Feminism in Anime

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Jun 2008

25958

SuperRed said:
This thread is fucking stupid, and so is OP.

I'm not surprised since he is a known far-right loser.

Just to be perfectly fair...I'm extremely critical of Feminism and trust me, I'm nowhere near to the Right.

Hell, on CE, people there think I'm a Leftist "ShitLib".

Sep 17, 2017 4:27 PM

#155

metem_psychosis

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Jun 2016

190

I'm also curious where primal desires play a role in the feminism argument. Surely we all have them. Self-checking. I know some people have said feminism wont fix things like rape, groping, stalking. I mean, surely men stalk women way more than women do to men?? Isnt this enough basis to justify feminism that isn't SJW politics. I mean, I get there are women who will file law suits against men just for looking at them, but that's what feminism is supposed to address as well. Obviously throwing all men in prison isnt going to solve anything. But how common is this anyway?

Feminism is good for both men and women. It just happens to be called feminism because it's based off the fact that masculinity (which is the real source of the problem) has been inflated with arbitrary meaning more than femininity. Heck, maybe the movement should be renamed masculinism. Because the whole movement is about addressing male's unchecked primal desires. Not just rape, but also male/male competition. Usually a male who feels unsatisfied with himself against fellow men, will let out all his anger on a women.

Sep 17, 2017 4:32 PM

#156

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Jul 2018

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Aside for the fact that there are plenty of anime that advocate feminism and have strong female characters (like the studio ghibli movies), i don't think that any amount of complain will change the mind of Japan and they'll suddenly put """feminism""" (as intended in the west nowadays) into every anime.

You can just stop, it's not gonna happen, sorry :).

Sep 17, 2017 4:33 PM

#157

LoneWolf

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Aug 2009

8330

Clebardman said:

LoneWolf said:
Here comes Clebardcuck riding in on his white horse to save the asian m'ladies. Do you ever get tired of vilifying your own gender and pushing the women as victims narrative? Also have you even fucking been to Asia? Or do you have any Asian ancestry? Do you realize how retarded it looks like when you're telling someone from Asia about his/her country and don't even live there and are not part of the culture? Do you think they teach men that it's okay to rape girls in Japan? Wtf kind of alternate reality do you live in? Last time I checked rape was illegal in every fucking country no matter what the culture is. Unless the victims happen to be male prison inmates. People know that stealing is wrong too, it doesn't mean they're not going to steal shit. Teaching men not to rape is such a redundant thing to do and only feeds into their own retard ideology and assumptions about men as a whole.

Lol okay. The usual internet newspeak * derailling into "bwabwa men are raped in prison". I'm surprised you didn't use the word feminazi tbh, just to make sure you sound like the millions women-hating virgins who vented their sexual frustration online before you (oh, I can use shitty premade insults too :'c).

I could answer your post point by point but it'd get tiring soon and you're just here to fling shit, so how about you go drag your gender paranoia somewhere else? It's boring having to deal with you misreading, misinterpreting, misunderstanding everything and then ranting about your obsessions for hours. We get it, wiminz are bad, menz are good, and the world is perfectly binary and easy to understand. (and apparently mentionning women-only cars triggers you so hard I almost spit my coffee lol)

PS: you probably really think I hate mens, so lol again because of how dense you are.

PPS: (^:

It's funny how you do the exact same shit you accuse me of doing. Using meaningless overused insults that are not only false, but lack any real meaning or substance. I shouldn't be surprised that you lack any sense of self-awareness given how easily you draw lines in the sand. I call you a cuck, because your eagerness to throw men as a whole under the bus and elevate women. It describes you aptly while none of the slurs you used are accurate. You accuse me of having gender paranoia, yet you refuse to acknowledge your own obvious bias. I have no qualms about calling men out for being monsters when they're allowed to be. The difference is that men and women are treated differently by the legal system.

Men's negative behavior is routinely punished while women's is routinely ignored or downplayed. If murder was made legal tomorrow, I'd guarantee there would be a shit tonne and men and smaller amount of women going out tomorrow on a murder spree. The problem you have is refusing to admit women are capable of abusing the legal system to their own ends. Another problem you have is your lack of self-validation. All of your validation seems to come from women. Your reliance on their approval is sickening. You make yourself out to be some ally to women, but you're no different than the college dude bros who won't shut up about "smashing puss". You're one and the same deriving your worth and value from women.

I already know you have no real argument or points though. By all means keep flinging your lies and slander my way, because it makes you feel like a big man to talk shit and lie about people on an internet message board instead of actually engaging in debate.

LoneWolfSep 17, 2017 4:40 PM

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

Sep 17, 2017 4:37 PM

#158

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Jul 2018

564612

Don't talk about "meaningless overused insults" when you use cancerous terms like "cuck", dude

Sep 17, 2017 4:38 PM

#159

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Jun 2008

25958

Personally, my stance on Feminism is quite the negative one.

And I lean towards the left.

Modern day Feminism is a complete joke!

It's unecessary in the West and has brought a LOT of problems.

And yes, I understand "Not all" feminists are male-hating lesbians who want female superiority.

Yes, I understand that SOME of them are genuinely good people who really want equality.

The thing is...things are good as they are.

There ARE some privileges that males have over females...YES, this is true!

However, there are also some privileges that females have over males.

How many times do feminists talk about that? They are insanely inconsistent on this issue.

Sep 17, 2017 4:42 PM

#160

Pickled_Chips

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Jan 2017

125

Lol...
When you make one answer use the word "infest" and the other use "respect", what way are people suppose to vote? You should've at least made the poll neutral in the way it was written.

Sep 17, 2017 4:45 PM

#161

LoneWolf

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Aug 2009

8330

spuukiebuugi said:
Don't talk about "meaningless overused insults" when you use cancerous terms like "cuck", dude

I fully acknowledge that its an overused insult, but surely it holds meaning if it is true. Who knows it might be true in more ways than one, considering some of his beliefs. Also I get the word bothers you, but its weird how you freak out every time its used, especially considering that you're not and will never be the target. Words hold as much meaning as we give them. How are you different than the authoritarians that wan't to censor certain language based on their own sensibilities?

