it's the best fate :> |
| I can speak from experience that you're completely right. I did start the Fate series with Zero, and it's still one of my favourite shows ever to this day. Afterwards I went straight into UBW and thought it was a boring slog by comparison. I never bothered looking into anything else Fate related because later on I realised I kind of hate this franchise. I did watch the first episode of Apocrypha when it came out though. That was a mistake I know my experiences won't translate for everyone though. I would agree with you OP to not start with Zero, but then again, it's the only part of the franchise that I don't think is crap |
Imaishi said: Kongen said: , where people who start from Stay Night will like both equally. Speaking from experience, not true at all. I've started with FSN and thought it was mediocre as hell. Still went and gave F/Z a try and I loved it. But you can't expect people to continue after something not really good. Spoilers in zero are insignificant tbh and shouldn't impact the experience. And starting with something actually good like Zero is more likely going to make the person stay with the franchise, unlike watching the snoozefest Stay Night is. I am personally tired of 'its boring at first but gets better' bs people say about some series and that's what starting with Deen is, that might scare people away. Tbh, I would even go as far as saying F/SN is entirely skippable, and watching the superior UBW instead is enough. Speaking of the whole thing, I was reading the novel recently and Urobuchi in the afterword says he didn't expect/want people to start with Zero, but was actually glad his novel brought some people to the games and franchise as a whole. I should have made myself clear, when say That Stay Night I meant, people from VN. I know deen is bad, and if you like FZ better than deen because of so I have no complaint. But likeing which is not the point of this post. I want people to start from Deen's because I rather have people hate Fate for all the right reason, than like Fate for all the wrong reason. |
| I really wish people would read their VN. I really do. Because reading the VN is the best way to get into Fate. If you read the VN, and it turns out that you don't like it. That is fine. Problem is that the VN is 800,000 word counts, more than three volumes of LoTR combined, generally, nobody would take that much effort to read and understand something unless they liked it from the beginning. People who starts from Zero generally never leave Zero, for all sorts of reasons of course, but generally is because they believed they had experienced the best Fate can offer (which is not), and rest of Fate (because they only watched the anime) is absolute shit because they can't experience what Zero did for them, because the rest didn't follow what Zero did. It's very hard to convince these people to even consider the source material, the VN, because how utterly lacking the rest of the animes are. That is why Deen is the best start. Because the show did Saber justice, and although Shirou was portrayed poorly, that is ok, because even in the VN you were supposed to grow to love or at least respect Shirou as he develops. It's just that Deen's Shirou never developed. The director clearly put all his efforts in Saber's development. Likeing and being interested in Saber can spark a better likelihood that people would be interested in the VN, or at least other materials at hand. Zero however completely bashes her. |
| Fate/Zero is a bad starting point, makes you believe anything else from the franchise is worth your time ;) |
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AndoCommando said: I've been had with Kara no Kyoukai :^)Fate/Zero is a bad starting point, makes you believe anything else from the franchise is worth your time ;) |
πππ«π«π π±π¬π²π π₯ πΆπ¬π², πππ«π±π¦π«' πΆπ¬π² π΄π¦π±π₯ ππ©π© πͺπΆ πͺπ¦π€π₯π± ______________________ |
Swagernator said: Energetic-Nova said: What if I told you I watched Fate/Stay Night first because it was the only entry at the time and I didn't like it? And I still wont watch the entire fate franchise based on it and a movie I watched. It just isn't for me. Well, its true that when comes to bait Fate is more girl x girl oriented rather than male x male so i can understand it. Also there is more female than male characters in the series so yeah. For male x male fantasies is Fate truly a worst franchise. Fate has like the best husbando bait tho wtf |
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| I'll give my very short story on how I was introduced to the Fate series: >Watched Fate/Zero >"BOOOORIIIIING" >Watched FSN:UBW >"Oh, now I got this concept of a Holy Grail War without falling asleep, thanks! It's overrated as hell but was enjoyable." >Re-watched Fate/Zero >"LOL, now this suddenly became interesting? What happened to my brain? Damn solid show with very engaging characters, dialogue and action" So yeah, I do agree with you by my own experience xD |
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| The best entry to the franchise are doujins tbh |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| F/SN VN isn't even the best chuunigasm material though. But still, Fate/Zero anime>Fate/Stay Night anime, any of them. The F/SN VN is indeed better, but stop the hate on people who like Zero pls, don't bully my Kirei :( And no, not only Zero subverts heroism, Heaven's Feel route did that too. UBW and Fate route indeed can be called to reconstruct it though. |
YouFeb 26, 2018 2:56 PM
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| I wouldn't say it gives the wrong impression, just that Fate/Zero is a lot better than all the other entries, and so you'll be disappointed when you watch the rest. I don't only prefer Fate/Zero over the rest because it's "dark and gritty" (though admittedly that is one reason why I like it), but rather because it has better writing, characters, and storytelling than the other entries. Though ultimately this is subjective. |
 What's the difference? |
| Moved from the Anime Discussion Board. |
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| best entry into fate series is f/go waste so much time and money with the gatchas you feel complied to become a fan of the series :^) winwin |
| Hottest Take Ever, fite me: Fairy Tail is better than Seiya, Bungou Stray and Hitman Reborn |
| Again, I'm not saying which is better. I'm saying which to start with. Watching Fate/Zero first because 'it is the best' is like watching Kara no Kyoukai 5 first and the only 5, because it is the 'best and everything else is shit so why bother'. |
| I kinda agree to this. I watched Fate/zero as my first entry to the Fate Verse. After watching the show, I thought the other fate shows would have a dark or somber theme. But I was wrong Because of this, I didn't really enjoy Fate/Stay night as much as I did Fate/Zero because of all the high expectations I had from watching Fate/Zero |
Finalfinish02Feb 26, 2018 7:21 PM
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