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

Sep 17, 2017 4:50 PM

#162

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Mar 2013

2900

I was originally confused as well, as anime like Gate are obviously political, and while I dislike the political scene, I do not think to be such an inherently bad thing, or something to be discouraged in the original sources.

Politics are just controversial ideas that are more often than not, are loosely related to governance, but usually lacks a requirement of how the government works, instead functioning as base social politics that only self proclaimed intellectuals obsess over.

I want ideas to be in the occasional anime I watch at the very least.

Sep 17, 2017 4:52 PM

#163

thewiru

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Feb 2014

923

PeripheralVision said:
I was originally confused as well, as anime like Gate are obviously political, and while I dislike the political scene, I do not think to be such an inherently bad thing, or something to be discouraged in the original sources.

Politics are just controversial ideas that are more often than not, are loosely related to governance, but usually lacks a requirement of how the government works, instead functioning as base social politics that only self proclaimed intellectuals obsess over.

I want ideas to be in the occasional anime I watch at the very least.

GATE doesn't go full political tho, most of it is just common sense like the fact the media lies and the conflicts between politics and morality.

Sep 17, 2017 4:58 PM

#164

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Aug 2007

1816

Considering so many female anime characters are seen as wish-fullfillment sex objects and objectified considerably, it's not a bad thing to have more feminist views in anime. It won't make any huge waves for quite some time though, as the industry is still dominated by men. And Japan's culture in general has a relatively low view of women and women's rights. A lot of men still see women as a babymaker and a housewife.

LoneWolf said:
How are you different than the authoritarians that wan't to censor certain language based on their own sensibilities?

She doesn't want to censor your words, she just thinks you're being obnoxious with your overuse of such a cringey word. And to be fair, it has gotten a little out of hand lately.

Sep 17, 2017 5:08 PM

#165

LoneWolf

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Aug 2009

8330

Hias said:

She doesn't want to censor your words, she just thinks you're being obnoxious with your overuse of such a cringey word. And to be fair, it has gotten a little out of hand lately.

The implication shes making with her constant protests is that I stop using the word completely right? Is that not censorship? Saying that I can't or shouldn't be using certain words, because she or in this case a small group of people find the term cringey. A good insult is good, because it gets a reaction out of people. Cuck tends to get a really good reaction out of not only the target, but even other unaffected people. Is that not a great insult then? In fact I would say in this current political climate and context it would be hard to find word out there that would get a better reaction. Like Carlin is saying you and her are both giving the word power and meaning.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

Sep 17, 2017 5:10 PM

#166

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Mar 2013

2900

thewiru said:

PeripheralVision said:
I was originally confused as well, as anime like Gate are obviously political, and while I dislike the political scene, I do not think to be such an inherently bad thing, or something to be discouraged in the original sources.

Politics are just controversial ideas that are more often than not, are loosely related to governance, but usually lacks a requirement of how the government works, instead functioning as base social politics that only self proclaimed intellectuals obsess over.

I want ideas to be in the occasional anime I watch at the very least.

GATE doesn't go full political tho, most of it is just common sense like the fact the media lies and the conflicts between politics and morality.

It seems more insidious with how it portrays officials who oppose the trek into the other world, or want clarity on the fight with the fire dragon. The officials shown were portrayed as politically biased anti-war doves, instead of having any genuine sympathy for those who lost their lives.

From my viewpoint, which may be irrational, the concerns being brought up seem completely rational and legitimate, yet the women who is "questioning" the JSDF's is portrayed as being self interested and biased for no end.

She most certainly is, but this falls into a fictional strawman. The writer is god, but ultimately subjected to his biases as readers like ourselves are. Fictional media shied away from irredeemably evil antagonists like Honest from Akame Ga Kill for such a reason, since it makes it far to easy to turn those views we dislike into fictional caricatures instead of beings obeying some rationale we find deluded.

In essence, the writer for Gate may have made the government official a self interested and biased moron in order to more effectively argue against people of similar sentiments, regardless of their moderate views, hence "political strawmen". Or he may have just viewed them in such a manner.

This is also apparent in episode 4, where President Trump desires to exert influence on Japan in order to explore the other side of the Gate, and the scene is done in a way to make it seems like Trump is wrong.

7 minutes later, in the same episode, a JSDF officer says the same thing, nearly verbatim, yet this is done to convince Itami that it is for Japan's best interest, and thus a beneficial action.

While Trump would have to go through Japan to exploit the other world, whereas Japan has no hoops to jump over, it seems that the exploitative nature of the expeditionary force is only brought up in a bad light because the president of the US wants to do it, versus Japan, which "needs" it or could benefit.

This is all just a manner of fair portrayals, honestly, same thing that plagues the media. To me, it seems Gate has too much of a dissonance between those who support the JSDF and those who question its legitimacy in its goals.

Odd as it sounds, I may support such an expedition, despite in an era after Bush' excursion is generally considered a bad idea. Not too sure of the politics of it, which is not my point, but from a base perspective, I would want justice in some form, and I cannot imagine doing nothing.

PeripheralVisionSep 17, 2017 5:16 PM

Sep 17, 2017 5:18 PM

#167

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Jun 2008

25958

Hias said:
Considering so many female anime characters are seen as wish-fullfillment sex objects and objectified considerably, it's not a bad thing to have more feminist views in anime. It won't make any huge waves for quite some time though, as the industry is still dominated by men. And Japan's culture in general has a relatively low view of women and women's rights. A lot of men still see women as a babymaker and a housewife.

Personally, I have no idea how Japan views genders and their roles, so I won't comment on that.

However, the reason anime sexualizes their characters so much is because the male demographic is so much higher than the female one.

This is simple Capitalism, and NOTHING on this planet sells better than sex...especially, sexy females.

But besides that...female oriented anime also sexualizes males.

Furthermore, many Shoujo anime present males to be very unrealistic, constantly catering to females and it's also wish fulfillment nonsense.

We guys typically don't care about this stuff because we got anime that does the same towards us.

I really don't see any of this as a problem.

All of this is fiction, and it's supposed to be entertaining and if Otaku want to be pondered to so they can buy a shit load of merchandise, that's exactly what Japan will do.

Sep 17, 2017 5:38 PM

#168

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May 2015

5397

Hias said:
Considering so many female anime characters are seen as wish-fullfillment sex objects and objectified considerably, it's not a bad thing to have more feminist views in anime. It won't make any huge waves for quite some time though, as the industry is still dominated by men. And Japan's culture in general has a relatively low view of women and women's rights. A lot of men still see women as a babymaker and a housewife.

LoneWolf said:
How are you different than the authoritarians that wan't to censor certain language based on their own sensibilities?

She doesn't want to censor your words, she just thinks you're being obnoxious with your overuse of such a cringey word. And to be fair, it has gotten a little out of hand lately.

Objectified? Wish-fullfillment? Lol, someone's triggered. I mean, they aren't even real.

Sep 17, 2017 5:44 PM

#169

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Aug 2007

1816

--ALEX-- said:
I really don't see any of this as a problem.

All of this is fiction, and it's supposed to be entertaining and if Otaku want to be pondered to so they can buy a shit load of merchandise, that's exactly what Japan will do.

If you don't see it as a problem, then I'm not really sure what to tell you. Of course sex sells and the major demographic of anime consumers are males. It's when women are perceived as trophies or objects of desire it becomes a bit of a problem. And yes, male characters can get the same treatment.

I personally would prefer characters to be more relatable and have character development and not just be walking tropes. But that's usually not the case.

Sep 17, 2017 5:49 PM

#170

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Aug 2007

1816

Kittens-kun said:

Objectified? Wish-fullfillment? Lol, someone's triggered. I mean, they aren't even real.

Awesome, here we go again. I remember you in another thread telling me that feminism is cancer, and then you proceed to use the typical "hyuck hyuck he's been triggered!!"

Do you even read what you're typing?

Sep 17, 2017 5:52 PM

#171

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Mar 2013

2900

To be fair, the problem one calls "objectification" seems to be the phenomenon known as "moe". Moe to me seems to be adding traits to a character that makes them seem absolutely adorable, endearing, or sympathetic, but as characterization, it hardly works other than to create flawless waifus and husbandos than human like characters, similar to how the idol industry works.

At least, that is how it seems to me, though to tell you the truth...I embraced moe. Not a criticism of anyone's political position, but a thought I had for a long time.

Sep 17, 2017 5:52 PM

#172

thewiru

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Feb 2014

923

Hias said:

Kittens-kun said:

Objectified? Wish-fullfillment? Lol, someone's triggered. I mean, they aren't even real.

Awesome, here we go again. I remember you in another thread telling me that feminism is cancer, and then you proceed to use the typical "hyuck hyuck he's been triggered!!"

Do you even read what you're typing?

Not like this answer didn't prove his point, though.

Sep 17, 2017 5:55 PM

#173

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Jul 2018

564612

When looking through this thread I realize how much smarter than most of you guys I really am... And I, by no means consider myself smart at all, makes me wonder what to think of you. It also proves to me why I hate both sides of the table with such a passion and why I've quit using any other board other than AD, with the exception of occasional post.

If there is one thing, one thing that I owe this topic and you people, it is that you stroke my ego. And you do so by reminding me that no matter how dumb I might be and no matter how low may I fall at times. I will still be a lot more reasonable than you guys. So thank you for being dumb, feminists and anti-feminists alike.

Sep 17, 2017 5:57 PM

#174

Kuma

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Mar 2015

47023

wow, i love you guys projecting your view, your problem, to japan assuming everything is same, whcih actualy has complitely has different situation... LMAO...

"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on."

Sep 17, 2017 6:06 PM

#175

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Aug 2007

1816

thewiru said:

Not like this answer didn't prove his point, though.

Whatever point he was attempting to make, it was pretty poor.

Sep 17, 2017 6:09 PM

#176

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Jun 2008

25958

Darek said:
When looking through this thread I realize how much smarter than most of you guys I really am... And I, by no means consider myself smart at all, makes me wonder what to think of you. It also proves to me why I hate both sides of the table with such a passion and why I've quit using any other board other than AD, with the exception of occasional post.

If there is one thing, one thing that I owe this topic and you people, it is that you stroke my ego. And you do so by reminding me that no matter how dumb I might be and no matter how low may I fall at times. I will still be a lot more reasonable than you guys. So thank you for being dumb, feminists and anti-feminists alike.

You're welcome?

Topics like this will never go away...at least not until it stops being mainstream, and unfortunately it is very much a huge social issue, especially in the West.

The same West that has granted women so many rights.

God forbid a Western feminist goes to the middle east where they are literally treated like second class citizens...

Oh but, women in the U.S earn $0.77 for every male $1...so clearly we NEED feminism.

Sep 17, 2017 6:22 PM

#177

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Jun 2008

25958

Hias said:

--ALEX-- said:
I really don't see any of this as a problem.

All of this is fiction, and it's supposed to be entertaining and if Otaku want to be pondered to so they can buy a shit load of merchandise, that's exactly what Japan will do.

If you don't see it as a problem, then I'm not really sure what to tell you. Of course sex sells and the major demographic of anime consumers are males. It's when women are perceived as trophies or objects of desire it becomes a bit of a problem. And yes, male characters can get the same treatment.

I personally would prefer characters to be more relatable and have character development and not just be walking tropes. But that's usually not the case.

Capitalism is a very simple concept.

Unless you can convince people to STOP buying so much anime merchandise involved with sex and then have the people who buy anime which is realistic and relatable at a much higher volume...

Then nothing is going to change!

Kinda off topic, but I work my ass off at my job...I work in finances.

In my company we offer loans to people...and one day in comes a 19 year old girl who works as a stripper.

She makes considerably more money than me per year.

Is it fair that I work a respectable job and I work very hard...and yet a 19 year old is taking her clothes off for a living and making more money in a job many wouldn't consider "respectable"?

The answer is YES, it is fair.

Because what she does has a very high demand...men are willing to pay a lot of money to watch her strip or get a lap dance, or whatever...

That's just the way the world works, and I don't lose sleep over it.

Sep 17, 2017 6:32 PM

#178

BatoKusanagi

Laughing Man

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Jun 2012

6684

Ugh, please no. We don't need any more moral busybodies making demands of authors and fans to pay attention to their eternal whining.

And some people here a bit confused: feminism =/= "strong" female characters, equality.

Sep 17, 2017 6:33 PM

#179

thewiru

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Feb 2014

923

Darek said:
When looking through this thread I realize how much smarter than most of you guys I really am... And I, by no means consider myself smart at all, makes me wonder what to think of you. It also proves to me why I hate both sides of the table with such a passion and why I've quit using any other board other than AD, with the exception of occasional post.

If there is one thing, one thing that I owe this topic and you people, it is that you stroke my ego. And you do so by reminding me that no matter how dumb I might be and no matter how low may I fall at times. I will still be a lot more reasonable than you guys. So thank you for being dumb, feminists and anti-feminists alike.

TFW to intelligent

--ALEX-- said:

You're welcome?

Topics like this will never go away...at least not until it stops being mainstream, and unfortunately it is very much a huge social issue, especially in the West.

The same West that has granted women so many rights.

God forbid a Western feminist goes to the middle east where they are literally treated like second class citizens...

Oh but, women in the U.S earn $0.77 for every male $1...so clearly we NEED feminism.

They actually don't, this came from a biased view on a certain study.
If women received less than men while doing the same job there would be no reason to employ men.

Sep 17, 2017 6:57 PM

#180

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Jun 2008

25958

@thewiru...Yeah, I know.

I was being sarcastic because most reasonable people understand the "wage gap" is bullshit and misleading.

The key word is "earn".

Men EARN more money because they tend to work longer hours, take fewer days off, don't go on maternity leave, and negotiate their salaries more aggressively than women.

It's all very easy to understand...unless you're a disingenuous feminist.

Sep 17, 2017 7:24 PM

#181

sasukefan2002

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Sep 2017

66

i havent really noticed any politics or feminism in anime
but that might just be because ive only watched like 6 animes

Sep 17, 2017 7:47 PM

#182

Elyts

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Jan 2015

7410

I don't know what kind of propaganda you're trying to push with the so vague meaning of 'feminism' without further or deeper exploration on what you're trying to say.

That aside, I do want more strong and empowered female character in anime. It's irritating seeing woman sticking to male lead and being unable to solve her own problem. I feel like people want to see a guy whiteknighting a girl so much but ignore the feeling that exact same scene makes the girl appears useless as fuck. If a strong girl is being inserted, it is going to be a one-dimensional strong. Strong is abusing MC, strong in raw power, but what I want to see as 'strong' is an ability to do things on your own, an ability to solve your own problem. I want an empowered woman in anime. I am not saying there is such a show in anime, but this is for topic sake, and my feeling is I want more and more of this type of female character.

Sep 17, 2017 8:15 PM

#183

Isterio

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Oct 2013

4275

spuukiebuugi said:

as a submissive girl femdoms fucking disgust me, unless it's female on female

It´s just too perfect of a setup!!!!

Sep 17, 2017 8:28 PM

#184

RuneRem

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Jul 2016

4969

TheGreatMizuti said:
When I typed my last post here I thought I'd made a pretty good point but the responses I got proved me wrong, so I googled what they said to see if they were right, turns out they were, and I was wrong, because I didn't research what I was saying before saying it, and that's when I realised what was going on here. People! Do your fucking research before you type!
Feminism isn't about excluding men from society as Nyu seems to think. Google it or better yet, ask any sensible campaigning feminist and they'll happily and painlessly prove you wrong, as three people did a few minutes ago when I wrote something stupid.

Modern feminism is about excluding men.

DrGeroCreation said:
@Nyu Feminism is already in anime. 18if https://myanimelist.net/anime/35248/18if is more feminist than any western show since every episode it focuses on social problems women go through like eating disorders, rejection, mean girl bullying etc.

That isn't feminist.

lady_freyja said:

Piromysl said:
Don't give me that bullshit. Action speaks louder than words. You cannot call feminism movement for "equality" while it addresses trivial issues of one (like man sitting comfortably in half-empty train), while excluding issues of the other.

Every movement has their idiots who speak louder than everyone.
Basing your opinion on a movement on those idiots isn't very a good discernment.

Plus you're reducing a multi-form movement into one narrow view, it's called generalization.

So Feminism is only represented by the good things.

Anyway, Feminism is represented by Governments as well, like Sweden and Canada. Which they have sexist laws, like Affirmative Action, and they turn it off like a switch if it starts helping men, who are now behind women in many areas. Very equal indeed.

holysauron said:

Piromysl said:

Professional question dodging. You must be great feminist.
FYI - facts > feelings

And I exactly know what 3rd wave feminist is about.
It is pro-censorship, pro-segregation, actively fights against father's rights, advocates against presumption of innocence, and perpetuates misinformation against nature of domestic violence and rape.
Feminism hinges on narrative of perpetual female victimhood at the hands of male of the male controlled society, they can't acknowledge systemic inequalities faced by men. They have to ignore or deny the reality of male victims of domestic abuse, high rate of male suicide, difficulties faced by boys and males in education and so on. According to this movement, men are the oppressors, the rapists, the wife-beaters and enemies.
Men can never be the victims, because the any acknowledgement that men don't have it so great may be admittion that an idea, that male controlled society favours men may not be so valid. And maybe women are not perpetual victim of the big bad patriarchy after all.
Feminism needs legitimacy, so it needs a villain to fight against, so they cling to this false narrative about men keeping women down with the system designed to keep the men on the top, so they refuse to acknowledge that men also make up the bottom.
If they would really believe in equality, they wouldn't call themselves "feminists".
They would call themselves "egalitarians". But they don't do that.
Instead they engage in damage control and insist that "feminism is about equality, because it says so in the dictionary" and they demonstrate that they don't care about equality. All they care about is the label.

Please...

Also if you are talking about transgender, you should know it is labelled as a personality disorder (Gender dysphoria). And don't get me wrong, I don't hate them and don't think that they sub-humans, but I'm totally against praising and cheering for it. They people need help and compassion. You may think that you are whoever you want, but you can't force me to respect that.

The second thing is that boys are boys and girls are girls by nature. Nobody is teaching them that. For example, boys are drawed to toy cars, while girls are drawed to dolls. This is not a stereotype, it is natural.

But let's get back to original topic.

I think, only in anime you may find so much strong female and likeable leads.
Definitely much more than in western media video games and TV shows.
But feminist will ALWAYS find something to complain about.
Must preserve victim status...

As a feminist myself I think both of you have good points. I don't know about US laws because I've never been there but where I live there are certain laws which counter misogyny and I applaud that. I also don't think @lady_freyja meant gender dysphoria on its own but something much broader. The fact that women are fine when they wear a skirt or wear make up but when men do it they risk being called a faggot. Really, as a guy that gets on my nerves too!

However the kind of feminist you and Nyu oppose needs to go because it gives us a bad name.

These feminists aren't the minority, they are the majority.

flannan said:

kikyo1hinamora said:
Too many threads related to feminism are being made lately for some reason :/

I'm pretty sure this thread is made as a reaction to another thread nearby. Because Nyu is dumb and wants validation. Screw him.

Piromysl said:

Professional question dodging. You must be great feminist.

I am not obligated to answer your questions. Nor am I qualified to answer your question. I'm not even much of a feminist - I just hate ignorance and dumbness anti-feminists promote.
But most importantly, we both know what the answer is most likely to be - "there are none". So your question is a rhetoric question that doesn't need answering.

Piromysl said:
FYI - facts > feelings

Sure. But where do the laws come into this equations? Laws are very much not facts (I can tell you this as a post-soviet survivor), and they don't even create much feelings.

Piromysl said:
And I exactly know what 3rd wave feminist is about.

Did you learn it all personally, or did you just listen to anti-feminist propaganda by people who want to return people back under the yoke of aristocrats?

Piromysl said:
If they would really believe in equality, they wouldn't call themselves "feminists".
They would call themselves "egalitarians". But they don't do that.
Instead they engage in damage control and insist that "feminism is about equality, because it says so in the dictionary" and they demonstrate that they don't care about equality. All they care about is the label.

There are people who call themselves "egalitarians". They are people who actively pretend everything is alright with the world, and go on to argue feminism is unnecessary. Except it's a lie.
There is no true equality. For example, I've been learning in a moderately prestigious university. We had 1 woman to 5-10 men in the physics department, and 1 man to 5-10 women in the philology department. And it's not like doing physics or philology demands masculinity or femininity in any way.
That was no coincidence, and nobody was surprised by that. And it's not like physics department is popular and smarter boys outcompete girls (in fact, the department is underpopulated, and took pretty much everybody who applied).
Hence, something, somewhere, must be unequal. 3rd wave feminists think it's all about stereotypes - girls get discouraged from doing physics, and encouraged to do "feminine" things like philology instead. And they set out to correct this. Since I think the world would benefit from more physicists and less philologists (what do they do when they aren't teaching language in school?), I approve of their efforts.

How very feminist of you, disregarding women's choice to go into fields they like, you're no different that the Feminists who want to outlaw being a housewife.

Sep 17, 2017 8:32 PM

#185

Offline

May 2015

5397

Hias said:

Kittens-kun said:

Objectified? Wish-fullfillment? Lol, someone's triggered. I mean, they aren't even real.

Awesome, here we go again. I remember you in another thread telling me that feminism is cancer, and then you proceed to use the typical "hyuck hyuck he's been triggered!!"

Do you even read what you're typing?

I'd like for you to explain to me how it's not cancer. It's not even needed in this country, and especially not for fictional 2D women.

Sep 17, 2017 8:45 PM

#186

OrbitChewy

Offline

Mar 2017

1232

--ALEX-- said:
Personally, my stance on Feminism is quite the negative one.

And I lean towards the left.

Modern day Feminism is a complete joke!

It's unecessary in the West and has brought a LOT of problems.

And yes, I understand "Not all" feminists are male-hating lesbians who want female superiority.

Yes, I understand that SOME of them are genuinely good people who really want equality.

The thing is...things are good as they are.

There ARE some privileges that males have over females...YES, this is true!

However, there are also some privileges that females have over males.

How many times do feminists talk about that? They are insanely inconsistent on this issue.

"modern day feminism is a complete joke"

ABSORUCKINGLUTELY MATE

it's making me think that modern day feminists nowadays are either single or lesbian

wish there was a poll I could find somewhere

프로미스 9 ♪

Sep 17, 2017 8:55 PM

#187

RuneRem

Offline

Jul 2016

4969

spuukiebuugi said:

LoneWolf said:
@spuukiebuugi

I actually have a fairly neutral stance on the actual topic. https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1666038&show=100#msg52355178

It was just Clebard's whiteknighting and moral grand standing that I have a problem with. Also when did I say I as an MRA? I actually feel like the movement is futile. The laws are not gonna change no matter how many conventions you have or how many times you point out how biased they are. I respect what they do and its good that they are trying to help individual men, but they just can't change the system. Also are you not doing the exact same shit with your whole "rationalist" crap? Pretty much pretending you're better than everyone else and that you're always right? Just another form of tribalism.

You come across to me as a highly paranoid person, which is how most MRAs are, and you base your perception of women off being seemingly rejected by them. You unironically use the word "cuck". Reevaluating, this all comes across as very r/incel to me, and I don't respect that kind of groupthink either, so needless to say, I reject how bitter and nasty you are either way.

I already stated in another thread that most retarded radfems focus primarily on first world problems. And until they start trying to legislate things that'll somehow corrupt law and order, beyond superficial garbage like mansplaning, I will still obviously campaign against them, but not be concerned that they're making an impact. I have way more concern for SJWs trying to force their "preferred pronouns" and "third gender" garbage into work and academea than I do with radfems at the present time.

They have been legislating for years, Sweden & Canada. In Sweden, Affirmative Action was ruled unconstitutional in Higher Education because it was "discriminating against women", it was doing this to help men get into higher education, as they had fallen behind women because of all the assistance they got from Affirmative Action.

Affirmative Action isn't being used to achieve equality, just flip the balance of power.

Sep 17, 2017 8:55 PM

#188

AnimeotakuWeeb

Offline

Sep 2017

221

Prison School- Do you have a stick up your ass? Or are you one of those dumb-ass Gamergate creepshows?

Nuff said

FEMINISM IS CANCER!!!!!

Sep 17, 2017 8:59 PM

#189

Offline

Jul 2018

564612

LoneWolf said:

Hias said:

She doesn't want to censor your words, she just thinks you're being obnoxious with your overuse of such a cringey word. And to be fair, it has gotten a little out of hand lately.

The implication shes making with her constant protests is that I stop using the word completely right? Is that not censorship? Saying that I can't or shouldn't be using certain words, because she or in this case a small group of people find the term cringey. A good insult is good, because it gets a reaction out of people. Cuck tends to get a really good reaction out of not only the target, but even other unaffected people. Is that not a great insult then? In fact I would say in this current political climate and context it would be hard to find word out there that would get a better reaction. Like Carlin is saying you and her are both giving the word power and meaning.

A lot of people find the word cringey, moreover, it's meaningless because you seem to be oblivious to the original meaning of the word. You can't really think that because a man says that Japan has a few problems, that automatically means that he'd allow his partner to cheat on him. The original meaning of the word "cuck" or "cuckold" is a man who allows his wife to cheat with another man. That has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with a political context. The bastardized insult meaning is not at all connected to the original, thus, it is, in fact, meaningless. I'm not even "offended" by the word. Much as I am actually tired of its overusage, and incorrect overusage at that. It's a retarded word, end of story.
lordy loo make this shit stop

Sep 17, 2017 9:12 PM

#190

Offline

Aug 2007

1816

Kittens-kun said:

I'd like for you to explain to me how it's not cancer. It's not even needed in this country, and especially not for fictional 2D women.

It's vitally needed in the United States, it's needed everywhere on this planet. I feel like most men on here and on the internet misinterpret Feminism as some hardcore SJW, kill all men extremist ideology. Which is far from it.

Feminism is about gender equality for all, it's about the idea of moving past society's ideas of what men and women should dress, act, think etc. It's about moving past gender roles and stereotypes. It's not about some anti-men agenda; there are women like that, but they don't represent the ideology. It's also about challenging our long per-conceived notions of masculinity and how damaging the culture has become.

There are a lot of articles about why it's a good thing. That's just a very basic explanation, it's not even something that I have full knowledge of. But I like what I read and support it. Anime and gaming communities in particular have this idea that feminist are SJW and all want you to die because you're men. Or some even seem to think they're somehow promoting homosexuality and transgenderism in some secret effort to kill off or weaken men.

I think it would be lovely to see this in anime, there already are examples of feminism in anime. But it's just not enough. Why wouldn't you want to see more fictional characters being shown as relatable people with their own personalities, qualities and faults to them? I'd rather have that than walking tropes.

Sep 17, 2017 9:16 PM

#191

SuperRed

Offline

Nov 2012

9736

PeripheralVision said:
To be fair, the problem one calls "objectification" seems to be the phenomenon known as "moe". Moe to me seems to be adding traits to a character that makes them seem absolutely adorable, endearing, or sympathetic, but as characterization, it hardly works other than to create flawless waifus and husbandos than human like characters, similar to how the idol industry works.

At least, that is how it seems to me, though to tell you the truth...I embraced moe. Not a criticism of anyone's political position, but a thought I had for a long time.

To clarify something, Moe is a paternalistic protective feeling the viewer holds towards a character, not how ideal of a character he/she is.

I am don't feel moe towards Clannad girls but I feel moe on Rin from Usagi Drop or Kanna from Dragon Maid.

Sep 17, 2017 9:28 PM

#192

AnimeotakuWeeb

Offline

Sep 2017

221

Hias said:

Kittens-kun said:

I'd like for you to explain to me how it's not cancer. It's not even needed in this country, and especially not for fictional 2D women.

most men on here and on the internet misinterpret Feminism as some hardcore SJW, kill all men extremist ideology. Which is far from it.

It's not about some anti-men agenda; there are women like that, but they don't represent the ideology.

Ha nice straw man argument
#notallfeminsts

AnimeotakuWeebSep 17, 2017 9:36 PM

FEMINISM IS CANCER!!!!!

Sep 17, 2017 9:35 PM

#193

Offline

May 2015

5397

Hias said:

Kittens-kun said:

I'd like for you to explain to me how it's not cancer. It's not even needed in this country, and especially not for fictional 2D women.

It's vitally needed in the United States, it's needed everywhere on this planet. I feel like most men on here and on the internet misinterpret Feminism as some hardcore SJW, kill all men extremist ideology. Which is far from it.

Feminism is about gender equality for all, it's about the idea of moving past society's ideas of what men and women should dress, act, think etc. It's about moving past gender roles and stereotypes. It's not about some anti-men agenda; there are women like that, but they don't represent the ideology. It's also about challenging our long per-conceived notions of masculinity and how damaging the culture has become.

There are a lot of articles about why it's a good thing. That's just a very basic explanation, it's not even something that I have full knowledge of. But I like what I read and support it. Anime and gaming communities in particular have this idea that feminist are SJW and all want you to die because you're men. Or some even seem to think they're somehow promoting homosexuality and transgenderism in some secret effort to kill off or weaken men.

I think it would be lovely to see this in anime, there already are examples of feminism in anime. But it's just not enough. Why wouldn't you want to see more fictional characters being shown as relatable people with their own personalities, qualities and faults to them? I'd rather have that than walking tropes.

Yeah, but the thing is: Women already have equality. Everything you mention is a non-issue. Of course, just like any other form of prejudice, there's exceptions. I'm sure in some back water, low population town, there's some business owners that won't hire women, or will pay women less. I'm sure there are some men who think women are beneath them. But to act like this happens everywhere, or that it's somehow a national issue, is ridiculous. Feminism is needed in places like Iraq, where it's pretty obvious they don't treat their women equally. But in the US? We don't need it. It's not the 1800's anymore.

Plus, we already have plenty of strong, self-confident, respectable, and relatable female characters. Could there be more? Sure. But that doesn't mean a female character NOT being those things means she's being objectified, or that feminism is needed in anime.

Sep 17, 2017 9:53 PM

#194

flannan

Offline

Nov 2009

8715

Corvus8 said:
No, there are very few examples of feminism in anime. I'm not talking about these small niches, except Studio Ghibli. Look at the popular anime titles and most of the female characters are exactly that, fanservice, love interests and just support characters in which the anime could have do without them.
There aren't many, which actually have female characters that have an interesting personality, an own will and thinking, a plot around them etc.
Most female protagonists are in Ecchi/Romance animes.
Give me some examples of good female protagonists of a Shounen/Adventure/Fantasy anime?

Oh, now you're talking anime!
Lina Inverse. Dirty Pair. The duo from Ruin Explorers.
Every magical girl show protagonist.
Strike Witches. Protagonists of Ange Vierge. Protagonists of Coppelion. Flip Flappers.
Shakugan no Shana. Demon King from Maoyuu. Hitsugi no Chaika. Isuca. Junketsu no Maria. Tokyo ESP. Nijuu Mensou no Musume. Toaru Kagaku no Railgun.
And that's not the end.

There is quite a lot of female protagonists doing some kind of action or adventure, you know. Maybe not as many as men in male-oriented media, but a sizable number.

And in many stories of action or adventure that center around male protagonist, there are competent women around him too. Even if they're mostly love interests who only get one arc worth of plot, these days it is acceptable for a love interest to be a political activist or a demon-slaying swordswoman.

Sep 17, 2017 10:05 PM

#195

nDroae

Offline

Oct 2010

2258

Hias said:
Considering so many female anime characters are seen as wish-fullfillment sex objects and objectified considerably, it's not a bad thing to have more feminist views in anime.

Hias said:
It's when women are perceived as trophies or objects of desire it becomes a bit of a problem. And yes, male characters can get the same treatment.

I personally would prefer characters to be more relatable and have character development and not just be walking tropes. But that's usually not the case.

Hias said:
Why wouldn't you want to see more fictional characters being shown as relatable people with their own personalities, qualities and faults to them? I'd rather have that than walking tropes.

I don't want to pretend you meant something you didn't, but it sounds like you're saying that realistically written characters are less susceptible to being used for wish-fulfillment or as objects of desire...? If so, that's not my experience. When an anime girl acts like a real girl I've loved, that's the best. Hope that character gets a happy and satisfying romance... AKA wish-fulfillment. :)

CGDCT Club | List of Upcoming CGDCT | Old School Anime Club
Azur Lane Club | Tenchi Muyo Club

Sep 17, 2017 10:09 PM

#196

Offline

Mar 2013

2900

SuperRed said:

PeripheralVision said:
To be fair, the problem one calls "objectification" seems to be the phenomenon known as "moe". Moe to me seems to be adding traits to a character that makes them seem absolutely adorable, endearing, or sympathetic, but as characterization, it hardly works other than to create flawless waifus and husbandos than human like characters, similar to how the idol industry works.

At least, that is how it seems to me, though to tell you the truth...I embraced moe. Not a criticism of anyone's political position, but a thought I had for a long time.

To clarify something, Moe is a paternalistic protective feeling the viewer holds towards a character, not how ideal of a character he/she is.

I am don't feel moe towards Clannad girls but I feel moe on Rin from Usagi Drop or Kanna from Dragon Maid.

I wouldn't say it is purely paternalistic, but similar by working on the nature of one wishing to protect, whether it be a puppy, a child, or a cute female.

In any case, I was hypothesizing the idea that content creators in Japan tend to one to invoke this feeling on some level to makes characters, male and female, more attractive, despite it relying on some natural reaction, versus a reasoning on why I should care for such characters. Essentially, creators' intent are to invoke such feelings, which functions as a sort of "ideal".

Weird thing is, something we would consider a flaw can still be reasonably endearing, I.E. Myopic vision, clumsiness, bashfulness, etc, as they invoke the desire to protect.

Of course, moe is poorly define, but going off its posited relation to Kawaii culture, it does not seem exclusive to a completely innocent show like Non Non Biyori, but with anime like Konosuba's female cast (Megumin and later Darkness), or Full Metal Panic's Tessa, or the atrocious example of Masamune's Revenge's Aki, which while completely ineffective, I still recognize what they wanted to do by having Aki make cute faces and display vulnerability, such as her eating habits. To sell her as an ideal female character, or rather, attractive.

As for the sexual nature of waifus, Darkness in Konosuba broke her facade during her bath scene, showing a rather bashful nature when confront with the lascivious situation put forth in front of her.

I do not think attempts at moe are 100% effective. Aki sure as hell was not. I am also not implying that moe is purely romantic, or that any well made character, female or male, are subjected to moe trends.

Edit: Huh, now I think about it, "attractive" does seem more fitting than ideal, considering my previous statement on endearing flaws.

PeripheralVisionSep 17, 2017 10:13 PM

Sep 17, 2017 11:04 PM

#197

flannan

Offline

Nov 2009

8715

LoneWolf said:

Hias said:

She doesn't want to censor your words, she just thinks you're being obnoxious with your overuse of such a cringey word. And to be fair, it has gotten a little out of hand lately.

The implication shes making with her constant protests is that I stop using the word completely right? Is that not censorship? Saying that I can't or shouldn't be using certain words, because she or in this case a small group of people find the term cringey. A good insult is good, because it gets a reaction out of people. Cuck tends to get a really good reaction out of not only the target, but even other unaffected people. Is that not a great insult then? In fact I would say in this current political climate and context it would be hard to find word out there that would get a better reaction. Like Carlin is saying you and her are both giving the word power and meaning.

Using insults makes conversation confrontational. You can't actually convince anyone of anything by being confrontational.

--ALEX-- said:
However, the reason anime sexualizes their characters so much is because the male demographic is so much higher than the female one.

1) This is just not true - there are many female anime fans.
2) Self-fulfilling prophesy. If anime is made only for male audience, it's going to have only male audience. Breaking this circle usually requires violence in some form. Screw capitalism.

--ALEX-- said:
Capitalism is a very simple concept.

Unless you can convince people to STOP buying so much anime merchandise involved with sex and then have the people who buy anime which is realistic and relatable at a much higher volume...

Then nothing is going to change!

Lol, believing capitalism works in this day and age. The main problem with the concept of capitalism is, decisions are made by humans, and humans are dumb, ignorant and prejudiced.
If capitalists in anime-making industry knew what they are doing, they would have made only successful anime. But that's impossible.

--ALEX-- said:

Darek said:
When looking through this thread I realize how much smarter than most of you guys I really am... And I, by no means consider myself smart at all, makes me wonder what to think of you. It also proves to me why I hate both sides of the table with such a passion and why I've quit using any other board other than AD, with the exception of occasional post.

If there is one thing, one thing that I owe this topic and you people, it is that you stroke my ego. And you do so by reminding me that no matter how dumb I might be and no matter how low may I fall at times. I will still be a lot more reasonable than you guys. So thank you for being dumb, feminists and anti-feminists alike.

You're welcome?

Topics like this will never go away...at least not until it stops being mainstream, and unfortunately it is very much a huge social issue, especially in the West.

The same West that has granted women so many rights.

God forbid a Western feminist goes to the middle east where they are literally treated like second class citizens...

Oh but, women in the U.S earn $0.77 for every male $1...so clearly we NEED feminism.

What, you don't even understand why this is a topic?
That's simple: in the West, women got so many new rights and expectations. It will take a lot of time and effort until society adjusts to the changes. Feminism is the banner of these efforts.

thewiru said:

--ALEX-- said:
Oh but, women in the U.S earn $0.77 for every male $1...so clearly we NEED feminism.

They actually don't, this came from a biased view on a certain study.
If women received less than men while doing the same job there would be no reason to employ men.

--ALEX-- said:
Men EARN more money because they tend to work longer hours, take fewer days off, don't go on maternity leave, and negotiate their salaries more aggressively than women.

1) So, by "aggressively negotiating", one can earn more money in America? How many people does one have to kill to be the President?
More seriously, I find this issue to be aggravating enough to kill about a million people, until I get my right to employ a lawyer to aggressively negotiate for me.

2) So, men have to work more. This is a bad thing, and feminism needs to rectify this. Outlaw longer hours, get men extra leave comparable to maternity leave, and overall stop exploitation of men.
This will make capitalists stop wanting to hire men over women, so it's in the interests of feminism.

3) But from a political/economical point of view it does not matter how one gender earns more than the other. It gives them more political/economical power, which is undesirable.

Hias said:
I think it would be lovely to see this in anime, there already are examples of feminism in anime. But it's just not enough. Why wouldn't you want to see more fictional characters being shown as relatable people with their own personalities, qualities and faults to them? I'd rather have that than walking tropes.

I kinda want people to stop stereotyping anime characters as "walking tropes". Just because a girl is a tsundere, doesn't mean she doesn't have any other things in her life. Shana, Louise and Taiga are very different people despite their similarities.

Kittens-kun said:
Yeah, but the thing is: Women already have equality. Everything you mention is a non-issue. Of course, just like any other form of prejudice, there's exceptions. I'm sure in some back water, low population town, there's some business owners that won't hire women, or will pay women less. I'm sure there are some men who think women are beneath them. But to act like this happens everywhere, or that it's somehow a national issue, is ridiculous. Feminism is needed in places like Iraq, where it's pretty obvious they don't treat their women equally. But in the US? We don't need it. It's not the 1800's anymore.

As long as people like SinOfSlothKing exist and are allowed to go unpunished, feminism needs to exist too.

nDroae said:

Hias said:
Considering so many female anime characters are seen as wish-fullfillment sex objects and objectified considerably, it's not a bad thing to have more feminist views in anime.

Hias said:
It's when women are perceived as trophies or objects of desire it becomes a bit of a problem. And yes, male characters can get the same treatment.

I personally would prefer characters to be more relatable and have character development and not just be walking tropes. But that's usually not the case.

Hias said:
Why wouldn't you want to see more fictional characters being shown as relatable people with their own personalities, qualities and faults to them? I'd rather have that than walking tropes.

I don't want to pretend you meant something you didn't, but it sounds like you're saying that realistically written characters are less susceptible to being used for wish-fulfillment or as objects of desire...? If so, that's not my experience. When an anime girl acts like a real girl I've loved, that's the best. Hope that character gets a happy and satisfying romance... AKA wish-fulfillment. :)

Very much true.

_LapisLazuli said:
Feminism won't solve any of those problems. It's like saying that "human rights" will solve "murder" crimes. "Equal Income" will solve "theft".

Isn't the Rape rate is lower in Japan than the US?

1) Differences between the rich and the poor are actually a better predictor of crime (including theft) than overall wealth. Just look at USA - they're pretty wealthy overall, but they have plenty of crime.
2) We don't know if rape rate is lower in Japan, because we can assume rape is less frequently reported in Japan than in the USA. And it's not like every rape is reported in USA either. Because both countries need feminism.

Pickled_Chips said:
Lol...
When you make one answer use the word "infest" and the other use "respect", what way are people suppose to vote? You should've at least made the poll neutral in the way it was written.

Nyu is well-known to not be neutral on this subject.

Nyu said:
How very feminist of you, disregarding women's choice to go into fields they like, you're no different that the Feminists who want to outlaw being a housewife.

I told you I'm not much of a feminist, right?
I am a technocrat, and I want all people to go into fields that advance progress, leaving child care, paper-pushing, industry, singing, service and sales to robots.

Sep 17, 2017 11:12 PM

#198